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[SPOILERS thru S7] Where did the show go wrong?

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On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 9:32 AM, Guest said:

When I read his blog post after the rape episode aired, GRRM didn't seem offended by these changes. He seemed contemplative, not angry or anything like a lot of viewers were. He clearly has sympathy for the job they have to do, condensing his dense, complex books into a filmable entity. He respects the differences between prose and TV.

So? I don´t care what Martin thinks.

 

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 9:32 AM, Guest said:

 There could be other disagreements we don't hear about, but again I don't think this particular Ramsay change matters all that much - for 3 reasons:

1. Bookwise, Jeyne/Ramsay was a plot advanced by Littlefinger and Sansa/Harry is a "kinder" version of that. Littlefinger took these two girls raised at Winterfell and are pitting them against each other. Same plot, with nicer "scenery" for Sansa - but not for long, because...

2. I think Sansa will be sexually assaulted in the books. The Ramsay plotline doesn't offend me because I think GRRM is going to put her through the ringer anyway.

3. Sansa is going North in the books. I think she flees her marriage to Harry, possibly because of a rape/attempted rape by him or Littlefinger. In my mind, she'll end up at the Wall, because I can't see her riding along in the Vale army after that.

Overall, I get annoyed by the show than angry. That could change depending on S8. I'm waiting to see how badly they assassinate Jon's character. Jon and Tyrion, fascinating characters by themselves, are made into servants for Daenerys who are barely indistinguishable from Jorah or Daario.

It is distantly possible, but it sounds to me immensely stupid. This is wishful thinking on the part show apologists who think the events of the show will be made less awful becouse something similar will hapen in the books. Also I don´t know what are you talking about with "piting them against each other". Jeyne isn´t part of any of his megalomaniac plans.

Edited by Rhodan

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I would say the drop off is symptomatic of the writers being ready to move on for a long time. This last season was evidential of there rush towards the end, creating unearned developments and relationships. It was all plain sailing until the Red Wedding and the Pink Wedding but after that they started taking a cleaver to the source material. They don't want Aegon so Dorne is useless. They didn't really want the Iron Islands so Euron is poorly realised to replace the mad villainy of Joffrey and Ramsey. They wanted out on the Stannis story and so that ended like a damp squib. They also have preferences not supported in the text, namely Cersei and Sansa. Sansa disappears from the last 2 books as she spends her time eating lemoncakes. Yet they kept her and gave Bran a season off, which seems to have been a big mistake as his evolution is inexplicable. Arya barely gets any time in last 2 books but they hack at her story even more until there is basically nothing. Each episode could have been a different learning task in season 5 but as it is she just sweeps up and washes dead people. Now she's back and can do all these things and people are left wondering where she learned those things. They were meant to show us in the rich culture of Braavos, instead it was just miserable. I love Cersei scenes and she does become more prominent as the series goes on but they've done so much for Lena that isn't shown in the books. She's always been at the forefront and we've always known her point of view.

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

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I enjoy the show. The show led me to the books. (Well, my husband read the books, insisted we watch the show...but you get my point.)

I love the books, too.  While I agree with some of these points - LF would NOT have given Sansa to the Boltons, speed travel is ridiculous (Dany should have been at the Wall with them.  At least the time from Gendry running back to the Wall to their rescue would have been PLAUSIBLE), Dorne plot in S5...

BUT

While we are all complaining about these things, there is another section of the forum with many people complaining about how Martin lost control of his material in AFFC and ADWD.    I am the first to suggest in other forums that we shouldn't discredit Martin for AFFC and ADWD. I think he is setting something up big and I am willing to wade through seemingly needless plot if it leads to something absolutely marvelous (and I have faith that it will!) However, D&D may also be heeding to the widespread opinion among book readers that GRRM went a little off the rails with Ironborn, Dorne, Vale, etc. in the books and it needed to be reworked for the screen.  I think they heard George's outline for the characters and tweaked so that certain character developments/emotional growths occurred, albeit in different ways.  Some of these are successful, others not, and some only partially so. For example:

Having Sansa/Sophie Turner basically spinning her wheels in the Vale for a couple of seasons was a non starter, as was introducing extra characters including Harry the Heir (actors = money)  especially if my theory of what will happen holds true (Harry is going to die and Sansa is going to be raped, only by Littlefinger.)  So, D&D give Sansa Jeyne Poole's storyline and also crash it with the Harry the Heir line (because I do think Sansa is going to be raped, and that is going to affect her character development substantially)  But they neglected Littlefingers whole motivation for everything he does, or rather, they reduced it to another power hungry sociopath.  Why does he covet power? Because he was madly in love with Catelyn and because he was too low born, he could never marry her.  Sansa has been formed in his mind as Catelyn 2.0.  I was hopeful at the end of season four when they had LF kill Lysa with the same sentiment (Only your sister) that the show runners grasped this; alas, no.

