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Katerine459

[SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

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On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 5:17 PM, StepStark said:

This is not accurate at all. In the books, Tyrion was told that she was a whore who was paid to have sex with him but then tried to take advantage of his naivety and from that perspective he didn't have any reason to find her protests illogical. He had doubts in the sense that he felt the gang-rape of Tysha was wrong but he didn't have reason to be suspicious about the story Tywin and Jaime sold to him. And that is why he was so furious when Jaime revealed the truth, because it's pretty obvious that Jaime's word was the main reason Tyrion even bought the story in the first place.

And about Tyrion raping her, well, Tyrion was led to believe that she brought embarrassment to him and that because of that he brought embarrassment to his family. It's not unimaginable that he got aroused with that mindset. I think hate-fuck is the expression. That's why the truth Jaime revealed hit even harder.

So yes, the story in the books make perfect sense. By the way, what you did here is pure nitpicking. George left out many details about the incident because that's how storytelling works, especially if it's about something that happened 10 years ago. Sometimes readers have to fill in the blanks and in this case it's really not that hard to do that. The show is entirely different because their logical gaps are as big as Harrenhall, but the books always give you enough so you can create your own picture in your head.

The part in bold made me chuckle.  Pretty much a get out clause for any poor writing.

And you missed my point.  My point was I doubt Tysha would have been silent whilst she was being gangraped.  I am pretty sure that she would have protested either before, during or after it happened.  And that protestation of innocence would have made anyone with half a brain (and Tyrion is meant to be smart) reflect back over the years and realise something simply didn't add up.

As for hate fucking.  I have no words really.  Although Tyrion clearly has a high sex drive there has been little to suggest he is a sexual deviant, who would happily put his cock where X amount of men had just been.  Let alone put his cock in a woman he apparently was in love with and who by this time would have presumably been deeply emotionally distressed.

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On 6/7/2018 at 1:14 PM, Dragon in the North said:

That has to do with the morality of the decision, not the intelligence of it. Marrying Jeyne was morally the right thing to do, but marrying the daughter of his enemy’s bannermen carried the risk of the Westerlings actively working against him. This makes the marriage in the books, though more moral than the show, a little stupider.

I would go for marrying either was stupid from a war point of view.  However, D&D got some licence there and created a character hard to resist for a young man; not just beautiful, exotic and noble born but a compassionate doctor/nurse.  In fairness we are to see more about Jeyne but I doubt she can match her.   They really created a woman that was very hard for Robb to resist and not just because of one night.  Again, no idea yet what Jeyne is, or whether under a spell by her mother or not (and it shall be interesting to read) but Talisha really is pretty much the dream...

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40 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

The part in bold made me chuckle.  Pretty much a get out clause for any poor writing.

And you missed my point.  My point was I doubt Tysha would have been silent whilst she was being gangraped.  I am pretty sure that she would have protested either before, during or after it happened.  And that protestation of innocence would have made anyone with half a brain (and Tyrion is meant to be smart) reflect back over the years and realise something simply didn't add up.

As for hate fucking.  I have no words really.  Although Tyrion clearly has a high sex drive there has been little to suggest he is a sexual deviant, who would happily put his cock where X amount of men had just been.  Let alone put his cock in a woman he apparently was in love with and who by this time would have presumably been deeply emotionally distressed.

Okay this is a bit of a sore subject to me because, to answer another poster years ago, I digged out a lot of research on "involuntary erection."  I am not saying that Tyrion did not feel desire, despite it all, or desire for revenge on her, but the mechanism is much more simple and let's think of it:  If Tywin had thought that was pleasurable for Tyrion (to be forced - and yes it can be forced on a man- to rape her last) why would he, Tywin, had commanded it at all???

As for her protesting, she was problably gone past that at that point.  Tywin made them both victims very clearly, her more so, of course, but him too and that was the whole idea.  Yet to see otherwise when Lord Tywin had organised sex shennanighans for any of his children lol

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Wasn't Tyrion, like, 14 when the whole thing with Tysha happened? [Check that... I just looked it up... he was 13Younger than what I originally thought!]

