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Katerine459

[SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

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13 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

Taking on a dozen opponents at once doesn't make Ser Barristan "a little bitch", at least, not to me. 

Sorry if that was worded aggressively, what I meant was that it kinda seemed dumb that Ser Barristan died from knife wielding kids in pyjamas. Also the fact that they killed him for no reason other than just to kill him and advance Dany's plot also irked me.

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6 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

I respect your opinion, but it’s my belief that AFFC/ADWD killed any chance Martin had of completing the series. I hope I’m wrong, though.

 

This.  My personal opinion is that GRRM is heartedly sick and tired of GoT and ASOIAF.  He has lived with the Targs and the Lannisters and the Starks et al for so long that he longs for something else, the simplicity of Duncan and Egg, the fun of Knight-Errantry.  It's why he won't let anyone else mess with that story.  He'll let them wander where they will.  As for the show, it could never be an exact mirror of the books because if it was, we would have to wait another 20 years or so for the final season.  I don't envy D&D, they had to move this thing to a conclusion, consequently, they had to wrap up some of GRRM's plot lines.  Maybe they were somewhat heavy-handed in some but the need was there. 

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Posted (edited)
On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 8:04 PM, Byfort of Corfe said:

This.  My personal opinion is that GRRM is heartedly sick and tired of GoT and ASOIAF.  He has lived with the Targs and the Lannisters and the Starks et al for so long that he longs for something else, the simplicity of Duncan and Egg, the fun of Knight-Errantry.  It's why he won't let anyone else mess with that story.  He'll let them wander where they will.  As for the show, it could never be an exact mirror of the books because if it was, we would have to wait another 20 years or so for the final season.  I don't envy D&D, they had to move this thing to a conclusion, consequently, they had to wrap up some of GRRM's plot lines.  Maybe they were somewhat heavy-handed in some but the need was there. 

Well, he hasn´t completed the fourth Dunk and Egg story either.

Edited by Rhodan

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When they decided that the Starks were stupid and uninteresting, and needed to be taken down a few pegs, and the Lannisters were cool and therefore needed whitewashing.

So you get shit like "honor gets you killed", and Tywin, while being ruthless, is overall a decent misunderstood leader.  And that's just for starters.

The fact that, especially starting in season 5, characters began acting  in ways entirely inconsistent with their previous actions, only made the situation worse.  It was at this point that I gave up.  

That's all I have time for.  If I have an entire afternoon, I might return to the subject.  It'll probably take that long to doit thoroughly.:P

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I've always been a firm believer of when the writers start catering to what the fans want instead of what they want, that is when everything starts to go downhill. Imagine if GRRM had that mindset, the books would be complete shit. I've read some fanfictions where the writers have changed things because the fans complained, and then you slowly start to see plotholes appearing. 

As someone who is a massive fan of solid character development and meaty fleshed out world building, I don't think there will ever be a case where I prefer the TV show over the books. TV shows need to be quick paced and filled with likable characters in order to please the average fan. Imagine in the show if Tyrion had sex with a whore out of spite because he noticed she didn't want to have sex with him, and then proceed to throw up on her floor. Or imagine Jon Snow threatening Gilly to leave her child at Castle Black and take Mance's son with her to Oldtown. The fans would still be complaining to this day if their two dimensional Captain America style hero, or their beloved comic relief character where to do something 'villain' like. or imagine if there was a full 20 minute segment of Catelyn making her way up the Eyrie, because for those of you who are show onlys, I swear to god there was a 47 minute chapter (I listen to them on audiobooks) in which Catelyn climbed up the Eyrie going into detail about what she sees. 

It really didn't help that not only was the source material getting near its end by Season 5, but I think that was also when GRRM stopped working on the show to focus on TWoW, (which was apparently false, since we are suddenly getting a 700 page history book on House Targaryen instead) so these writers are suddenly having to create their own story. 

Whilst I agree with you that the Sansa and Ramsay plot was fucking stupid, I can see what the writers where trying to do. If they just added the Jeyne Poole character all of a sudden, none of the show only fans would give a shit, they would be like "Huh Jeyne Poole, who the fuck is that?" So the writers needed to put a loved character in that situation to get a rise from the audience, and unfortunately there are only a few female characters who everyone loves. Arya, Sansa, Daenerys and Cersei are the only ones that come to mind, and the only one that fits in the Bolton bride plotline is Sansa. 

To end things though I really do see what you mean about Season 7, I mean fuck it I did enjoy the battles and the scenes looked visually pleasing, but the plots are pretty meh. I'm sure I have read a fanfiction that looked alot like Season 7 before Season 7 even came out. 