Dorne -  They gave Arianne Martell's mission to Ellaria Sand, plainly enough.  But there are a few things wrong with this.  First, Ellaria wanted peace in the books! Second, Oberyn's death was not the only thing that drove Arianne.  I would argue that it was not even the largest thing - it was her belief that Doran was trying to usurp her with Quentyn as his heir. the Pact of Braavos and Doran's long game was essential for the Dornish plot to make sense.  Cutting Arianne resulted in cutting Quentyn, and possibly Arianne was cut because they cut (f)Aegon (however you choose to believe, real or fake).  Without the Pact of Braavos, without the plan to marry Arianne to Viserys, Doran is left as a shell in the actual sense, not in the "I may appear to be a sheep but I have been plotting away..." sense.   It left Dorne lacking and I think the showrunners realized this at the end of season 5 and I think that is why Areo and Doran were killed off in quick fashion at the beginning of season 6.

Just some thoughts.

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19 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Having Sansa/Sophie Turner basically spinning her wheels in the Vale for a couple of seasons was a non starter, as was introducing extra characters including Harry the Heir (actors = money)  especially if my theory of what will happen holds true (Harry is going to die and Sansa is going to be raped, only by Littlefinger.)  So, D&D give Sansa Jeyne Poole's storyline and also crash it with the Harry the Heir line (because I do think Sansa is going to be raped, and that is going to affect her character development substantially)  But they neglected Littlefingers whole motivation for everything he does, or rather, they reduced it to another power hungry sociopath.  Why does he covet power? Because he was madly in love with Catelyn and because he was too low born, he could never marry her.  Sansa has been formed in his mind as Catelyn 2.0.  I was hopeful at the end of season four when they had LF kill Lysa with the same sentiment (Only your sister) that the show runners grasped this; alas, no.

I have no link, but there is some testimony that Martin said his POV characters will never be raped, so I don´t think there is ever going to be chance to something like that happen in the books.

19 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Dorne -  They gave Arianne Martell's mission to Ellaria Sand, plainly enough.  But there are a few things wrong with this.  First, Ellaria wanted peace in the books! Second, Oberyn's death was not the only thing that drove Arianne.  I would argue that it was not even the largest thing - it was her belief that Doran was trying to usurp her with Quentyn as his heir. the Pact of Braavos and Doran's long game was essential for the Dornish plot to make sense.  Cutting Arianne resulted in cutting Quentyn, and possibly Arianne was cut because they cut (f)Aegon (however you choose to believe, real or fake).  Without the Pact of Braavos, without the plan to marry Arianne to Viserys, Doran is left as a shell in the actual sense, not in the "I may appear to be a sheep but I have been plotting away..." sense.   It left Dorne lacking and I think the showrunners realized this at the end of season 5 and I think that is why Areo and Doran were killed off in quick fashion at the beginning of season 6.

Just some thoughts.

 Arienne  has never wanted to kill Myrcella. They essentially took Sand Snakes + Ellaria and they gave them all Obara´s personality and intentions.  

Edited by Rhodan

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9 minutes ago, Rhodan said:

Arienne  has never wanted to kill Myrcella.

Fair enough. I should have rephrased.  Arianne's mission - the avenge Dorne, to be seen as a leader of Dorne - has been transferred to Ellaria.  However, Arianne's reasons for leading Dorne are different that Ellaria's, so it shows differently in execution.

 

13 minutes ago, Rhodan said:

there is some testimony that Martin said his POV characters will never be raped

I do not recall hearing this at all. I know you said you have no link, but does anyone else? This is new to me. 

Also, we may not have a POV account of the rape - it may happen to a POV character off screen.  So, in the event that Martin has said something to this effect, that may be what he is referring to as well.

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I do not recall hearing this at all. I know you said you have no link, but does anyone else? This is new to me. 

Also, we may not have a POV account of the rape - it may happen to a POV character off screen.  So, in the event that Martin has said something to this effect, that may be what he is referring to as well.

Unfortunaly not...

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The fact everyone is even here is a pretty solid testament that the show didn't go wrong, But you can keep up with your arm chair qb'ing, 

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18 hours ago, Rhodan said:

I have no link, but there is some testimony that Martin said his POV characters will never be raped, so I don´t think there is ever going to be chance to something like that happen in the books.

 

GRRM never said this. I have asked for evidence of it over the years, and not one person has ever provided it. It is an urban legend.

