Is Craster a Casterly? - Now with plot-relevance!

[Lollygag]

Casterly Rock and the Palace of Love & Sorrows.

Tyrion’s first glimpse of the what used to be the Palace of Love is much like Casterly Rock being a hill rising from the water, then a colossal rock. It’s covered in grey moss and grey fog and is connected to rot (shit) and spears. It’s first described as a hill which often accompanies these groups of things: Craster’s is on a hill with a river of sorts from the profuse rain (linked to fog here?) and the bastard name of the Westerlands is Hill.  Like so many things Lannister, it is two-faced being both the Palace of Love and the Palace of Sorrows as is Casterly Rock itself being both golden and shitty at once. Tyrion connects the fog directly to Tywin.

 

 ADWD Tyrion V

All Tyrion could see was something massive rising from the river, humped and ominous. He took it for a hill looming above a wooded island, or some colossal rock overgrown with moss and ferns and hidden by the fog. As the Shy Maid drew nearer, though, the shape of it came clearer. A wooden keep could be seen beside the water, rotted and overgrown. Slender spires took form above it, some of them snapped off like broken spears. Roofless towers appeared and disappeared, thrusting blindly upward. Halls and galleries drifted past: graceful buttresses, delicate arches, fluted columns, terraces and bowers.

All ruined, all desolate, all fallen.

The grey moss grew thickly here, covering the fallen stones in great mounds and bearding all the towers. Black vines crept in and out of windows, through doors and over archways, up the sides of high stone walls. The fog concealed three-quarters of the palace, but what they glimpsed was more than enough for Tyrion to know that this island fastness had been ten times the size of the Red Keep once and a hundred times more beautiful. He knew where he was. "The Palace of Love," he said softly.

"That was the Rhoynar name," said Haldon Halfmaester, "but for a thousand years this has been the Palace of Sorrow."

The ruin was sad enough, but knowing what it had been made it even sadder. There was laughter here once, Tyrion thought. There were gardens bright with flowers and fountains sparkling golden in the sun. These steps once rang to the sound of lovers' footsteps, and beneath that broken dome marriages beyond count were sealed with a kiss. His thoughts turned to Tysha, who had so briefly been his lady wife. It was Jaime, he thought, despairing. He was my own blood, my big strong brother. When I was small he brought me toys, barrel hoops and blocks and a carved wooden lion. He gave me my first pony and taught me how to ride him. When he said that he had bought you for me, I never doubted him. Why would I? He was Jaime, and you were just some girl who'd played a part. I had feared it from the start, from the moment you first smiled at me and let me touch your hand. My own father could not love me. Why would you if not for gold?

Through the long grey fingers of the fog, he heard again the deep shuddering thrum of a bowstring snapping taut, the grunt Lord Tywin made as the quarrel took him beneath the belly, the slap of cheeks on stone as he sat back down to die. "Wherever whores go," he said. And where is that? Tyrion wanted to ask him. Where did Tysha go, Father? "How much more of this fog must we endure?"

 

 

WOIAF: In 255 AC, Lord Tytos celebrated the birth of his fourth son at Casterly Rock, but his joy soon turned to sorrow. His beloved wife, the Lady Jeyne, never recovered from her labor, and died within a moon's turn of Gerion Lannister's birth. Her loss was a shattering blow to his lordship. From that day forth, no one ever again called him the Laughing Lion.

 

ADWD Tyrion VIII

And perhaps he was not so wrong. Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

Gerion has a daughter named Joy.

 

ADWD Tyrion III:
"As you say. If we encounter this Lady Korra, I will just slip into a skirt and say that I am Cersei, the famous bearded beauty of King's Landing."

This time Duck laughed, and Haldon said, "What a droll little fellow you are, Yollo. They say that the Shrouded Lord will grant a boon to any man who can make him laugh. Perhaps His Grey Grace will choose you to ornament his stony court."

Duck glanced at his companion uneasily. "It's not good to jape of that one, not when we're so near the Rhoyne. He hears."

"Wisdom from a duck," said Haldon. "I beg your pardon, Yollo. You need not look so pale, I was only playing with you. The Prince of Sorrows does not bestow his grey kiss lightly."

His grey kiss. The thought made his flesh crawl. Death had lost its terror for Tyrion Lannister, but greyscale was another matter. The Shrouded Lord is just a legend, he told himself, no more real than the ghost of Lann the Clever that some claim haunts Casterly Rock. Even so, he held his tongue.

 

 

[Lollygag]

Consistent with all of the references of Tyrion cleaning up shit, here he has no nose for the sorcery linked to that fog (shit?). Perhaps implying immunity? I suspect that it's foreshadowing that Tyrion's job will be to keep the fires burning and that Aegon will clear the path. 

Sorcery especially of the necromancy variety is linked to the Westerlands hence implying a connection to Casterly Rock per above.

ADWD Tyrion V

"Frightened of a little fog?" mocked Tyrion, though in truth there was quite a lot of fog. At the prow of the Shy Maid, Young Griff stood with the third pole, to push them away from hazards as they loomed up through the mists. The lanterns had been lit fore and aft, but the fog was so thick that all the dwarf could see from amidships was a light floating out ahead of him and another following behind. His own task was to tend the brazier and make certain that the fire did not go out.

"This is no common fog, Hugor Hill," Ysilla insisted. "It stinks of sorcery, as you would know if you had a nose to smell it. Many a voyager has been lost here, poleboats and pirates and great river galleys too. They wander forlorn through the mists, searching for a sun they cannot find until madness or hunger claim their lives. There are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls below the water."

...

"We'd do well not to breathe the fog either," said Haldon. "Garin's Curse is all about us."

The only way not to breathe the fog is not to breathe. "Garin's Curse is only greyscale," said Tyrion.

 

[Rhae_Valarie]

On 10/18/2017 at 6:27 PM, Lollygag said:

So I’ve just come across some information which lets me just get to the point as to why it’s significant if Craster is a Casterly. Actually, Craster was a tangent on the Casterlys and Lannisters in general. I’ll have a lot more backup for this in the next post which also expands into other things.

Jaime dreams of creatures that want him under the cold, dark water in the caverns under Casterly Rock. Casterly Rock is described as “thrice the height of the Wall or the Hightower in Oldtown. Almost two leagues  long from west to east…” so it’s entirely believable that things exist well hidden deep in Casterly Rock. Cowled is a synonym for shrouded in some contexts.

Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. "

He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down.

...

Crouching, listening, Jaime moved in a circle, ready for anything that might come out of the darkness. The water flowed into his boots, ankle deep and bitterly cold. Beware the water, he told himself. There may be creatures living in it, hidden deeps . . .

Notice here “Hooded” (another word for shrouded in some contexts), “necromancy” and “return from the grave” and “thralls”. Also note that Loreon is the first King. Given how people like to King themselves, he likely doesn't post date Lann and the Casterlys by much. Human thralls were kept at that time, but given that he was a powerful necromancer and what he did with the Lions, I wonder if his thralls were not something else.

Lann the Clever never called himself a king, as best we know, though some tales told centuries later have conferred that style on him posthumously.  The first true Lannister king we know of is Loreon Lannister, also known as Loreon the Lion (a number of Lannisters through the centuries have been dubbed ‘the Lion’ or ‘the Golden,’ for understandable reasons), who made the Reynes of Castamere his vassals by wedding a daughter of that House, and defeated the Hooded King, Morgon Banefort, and his thralls in a war that lasted twenty years.

