[SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

[Dragon in the North]

5 hours ago, Rhodan said:

Marrying Jeyne was stupid, but it was honor-based decision without traditional romance. Marrying Talisa existed becouse stupid adaptational romance and made Robb consciously s*** on the vows with huge disrespect.  

That has to do with the morality of the decision, not the intelligence of it. Marrying Jeyne was morally the right thing to do, but marrying the daughter of his enemy’s bannermen carried the risk of the Westerlings actively working against him. This makes the marriage in the books, though more moral than the show, a little stupider.

[Dragon in the North]

3 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 Also, they didn't quite end the same, did they? Jeyne's alive, and she may be pregnant.

I was speaking from Robb’s POV. Both ended with his death.

[Rhodan]

13 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

That has to do with the morality of the decision, not the intelligence of it. Marrying Jeyne was morally the right thing to do, but marrying the daughter of his enemy’s bannermen carried the risk of the Westerlings actively working against him. This makes the marriage in the books, though more moral than the show, a little stupider.

OK, I agree that I was maybe splitting the hair a little. I still kinda think that Book!Robb might have kinda had a more hope that his deed will be understood than that of his show counterpart and that this horndog characterization could be called idiotic in general.

[Dragon in the North]

2 hours ago, Rhodan said:

OK, I agree that I was maybe splitting the hair a little. I still kinda think that Book!Robb might have kinda had a more hope that his deed will be understood than that of his show counterpart and that this horndog characterization could be called idiotic in general.

Yes, I can respect if you believe the character deviation to be stupid, but as for the characters themselves, I don’t see one as significantly stupider than the other.

[Katerine459]

On 6/6/2018 at 7:19 AM, LadyNoOne said:

Hi, I'm new here.  I like the HBO series.  I enjoy that it is different from the books because I cannot then know exactly what is going to happen.  There are small and large differences, but I do value both the HBO version and the books.

Cheers!

First, welcome.

I feel like I need to respond to this, because you quoted my post, but I'm afraid you missed my main point. The issue with the show is not that it's different than the books. The issue with the show is that the show writers do not care about internal logic, consistent worldbuilding, and consistent character-building, which is a crime against a series that's so popular precisely because it pays meticulous attention to those things.

Let me use an example from the show that I feel is actually really good: the battle/massacre in S7:E4. I consider this to be the one really good part of S7. NOT because of the spectacle. The spectacle is incidental... it certainly didn't hurt, but it's not the reason it was good. It was good because the in-universe reason for the battle made more sense than none at all, because it was well built-up, because it didn't break any worldbuilding (that I'm aware of), because we as viewers felt a very real investment in the battle because there were people on both sides that we were rooting for, and because it did not leave us wondering why the characters were being so uncharacteristically stupid. So that battle was a really good scene. The entire series should have writing like that. But it doesn't.

Most of the series now consists of the writers ignoring established characterization in order to split the world into nice neat lines of good and bad, where all the good people get along, and the bad people twirl mustaches. It consists of the writers ignoring established characterization to make them further the plot. It consists of a total disregard for consistent worldbuilding. It consists of plot armor, all over the place.

It doesn't need to be the same as the books. In fact, it's probably a good thing that it isn't. But it should at least care about adhering to the things that made the series so popular in the first place. Lots and lots and lots of fantasy series feature dragons. That's not why ASOIAF stands out. It stands out for its complex characterizations, organic plot-building, and extremely rich and consistent world. The show doesn't need to be the same as the books. But the writers should at least try to care about the same general things that GRRM clearly cares about.

[LadyNoOne]

1 hour ago, Katerine459 said:

First, welcome.

I feel like I need to respond to this, because you quoted my post, but I'm afraid you missed my main point. The issue with the show is not that it's different than the books. The issue with the show is that the show writers do not care about internal logic, consistent worldbuilding, and consistent character-building, which is a crime against a series that's so popular precisely because it pays meticulous attention to those things.

Let me use an example from the show that I feel is actually really good: the battle/massacre in S7:E4. I consider this to be the one really good part of S7. NOT because of the spectacle. The spectacle is incidental... it certainly didn't hurt, but it's not the reason it was good. It was good because the in-universe reason for the battle made more sense than none at all, because it was well built-up, because it didn't break any worldbuilding (that I'm aware of), because we as viewers felt a very real investment in the battle because there were people on both sides that we were rooting for, and because it did not leave us wondering why the characters were being so uncharacteristically stupid. So that battle was a really good scene. The entire series should have writing like that. But it doesn't.

