Heresy 203 and growing suspicions anent the Starks

[LordBlakeney]

9 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Sincerely, I have no idea what this argument is--you issue these words as though they are a "correction," but I have no idea what is to be corrected.

Have to agree. @Black Crow seems to find the show anathema and the arguments boil down to rejecting any possibility of NK or WW leader simply because there is a Night King on GOT. 

@Matthew's point that the existence of NK does not negate the centrality of Winterfell's children to the plot seems to go largely unanswered in this back-and-forth, and that smacks of contrarianism for the sake of being contrary.

Emphasis on the NK in the books, along with confirmed skinchanging magic and long-lived beings, elevates potential WW leaders to the realm of possibility, or at the very least should keep us from rejecting the notion out of hand just because we dislike the "mummers version."

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Continue down our own roads regarding what?

How are "here's what I think might be going on with the Others," and "this is Jon's story" incompatible sentiments?

It is literally only a page ago that you compared the ancient Stark lords to the Nazgul, possibly returning to claim what is theirs--there is no distinction between that idea, and the idea that the NK might still be around, might be among their numbers. And in exploring that idea - or any idea, really - a poster is not somehow being insufficiently deferential to "what the story is really about," or whatever.

Sincerely, I have no idea what this argument is--you issue these words as though they are a "correction," but I have no idea what is to be corrected. 

Its not a fight between the two of us - I'm simply arguing against the fairly widespread expectation of Nights King turning up and assuming any real importance in the story as leader of the blue-eyed lot. Conversely I'm holding that if [and its only if] Jon wakes up with starry blue eyes that will be a far more important development than the return of the [Nights] King.

[Black Crow]

53 minutes ago, LordBlakeney said:

Have to agree. @Black Crow seems to find the show anathema and the arguments boil down to rejecting any possibility of NK or WW leader simply because there is a Night King on GOT. 

@Matthew's point that the existence of NK does not negate the centrality of Winterfell's children to the plot seems to go largely unanswered in this back-and-forth, and that smacks of contrarianism for the sake of being contrary.

Emphasis on the NK in the books, along with confirmed skinchanging magic and long-lived beings, elevates potential WW leaders to the realm of possibility, or at the very least should keep us from rejecting the notion out of hand just because we dislike the "mummers version."

The problem is that there is no emphasis on the Nights King in the books and GRRM has warned against attaching significance to him.

I entirely agree that "the existence of NK does not negate the centrality of Winterfell's children to the plot". That was the point I made from the beginning when it was suggested [not by Matthew] that the Nights King wanted Jon; because he is far more important than a shadowy figure out of legend. 

[LynnS]

I'm curious to know if anyone thinks that some of Old Nan's stories are being played out, in an altered form by the Stark kids

[Black Crow]

Probably, though I'm curious about the giants - not Wun Wun but the ones in seven-league boots who live in castles

[Tucu]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm curious to know if anyone thinks that some of Old Nan's stories are being played out, in an altered form by the Stark kids

Not in a strict sense, but Bran is playing the role of the Last Hero and Jon might be following the steps of the Night's King (or the original Kings of Winter)

[SirArthur]

58 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm curious to know if anyone thinks that some of Old Nan's stories are being played out, in an altered form by the Stark kids

If your theory about the Night's King in the Black Gate (and his Other Wife in Whitetree) is correct then there is no need for that. The story can still be true and only the consequences play a role. The important question concerning the NK is more if the NW is named after the NK or the Nk after the NW and what role the Nightfort has to play in that "naming and shaming" game. 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its not a fight between the two of us - I'm simply arguing against the fairly widespread expectation of Nights King turning up and assuming any real importance in the story as leader of the blue-eyed lot. Conversely I'm holding that if [and its only if] Jon wakes up with starry blue eyes that will be a far more important development than the return of the [Nights] King.

Well, that's why I felt confused--we don't disagree that the story is ultimately about the Starks (though I consider the Lannisters and Dany of equal importance), so I don't know why that observation was being presented as though it was a premise that needed to be reasserted; IMO, even in other sections of the forums where discussion of the NK might be far more assertive, and even take his existence as a given, I don't think people are taking for granted that this is still a story that is primarily about its human protagonists--such discussions are an inevitable consequence of the author not having published anything in years, while the show is comparatively "fresh."
______________________

I might also observe that, in discussing what might happen in the text, I'm careful to separate what I think the author should do from what I think will happen, or what is possible.

In that regard, I agree that the NK turning up suddenly and becoming prominent is not ideal, but by that same token, in a story that was to be a coming of age tale about the Starks, Tyrion, and Dany, I don't think it is ideal for the author to have spent so many words on Meereen, Dornish in-fighting, the Iron Islands, etc. IMO, "the NK re-enters the story and becomes plot relevant," as an abstract idea, is not terribly far removed from "Aegon VI re-enters the story, and becomes plot relevant."

Furthermore, I would say that the problems with the theoretical re-appearance of the NK are really problems with the Others themselves, as I attempted to articulate in my criticisms on the prior page: the Others appear and are perceived as inhuman, apocalyptic figures out of antiquity, and GRRM has been so slow to roll out revelations, so slow to incorporate them into the surrounding narrative, that it may be that there is no elegant, satisfying way for him to incorporate them at this point.