King Morgon was supposedly a necromancer of terrible power, and it is written that as he lay dying, he told the Lannisters who had slain him (amongst them three of Loreon’s own sons) that he would return from the grave to wreak vengeance upon them one and all.  To prevent that, Loreon had Morgon’s body hacked into a hundred pieces and fed to his lions.  In a grisly aftermath, however, those selfsame lions broke loose two years later in the bowels of Casterly Rock, and slew the king’s sons, just as the Hooded King had promised.

Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is."

Apparently the Westerlands Chapter in TWOIAF is abridged from this full version on GRRM’s website.
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/

 

Thanks to the other posters on this thread as their mental meanderings helped greatly in filling in some holes! I’m guessing that this goes back to some connection with the Rhoyne. The Casterlys had reason to visit the Rhoyne after their gold discovery as the Rhoynar were expert metal workers. Garin’s curse of greyscale was ~700BC, long after the Casterlys, but we don’t know that greyscale (or something similar) didn’t exist long before that point or that it wasn’t used as a threat. At the same time the Valyrians made a truce with the Rhoyne instead of fire-and-blooding them like everyone else, they were avoiding the Casterlys and then later the Lannisters while we have reports of hooded lords who can perform necromancy and control thralls in the Westerlands. Given Tywin’s and Craster’s connections to “foul humors” and rain, it all sounds Shrouded Lord-ish.

The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them.

TWOIAF—Ancient History: Valyria’s Children

In short, the names and numbers of the peoples who fell to Valyria are unknown to us today. What records the Valyrians kept of their conquests were largely destroyed by the Doom, and few if any of these peoples documented their own histories in a way that survived the Freehold's dominion.

A few, such as the Rhoynar, lasted against the tide for centuries, or even millennia. The Rhoynar, who founded great cities along the Rhoyne, were said to be the first to learn the art of iron-making.

ADWD Tyrion V

"The conquerors did not believe either, Hugor Hill," said Ysilla. "The men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts."

Valyria initially believed in the curses but later did not? Is that what restricted them at first?

 

Wild speculation here: it’s mentioned with the Rhoynar’s resistance against Valyria that they learned iron-making. Iron is placed on the statues at Winterell, Ironwoods surround Crasters’ keep, Ironwood doors on Winterfell’s crypt doors. Perhaps this is when the greyscale originated, or at least a predecessor and iron-making came along with it to contain and control it?

 

Notice Jaime’s connection to hoods, stone, water, fish, fishscales, and snow/all white in the quotes below. He’s a stone-like watcher of the dead, hooded, on chilly, dreary rainy day in a place that stinks (foul humors linked to the Shrouded Lord). He wears scales like Rhoynish armor and also mother-of-pearl. He's linked to snow and all white not unlike an Other. Also note another passage where Jaime sees a dead man he doesn’t recognize in the water along with a Tully trout. He saw a dead man in the water and wondered if he knew him. His Lannister hair disappears under the water as it’s cut off. He then looks at himself in the water and doesn’t recognize himself.

 

AFFC Cersei II

Under the Great Sept's lofty dome of glass and gold and crystal, Lord Tywin Lannister's body rested upon a stepped marble bier. At its head Jaime stood at vigil, his one good hand curled about the hilt of a tall golden greatsword whose point rested on the floor. The hooded cloak he wore was as white as freshly fallen snow, and the scales of his long hauberk were mother-of-pearl chased with gold. Lord Tywin would have wanted him in Lannister gold and crimson, she thought. It always angered him to see Jaime all in white.

She glanced at Jaime. Her twin stood as if he had been carved from stone, and would not meet her eyes.

 

TWOIAF Ten Thousand Ships

The Rhoynish warrior with his silver-scaled armor, fish-head helm, tall spear, and turtle-shell shield was esteemed and feared by all those who faced him in battle. It was said the Mother Rhoyne herself whispered to her children of every threat, that the Rhoynar princes wielded strange, uncanny powers, that Rhoynish women fought as fiercely as Rhoynish men, and that their cities were protected by "watery walls" that would rise to drown any foe.

 

ASOS Jaime I

Birds flew overhead, or cried out from the trees along the shore, and Jaime glimpsed silvery fish knifing through the water. Tully trout, there's a bad omen, he thought, until he saw a worse—one of the floating logs they passed turned out to be a dead man, bloodless and swollen. His cloak was tangled in the roots of a fallen tree, its color unmistakably Lannister crimson. He wondered if the corpse had been someone he knew.

...

Cleos hacked away manfully, sawing and ripping his way through the mats and tossing the hair over the side. The golden curls floated on the surface of the water, gradually falling astern. As the tangles vanished, a louse went crawling down his neck.

...

The reflection in the water was a man he did not know. Not only was he bald, but he looked as though he had aged five years in that dungeon; his face was thinner, with hollows under his eyes and lines he did not remember. I don't look as much like Cersei this way. She'll hate that.

In the passage above where Jaime is described not unlike the (hooded) Shrouded Lord, his gold sword is prominent. Valyria’s sorcerers prophesied that Casterly Rock gold (not silver) would end them. Craster wears a gold ring around his wrist and asks for an axe with gold inlay. Garin was hung in a gold cage when he issued his curse.

 

It’s long been speculated that the stonemen, greyscale and the stone statues of Winterfell (and the stonemen of Casterly Rock?) are tied to the Others and it has to do with bloodlines. Hence Craster’s relationship with the Others. Val says that greyscale is stronger on the other (Others’) side of the Wall.

 

ADWD Jon XI

Once outside and well away from the queen's men, Val gave vent to her wroth. "You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs. And the daughter … her face …"

"Greyscale."

"The grey death is what we call it."

"It is not always mortal in children."

"North of the Wall it is.

 

This also has interesting implications for Pycelle. He was exposed to the grey plague as a child. He does not say whether he caught it or not, though the hint is there. If Pycelle caught the grey plague as a child and is now immune and the Lannisters have greyscale or something similar at Casterly Rock, then Pycelle’s value to the Lannisters is clear. Note that Pycelle links Tywin’s doing what was needed to Quenton Hightower’s doing what was needed against the grey plague for the reader hinting that there was more to Tywin’s ruthlessness than it appears. 

AFFC Jaime I

Without his beard, Pycelle looked not only old, but feeble. Shaving him was the cruelest thing Tyrion could have done, thought Jaime, who knew what it was to lose a part of yourself, the part that made you who you were. Pycelle's beard had been magnificent, white as snow and soft as lambswool, a luxuriant growth that covered cheeks and chin and flowed down almost to his belt. The Grand Maester had been wont to stroke it when he pontificated. It had given him an air of wisdom, and concealed all manner of unsavory things: the loose skin dangling beneath the old man's jaw, the small querulous mouth and missing teeth, warts and wrinkles and age spots too numerous to count. Though Pycelle was trying to regrow what he had lost, he was failing. Only wisps and tufts sprouted from his wrinkled cheeks and weak chin, so thin that Jaime could see the splotchy pink skin beneath.

"Ser Jaime, I have seen terrible things in my time," the old man said. "Wars, battles, murders most foul . . . I was a boy in Oldtown when the grey plague took half the city and three-quarters of the Citadel. Lord Hightower burned every ship in port, closed the gates, and commanded his guards to slay all those who tried to flee, be they men, women, or babes in arms. They killed him when the plague had run its course. On the very day he reopened the port, they dragged him from his horse and slit his throat, and his young son's as well. To this day the ignorant in Oldtown will spit at the sound of his name, but Quenton Hightower did what was needed. Your father was that sort of man as well. A man who did what was needed."