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On 11/8/2018 at 9:10 PM, Error-504 said:

The fact everyone is even here is a pretty solid testament that the show didn't go wrong, But you can keep up with your arm chair qb'ing, 

That doesn’t even make the slightest bit of sense. Just because people are talking about something doesn’t mean it’s good. Bad things can interest and engage us just as much as good things. Besides, the name of this thread is ”Where did the show go wrong?”, and ”go wrong” implies that it was once good. People could have become interested in it while it was still good and now, when it’s ”gone wrong”, they’re around to talk about it. 

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On 11/8/2018 at 8:10 PM, Error-504 said:

The fact everyone is even here is a pretty solid testament that the show didn't go wrong, But you can keep up with your arm chair qb'ing, 

I don't think that is true. I came on here out of some sort of morbid curiosity as to what the final season might hold and what people who actually care about the books are saying about it. 

My love for the show has featured a dramatic decline. I've gone from desperately hunting around for snippets of info about the new season every year, to barely remembering that the show exists. I'd hoped being here might instil some more excitement in me.. but it hasn't.

Having said that. For a lot of people, the show HASN'T gone wrong. I know plenty of non book readers who considered last season to be amazing and enthralling. I totally disagree with them. I felt it jumped a rotting zombie shark pretty early on and never recovered. 

For me, all the tiny problems with the show have grown and grown over the seasons and the positives have been completely outweighed by the negatives. We can look at all the issues of the show individually, but I think it all really stems from commercial pressure to get the show out fast, and create crowd pleasing moments that look good in trailers but don't have any depth or meaning. The writers fall back on standard tropes and classic movie storytelling, which is incredibly obvious to anyone who has seen more than about 2 movies in their life. There isn't the time to put things together in a clever way.. it just has to get done. 

Its very sad, what was once my favourite show in the world has become an afterthought.

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On 11/22/2018 at 12:16 PM, Artos Cold said:

That doesn’t even make the slightest bit of sense. Just because people are talking about something doesn’t mean it’s good. Bad things can interest and engage us just as much as good things. Besides, the name of this thread is ”Where did the show go wrong?”, and ”go wrong” implies that it was once good. People could have become interested in it while it was still good and now, when it’s ”gone wrong”, they’re around to talk about it. 

Every time a something reaches a certain level of popularity, a counter-culture develops that wants to take it down. Hey, look at me, I am so "cool" I am bashing something that everyone else likes.  Yawn. People that truly have become disinterested just move on. They don't spend their time shouting to the roof tops why something is so bad, or where it went "wrong". 

GOT has seen increased viewer-ship each and every year, with last seasons finally setting records. Increased viewer-ship equals increased revenue, equals more money for longer episodes, more/better CGI,  etc etc.

Last I checked, HBO was a business. Business's main objective is to make money. 

The only thing they got wrong was expecting GRIMM to actually write his books........

Edited by Error-504

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On 11/24/2018 at 6:38 PM, Error-504 said:

Every time a something reaches a certain level of popularity, a counter-culture develops that wants to take it down. Hey, look at me, I am so "cool" I am bashing something that everyone else likes.  Yawn. People that truly have become disinterested just move on. They don't spend their time shouting to the roof tops why something is so bad, or where it went "wrong".

With that kind of attitude it’s impossible to have any kind of discussion about any moderately famous movie, show or book. You can simply disregard whatever the other person has to say, safe in the knowledge that they aren’t being genuine and are just trying to be cool. 

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On 11/26/2018 at 1:20 PM, Artos Cold said:

With that kind of attitude it’s impossible to have any kind of discussion about any moderately famous movie, show or book. You can simply disregard whatever the other person has to say, safe in the knowledge that they aren’t being genuine and are just trying to be cool. 

Yeah, it always kinda sucks when someone brings facts to the table, doesn't it? if the thread would have been titled different, such as............

"What would you have preferred to have seen on the show"

                                   or

" How do you think think the show could have been improved upon"

I would have no issue. But to say the show went "wrong" is laughable. And who is to say if the changes that those have or those that might suggest been made, the show would have had as much success? For all we know it might have not been as huge a success if done differently, and might have been canceled after season 4.

or maybe they should have just stopped entirely, and waited for GRIMM to finish the books. Of course by that time Brann might have been 30, and Dany and Jon Grand parents. 

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The first signs thar the series went downhill was when the " show creators" stopped caring about the source material.When they believed  that could improve it with fanservice,like The Hound vs Brienne.

Later they expanded roles from characters like Ramsey and Cersei because they liked the actors,and in the other hand changed the storyline when they hated others (like Barristan,Bran,Mance Rayder and Stannis).

I disagree that they cut and condensed some storylines because of lack of time and too many characters.They used that time with their own silly,cliché and filler characters like Olly and Karl Fooking legend.