In my opinion, the issues with the NK (or any other ancient Stark kings) also apply to the CotF as masters of the Others. In essence, the CotF are figures from antiquity, with limited characterization, little connection to the ongoing political and character stories, that have been inserted into the story quite late in the game.

As a matter of subjective taste - and I'm not proposing a theory here, just throwing out what I would find satisfying - I think the best path for GRRM to tie the Others into all of the other stories would be to reveal that a character (or characters) we already know and are invested in is responsible for their return--which doesn't necessarily imply that said character can control what they have unleashed, only that the timing of the Others' return is not arbitrary, and not rooted in some unresolved business from 8,000 years ago.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm curious to know if anyone thinks that some of Old Nan's stories are being played out, in an altered form by the Stark kids

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145690-heresy-197-the-wit-and-wisdom-of-old-nan/

I know it came up in the above thread, and the example that sticks out in my memory is JNR's interpretation that relates Old Nan's tale of the "man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants" to Arya's time in Harrenhal. 

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

There is no nuance or characterization to the Others, at this point in the story. It's not that the Others are more evil than any of the human characters - and frankly, I would argue that Ramsay and Euron are cartoonish villains that wouldn't be out of place in the worst dreck of the genre - it's that everything about their presentation makes them a High Fantasy evil army.

GRRM has said the Ramsay was created because he was needed for Theon's story.  This is also why I've argued Euron won't be around long.  Both are powerful, evil humans who GRRM tries to make more human, but not with the same level of thought and care as the characters central to the story.

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Consequently, readers (some, anyway) have waited 20 years for GRRM to do something subversive with them, to make them as interesting as the rest of his story, and we're just taking it on faith that he'll stick the landing. And, given infinite time, I'm sure he would...what I'm less confident about is that he actually has a clear plan of how he's going to achieve that, or that GRRM's idea of "nuanced supernatural antagonists" will be, in practice, all that far off from what he's criticizing. 

IMO, the story as envisioned by GRRM in 1993 was far more generic fantasy, even on the political and character journey side of things--Robb, for example, was to die heroically in battle, but not before dealing a maiming blow to the vile villain King Joffrey, whom he will conveniently meet on the battlefield for a duel of kings.

This is genre fiction nonsense, and I think what the 1993 letter highlights is that ASOIAF is a story that was 'saved' by GRRM's gardener process--if GRRM were a Sanderson-esque architect, ASOIAF would just be another forgettable trilogy among many.

My fear is that the Others are a vestige of a less interesting story, and that GRRM himself is struggling with how he's going to elevate them. It may be that whatever motive he arrives at (or already has) for his Others makes them not technically evil, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will be nuanced.

Maybe I'm more optimistic, but I believe this was a story about 5 central characters in 1993, and the Others were invented either as part of the backstory of the history of the world, or as something the main characters interact with.  And I don't think his idea was ever Mighty Morphin Power Rangers Unite against the Evil Night King.

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to this, its all of a parcel with what I've just said above.

In terms of evil armies the blue-eyed lot are far from typical. Yes they kill without mercy, just like everybody else. Its true the dead are raised to kill in their service, but they're dead so what's it matter. They don't torture, maim, humiliate, degrade or enslave the living. A matter of perspective I'll grant you, but there's no sign of a Nights King - or rumpelstiltskin either.

Go back to the synopsis:

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn"

So are the "half -forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others" really the half-forgotten Children of the Forest out of legend, because it they are then we have a much better idea of what's going on; because then you see we have the Ice magic which raises the dead and the old Stark lords [all six of them?] to control them, but all cold servants of the tree-huggers rather than a long dead king out of legend. 

So we are back to the idea that the Children are really the bad guys, either BloodRaven and Leaf are bad guys,or there are several factions of Children.

I am more likely to believe the Children created the Others and either lost control of them, or never intended to control them.

We've covered this before, but has anyone thought about why the Last Hero sought out the Children?  Even if the Children created the Others or knew how to defeat them, the First Men wouldn't necessarily know.  Why not seek out Shadowbinders in Asshai, great Warriors and Kings, Dragonlords, etc?  We don't know what the powers that be were 10,000 years ago, but 3 foot tall hippies that used to stab me with rocks wouldn't be on my short list.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Probably, though I'm curious about the giants - not Wun Wun but the ones in seven-league boots who live in castles

These are stories of the Children of the Forest, who are the protagonists.  The evil giants in Castles are the First Men.

[Tucu]

18 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

So we are back to the idea that the Children are really the bad guys, either BloodRaven and Leaf are bad guys,or there are several factions of Children.

I am more likely to believe the Children created the Others and either lost control of them, or never intended to control them.

We've covered this before, but has anyone thought about why the Last Hero sought out the Children?  Even if the Children created the Others or knew how to defeat them, the First Men wouldn't necessarily know.  Why not seek out Shadowbinders in Asshai, great Warriors and Kings, Dragonlords, etc?  We don't know what the powers that be were 10,000 years ago, but 3 foot tall hippies that used to stab me with rocks wouldn't be on my short list.