ADWD Tyrion V

Maesters and septons alike agreed that children marked by greyscale could never be touched by the rarer mortal form of the affliction, nor by its terrible swift cousin, the grey plague. "Damp is said to be the culprit," he said. "Foul humors in the air. Not curses."

I can’t say exactly what the plot relevance might be if Craster is a Casterly because I can’t say exactly what greyscale and the Others might have in common, though they do seem connected. The Lannisters and Craster and Casterly are all linked to greyscale and Shrouded Lord things like rain/water, damp/chill, shit/”foul humors”, creatures in dark frigid water, hooded necromancers, Craster’s rumored association with demons, his confirmed association with the Others, and it’s all looped into why the greyscale is always deadly north of the Wall.

 

First of all, your theory is amazing. Great job researching, I agree that Craster is a Casterly. However, as far as plot significance, I think it has more to do with Craster's sons than Craster himself. Reading the series, I can't help but feel like little Monster and Aemon Steelsong are both important, but Monster is the more important of the two, because he is the only living brother to the White Walkers. Especially with all the Casterly connections to necromancy, the undead and pale things that you point out here. If Craster is indeed a Casterly, has his family been connected to the Others for generations? Could that have anything to do with their disappearance? And what does that mean for both the sons that Craster gave to the White Walkers and little Monster? Maybe it isn't a coincidence that Craster ended up making his strange deal with the Others.

Just some food for though, lol. It might help you figure out the plot significance of this theory, because I feel like you are definitely on to something!!!!

 

And one other thing I almost forgot about! The Casterlys aren't the only ones to mysteriously disappear from Casterly Rock. Rohanne Webber disappears as well, and I've long privately suspected that she might have ended up North of the Wall as well. In fact, I feel she might by Ygritte's ancestor. 

Firstly, compare their physical appearances. Rohanne is described as having long red hair, freckles, green eyes, a snub nose, and as being quite short. She is a talented archer -- in fact, that's how we first meet her. Her personality is fiery and strong, as well. Ygritte shares many of those exact qualities -- she is short, has fiery red hair, a pug nose, a strong personality, and is a talented archer. (Really, it's the similar shape of their noses that first struck me as suspicious).

And while it might seem unlikely, Rohanne couldn't have just dropped off the face of the Earth. She had to go somewhere. Also, the Dunk and Egg novels seem to be shifting to the North, with the next book called the She-wolves of Winterfell and Bran having seen a vision of a knight that is probably Dunk standing in front of the Winterfell Heart tree. It's possible that for some reason Rohanne fled North and either she or one of her descendants ended up with the Wildlings, leading eventually to Ygritte. If this is true, it could be a symbolic parallel to the Casterlys, or at least set a precedent for Craster being a Casterly. Maybe the next Dunk and Egg novel will provide some new information!!

[Lollygag]

5 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

First of all, your theory is amazing. Great job researching, I agree that Craster is a Casterly. However, as far as plot significance, I think it has more to do with Craster's sons than Craster himself. Reading the series, I can't help but feel like little Monster and Aemon Steelsong are both important, but Monster is the more important of the two, because he is the only living brother to the White Walkers. Especially with all the Casterly connections to necromancy, the undead and pale things that you point out here. If Craster is indeed a Casterly, has his family been connected to the Others for generations? Could that have anything to do with their disappearance? And what does that mean for both the sons that Craster gave to the White Walkers and little Monster? Maybe it isn't a coincidence that Craster ended up making his strange deal with the Others.

Just some food for though, lol. It might help you figure out the plot significance of this theory, because I feel like you are definitely on to something!!!!

 

And one other thing I almost forgot about! The Casterlys aren't the only ones to mysteriously disappear from Casterly Rock. Rohanne Webber disappears as well, and I've long privately suspected that she might have ended up North of the Wall as well. In fact, I feel she might by Ygritte's ancestor. 

Firstly, compare their physical appearances. Rohanne is described as having long red hair, freckles, green eyes, a snub nose, and as being quite short. She is a talented archer -- in fact, that's how we first meet her. Her personality is fiery and strong, as well. Ygritte shares many of those exact qualities -- she is short, has fiery red hair, a pug nose, a strong personality, and is a talented archer. (Really, it's the similar shape of their noses that first struck me as suspicious).

And while it might seem unlikely, Rohanne couldn't have just dropped off the face of the Earth. She had to go somewhere. Also, the Dunk and Egg novels seem to be shifting to the North, with the next book called the She-wolves of Winterfell and Bran having seen a vision of a knight that is probably Dunk standing in front of the Winterfell Heart tree. It's possible that for some reason Rohanne fled North and either she or one of her descendants ended up with the Wildlings, leading eventually to Ygritte. If this is true, it could be a symbolic parallel to the Casterlys, or at least set a precedent for Craster being a Casterly. Maybe the next Dunk and Egg novel will provide some new information!!

I very much agree that Monster especially will important. I’m just not sure how yet so I’ve not mentioned him. Ygritte makes the cryptic statement “Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse." Of course, she gives no further explanation, but I suspect that this is the tie between Craster (and those of Whitetree?) and the Others who seem connected to the stone men of Garin’s curse. Gold is often associated with curses, so this is my leading theory as to the nature of the curse. I’m also considering that there might be more to Garin’s Curse than what we’ve been told. If any wildling could sacrifice in order to not be killed by the Others, some of them would which leads me to believe that Craster is different (as in cursed). Taking a closer look at Monster to see if anything stands out is a very good idea. Thanks!

That’s a very interesting direction you’re taking with Rohanne Webber. I’d add that “You know nothing Jon Snow” is not unlike “Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall”.  There’s a symbolic connection at least. 

There’s several references to disappearing Lannisters. Tyrion notes that Lannister “drooling cousins” are known to disappear into Casterly Rock. In Jaime’s dream, his family says that beneath Casterly Rock is Jaime’s place, not theirs. Where do whores go? Tyrion makes a joke to Tysha about disobedient servants disappearing into Casterly Rock. This would play into the themes of sacrificing one’s children (or young kin) which is so prevalent with Craster and the Lannisters who are cavalier about putting their children in harms’ way if there is something to be gained from it. Jaime’s dream hints at sacrifice as this “darkness” is Jaime’s and not Tywin’s indicating it’s not about being heir to Casterly Rock.

ADWD Tyrion XII

"… and every family has its drooling cousins." Tyrion signed another note. The parchment crinkled crisply as he slid it toward the paymaster. "There are cells down in the bowels of Casterly Rock where my lord father kept the worst of ours."

 ASOS Jaime VI

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they'd made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

"Sister, why has Father brought us here?"

"Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.

 

But I agree, it’s also worth considering that she went North. I keep thinking about Craster’s twisted gold ring (bracelet) and I suspect it’s quite important. Being twisted, it may more than one ring. The 12 Labors of Hercules keeps arising in conjunction with this thread, so following along with that, you might consider that Rohanne might have sought this ring. Given that it’s the only sign of riches around Craster who is otherwise disgustingly unkept, it seems like an heirloom to me. I’ll be paying much closer attention to Rohanne on re-reads. She was ~45 when she disappeared so it would be unlikely but not impossible that she had more children.  I think we are told some things about other characters through their parallels, so maybe there are hints as to Rohanne’s fate in a closer re-read of Ygritte.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/apples.html

 

 

Tywin took Ilyn's sword Ice to make Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper. That leads me to believe that Ilyn's new sword seen at the Purple Wedding was from Tywin. Note that it has some serious Othery/North of the Wall traits. To what ends? No idea. 

Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull.

Sansa stirred in her seat. "What sword is that?"

Tyrion's eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn's greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. "What has Ser Ilyn done with my father's sword?"

I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king.

 

[Lollygag]

Tywin’s Gold-Ring Eyes, Cold, and Child Kinslaying (sacrifice?)

In keeping with the sacrifice of one’s own children for wealth and power (or to not have your children compromise your wealth and power), notice how Tywin’s eyes are described as gold or gold-flecked in conjunction with his hostile feelings toward his children or grandchildren in Joff’s case.  One could well-liken Tywin's gold-flecked irises to 2 rings akin to Craster’s twisted golden ring (rings?) worn about his wrist. Note that Tywin is often described as cold at the same time. Tyrion, who Tywin has already attempted to kill, gets Tywin’s gold stare most, followed by Joff, then Cersei. I can’t find any cold, gold eyes from Tywin for Jaime. I suppose this was because Jaime was his favorite and the symbols point to Tywin's gold eyes as the intent to kill or at least the desire to kill his children or grandchildren should they become a liability.

I’m now convinced that Tywin was part of the plan to kill Joff and that Tyrion's framing was part of the plan all along.

 

ADWD Tyrion III (about JonCon)

I do not like his eyes, Tyrion reflected, when the sellsword sat down across from him in the dimness of the boat's interior, with a scarred plank table and a tallow candle between them. They were ice blue, pale, cold. The dwarf misliked pale eyes. Lord Tywin's eyes had been pale green and flecked with gold.

AGOT Tyrion VII

"Who might you be?" Lord Tywin asked, cool as snow.

 

AGOT Tyrion VII (Tyrion finds out that Tyrion has staged his death in battle in the next chapter)

Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, was in his middle fifties, yet hard as a man of twenty. Even seated, he was tall, with long legs, broad shoulders, a flat stomach. His thin arms were corded with muscle. When his once-thick golden hair had begun to recede, he had commanded his barber to shave his head; Lord Tywin did not believe in half measures. He razored his lip and chin as well, but kept his sidewhiskers, two great thickets of wiry golden hair that covered most of his cheeks from ear to jaw. His eyes were a pale green, flecked with gold. A fool more foolish than most had once jested that even Lord Tywin's shit was flecked with gold. Some said the man was still alive, deep in the bowels of Casterly Rock.

…

"We will ride with you, lion lord," Chella daughter of Cheyk agreed, "but only if your halfman son goes with us. He has bought his breath with promises. Until we hold the steel he has pledged us, his life is ours."

Lord Tywin turned his gold-flecked eyes on his son.

"Joy," Tyrion said with a resigned smile.

 

 

AGOT Tyrion VIII

He left the living to look after the dead, sent Bronn to take charge of his captive knight, and went alone in search of his father. Lord Tywin was seated by the river, sipping wine from a jeweled cup as his squire undid the fastenings on his breastplate. "A fine victory," Ser Kevan said when he saw Tyrion. "Your wild men fought well."

His father's eyes were on him, pale green flecked with gold, so cool they gave Tyrion a chill. "Did that surprise you, Father?" he asked. "Did it upset your plans? We were supposed to be butchered, were we not?"

Lord Tywin drained his cup, his face expressionless. "I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I'd hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan's pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve."

"And you thought it best to place me in the midst of this carnage, yet keep me ignorant of your plans."

"A feigned rout is less convincing," his father said, "and I am not inclined to trust my plans to a man who consorts with sellswords and savages."

"A pity my savages ruined your dance." Tyrion pulled off his steel gauntlet and let it fall to the ground, wincing at the pain that stabbed up his arm.

 

AGOT Tyrion IX

"Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council—our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? Whose notion was it to make this Janos Slynt a lord? The man's father was a butcher, and they grant him Harrenhal. Harrenhal, that was the seat of kings! Not that he will ever set foot inside it, if I have a say. I am told he took a bloody spear for his sigil. A bloody cleaver would have been my choice." His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. "And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench." He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false …"

ASOS Tyrion I

"The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It's past time. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir."

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known. "Why?" he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

 

ASOS Tyrion III

"We have no lack of foes," said Ser Kevan Lannister. "If the Eyrie can be kept out of the war, all to the good. I am of a mind to see what Lord Petyr can accomplish."

Ser Kevan was his brother's vanguard in council, Tyrion knew from long experience; he never had a thought that Lord Tywin had not had first. It has all been settled beforehand, he concluded, and this discussion's no more than show.

The sheep were bleating their agreement, unaware of how neatly they'd been shorn, so it fell to Tyrion to object. "How will the crown pay its debts without Lord Petyr? He is our wizard of coin, and we have no one to replace him."

Littlefinger smiled. "My little friend is too kind. All I do is count coppers, as King Robert used to say. Any clever tradesman could do as well . . . and a Lannister, blessed with the golden touch of Casterly Rock, will no doubt far surpass me."

"A Lannister?" Tyrion had a bad feeling about this.

Lord Tywin's gold-flecked eyes met his son's mismatched ones. "You are admirably suited to the task, I believe."

"Indeed!" Ser Kevan said heartily. "I've no doubt you'll make a splendid master of coin, Tyrion."

...

Tyrion watched his father closely. There's something he's not saying. He remembered those important letters Lord Tywin had been writing, the night Tyrion had demanded Casterly Rock. What was it he said? Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens . . . He wondered who the "better option" was, and what sort of price he was demanding.

...

"Master of coin?" said Tyrion in a thin strained voice. "Whose notion was that, pray?"

"Lord Petyr's," his father said, "but it serves us well to have the treasury in the hands of a Lannister. You have asked for important work. Do you fear you might be incapable of the task?"

"No," said Tyrion, "I fear a trap. Littlefinger is subtle and ambitious. I do not trust him. Nor should you."

 ...

"Then open your eyes. The Stark girl is young, nubile, tractable, of the highest birth, and still a maid. She is not uncomely. Why would you hesitate?"

Why indeed? "A quirk of mine. Strange to say, I would prefer a wife who wants me in her bed."

"If you think your whores want you in their bed, you are an even greater fool than I suspected," said Lord Tywin. "You disappoint me, Tyrion. I had hoped this match would please you."

"Yes, we all know how important my pleasure is to you, Father. But there's more to this. The key to the north, you say? The Greyjoys hold the north now, and King Balon has a daughter. Why Sansa Stark, and not her?" He looked into his father's cool green eyes with their bright flecks of gold.

 

 

ASOS Tyrion VI

Joffrey had that sullen, sulky look he got. Cersei had him firmly by the shoulder, but perhaps she should have had him by the throat. The boy surprised them all. Instead of scuttling safely back under his rock, Joff drew himself up defiantly and said, "You talk about Aerys, Grandfather, but you were scared of him."

Oh, my, hasn't this gotten interesting? Tyrion thought.

Lord Tywin studied his grandchild in silence, gold flecks shining in his pale green eyes. "Joffrey, apologize to your grandfather," said Cersei.