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I've always been a firm believer of when the writers start catering to what the fans want instead of what they want, that is when everything starts to go downhill. Imagine if GRRM had that mindset, the books would be complete shit. I've read some fanfictions where the writers have changed things because the fans complained, and then you slowly start to see plotholes appearing. 

As someone who is a massive fan of solid character development and meaty fleshed out world building, I don't think there will ever be a case where I prefer the TV show over the books. TV shows need to be quick paced and filled with likable characters in order to please the average fan. Imagine in the show if Tyrion had sex with a whore out of spite because he noticed she didn't want to have sex with him, and then proceed to throw up on her floor. Or imagine Jon Snow threatening Gilly to leave her child at Castle Black and take Mance's son with her to Oldtown. The fans would still be complaining to this day if their two dimensional Captain America style hero, or their beloved comic relief character where to do something 'villain' like. or imagine if there was a full 20 minute segment of Catelyn making her way up the Eyrie, because for those of you who are show onlys, I swear to god there was a 47 minute chapter (I listen to them on audiobooks) in which Catelyn climbed up the Eyrie going into detail about what she sees. 

It really didn't help that not only was the source material getting near its end by Season 5, but I think that was also when GRRM stopped working on the show to focus on TWoW, (which was apparently false, since we are suddenly getting a 700 page history book on House Targaryen instead) so these writers are suddenly having to create their own story. 

Whilst I agree with you that the Sansa and Ramsay plot was fucking stupid, I can see what the writers where trying to do. If they just added the Jeyne Poole character all of a sudden, none of the show only fans would give a shit, they would be like "Huh Jeyne Poole, who the fuck is that?" So the writers needed to put a loved character in that situation to get a rise from the audience, and unfortunately there are only a few female characters who everyone loves. Arya, Sansa, Daenerys and Cersei are the only ones that come to mind, and the only one that fits in the Bolton bride plotline is Sansa. 

To end things though I really do see what you mean about Season 7, I mean fuck it I did enjoy the battles and the scenes looked visually pleasing, but the plots are pretty meh. I'm sure I have read a fanfiction that looked alot like Season 7 before Season 7 even came out. 

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39 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

I've always been a firm believer of when the writers start catering to what the fans want instead of what they want, that is when everything starts to go downhill. Imagine if GRRM had that mindset, the books would be complete shit. I've read some fanfictions where the writers have changed things because the fans complained, and then you slowly start to see plotholes appearing. 

As someone who is a massive fan of solid character development and meaty fleshed out world building, I don't think there will ever be a case where I prefer the TV show over the books. TV shows need to be quick paced and filled with likable characters in order to please the average fan. Imagine in the show if Tyrion had sex with a whore out of spite because he noticed she didn't want to have sex with him, and then proceed to throw up on her floor. Or imagine Jon Snow threatening Gilly to leave her child at Castle Black and take Mance's son with her to Oldtown. The fans would still be complaining to this day if their two dimensional Captain America style hero, or their beloved comic relief character where to do something 'villain' like. or imagine if there was a full 20 minute segment of Catelyn making her way up the Eyrie, because for those of you who are show onlys, I swear to god there was a 47 minute chapter (I listen to them on audiobooks) in which Catelyn climbed up the Eyrie going into detail about what she sees. 

It really didn't help that not only was the source material getting near its end by Season 5, but I think that was also when GRRM stopped working on the show to focus on TWoW, (which was apparently false, since we are suddenly getting a 700 page history book on House Targaryen instead) so these writers are suddenly having to create their own story. 

Whilst I agree with you that the Sansa and Ramsay plot was fucking stupid, I can see what the writers where trying to do. If they just added the Jeyne Poole character all of a sudden, none of the show only fans would give a shit, they would be like "Huh Jeyne Poole, who the fuck is that?" So the writers needed to put a loved character in that situation to get a rise from the audience, and unfortunately there are only a few female characters who everyone loves. Arya, Sansa, Daenerys and Cersei are the only ones that come to mind, and the only one that fits in the Bolton bride plotline is Sansa. 

To end things though I really do see what you mean about Season 7, I mean fuck it I did enjoy the battles and the scenes looked visually pleasing, but the plots are pretty meh. I'm sure I have read a fanfiction that looked alot like Season 7 before Season 7 even came out. 

I thought it was the other way round, particularly since the writers don’t answer interviews about storylines, particularly Sansa’s. 

