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[SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

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On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 1:43 PM, StepStark said:

One more thing about this - you're forgetting that Littlefinger first offered the alliance to Ned but Ned refused, and only then Littlefinger turned to Cersei. So was it some Littlefinger's plan that realized? Of course not, he was adapting his moves to the situation and to other players' moves. That's what he's doing all the time.

Littlefinger offered an alliance but was always going to betray Ned.  That was obvious even from my first reading 20 years ago.  The last thing the likes of Littlefinger wants is someone like a Stannis or Eddard ruling the realm.  It's why he set off the war of the Five Kings in the first place.

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On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 1:55 PM, StepStark said:

This is also not correct because D&D started to diverge long before they ran out of books. Show lovers keep forgetting Talisa for example, because there is no reason for that change except that D&D liked it better than they liked the version from the books.

Or what about Cersei's infamous firstborn who died an infant? That's episode two! Not only that they had some reason to include it, but also it only created logical problems later on, with the prophecy.

There are many examples like these two from early seasons of the show, which prove that D&D didn't have to go off the books. They chose to do so. That fact and the end result speak a lot about their competence and sincerity.

If GRRM's closure looks anything like what happened in the show in the last 2-3 seasons, he better not finish the books because he'd just ruin the story for good. It's highly unlikely that his closure is so stupid because nothing in the books so far even resembles the absurdity of the show, but if that sadly is the case then better leave it unfinished than publishing all that nonsense D&D put in the show.

That's why I said it was a "fairly" faithful adaptation.  No adaptation was going to be 100% faithful.  I also think it is a good thing when a show attempts to change things a little.  Few people want something to be exactly the same as the book they've read.  They still want to be kept on their toes.  As for Talisa, she wasn't a bad change and it certainly heightened the impact of the Red Wedding past what it was even in the books.  Ultimately the change was minor to the overall tale.

Cersei's infant was clearly a clumsy bread trail for viewers.  I agree it wasn't required because their incest is discovered so early on in the show anyway.

I think you're probably right about GRRM and the books.  As the quality of storytelling has declined so massively in AFFC and ADWD, it probably is best if it goes unfinished.  Which it almost certainly will anyway.

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19 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

  As for Talisa, she wasn't a bad change and it certainly heightened the impact of the Red Wedding past what it was even in the books.  Ultimately the change was minor to the overall tale.

No, it made pointless shift in themes, it made Robb incredibly stupider, it was terribly predicatble dumb adaptation move (forcing romance where it doesn´t belong) and it was horibly written anyway.

Edited by Rhodan

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38 minutes ago, Rhodan said:

No, it made pointless shift in themes, it made Robb incredibly stupider, it was terribly predicatble dumb adaptation move (forcing romance where it doesn´t belong) and it was horibly written anyway.

To this day I still don't understand why she was from Volantis. 

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8 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

To this day I still don't understand why she was from Volantis. 

I guess they wanted exotic foreigner with worldviews that might be closer to modern audience.

 

BTW, other heavily modified storyline in Season 2 - Dany in Qarth - was also kinda sore to watch and think about. And yes, I know source material wasn´t very adaptable in this case. It is just funny to me  that this was the best they came up with.    

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4 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

I think you're probably right about GRRM and the books.  As the quality of storytelling has declined so massively in AFFC and ADWD, it probably is best if it goes unfinished.  Which it almost certainly will anyway.

You're twisting my words. What I said is that ASOIAF is best left unfinished if the remaining books even resemble what happened in the show. I have no problem if the remaining books are similar to AFFC and ADWD.

There is no decline in the quality of storytelling, AFFC and ADWD are not objectively worse than the first three books, but they obviously don't deliver any closure and some readers are understandably impatient to get closures so they attack AFFC and ADWD, but objectively nothing is wrong with those two books. If you really read ASOIAF as early as you say then you definitely remember the same reaction to ACOK which was initially seen as a letdown for same reasons and back then some readers also criticized GRRM for unnecessarily prolonging the story and adding a lot of fat, but as soon as ASOS came out it became obvious that ACOK was simply a transition book and a very good one at that.

What would definitely be decline is if any of the nonsense from the show ends up in the remaining books.

4 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Littlefinger offered an alliance but was always going to betray Ned.  That was obvious even from my first reading 20 years ago.  The last thing the likes of Littlefinger wants is someone like a Stannis or Eddard ruling the realm.  It's why he set off the war of the Five Kings in the first place.

Just like Littlefinger eventually betrayed Cersei. He'd betray anyone. But that's not what we discussed. We discussed his plans. "I'll first befriend and then betray anyone" isn't a plan. He didn't plan for Cersei to become the ruler of 7K, but when Ned refused his offer he adapted and acted.

4 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

That's why I said it was a "fairly" faithful adaptation.  No adaptation was going to be 100% faithful.

There is a huge difference between adaptation that tried to be faithful but can't be 100% faithful because of different medium or some other objective reason, and this "adaptation" we're discussing here. GOT never was a "fairly faithful" adaptation because right from the start D&D were changing things just because they wanted and for no good reason. Call it what you want but that is not a faithful adaptation, not even a fairly faithful adaptation.

5 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Few people want something to be exactly the same as the book they've read.  They still want to be kept on their toes.

Sorry to say but this is a silly argument. You're not talking about adaptation but about fan fiction. Adaptation isn't supposed to be a different version of the original story. That's fan fiction, not adaptation. And please, I'm hearing about this "people want to be surprised" argument for years but it's just ridiculous. If you want to be surprised by adaptation I'm afraid you got the entire concept of reading/watching wrong. If you want to be surprised then you read or watch something new.

Adaptation is something else. Adapting a story means translating it to a new form as faithfully as possible, and not changing it for the sake of shocking the audience.

5 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

As for Talisa, she wasn't a bad change and it certainly heightened the impact of the Red Wedding past what it was even in the books.  Ultimately the change was minor to the overall tale.

As other people already said, Talisa was a terrible change. She didn't make any sense to begin with and she was written terribly. And no, she didn't heightened the impact of the Red Wedding, unless you think that Robb as romantic moron is more compelling than Robb as king who desperately wants to reclaim his home which he lost because of his own mistake, and also unless you think that Cat wasn't really important character for that particular storyline (because when Talisa appeared Cat was relegated to secondary character in the show).

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13 hours ago, Rhodan said:

No, it made pointless shift in themes, it made Robb incredibly stupider, it was terribly predicatble dumb adaptation move (forcing romance where it doesn´t belong) and it was horibly written anyway.

Yeah,  it made Robb stupider. In the books Ned would understand Robb's actions, but in show he would be appalled.

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