He wrenched free of her. "Why should I? Everyone knows it's true. My father won all the battles. He killed Prince Rhaegar and took the crown, while your father was hiding under Casterly Rock." The boy gave his grandfather a defiant look. "A strong king acts boldly, he doesn't just talk."

"Thank you for that wisdom, Your Grace," Lord Tywin said, with a courtesy so cold it was like to freeze their ears off. "Ser Kevan, I can see the king is tired. Please see him safely back to his bedchamber. Pycelle, perhaps some gentle potion to help His Grace sleep restfully?"

"Dreamwine, my lord?"

"I don't want any dreamwine," Joffrey insisted.

Lord Tywin would have paid more heed to a mouse squeaking in the corner. "Dreamwine will serve. Cersei, Tyrion, remain."

 

ASOS Tyrion X

Oswald Kettleblack was the first to laugh. Boros and Meryn joined in, then Cersei, Ser Loras, and more lords and ladies than he could count. The sudden gale of mirth made the rafters ring and shook the Iron Throne. "It's true," Shae protested. "My giant of Lannister." The laughter swelled twice as loud. Their mouths were twisted in merriment, their bellies shook. Some laughed so hard that snot flew from their nostrils.

I saved you all, Tyrion thought. I saved this vile city and all your worthless lives. There were hundreds in the throne room, every one of them laughing but his father. Or so it seemed. Even the Red Viper chortled, and Mace Tyrell looked like to bust a gut, but Lord Tywin Lannister sat between them as if made of stone, his fingers steepled beneath his chin.

Tyrion pushed forward. "MY LORDS!" he shouted. He had to shout, to have any hope of being heard.

His father raised a hand. Bit by bit, the hall grew silent.

"Get this lying whore out of my sight," said Tyrion, "and I will give you your confession."

Lord Tywin nodded, gestured. Shae looked half in terror as the gold cloaks formed up around her. Her eyes met Tyrion's as they marched her from the wall. Was it shame he saw there, or fear? He wondered what Cersei had promised her. You will get the gold or jewels, whatever it was you asked for, he thought as he watched her back recede, but before the moon has turned she'll have you entertaining the gold cloaks in their barracks.

Tyrion stared up at his father's hard green eyes with their flecks of cold bright gold. "Guilty," he said, "so guilty. Is that what you wanted to hear?"

 

AFFC Cersei II

The silent sisters had armored Lord Tywin as if to fight some final battle. He wore his finest plate, heavy steel enameled a deep, dark crimson, with gold inlay on his gauntlets, greaves, and breastplate. His rondels were golden sunbursts; a golden lioness crouched upon each shoulder; a maned lion crested the greathelm beside his head. Upon his chest lay a longsword in a gilded scabbard studded with rubies, his hands folded about its hilt in gloves of gilded mail. Even in death his face is noble, she thought, although the mouth . . . The corners of her father's lips curved upward ever so slightly, giving him a look of vague bemusement. That should not be. She blamed Pycelle; he should have told the silent sisters that Lord Tywin Lannister never smiled. The man is as useless as nipples on a breastplate. That half smile made Lord Tywin seem less fearful, somehow. That, and the fact that his eyes were closed. Her father's eyes had always been unsettling; pale green, almost luminous, flecked with gold. His eyes could see inside you, could see how weak and worthless and ugly you were down deep. When he looked at you, you knew.

 

[Lollygag]

21 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Quote

I suspect old traditions one hasn’t been able to move past for some reason are portrayed as shit and piss sometimes when those traditions are things one would wish to move on and not stick around. As such, the weirwood being a container of the past might be likened to a privy, especially if that past isn’t so pleasant and not as gone as one would wish.

Think of a Port-a-Potty at festival times.

I love your explanation, Lolly!  The weirwood remembers. It is the rejected, yet indelible, Shadow of the collective unconscious, as described by Jung. GRRM is alluding to this idea, e.g. in the choice of the name "Riverrun", which, as @Daendrew followed by @sweetsunray have highlighted, is a reference to the first word of James Joyce's classic 'Finnegans Wake', linking up with the last sentence of the novel, to give:

a way a lone a last a loved a long the / riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

I won't parse the whole passage, suffice to note that among the many layered meanings of 'commodious', a commode is a toilet, and 'commodious recirculation' is therefore a description of the polluted river as a sewer system -- with the ultimate message being that the vicious cycle of history has much in common with a cess pool, in which we all float like turds, carried by the current.

Think of the sludgy brown mudflats fed by the river at the Quiet Isle, which receives, and regurgitates all things, corpses and gems alike (Seams' buries/rubies wordplay applies).  Not coincidentally, the Azor Ahai trickster, naughty greenseer figure, Tyrion is Master of Sewers, served with ingeniously unblocking the 'bowels' of Casterly Rock. Make of that what you will.

GRRM is also making a comment on how humans frequently treat other human beings like shit. He is a cynical romantic -- like Jaime.

I just wanted to expand on the rivers connection which you made as I think it's getting a thorough treatment in the books. I'm still a bit unclear as to how it connects to the weirwoods, but it definitely does seem to. The literal and figurative shittiness of Craster's is highlighted several times in combination with profuse amounts of water which turn into shit-sludge and foul rivers. 

ACOK Jon III

He had never thought to find a stone castle on the far side of the Wall, but he had pictured some sort of motte-and-bailey with a wooden palisade and a timber tower keep. What they found instead was a midden heap, a pigsty, an empty sheepfold, and a windowless daub-and-wattle hall scarce worthy of the name. It was long and low, chinked together from logs and roofed with sod. The compound stood atop a rise too modest to name a hill, surrounded by an earthen dike. Brown rivulets flowed down the slope where the rain had eaten gaping holes in the defenses, to join a rushing brook that curved around to the north, its thick waters turned into a murky torrent by the rains.

…

"Is Craster as savage as the rangers say?" Sam asked. The rabbit was a shade underdone, but tasted wonderful. "What's his castle like?"

"A midden heap with a roof and a firepit." Jon told Sam what he had seen and heard in Craster's Keep.

…

The Lord Commander had entrusted his mount to Dolorous Edd. He was cleaning mud out of the horse's hooves as Jon dismounted. "Lord Mormont's in the hall," he announced. "He said for you to join him. Best leave the wolf outside, he looks hungry enough to eat one of Craster's children. Well, truth be told, I'm hungry enough to eat one of Craster's children, so long as he was served hot. Go on, I'll see to your horse. If it's warm and dry inside, don't tell me, I wasn't asked in." He flicked a glob of wet mud out from under a horseshoe. "Does this mud look like shit to you? Could it be that this whole hill is made of Craster's shit?"

Craster's mother is from Whitetree where the monster man-eating weirwood resides. Strangely, there are only Ironwoods near Craster's but I think Craster is a big hint as to what the shitty information contained in the weirwoods alludes to. 

ADWD Davos IV

"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

Entrails contain shit. 

This line of research has led me to look at the Rhoyne in a lot of detail and it supports what you say above about rivers being cess pools and negative aspects of history repeating itself.

The Rhoyne wouldn’t literally be shitty as there aren’t enough people about for that to literally make sense, but it is foul and shitty in other ways. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we get told about the Rhoyne and the stone men right after we part ways with Illyrio whose name can be broken down to “sick river”. The Rhoyne changes direction (the river changed its run) when it hears who Aegon really is. Weirwoods remember, but so do rivers.