The Sansa plot line was weak on quite a few levels. It rehashed Sansa being betrothed to a psycho who could do as he pleased, made her a supporting character to Theon, made Brienne look like an ass for abandoning Sansa to die simply to decapitate Stannis (and that’s another sore point) and the Northern lords look bad as well. Why did they allow Sansa to be abused as she was?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

Whilst I agree with you that the Sansa and Ramsay plot was fucking stupid, I can see what the writers where trying to do. If they just added the Jeyne Poole character all of a sudden, none of the show only fans would give a shit, they would be like "Huh Jeyne Poole, who the fuck is that?" So the writers needed to put a loved character in that situation to get a rise from the audience, and unfortunately there are only a few female characters who everyone loves. Arya, Sansa, Daenerys and Cersei are the only ones that come to mind, and the only one that fits in the Bolton bride plotline is Sansa. 

Actually, I would argue that, if you are willing to delay going to Braavos, Arya fits even better than Sansa, Littlefinger can ransom her from Sandor, then ship her to the Boltons as a prisoner, so no stupid decision making on her part.   Cersei doesn't care, so no problem there.  It doesn't have to be a secret, either, which was a problem with Sansa.  Everyone can be invited, and it fucks Jon up too.  It has its problems, but it would give her the captivity and abuse story arc they ignored in Season 2 at Harrenhal, and give her a real reason to want to learn how to kill people.  And makes a lot more sense than Sansa did.

Although I still think it should have been Jeyne Poole or forget it.  And I have no doubt that they can make viewers care if they want to.  They just didn't care enough.

Edited by Nevets

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought it was the other way round, particularly since the writers don’t answer interviews about storylines, particularly Sansa’s. 

The Sansa plot line was weak on quite a few levels. It rehashed Sansa being betrothed to a psycho who could do as he pleased, made her a supporting character to Theon, made Brienne look like an ass for abandoning Sansa to die simply to decapitate Stannis (and that’s another sore point) and the Northern lords look bad as well. Why did they allow Sansa to be abused as she was?

I never said it was a good decision, I'm saying it was the best they could make out of the shitstorm they were already in.  

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3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Actually, I would argue that, if you are willing to delay going to Braavos, Arya fits even better than Sansa, Littlefinger can ransom her from Sandor, then ship her to the Boltons as a prisoner, so no stupid decision making on her part.   Cersei doesn't care, so no problem there.  It doesn't have to be a secret, either, which was a problem with Sansa.  Everyone can be invited, and it fucks Jon up too.  It has its problems, but it would give her the captivity and abuse story arc they ignored in Season 2 at Harrenhal, and give her a real reason to want to learn how to kill people.

Although I still think it should have been Jeyne Poole or forget it.  And I have no doubt that they can make viewers care if they want to.  They just didn't care enough.

I'm not saying it was a good decision, it was just, in my opinion, the best they could do in the shitstorm they already created for themselves.

How does Arya fit in better then Sansa? Arya is nothing like Sansa. She would probably have either tried to kill Ramsay and gotten herself killed, or killed herself. Out of all the female characters, Sansa is the most Jeyne Poole like. Plus even if the writers were crazy enough to even consider putting Arya in that storyline, I imagine the conversation would go something like this:

"Well one of them has to marry Ramsay. What do you think the audience would prefer to see, Arya training as a Faceless Man, or Sansa sitting in the Vale eating lemoncakes?"

As I said, the writers of the show don't give a shit about the political aspect of the show, they just want to cram action down our throats like every other TV show out there. Plus they pretty much made the Vale consist of Littlefinger, Robyn Arryn and Yohn Royce, so Sansa would literally have nothing to do there. 

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I disagree. I think that they could've done shit in the Vale and made it interesting. Perhaps Littlefinger does something which pisses off Sansa, she and many of the lords of the Vale team together to overthrow Petyr, maybe even Robin, and boom, Sansa becomes the Defender of the Vale, then she decides "the Bolton's killed my brother and mother, they can't hold the North", and so goes around the North, maybe even run into Jon, they team up and take Winterfell together.

I have tons of issues with Sansa's plot in season 5. Most troubling was her rape by Ramsay. It meant more to Theon than it did to Sansa, which I found disgusting and offensive. If you're gonna show someone get raped, focus on that character, don't do it just because, and definitely don't make it about another character. One of my biggest problems with the show is the portrayal of rape. You can have rape, but don't have it be a background thing and it only happens just so a female character goes through trauma, then not focus on that trauma. So D&D could've done much more in season 5, just for some reason they didn't, and that's troubling.

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Posted (edited)

D&D actually made some genuine improvements to GRRM's baseline text in seasons 1-4.

I know that many disagree with this contention - vehemently - but when I look back at the earlier seasons (and excluding a few egregious examples to the contrary, like the endlessly cringe-inducing sexposition littlefinger scene in the brothel), there were some excellently written Varys - Littlefinger and Cersei interactions that weren't in the books (because all three weren't POV characters, until Cersei gets her own chapters in AFFC ) which significantly upped the ante in terms of court intrigue.