Tyrion's story makes perfect sense in the books. He was an adolescent who idolized his older brother. Jaime was the only member of Tyrion's immediate family who didn't openly despise him, even showed some affection for him, and who hadn't called Tyrion a mother-murdering monster for literally Tyrion's entire life.

He believe Jaime when Jaime said he'd set up the whole thing with Tysha because he idolized Jaime, because Tysha said she loved him and he didn't believe he was lovable, and because he was 14[13]. Tyrion is very smart, true, but how world-wise are you, really, at 14[13]? Who are you more likely to believe, the brother you've known your entire life or the girl you've known for a couple months? Especially when one of their stories fits with what you've been told your entire life (that you're unlovable), and the other person's story directly contradicts that (that you are lovable)?

So he wound up believing Jaime, and letting Tysha be gang-raped (though he didn't understand it was rape at the time). Then, years later, after saving the city only to be shunted aside and forgotten by most, being forced to marry a child, being blamed by the people for Joffrey's monstrous actions, being put on trial for his life by his father and accused by his sister, having the woman he'd fallen in love with testify against him using lies mixed with truths that only she knew about (and I will never believe that book-Shae didn't choose to do that of her own free will), being found guilty and condemned to death... and THEN Jaime... arguably the one person in the world that Tyrion still trusted at all... tells him that he'd lied all those years ago, and Tysha really did love him, which meant that Tyrion had let her be gang-raped and then participated himself. He then finds the woman he loves in his father's bed (after his father had spent years openly despising Tyrion for his propensity for whores). And he snaps.

What about this is unbelievable? I thought it was perfectly set up, as well as Tyrion's severe depression and PTSD in ADWD. It actually shows a great care for character development, to follow through with everything Tyrion had been through with the psychological effects of being through those things, even though those psychological effects made him less likable to many.

I have mixed feelings about the show's treatment of him. On the one hand, I really, really like Tyrion. He's one of my favorite characters. And I love Peter Dinklage playing him, and it would be kind of hard to watch him become kind of unlikable, as he became in the books, after all this. It's also kind of hard, without access to his inner thoughts, to understand where it's coming from... the flashbacks and self-loathing that arose from... well, from his entire life, but especially from the events of ASOS, and most especially from the act of killing his father. Even with those inner thoughts, it was often hard for many to like him in ADWD.

On the other hand... I really, really respect GRRM for not shying away from what Tyrion, as a human being who'd been through a very bad, love-starved, betrayal-filled life, would go through, and... I don't exactly resent D&D for not following through with it in their version -- at least, not in isolation. That is, if this were the only example of D&D not following through with character motivation and character development and character consistency (or showing any sign of caring about any of those things), I'd be more than fine with it. But it's not. Not by a long shot.

Edited by Katerine459

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Just reread the recent posts, and realized that the main "believe-ability" issue in the books appears to be the idea that Tysha wouldn't have said anything.

I actually think it would have been less believable if Tysha did say anything... and here's why:

We don't know much about Tysha's character, but we do know that she was a peasant girl, somewhere around Tyrion's age (so somewhere between 12 and 14 at the time), and she was nice. Presumably, she lived in the lands owned by Tywin Lannister. And Tyrion had saved her from some would-be rapists.

So now, put yourself in her shoes (TW: I'm about to describe some emotions surrounding a gang rape using the second person POV). You're a simple peasant girl, and the son of your liege lord(!!!) saves you from some would-be rapists. To your eyes, he seems like a fairy-tale, with the little exception of being a dwarf, being your age, and being far from handsome, but then, you're a peasant. And he clearly likes you, so you're polite and then nice to him, and then you find out that he's actually kind of sweet (as Tyrion at that age would definitely have been - we see traces of that even now, with the way he often treats Penny), and he's funny and smart... and yes, he's rich. You're a product of your times, which means you're constantly aware of the class system you live in. You become infatuated, and he's clearly in love with you, which is extremely flattering, and then he asks you to marry him.