Most of the series now consists of the writers ignoring established characterization in order to split the world into nice neat lines of good and bad, where all the good people get along, and the bad people twirl mustaches. It consists of the writers ignoring established characterization to make them further the plot. It consists of a total disregard for consistent worldbuilding. It consists of plot armor, all over the place.

It doesn't need to be the same as the books. In fact, it's probably a good thing that it isn't. But it should at least care about adhering to the things that made the series so popular in the first place. Lots and lots and lots of fantasy series feature dragons. That's not why ASOIAF stands out. It stands out for its complex characterizations, organic plot-building, and extremely rich and consistent world. The show doesn't need to be the same as the books. But the writers should at least try to care about the same general things that GRRM clearly cares about.

Thank you for welcoming me @Katherine459!  I understand your point now, and I did read an article before S7 was released that JRRM's opinions were ignored.  In fact, I understood that he was quite miffed about all of that.

I suppose I agree with you on the HBO failures.  Realistically, though, 10 hours to cover so much plot is not to be expected compared to the writings. 

In any case, I am glad we can both agree that HBO has done some justice, and that justice waxes and wains.

Cheers!

[Hodor's Dragon]

A couple of things:

I agree that the show went badly off the rails in season 5 in terms of believability and character consistence/rational action.  And yes, much fan service, so fan-servicy at times that it's outright laughable.

But at the same time, even though many of the plot twists didn't make sense, there were a lot of them. The pace was fast, the action spectacular. As has been noted in this thread, D&D may be absolute crap at writing a believable, long story, but OTOH all the technical aspects of production have always been stellar in this show, and with the ever-increasing budget it has just become more and more so. Season 7 was the most spectacular the show has been, and probably the most spectacular TV shows ever put on (and I say probably only because I'm not an expert in TV shows, as I can't imagine that kind of spectacle having been put on by any other show). 

The battle scenes, in particular, are amazing, and IMO there are multiple battle scenes that are significant competitors for best battle scenes in film history. Nothing but the highest praise for the choreography, music, timing and photography of the Battle of the Bastard and the gold train battle, whatever that one is called, and generally all the battle scenes have become increasingly more spectacular.

Put it all together, and I quite enjoyed most of Season 7 despite the constant illogic. And as to the unbelievable/inconsistent/irrational aspect of the show, while I sure wish that the show was following GRRM instead of leading, I have recently come around to being soothed by all the stupid crap that makes no sense, and I'll tell you why.

When I first realized, coming into season 5, that the show was definitely going to depart almost completely from the novels, I became very sad - and with a tinge of anger - that the greatest fantasy series ever written was going to get the last 2(-ish) novels spoiled by a frickin' TV show. But now that I've watched 3 season of stupidity from the TV show, however, I AM VERY MUCH CHEERED! :-)

There is NO WAY UNDER THE SUN that GRRM is going to write all this stupid crap into the last novels. IF--and it's a big if--he ever finishes them, I will read the new books with the expectation that only a few of the TV show things are actually going to happen, and the great majority of the books will be quite different from what we've seen.

Now come on, George, finish the damned thing!

p.s. Out of all the stupid crap they've done, the one that got on my nerves the most was having Littlefinger get completely shanghai'd in the trial scene. He had no idea what was coming, no backup plan, and no defense but to beg ineffectively for his life. After having read 5 novels of Littlefinger, THERE IS NO WAY UNDER THE SUN that GRRM is going to have him die so easily and so anti-climactically. Like Varys and Tyrion, the 1st word that comes to mind with Littlefinger is "survivor." Littlefinger ALWAYS has a backup plan; after all he has done to the Starks in the series, he's not about to go walking into their castle without a backup escape plan and a few aces in the hole. Except on this TV show.

 

[Kandrax]

52 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

so anti-climactically. 

Are you sure? I don't think that Tywin had climatic death.

[Rhodan]

15 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Are you sure? I don't think that Tywin had climatic death.

I would say he had, it was pretty climactic given the context.

[The Golden Wolf]

On 6/20/2018 at 8:55 AM, Rhodan said:

I would say he had, it was pretty climactic given the context.

Thing is though, by taking out the reveal of Tysha not being a whore as Tyrion was made to believe they missed the added weight of Tyrion finding Shae, a known whore, in Tywin's bed showcasing his father's hypocrisy and further enraging him. Plus it is the reveal of Tysha that brings about such a deep murderous rage within Tyrion that causes him to ascend the passegeway up to the Hand's Tower to confront his father. 