TV Margaery and Olenna were also greatly improved characters, Margaery in the show being a much more interesting player in Westerosi power politics. Indeed, show Cersei was a rounded and sympathetic villain on occasion, whereas in the books she comes across as borderline sociopathic. 

Her conversation with Sansa in ACOK, after the poor girl has her first period, was much better in the TV show because Cersei appeared to evidence a small bit of motherly compassion. Who wouldn't in that circumstance, given what Sansa had gone and was going through? Book Cersei was still just a bitch in that scene, mocking her lack of intellect.

There are other scenes - like the emotional TV moment when Robb and Catelyn find out about Ned's death - that were welcome contributions from D&D. I also didn't regard the invention of Talisa and the omission of Jeyne Poole as an overly bad decision. 

So their rather shambolic handling of things in season 7 (but beginning with the Sand Snakes in season 5) and the logical incoherence of the plot, which culminated in the Wight Hunt for Cersei nonsense, cannot simply be attributed to poor screenwriting ability on their part. GRRM is an infinitely superior writer but they evidently can write good scenes and dialogue on their own. However they just couldn't (a) resist making some silly deviations like with the Sand Snakes and (b) find internally consistent ways of wrapping up GRRM's increasingly unwieldy, many-headed hydra of a plot and sub-plots.

The latter isn't their fault. Indeed - and despite my lack of enthusiasm for the result - I commend them for trying their hardest to achieve in a matter of months (between seasons) what GRRM has struggled to tighten up and finesse for 7 years (with no end in sight in relation to TWOW).

 

Edited by Krishtotter

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On 6/28/2018 at 6:48 AM, Katerine459 said:

Wasn't Tyrion, like, 14 when the whole thing with Tysha happened? [Check that... I just looked it up... he was 13Younger than what I originally thought!]

Tyrion's story makes perfect sense in the books. He was an adolescent who idolized his older brother. Jaime was the only member of Tyrion's immediate family who didn't openly despise him, even showed some affection for him, and who hadn't called Tyrion a mother-murdering monster for literally Tyrion's entire life.

He believe Jaime when Jaime said he'd set up the whole thing with Tysha because he idolized Jaime, because Tysha said she loved him and he didn't believe he was lovable, and because he was 14[13]. Tyrion is very smart, true, but how world-wise are you, really, at 14[13]? Who are you more likely to believe, the brother you've known your entire life or the girl you've known for a couple months? Especially when one of their stories fits with what you've been told your entire life (that you're unlovable), and the other person's story directly contradicts that (that you are lovable)?

So he wound up believing Jaime, and letting Tysha be gang-raped (though he didn't understand it was rape at the time). Then, years later, after saving the city only to be shunted aside and forgotten by most, being forced to marry a child, being blamed by the people for Joffrey's monstrous actions, being put on trial for his life by his father and accused by his sister, having the woman he'd fallen in love with testify against him using lies mixed with truths that only she knew about (and I will never believe that book-Shae didn't choose to do that of her own free will), being found guilty and condemned to death... and THEN Jaime... arguably the one person in the world that Tyrion still trusted at all... tells him that he'd lied all those years ago, and Tysha really did love him, which meant that Tyrion had let her be gang-raped and then participated himself. He then finds the woman he loves in his father's bed (after his father had spent years openly despising Tyrion for his propensity for whores). And he snaps.

What about this is unbelievable? I thought it was perfectly set up, as well as Tyrion's severe depression and PTSD in ADWD. It actually shows a great care for character development, to follow through with everything Tyrion had been through with the psychological effects of being through those things, even though those psychological effects made him less likable to many.

I have mixed feelings about the show's treatment of him. On the one hand, I really, really like Tyrion. He's one of my favorite characters. And I love Peter Dinklage playing him, and it would be kind of hard to watch him become kind of unlikable, as he became in the books, after all this. It's also kind of hard, without access to his inner thoughts, to understand where it's coming from... the flashbacks and self-loathing that arose from... well, from his entire life, but especially from the events of ASOS, and most especially from the act of killing his father. Even with those inner thoughts, it was often hard for many to like him in ADWD.

On the other hand... I really, really respect GRRM for not shying away from what Tyrion, as a human being who'd been through a very bad, love-starved, betrayal-filled life, would go through, and... I don't exactly resent D&D for not following through with it in their version -- at least, not in isolation. That is, if this were the only example of D&D not following through with character motivation and character development and character consistency (or showing any sign of caring about any of those things), I'd be more than fine with it. But it's not. Not by a long shot.

Totally with you here; the complexity is mind blowing and he is my fav too.  He won't stay like that in the books much longer but to make it realistic, I guess George had no choice but make him a huge mess for a long time, given the circumstances.

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