Since season 4 ending they whitewashed different characters ,starting with the removal of Jaimie revelation to Tyrion.Then they cut all the plot envolving Jon's dillema with Mace baby,Lady Stoneheart and turned Mad Queen Cersei into a saint.

They had the same mistake in Troy  when they butchered the characters, storyline and everything else.The problem was not trying to do a "down to the earth" version of the epic  (that is being done beautifuly in the comic series The age of bronze),but lacking the spirit of the original work.

Martin is  in part culprit of this mess.

He could have taken the same path of Katsuhiro Otomo and Hayo Miyazaki with Akira and Nausicaa:  they wrote totally different endings for the movie adaptations,and than took their time to finish the original version.

But I disagree with all this "Martin-bashing". Who decided to split the material from "A storm of swords" in two seasons and later mash 2 books into a single season?

D& D wanted so much to overcome Martin shadow,just to show new material that they rushed everything.

The producers should had put the series into a hiatus after season 4 during one year and half,like HBO had done with The Sopranos.

They could had used that time to plan  properly the next seasons,maybe following some of the ideas of the 5 years gap.

After that adapting part of material of "Dance" and most of "A feast for crows" in 2016,and  the rest of Dance in season 6 in 2017.

 

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On November 27, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Saint Saga said:

The first signs thar the series went downhill was when the " show creators" stopped caring about the source material.When they believed  that could improve it with fanservice,like The Hound vs Brienne.

The Hound vs. Brienne wasn't fanservice. It was a natural way to end the Hound and Arya's journey with one another, while giving Brienne something to do. In the books, her arc is filler and she is just wandering around the Riverlands aimlessly. The showrunners certainly respect the source material, as they've adapted the books relatively faithfully through seasons 1-4. When they hit season 5, they ran out of good material and had to cut a lot of the fat from AFFC/ADWD. After that, they didn't have any source material to work with at all.

 

On November 27, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Saint Saga said:

I disagree that they cut and condensed some storylines because of lack of time and too many characters.They used that time with their own silly,cliché and filler characters like Olly and Karl Fooking legend.

Since season 4 ending they whitewashed different characters ,starting with the removal of Jaimie revelation to Tyrion.Then they cut all the plot envolving Jon's dillema with Mace baby,Lady Stoneheart and turned Mad Queen Cersei into a saint.

Olly and Karl were minor supporting characters that took up very little time. Cutting them wouldn't leave much room for other plots from the books. Jaime's revelation wasn't needed for Tyrion to kill Tywin, we don't know the relevance of the switching of the babies yet, Lady Stoneheart is a one dimensional filler character, and Show Cersei blew up the Sept of Baelor, so not exactly a saint.

 

On November 27, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Saint Saga said:

Martin is  in part culprit of this mess.

Martin is more than a part culprit. If you're upset that D&D diverged from the source material, you have only Martin to blame. He's the one who failed to complete the series before the show caught up.

 

On November 27, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Saint Saga said:

But I disagree with all this "Martin-bashing". Who decided to split the material from "A storm of swords" in two seasons and later mash 2 books into a single season?

D& D wanted so much to overcome Martin shadow,just to show new material that they rushed everything.

ASOS had a lot of material, so splitting the books into two seasons was the right call. In fact, it wasn't quite two seasons, as some material from AFFC was adapted into season 4, so your next point is also wrong. Material from AFFC/ADWD was adapted throughout seasons 4,5, and 6. Of course, they still cut a lot of material, but most of it was filler and bloat.

 

8 seasons and 73 episodes isn't rushing by any stretch of the imagination. Remember, it was Martin that failed to provide D&D with adequate material, so they were forced to forge their own path.

On November 27, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Saint Saga said:

The producers should had put the series into a hiatus after season 4 during one year and half,like HBO had done with The Sopranos.

They could had used that time to plan  properly the next seasons,maybe following some of the ideas of the 5 years gap.

After that adapting part of material of "Dance" and most of "A feast for crows" in 2016,and  the rest of Dance in season 6 in 2017.

How would delaying GOT a year have helped? Martin still wouldn't have released Winds of Winter, so they would have had to diverge from the source material anyway.

Martin couldn't work the five year gap in the books, so why do you think D&D could make it work in their show?

Dance and Feast simply do not have enough proper material to create two full seasons.

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The answer to this question is difficult, because throughout season 4 there were little mistakes, and cutting the tysha reveal at the end was the biggest one. 

But my answer will always be sansa marrying ramsay in season 5. It makes, Roose, Ramsay, Sansa and LF all look idiotic and effectively ruined the northern plot from then on. How could they screw up so badly that the north didn't remember anything at all?

I refuse to believe that a season of Sansa creeping around the north trying to get northern houses to rise up would have been less interesting than her being raped and abused for a whole season. 

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