ADWD Tyrion V

"This is no common fog, Hugor Hill," Ysilla insisted. "It stinks of sorcery, as you would know if you had a nose to smell it. Many a voyager has been lost here, poleboats and pirates and great river galleys too. They wander forlorn through the mists, searching for a sun they cannot find until madness or hunger claim their lives. There are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls below the water."

"There's one now," said Tyrion. Off to starboard a hand large enough to crush the boat was reaching up from the murky depths. Only the tops of two fingers broke the river's surface, but as the Shy Maid eased on past he could see the rest of the hand rippling below the water and a pale face looking up. Though his tone was light, he was uneasy. This was a bad place, rank with despair and death. Ysilla is not wrong. This fog is not natural. Something foul grew in the waters here, and festered in the air. Small wonder the stone men go mad.

"You should not make mock," warned Ysilla. "The whispering dead hate the warm and quick and ever seek for more damned souls to join them."

 

Circling back around, Catelyn’s rotting body was fished out of a polluted by death river at which point she becomes a Shrouded Lord figure. A Tully becoming a Shrouded Lord figure makes a great deal of sense as Riverrun is a parallel to the Rhoyne. The Rhoyne is filled with the dead who are locked in the past and Stoneheart is the same and like the stonemen in the Rhoyne who remember, so does Stoneheart and the Trident which she represents. Like the Rhoyne, the Trident rivers have also been known to shift. And like the Rhoyne swallowing up firely Valyrians and turning them to stone, Rhaegar was swallowed up by the Trident, the fire of the rubies gone from his armor.

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

[Seams]

On 2/27/2018 at 7:12 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

And one other thing I almost forgot about! The Casterlys aren't the only ones to mysteriously disappear from Casterly Rock. Rohanne Webber disappears as well, and I've long privately suspected that she might have ended up North of the Wall as well. In fact, I feel she might by Ygritte's ancestor. 

... If this is true, it could be a symbolic parallel to the Casterlys, or at least set a precedent for Craster being a Casterly. Maybe the next Dunk and Egg novel will provide some new information!!

I had just been thinking about a Craster / Rohanne Webber comparison, based on this passage:

"You'd best not take any food or drink at Coldmoat, ser. The Red Widow poisoned all her husbands."

"I'm not like to marry her. She's a highborn lady, and I'm Dunk of Flea Bottom, remember? He frowned. "Just how many husband has she had, do you know?"

"Four," said Egg, "but no children. Whenever she gives birth, a demon comes by night to carry off the issue. Sam Stoops's wife says she sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts."

"Highborn ladies don't meddle with the black arts. They dance and sing and do embroidery."

"Maybe she dances with demons and embroiders evil spells," Egg said with relish. "And how would you know what highborn ladies do, ser? ... "

(The Sworn Sword)

Egg goes on to tell Dunk about Shiera Seastar's habit of bathing in blood and his own sister's use of a love potion, so he seems to know about highborn ladies practicing magic.

The Craster scenes in the book were all filtered through our unreliable narrators, but I have wondered for some time whether Craster's wives were actually in charge at Craster's Keep, with Craster as the stud for the breeding program but not really the mastermind of the situation. If so, that puts Gilly in a power position and her little Monster becomes the new Craster.

On 3/15/2018 at 8:42 AM, Lollygag said:

Tywin’s Gold-Ring Eyes, Cold, and Child Kinslaying (sacrifice?)

In keeping with the sacrifice of one’s own children for wealth and power (or to not have your children compromise your wealth and power), notice how Tywin’s eyes are described as gold or gold-flecked in conjunction with his hostile feelings toward his children or grandchildren in Joff’s case.  One could well-liken Tywin's gold-flecked irises to 2 rings akin to Craster’s twisted golden ring (rings?) worn about his wrist. ...

I’m now convinced that Tywin was part of the plan to kill Joff and that Tyrion's framing was part of the plan all along.

Agreed. The green / gold eye thing is helpful in pinning down Tywin's murderous intent, something I couldn't entirely pin down in an earlier post about Tywin's possible role in Joffrey's death. (This link takes you to my old post about Tywin as Joffrey's murderer. It's old and I no longer hold with all of the details, but I think it's still a possibility worth pondering. And it is consistent with your idea here.)

And if you think Tywin, as a descendant of Rohanne Webber, might also be using dark magic to advance his interests, this thread might offer some evidence in support of both his murderous impulses and his shared interests with his great-grandmother, Rohanne:

 

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I just wanted to expand on the rivers connection which you made as I think it's getting a thorough treatment in the books. I'm still a bit unclear as to how it connects to the weirwoods, but it definitely does seem to. The literal and figurative shittiness of Craster's is highlighted several times in combination with profuse amounts of water which turn into shit-sludge and foul rivers. 

ACOK Jon III

He had never thought to find a stone castle on the far side of the Wall, but he had pictured some sort of motte-and-bailey with a wooden palisade and a timber tower keep. What they found instead was a midden heap, a pigsty, an empty sheepfold, and a windowless daub-and-wattle hall scarce worthy of the name. It was long and low, chinked together from logs and roofed with sod. The compound stood atop a rise too modest to name a hill, surrounded by an earthen dike. Brown rivulets flowed down the slope where the rain had eaten gaping holes in the defenses, to join a rushing brook that curved around to the north, its thick waters turned into a murky torrent by the rains.

…

ADWD Tyrion V

"This is no common fog, Hugor Hill," Ysilla insisted. "It stinks of sorcery, as you would know if you had a nose to smell it. Many a voyager has been lost here, poleboats and pirates and great river galleys too. They wander forlorn through the mists, searching for a sun they cannot find until madness or hunger claim their lives. There are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls below the water."

...

Circling back around, Catelyn’s rotting body was fished out of a polluted by death river at which point she becomes a Shrouded Lord figure. ...

The river and shit connection to weirwoods isn't clear to me, but one link might be the pun on wolf / flow / fowl. The marriage of Stark to Tully may be a marriage of a wolf to a river, or flow. Each of the Stark children is also associated with a fowl - Arya with swans or the name "squab" she takes at one point or other birds mentioned in her arc; Sansa is Sandor's "little bird," Jon is a crow, Bran talks to a three-eyed crow, etc. Weirwoods are associated with the direwolf Ghost, with the albino / red wine scar of Bloodraven and with the mysterious pools at Winterfell which flow through the walls of the keep. Maybe you can find your explanation there.

I think GRRM may use some of the bowel movement references to create a "male pregnancy" situation, in support of his vast death-rebirth motif. Tyrion "killed" his mother in childbirth, but he also killed Tywin in the midst of trying to move his bowels. Tyrion notes that the difficult b.m. is achieved as Tywin dies. Dunk & Egg spoiler alert:

Spoiler

The dragon egg stolen through the privy shaft

in The Mystery Knight is further evidence for the link between birth, or rebirth, and defecation. The mound of shit at Craster's Keep may therefore be appropriate evidence of the baby factory in operation at that site. Certainly Tyrion achieves an important milestone in his rebirth with the death of Tywin.

Speaking of bowels, a pun on bowl / bowel might offer an additional clue about the shit / weirwood link. In Flea Bottom, people eat bowls of brown, which Tyrion calls "singer stew." The singers give Bran a bowl of weirwood paste, not brown. There are also references to bowls of trees - another name for a stump or trunk. A further note: leaf / flea is probably deliberate wordplay, with Flea Bottom and Leaf, the CotF singer who guides Bran. The "bottom" in Flea Bottom might be another part of the shit motif as well as a rebirth motif: orphans such as Dunk and Davos and Hot Pie and Lommy Greenhands seem to emerge from the streets of Flea Bottom without having any parents or known origin.