Taking the Tysha reveal out simultaneously whitewashes the Lannisters (Jaime and Tywin) involved in her brutal gangraping and also deprives Tyrion of any meaningful motivation for wanting to destroy his family. which leads to the Tyrion who basically gives the Lannisters their early victories in S7

[Mwm]

Oh jeez, 

they don’t allow posts to be long enough for a rant of that magnitude.

 

[Rhodan]

15 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Thing is though, by taking out the reveal of Tysha not being a whore as Tyrion was made to believe they missed the added weight of Tyrion finding Shae, a known whore, in Tywin's bed showcasing his father's hypocrisy and further enraging him. Plus it is the reveal of Tysha that brings about such a deep murderous rage within Tyrion that causes him to ascend the passegeway up to the Hand's Tower to confront his father. 

Taking the Tysha reveal out simultaneously whitewashes the Lannisters (Jaime and Tywin) involved in her brutal gangraping and also deprives Tyrion of any meaningful motivation for wanting to destroy his family. which leads to the Tyrion who basically gives the Lannisters their early victories in S7

We were talking about the books.

[The Golden Wolf]

9 hours ago, Rhodan said:

We were talking about the books.

Oh...My bad...I am still upset they took the Tysha is not a whore reveal out of the show.

Yeah in the books it was perfect.

[Ser Gareth]

6 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Oh...My bad...I am still upset they took the Tysha is not a whore reveal out of the show.

Yeah in the books it was perfect.

Show or books, I thought it was a really poor forced plot device.

Tyrion is meant to be smart and emotional.  So once his emotions have subsided his logic would have kicked in and the whole situation made no sense whatsoever.

But then neither did Tyrion watching half the barracks rape her, whilst presumably she was protesting her innocence.  And if she was protesting her innocence then retrospectively Tyrion would have realised that a whore wouldn't have unless she has genuinely fallen in love with him and ran off with him to live like a peasant.  And if that had been the case then she would have most likely begged for forgiveness and not protested innocence.

So basically the whole premise was absurd to begin with.  And don't get me started on Tyrion apparently managing to get aroused having seen the woman he supposedly love get gangraped and then have a go himself afterwards.  It's a ridiculous plot point.

[Rhodan]

17 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Show or books, I thought it was a really poor forced plot device.

Tyrion is meant to be smart and emotional.  So once his emotions have subsided his logic would have kicked in and the whole situation made no sense whatsoever.

But then neither did Tyrion watching half the barracks rape her, whilst presumably she was protesting her innocence.  And if she was protesting her innocence then retrospectively Tyrion would have realised that a whore wouldn't have unless she has genuinely fallen in love with him and ran off with him to live like a peasant.  And if that had been the case then she would have most likely begged for forgiveness and not protested innocence.

So basically the whole premise was absurd to begin with.  And don't get me started on Tyrion apparently managing to get aroused having seen the woman he supposedly love get gangraped and then have a go himself afterwards.  It's a ridiculous plot point.

As far as the first part goes... Did she even know what Jaime and Tywin claimed about her?

[Ser Gareth]

4 hours ago, Rhodan said:

As far as the first part goes... Did she even know what Jaime and Tywin claimed about her?

In the show I can't remember, in the books yes.  Hence the whole thing about money spilling from her hands.

[StepStark]

On 6/23/2018 at 6:45 PM, Ser Gareth said:

Show or books, I thought it was a really poor forced plot device.

Tyrion is meant to be smart and emotional.  So once his emotions have subsided his logic would have kicked in and the whole situation made no sense whatsoever.

But then neither did Tyrion watching half the barracks rape her, whilst presumably she was protesting her innocence.  And if she was protesting her innocence then retrospectively Tyrion would have realised that a whore wouldn't have unless she has genuinely fallen in love with him and ran off with him to live like a peasant.  And if that had been the case then she would have most likely begged for forgiveness and not protested innocence.

So basically the whole premise was absurd to begin with.  And don't get me started on Tyrion apparently managing to get aroused having seen the woman he supposedly love get gangraped and then have a go himself afterwards.  It's a ridiculous plot point.