A few weeks pass, and you think this is actually going to work. But then (and here's where I'm drifting into a bit of speculation, as we don't know the exact circumstances from Tysha's point of view, but regardless of how it happened at first, the conclusion is the same), some knights come to your door and take you into custody. And they take you before Lord Tywin Lannister. The Lord Tywin Lannister. Your liege lord. And a man who is famous throughout Westeros for his history of wiping out the entire families of people who displease him -- to the point where there's a freaking song about it -- and you can tell at a glance that you have somehow seriously displeased him. There are seemingly hundreds of men in the room. You are terrified. He calls you the Westeros equivalent of a golddigger, and maybe a part of you thinks it's maybe true (you are, after all, still just a child yourself, and rather impressionable). He says that if you want the gold so much that you're willing to sell yourself for it, you will have your wish, and you wonder what that means... and the seemingly hundreds of men start to take off their clothes. Some of them are maybe even chuckling. And you realize what's about to happen.

Tyrion comes in now, with his older brother, and you look at him pleadingly... and a stranger glares back at you. He's looking at you like you betrayed him. And you wonder if maybe it's true. Maybe you weren't as much in love with him as you thought... maybe it really was the money and the lifestyle that appealed to you. You also can't help but pick up on the vast difference in power between Tyrion and Tywin, and you realize that even if Tyrion would come to your defense, he couldn't. But he wouldn't, because whatever he's been told, he's no longer seeing you as a human being who doesn't want what's about to happen. You have absolutely no friends in this room. You are completely alone.

So, no. No, you're not going to say anything. Even if you were physically capable of saying anything at this point (which you're not, because by now, your mind has taken its only defense and turtled up inside itself, leaving you standing there mute and staring at nothing), what would be the point? Other than to make Lord Tywin Lannister... of the Rains of Castamere fame... even more angry at you for defying him?

So you turtle up inside yourself, let the men do what they will, then let Tyrion rip out the last shreds of your heart himself... and then, when you're finally dismissed, you take the money and anything that's left of your self-worth, and leave.

That's the believable version of events. And it matches Tyrion's memories. There is absolutely no plot or character hole in GRRM's version of this story.

Edited by Katerine459

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@Katerine459 those were two great posts that further highlight the greater psychology at work in ASoIaF. 

The biggest beef i have with D$D is that they seem to forget that the characters have a history that informs their decision making process. They work backwards from the big moment they want and bend rules to get there instead of allowing the characters to organically get there. The Tysha Reveal is a very big reason Tyrion climbs up that secret passage to the Tower of the Hand. He is working off of pure murderous hate when he does so. Tyrion's legs are constantly cramping from walking to much and he chooses to make that climb because he is so filled with hate he must confront Tywin.

D$D are happy to fuck over the Starks at every chance but they absolve Tywin and Jaime of their biggest sin and robs Tyrion of his motivation for destroying his brother and sister.

The absence of the "reveal" plus Winterhell, Porne, and Ser Barriston "The Muthafuggin' Bold" Selmy dying is when i gave up on this show being anything

 

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On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 6:50 PM, Katerine459 said:

I actually think it would have been less believable if Tysha did say anything... and here's why:

 

That's just crazy.  There is no way she wouldn't have been pleading with Tyrion either before, during or after the event.  She wouldn't just bow her head and say nothing when being accused unless she had be coerced beforehand.  And even if she had been coerced beforehand the reaction is again dumb because she would have been coerced to confess and Tyrion would have been even more upset and therefore unable to get it up when the time came.

I am genuinely dumbstruck at the lengths people are going to, to try and justify this awful unrealistic plot point.

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20 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

@Katerine459 those were two great posts that further highlight the greater psychology at work in ASoIaF. 