Following up on another of your points: the Rhoyne isn't entirely a cesspool. Recall that Septa Lemore swims in the river (Tyrion notices her stretch marks, indicating a past pregnancy) and Tyrion has a good rebirth swim in the river, emerging to sew his special motley outfit using clothes provided by Illyrio at Connington's direction with Lemore's help. Only the section near the Bridge of Dream is contaminated, if I understand correctly. Or maybe the mist described by Ysilla marks the areas that are problematic. (I just noticed that line about "searching for a sun" in the Ysilla excerpt you cited. Interesting possibilities there with fAegon / Young Griff and/or Tyrion as "sons" of the Targaryens, both fostered by Jon Connington and the others in the crew of the Shy Maid.)

The connection between Lady Stoneheart and the Shrouded Lord is a good one. I think the stone man who knocks Tyrion off the boat and into the river is a symbolic Ned Stark. If he contracted grey scale because he was kissed by the Shrouded Lord, that would be a perfect parallel with Ned and Catelyn. The dead Stark lords are all turned to stone when they are interred in the Winterfell crypt, of course, and we are told that Ned's bones never reached Winterfell. Maybe his soul is stranded at a metaphorical bridge, like the colony of grey scale sufferers living at the Bridge of Dream.

[Lollygag]

55 minutes ago, Seams said:

I had just been thinking about a Craster / Rohanne Webber comparison, based on this passage:

"You'd best not take any food or drink at Coldmoat, ser. The Red Widow poisoned all her husbands."

"I'm not like to marry her. She's a highborn lady, and I'm Dunk of Flea Bottom, remember? He frowned. "Just how many husband has she had, do you know?"

"Four," said Egg, "but no children. Whenever she gives birth, a demon comes by night to carry off the issue. Sam Stoops's wife says she sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts."

"Highborn ladies don't meddle with the black arts. They dance and sing and do embroidery."

"Maybe she dances with demons and embroiders evil spells," Egg said with relish. "And how would you know what highborn ladies do, ser? ... "

(The Sworn Sword)

Egg goes on to tell Dunk about Shiera Seastar's habit of bathing in blood and his own sister's use of a love potion, so he seems to know about highborn ladies practicing magic.

The Craster scenes in the book were all filtered through our unreliable narrators, but I have wondered for some time whether Craster's wives were actually in charge at Craster's Keep, with Craster as the stud for the breeding program but not really the mastermind of the situation. If so, that puts Gilly in a power position and her little Monster becomes the new Craster.

Agreed. The green / gold eye thing is helpful in pinning down Tywin's murderous intent, something I couldn't entirely pin down in an earlier post about Tywin's possible role in Joffrey's death. (This link takes you to my old post about Tywin as Joffrey's murderer. It's old and I no longer hold with all of the details, but I think it's still a possibility worth pondering. And it is consistent with your idea here.)

And if you think Tywin, as a descendant of Rohanne Webber, might also be using dark magic to advance his interests, this thread might offer some evidence in support of both his murderous impulses and his shared interests with his great-grandmother, Rohanne:

The rumors about Rohanne sacrificing her children remind me of Jaime's dream which essentially tells him that he's to be a sacrifice.

I've been following up on your suggestion upthread about the Lannisters and the 12 Labors of Hercules. They largely align if one includes The Rhoynar and the Casterlys. But I think this one gives weight to your suggestion that the power dynamic at Craster's may have been more muddled than we think. Note that Bran and Bloodraven are both Prometheus figures. I wonder if the Golden Apples are Craster's twisted gold ring/bracelet.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/apples.html

Adding to your thread on Tywin that the unabridged Westerlands chapter gives weight to the there being a long and established history of sorcery in the Westerlands.

2 hours ago, Seams said:

The river and shit connection to weirwoods isn't clear to me, but one link might be the pun on wolf / flow / fowl. The marriage of Stark to Tully may be a marriage of a wolf to a river, or flow. Each of the Stark children is also associated with a fowl - Arya with swans or the name "squab" she takes at one point or other birds mentioned in her arc; Sansa is Sandor's "little bird," Jon is a crow, Bran talks to a three-eyed crow, etc. Weirwoods are associated with the direwolf Ghost, with the albino / red wine scar of Bloodraven and with the mysterious pools at Winterfell which flow through the walls of the keep. Maybe you can find your explanation there.

It's more about the symbols and qualities which they have in common seeming to point...somewhere. Ravenous Reader's find on the rivers strengthened that for me. White Harbor supposedly practices the old sacrifices in secret still. They used to hang entrails in the trees. The Manderlys who named after the Mander linked to the origins of Garth the Green who is linked to human sacrifice, and here we have the Manderlys practicing more human sacrifice with Frey pies. I'm not exactly sure how it ties together, but there's substantial connections.

 

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I think GRRM may use some of the bowel movement references to create a "male pregnancy" situation, in support of his vast death-rebirth motif. Tyrion "killed" his mother in childbirth, but he also killed Tywin in the midst of trying to move his bowels. Tyrion notes that the difficult b.m. is achieved as Tywin dies. Dunk & Egg spoiler alert:

  Reveal hidden contents

The dragon egg stolen through the privy shaft

in The Mystery Knight is further evidence for the link between birth, or rebirth, and defecation. The mound of shit at Craster's Keep may therefore be appropriate evidence of the baby factory in operation at that site. Certainly Tyrion achieves an important milestone in his rebirth with the death of Tywin.

Speaking of bowels, a pun on bowl / bowel might offer an additional clue about the shit / weirwood link. In Flea Bottom, people eat bowls of brown, which Tyrion calls "singer stew." The singers give Bran a bowl of weirwood paste, not brown. There are also references to bowls of trees - another name for a stump or trunk. A further note: leaf / flea is probably deliberate wordplay, with Flea Bottom and Leaf, the CotF singer who guides Bran. The "bottom" in Flea Bottom might be another part of the shit motif as well as a rebirth motif: orphans such as Dunk and Davos and Hot Pie and Lommy Greenhands seem to emerge from the streets of Flea Bottom without having any parents or known origin.

Nice find. A male birth/defecation seems to imply a rebirth with a negative quality. I like Tyrion, but he's a piece of shit after his rebirth. Time for a new rebirth for him and I think that's around the corner. Tyrion has Bronn kill the singer Symon Silver Tongue for his knowledge about Shae. Bronn then brings up that the Bowl of Brown has all kinds of meat in it hence the name Singer's Stew. So another connection to shit and human sacrifice and cannibalism in this case. I seem to remember Arya suspecting the bowls of brown to possibly have human meat.

 

2 hours ago, Seams said:

Following up on another of your points: the Rhoyne isn't entirely a cesspool. Recall that Septa Lemore swims in the river (Tyrion notices her stretch marks, indicating a past pregnancy) and Tyrion has a good rebirth swim in the river, emerging to sew his special motley outfit using clothes provided by Illyrio at Connington's direction with Lemore's help. Only the section near the Bridge of Dream is contaminated, if I understand correctly. Or maybe the mist described by Ysilla marks the areas that are problematic. (I just noticed that line about "searching for a sun" in the Ysilla excerpt you cited. Interesting possibilities there with fAegon / Young Griff and/or Tyrion as "sons" of the Targaryens, both fostered by Jon Connington and the others in the crew of the Shy Maid.)