I would not call the CoTF/Others evil, just survivors. My view is that some tribes of CoTF allied themselves with some tribes of First Men during the Long Night to fight the resource wars caused by the long winter. The CoTF provided the caves and magic; the First Men provided the strength to fight other men. After the Long Night ended the Wall was built as a reservation for these friendly CoTF; this was forgotten/erased when the Night's King was deposed.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

So we are back to the idea that the Children are really the bad guys, either BloodRaven and Leaf are bad guys,or there are several factions of Children.

I am more likely to believe the Children created the Others and either lost control of them, or never intended to control them.

We've covered this before, but has anyone thought about why the Last Hero sought out the Children?  Even if the Children created the Others or knew how to defeat them, the First Men wouldn't necessarily know.  Why not seek out Shadowbinders in Asshai, great Warriors and Kings, Dragonlords, etc?  We don't know what the powers that be were 10,000 years ago, but 3 foot tall hippies that used to stab me with rocks wouldn't be on my short list.

What we reckoned back in the day was that the chronology may be slightly off. As told the First Men and the Tree-huggers fought, and then made peace, then a totally random event occurred in the shape of the Long Night.

This poses a couple of questions; as told the tree-huggers were losing the war and the Men may not have needed a peace treaty. Years of peace and amity followed, but come the Long Night they were nowhere to be found.

Hence quite an old heresy that the tree huggers were losing the war and brought down the Long Night, just as they had brought down the Hammer - or the Night was a consequence of their creating the Wall [with blood] and then the Last Hero went looking for them to cry pax. 

This worked to a degree, we still have dodgy seasons, but the blue-eyed lot may have been cut adrift by the Tree-huggers, hence their being all bitter and twisted

 

[JNR]

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ha, maybe, but then he edits a Wildcard book and remembers that his time is being spent on more worthwhile pursuits.

Heh.

I wonder if you took a poll of F/SF fans worldwide and asked "What is Robert Jordan best known for?" how many would say "He wrote Wheel of Time," and how many would say "He never finished Wheel of Time." 

Every time GRRM does an interview and says in fifty years nobody will care how long each book took, I wonder if he realizes that (unless something changes) nobody will care about the last book at all... because it will never have been written.   And if it's never written, odds are not good anybody is going to be reading the series.

[Brad Stark]

17 minutes ago, JNR said:

Heh.

I wonder if you took a poll of F/SF fans worldwide and asked "What is Robert Jordan best known for?" how many would say "He wrote Wheel of Time," and how many would say "He never finished Wheel of Time." 

Every time GRRM does an interview and says in fifty years nobody will care how long each book took, I wonder if he realizes that (unless something changes) nobody will care about the last book at all... because it will never have been written.   And if it's never written, odds are not good anybody is going to be reading the series.

Be careful, it is easy for these sort of conversations to become negative towards GRRM.  He doesn't owe us anything, and gave us more than the $100 or so we spent on his books.

I disagree about no one reading the series.  I read The Canterbury Tales almost 600 years after Chaucer died, and GRRM is much farther along.  ASOIAF will stand as one of the most influential series of all times in this genera, even unfinished, possibly even the 2nd most influential author (after Tolkien).  And if GRRM dies first, it will eventually be finished by someone else.  We will lose a lot of the details and his writing style, as we did with "A Memory of Light", but all the questions central to the story will be answered, and the plot will play out as the author intended.

[JNR]

On 10/18/2017 at 0:55 AM, Matthew. said:

In short, if the series is never finished, then the Others as written are a bad cliche.

True.  

Well, conceivably he might explain them in TWOW, but I doubt it.

[JNR]

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm curious to know if anyone thinks that some of Old Nan's stories are being played out, in an altered form by the Stark kids

I've been suggesting this for years.  

For instance:

Quote

Old Nan told him a story about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck down by lightning, and how afterward the crows came to peck out his eyes.

That is almost certainly about Bran, who is also the "him" in that sentence.  Bran's paralysis stems from the fact that he climbs too high and is struck down (albeit not by lightning), and afterward he has a coma dream in which a three-eyed crow tries to force his third eye open.  Pretty blatant stuff.

I also note that the person who remembers Old Nan's story about the hero who is trapped in a dark castle by evil giants before cleverly escaping is Arya... who subsequently in the same book (ACOK) is trapped in a dark castle (Harrenhal) by "giants" (including the Mountain) before cleverly escaping (by tricking Jaqen into doing her bidding).

[JNR]

11 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

He doesn't owe us anything, and gave us more than the $100 or so we spent on his books.

He said countless times he would finish the series.  He also said he wasn't a liar.  Those are both objective facts.

12 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

And if GRRM dies first, it will eventually be finished by someone else.

No, he has flatly denied this.  His position is that if he doesn't finish it, no one will.

Quote

 

Tad: Another question from the audience -- would you allow someone else to finish for you and who do you think could do the job well? [jokes] That was a suggestion from K J Anderson – thanks, Kevin, for the question!!!

GRRM: No one is going to finish for me. But if I’ll be dead…. No. I intend to finish this for myself.

So.  We shall see.