The biggest beef i have with D$D is that they seem to forget that the characters have a history that informs their decision making process. They work backwards from the big moment they want and bend rules to get there instead of allowing the characters to organically get there. The Tysha Reveal is a very big reason Tyrion climbs up that secret passage to the Tower of the Hand. He is working off of pure murderous hate when he does so. Tyrion's legs are constantly cramping from walking to much and he chooses to make that climb because he is so filled with hate he must confront Tywin.

D$D are happy to fuck over the Starks at every chance but they absolve Tywin and Jaime of their biggest sin and robs Tyrion of his motivation for destroying his brother and sister.

The absence of the "reveal" plus Winterhell, Porne, and Ser Barriston "The Muthafuggin' Bold" Selmy dying is when i gave up on this show being anything

 

You think he would have survived the book series?  Because I don't.

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1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

 

I am genuinely dumbstruck at the lengths people are going to, to try and justify this awful unrealistic plot point.

I'm genuinely dumbstruck by people's tendencies to assume things are unrealistic, based solely on the fact that the character's actions don't match the way they think they themselves would act.

What you call, "justifying," I call "reading for context." For 12-to-14-year-old nice peasant girl Tysha to react to her liege lord's considerable anger (when even your husband, his son, fears the guy) and the prospect of being gang raped, by being either struck dumb, terrified into silence, going into shock, feeling hopeless and alone, or all of the above, is many things - sad, unjust, etc. - but it is not unrealistic.

Edited by Katerine459

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17 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

You think he would have survived the book series?  Because I don't.

OK, but if the books will ever be published, I doubt this character will be randomly offed just to make place for some other character. 

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Man, I could go on for ages about the problems with the show. I'll try (and probably will fail) to keep it brief; 

Dorne. Dorne was awful. Idk why D&D decided to go the route they did with Dorne, almost nothing made sense. Admittedly book Dorne isn't that great but still better than we got. Fucking Areo and Doran did nothing. Honestly you could've cut the Dorne plot from the show and it wouldn't change shit.

Euron. Euron is my favourite character in the books. I like fucked up characters, and Euron is probably the most fucked up character of all. Anyways, I also like him mystic, the fact he uses magic to his advantage, how he could be a greenseer, and also his intellect. He is one incredibly smart dude, incredible strategist and tactician, he is so meticulous, everything he does seems to have a purpose behind it. He's honestly a bigger threat than the Others at this point, and he will fuck shit up, and is just the most menacing, most well written villain in the books... and we got a clown for him in the show. He's none of those. I wouldn't be that upset if they changed his name but man, what an enormous disappointment.

Season 5 is definitely where things started to go awry, D&D just made dumb decisions for seemingly no reason and it impacted the show hard, and now we must suffer the consequences of it. Even so, I like watching it still.

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On 6/29/2018 at 10:31 PM, Ser Gareth said:

You think he would have survived the book series?  Because I don't.

But that's hardly the point, isn't it? Even if he dies in the first chapter in TWOW, his story will make endlessly more sense than in the show. I'm not even sure you can call a "story" what he got in the show.

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On 6/29/2018 at 1:31 PM, Ser Gareth said:

You think he would have survived the book series?  Because I don't.

Thing is he'll probably die like a badass instead of a little bitch like he did in the show. The show did it seemingly for no reason other than "lets change things up". My guess is he'll die in the battle for Meereen.

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On 6/29/2018 at 4:31 PM, Ser Gareth said:

You think he would have survived the book series?  Because I don't.

I do not thnk he will survive the entire series but I do think that when he does finally fall it will be defending a ruler who he finds worthy of his allegiance not gutted in some street. 

There is also the fact that D$D simplified both Jaime's and Barristan's stories on the show. For Jaime it is about reshaping and bringing honor to the Kingsguard despite being considered the worst of the order. For Barristan it was about rediscovering his purpose and to what lengths he should go to protect his ruler. Both are trying to make themselves and their orders mean more than just glorified bodyguards/generals. They do not wish to become Ser Cristan Cole but they want to be able to counsel the rulers, to protect them from their own vices, and to ensure that their rulers are worthy of not only their allegiance but the throne as well.