This is not accurate at all. In the books, Tyrion was told that she was a whore who was paid to have sex with him but then tried to take advantage of his naivety and from that perspective he didn't have any reason to find her protests illogical. He had doubts in the sense that he felt the gang-rape of Tysha was wrong but he didn't have reason to be suspicious about the story Tywin and Jaime sold to him. And that is why he was so furious when Jaime revealed the truth, because it's pretty obvious that Jaime's word was the main reason Tyrion even bought the story in the first place.

And about Tyrion raping her, well, Tyrion was led to believe that she brought embarrassment to him and that because of that he brought embarrassment to his family. It's not unimaginable that he got aroused with that mindset. I think hate-fuck is the expression. That's why the truth Jaime revealed hit even harder.

So yes, the story in the books make perfect sense. By the way, what you did here is pure nitpicking. George left out many details about the incident because that's how storytelling works, especially if it's about something that happened 10 years ago. Sometimes readers have to fill in the blanks and in this case it's really not that hard to do that. The show is entirely different because their logical gaps are as big as Harrenhall, but the books always give you enough so you can create your own picture in your head.

[Angel Eyes]

I’ll just start with the Season 7 ones for me.

Team Dany’s strategy was messed up. I’d say land at Oldtown (which has symbolism since Aegon the Conqueror was crowned there), Olenna raises her banners, Dany picks up Jorah, freshly cured by Sam. The

The Winterfell plot line. Good gods. 

• Sansa not training. Jon says everyone 10 and up to 60 should train in arms, Sansa’s no exception. If she’s in any sort of leadership position, even amongst refugees, she’s going to have to fight.
• Bran being extra numb-skulled. He can see everything, can’t he just tell Sansa what he knows or how to beat the White Walkers? And he’s a dick to Sansa and Meera.
• Arya threatening Sansa. A girl has shitty memory, didn’t she bloody see Sansa screaming for them to stop Joffrey?
• Sansa finding hard evidence on Littlefinger’s crimes. In the end, Littlefinger’s downfall was Bran’s victory, not Sansa’s. And if she stands in judgement as her father did, it’s her responsibility to kill Littlefinger personally, not hand it off to another. She’s no better than Joffrey or Cersei with handing off the job.

”Robert’s Rebellion was built on a lie”. That makes Bran a liar.

Jon named Aegon makes Rhaegar look like a jerk because he’s replacing his son with Elia Martell with his son with Lyanna.

[The Golden Wolf]

4 hours ago, StepStark said:

This is not accurate at all. In the books, Tyrion was told that she was a whore who was paid to have sex with him but then tried to take advantage of his naivety and from that perspective he didn't have any reason to find her protests illogical. He had doubts in the sense that he felt the gang-rape of Tysha was wrong but he didn't have reason to be suspicious about the story Tywin and Jaime sold to him. And that is why he was so furious when Jaime revealed the truth, because it's pretty obvious that Jaime's word was the main reason Tyrion even bought the story in the first place.

And about Tyrion raping her, well, Tyrion was led to believe that she brought embarrassment to him and that because of that he brought embarrassment to his family. It's not unimaginable that he got aroused with that mindset. I think hate-fuck is the expression. That's why the truth Jaime revealed hit even harder.

So yes, the story in the books make perfect sense. By the way, what you did here is pure nitpicking. George left out many details about the incident because that's how storytelling works, especially if it's about something that happened 10 years ago. Sometimes readers have to fill in the blanks and in this case it's really not that hard to do that. The show is entirely different because their logical gaps are as big as Harrenhall, but the books always give you enough so you can create your own picture in your head.

Also one cannot forget that the whole thing is used to show just how much control he has over his entire family. He gets Jaime to lie to the brother who loves him and views him as his hero, therefore destroying Tyrion's first true love and when the lie is revealed destroying their relationship as well. He gets Tyrion to add to the defilement and shame of the one woman who truly loved him (not counting his Aunt) and makes him forever doubt whether he can ever be truly loved. This is a deep held trauma for Tyrion added on to all the other abuse he has suffered throughout his life just because he wasn't a perfect Lannister Lion like Jaime and Cersie and to find out it is all a lie...well if it was me, I too would want to kill the muthafugga who put me through it even if he was my own father. 

Book!Tywin is not Show!Tywin who came off as a firm but kind grandfather just looking after his family. Book!Tywin is a monster who murpillapes other regions just for slighting his family's name. 

[Dragon in the North]

I thought the Tysha reveal was an interesting plot point in the books, but the show worked fine without it. Tyrion killing Tywin was a great scene in both medium.