My mistake - I didn't mean to imply that the entire Rhoyne was foul/a cess pool. Seems to be just the part linked to Garin's Curse/Shrouded Lord/Stonemen. I've noticed that where shit isn't necessarily appropriate literally, general foulness is substituted. That Tyrion frequently mentions Tywin and the shitty Casterly Rock while there along with the Palace of Love and Sorrows (Tytos' joy turned to sorrow), I think the Rhoyne's shit link near the Bridge of Dream anyhow is quite strong though not literal. See Tywin's funeral in the OP. They're literally smelling corpse rot, but the connection to shit is fairly screaming. I think the HOTU gets the same treatment with the rot that's taking it over.

It's interesting that the Rhoyne needed to be told about Aegon being Valyrian. It didn't sense his blood. The Rhoyne wouldn't care whether he was specifically Targ or not.

 

2 hours ago, Seams said:

The connection between Lady Stoneheart and the Shrouded Lord is a good one. I think the stone man who knocks Tyrion off the boat and into the river is a symbolic Ned Stark. If he contracted grey scale because he was kissed by the Shrouded Lord, that would be a perfect parallel with Ned and Catelyn. The dead Stark lords are all turned to stone when they are interred in the Winterfell crypt, of course, and we are told that Ned's bones never reached Winterfell. Maybe his soul is stranded at a metaphorical bridge, like the colony of grey scale sufferers living at the Bridge of Dream. 

Anything for more Ned, but that's quite sad. I also see Ned in here. Actually there are loads of Stark symbols around Aegon - not sure to what effect. Interesting to think about Ned gunning for Aegon...

In AGOT, Tyrion has to hold the river (a Trident river, I forget which, maybe green current Green Fork?) from the Starks. Mists, reeds and currents recall the Rhoyne. Like Tyrion was charged with cleaning Casterly Rock, here is charged with keeping the river clean of death, or figurative shit if you will. Tyion getting tossed into the river seems connected to this somehow. Another type of Stonemen trying to get into the water...

 

AGOT Tyrion VIII

Clegane had no splendor about him; his armor was steel plate, dull grey, scarred by hard use and showing neither sigil nor ornament. He was pointing men into position with his blade, a two-handed greatsword that Ser Gregor waved about with one hand as a lesser man might wave a dagger. "Any man runs, I'll cut him down myself," he was roaring when he caught sight of Tyrion. "Imp! Take the left. Hold the river. If you can."

The left of the left. To turn their flank, the Starks would need horses that could run on water. Tyrion led his men toward the riverbank. "Look," he shouted, pointing with his axe. "The river." A blanket of pale mist still clung to the surface of the water, the murky green current swirling past underneath. The shallows were muddy and choked with reeds. "That river is ours. Whatever happens, keep close to the water. Never lose sight of it. Let no enemy come between us and our river. If they dirty our waters, hack off their cocks and feed them to the fishes."

 

 

 

[Pukisbaisals]

On 6/17/2018 at 7:44 PM, Lollygag said:

ADWD Tyrion V

"This is no common fog, Hugor Hill," Ysilla insisted. "It stinks of sorcery, as you would know if you had a nose to smell it. Many a voyager has been lost here, poleboats and pirates and great river galleys too. They wander forlorn through the mists, searching for a sun they cannot find until madness or hunger claim their lives. There are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls below the water."

"There's one now," said Tyrion. Off to starboard a hand large enough to crush the boat was reaching up from the murky depths. Only the tops of two fingers broke the river's surface, but as the Shy Maid eased on past he could see the rest of the hand rippling below the water and a pale face looking up. Though his tone was light, he was uneasy. This was a bad place, rank with despair and death. Ysilla is not wrong. This fog is not natural.

This fog reminded me of another mysterious fog (ACoK, Catelyn):

Quote

"Last night I dreamed of that time Lysa and I got lost while riding back from Seagard. Do you remember? That strange fog came up and we fell behind the rest of the party. Everything was grey, and I could not see a foot past the nose of my horse. We lost the road. The branches of the trees were like long skinny arms reaching out to grab us as we passed. Lysa started to cry, and when I shouted the fog seemed to swallow the sound. But Petyr knew where we were, and he rode back and found us . . ."

Then, when Tyrion sent Littlefinger to parley with Tyrells:

Quote

Littlefinger glanced at Tyrion with a sly smile. "I shall need to give that some consideration. No doubt I'll think of something." He sketched an airy bow and took his leave, as casual as if he were off to one of his brothels.

Tyrion glanced out the window. The fog was so thick that he could not even see the curtain wall across the yard. A few dim lights shone indistinct through that greyness. A foul day for travel, he thought. He did not envy Petyr Baelish.

Then, when Sansa escaped KL and was approaching Littlefinger's ship:

Quote

A mist was rising over the water. Sansa saw the embattled ramparts of one of the Imp's winch towers looming above, but the great chain had been lowered, and they rowed unimpeded past the spot where a thousand men had burned. The shore fell away, the fog grew thicker, the sound of the bells began to fade. Finally even the lights were gone, lost somewhere behind them. They were out in Blackwater Bay, and the world shrank to dark water, blowing mist, and their silent companion stooped over the oars.

 

I am not sure if  a fog in Riverlands is related to the fog on the Rhoyne, or if the fog is related to Lannisters, or if Littlefinger is a son of Tytos.  But it seems fog is surely related to  Littlefinger.

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Pukisbaisals said:

This fog reminded me of another mysterious fog (ACoK, Catelyn):

Then, when Tyrion sent Littlefinger to parley with Tyrells:

Then, when Sansa escaped KL and was approaching Littlefinger's ship:

 

I am not sure if  a fog in Riverlands is related to the fog on the Rhoyne, or if the fog is related to Lannisters, or if Littlefinger is a son of Tytos.  But it seems fog is surely related to  Littlefinger.

Very nice find. That first passage especially has seemed like something important since my first read. I'm reminded that @Lost Melnibonean has connected Bloodraven to mist. BR is Brynden Rivers from the Riverlands and is also connected to sorcery.

In the first battle between the Lannisters and Starks, Tyrion's role in the battle is to hold the river. It's strongly associated with the Rhoyne, but there's this which smacks of BR.

AGOT Tyrion VIII

Groaning, Tyrion lurched to his feet and pushed his way outside, shouting for his squire. Wisps of pale fog drifted through the night, long white fingers off the river.

I believe that the Stonemen, wights and the Undying are linked somehow as there's a strong vein of similarity between them. Mist and fog aren't appropriate in the HOTU as it's The Palace of Dust - no water and in fact Qarth is surrounded by desert. But Dany goes on about indigo murk around the Undying - another connection to sorcerers. 

A lot to chew on here...

[Luddsthirdmorph]

Are not the Manaderly's the only remaining members of the noble knighly order of the greenhand?

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Luddsthirdmorph said:

Are not the Manaderly's the only remaining members of the noble knighly order of the greenhand?

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Order_of_the_Green_Hand

The wiki says so.

 

[David Johnsno]

Not sure if anyone has checked out the High Valyrian Etymology 

Casterly

Kasta = blue, green

Ly = one which (is)

One which is blue / green

There is mention that castamere is named after the nearby pool that tywin used to flood the mine.

Kasta = blue, green

Mere = one

Blue / Green one