A Kingsguard gives up everything in choosing to serve the throne and are seen as the highest of Knighthood but as we have seen throughout ASoIaF, a bad ruler can taint the honor and legacy of the Kingsguard through their actions. All a Kingsguard has is their honor and their legacy and both Jaime and Barristan realize how easy it is to have them both corrupted when the ruler they are sworn to is not worthy. 

also at the very least...I wanted to see Barristan training Dany's Queensguard, fight the pit fighters, and offer her sound advice on warfare. Barristan's presence plus the Queensguard would have actually given Dany a boost and not made the decision of whether or not to ally with her so cut and dried as it is with the show as she only has The Dothraki, a known kinslayer and kingslayer, a group of usurping bastards, the Iron Born, and an Army of Eunuchs. With Ser Barristan she would have the most honorable and reknowned night of the seven kingdoms.   

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On June 28, 2018 at 7:39 PM, The Golden Wolf said:

@Katerine459 those were two great posts that further highlight the greater psychology at work in ASoIaF. 

The biggest beef i have with D$D is that they seem to forget that the characters have a history that informs their decision making process. They work backwards from the big moment they want and bend rules to get there instead of allowing the characters to organically get there. The Tysha Reveal is a very big reason Tyrion climbs up that secret passage to the Tower of the Hand. He is working off of pure murderous hate when he does so. Tyrion's legs are constantly cramping from walking to much and he chooses to make that climb because he is so filled with hate he must confront Tywin.

D$D are happy to fuck over the Starks at every chance but they absolve Tywin and Jaime of their biggest sin and robs Tyrion of his motivation for destroying his brother and sister.

The absence of the "reveal" plus Winterhell, Porne, and Ser Barriston "The Muthafuggin' Bold" Selmy dying is when i gave up on this show being anything

 

Tysha was maybe the worse thing Tywin and Jaime did to Tyrion, but it wasn't their biggest sin. I really liked the reveal in the books, but Tyrion confronting Tywin worked just fine in the show, imo. There was a preexisting history of abuse and bad blood between them that made the scene entirely organic. The Tysha reveal may have spiced the scene up, but it wasn't necessary. It was a great scene, in both the books and the show.

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4 hours ago, StepStark said:

But that's hardly the point, isn't it? Even if he dies in the first chapter in TWOW, his story will make endlessly more sense than in the show. I'm not even sure you can call a "story" what he got in the show.

Side characters of Ser Barristan's calibre shouldn't get stories. Their purpose should be in a supporting capacity, such as supporting Dany's story. This is what went wrong with Martin's books. He tried to give every character a story, which completely overloaded the books, making them convoluted messes. 

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4 hours ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

Thing is he'll probably die like a badass instead of a little bitch like he did in the show. The show did it seemingly for no reason other than "lets change things up". My guess is he'll die in the battle for Meereen.

Taking on a dozen opponents at once doesn't make Ser Barristan "a little bitch", at least, not to me. 

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4 hours ago, Vhagar's Ghost said:

Thing is he'll probably die like a badass instead of a little bitch like he did in the show. The show did it seemingly for no reason other than "lets change things up". My guess is he'll die in the battle for Meereen.

Die like a badass? Like Khal Drogo did? Sounds like fanservice to me.

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3 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Side characters of Ser Barristan's calibre shouldn't get stories. Their purpose should be in a supporting capacity, such as supporting Dany's story. This is what went wrong with Martin's books. He tried to give every character a story, which completely overloaded the books, making them convoluted messes. 

I wouldn't call the books convoluted messes.

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4 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

I wouldn't call the books convoluted messes.

I respect your opinion, but it’s my belief that AFFC/ADWD killed any chance Martin had of completing the series. I hope I’m wrong, though.

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