Why did they have to fight at the ToJ?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

29 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

That's called being dutiful, an honourable knight doesn't beat little girls but Joffrey's dutiful KG did that anyway

Yes & you have somehow left out the part of my quote where I said I concede it isn't the same thing & that the KG in question may not be honorable at all. Although I would like to mention that the KG that beat Sansa is not part of the 3 in question. 

 

29 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Actually they don't real life and Westeros have shown that girls having children is dangerous, in medieval England though noblewoman were married young most didn't have their first child until they were around 18. Even in the 21st Century mothers who are 15 and under are more likely to have complications. 

Not really. The only reason teen's are at higher risk IRL are outside factors - teens are less likely to seek prenatal care, more likely to contract an STD etc. I can't speak for noble women in England but I can't think of one example of someone in Planetos having issues giving birth merely do to their age. Usually I would say15 year olds body is fully equipped to give birth with no complications. 

 

33 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

This has been under a lot of discussion; if Rhaegar was certain Aegon was the PTWP then why didn't he insure his protection? The most common agreement is that Rhaegar assumed they would live simply because they had to, this was a man who let the country collapse into civil war just so he could fulfil a prophecy so him assuming his kids don't need the KG because they'll be protected by supernatural forces isn't that hard to believe. 

I suppose that's possible but it seems a little negligent to condemn the man for letting "his country collapse into civil war just so he could fulfill a prophecy" without mentioning that this prophecy needed to be filled to save all of humanity. 

 

37 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

There's a difference, Jon's 14 years old and is still learning from his mistakes. Rhaegar on the other hand is 23, he should have known better.

Of course there is a difference, more than just what you named. I was only noting that as well as differences there are similarities. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

49 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

This has been under a lot of discussion; if Rhaegar was certain Aegon was the PTWP then why didn't he insure his protection? The most common agreement is that Rhaegar assumed they would live simply because they had to, this was a man who let the country collapse into civil war just so he could fulfil a prophecy so him assuming his kids don't need the KG because they'll be protected by supernatural forces isn't that hard to believe. 

I think it was rather difficult to predict where things were going to go. But Rhaegar did a few questionable things with regard to what happened after he got back from Dorne. He tells Aerys to call on Tywin Lannister knowing that Aerys fears him. And he leaves Jaime behind exactly for that reason. If Jaime had gone o the Trident like he had wanted to, then Tywin may have been prompted to send his men to the Trident to assist. I'm sure his toady Pycelle would have sent him a message to let him know.

In all of this though, I think Rhaegar's biggest mistake wasn't that he thought one Kingsguard would be enough, because the Red Keep is a fortress. The gates had to be opened for it to be sacked and Amory Lorch and Gregor Clegane had to scale the walls of Maegor's Holdfast to murder Rhaenys and Aegon and Elia.

I think his biggest mistake was to think that he would win this and may have not made plans for anything if he should fall in battle. The way he speaks to Jaime, the guy is counting on coming back, not dying. So maybe he's naive, or maybe he's arrogant, or maybe it's a little bit of both. Or maybe he did make plans, but they weren't followed through because Aerys was worried that the Dornish would turn on him. 

I think Jaime will at least be able to provide more information on that in his chapters, if he manages to survive Lady Stoneheart. 

[Pikachu101]

16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

but it seems a little negligent to condemn the man for letting "his country collapse into civil war just so he could fulfill a prophecy" without mentioning that this prophecy needed to be filled to save all of humanity. 

What's the point if your house has fallen and the country is broken? Westeros needs to be strong in order to fight off the Others, instead Rhaegar destabilised the region and insured the fall of House Targaryen. 

6 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think his biggest mistake was to think that he would win this and may have not made plans for anything if he should fall in battle. The way he speaks to Jaime, the guy is counting on coming back, not dying. So maybe he's naive, or maybe he's arrogant, or maybe it's a little bit of both.

 

Rhaegar was arrogant, and it was that arrogance which made him lose everything. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

What's the point if your house has fallen and the country is broken? Westeros needs to be strong in order to fight off the Others, instead Rhaegar destabilised the region and insured the fall of House Targaryen. 

But what would be the point in houses or a country if there are no people? I'm not saying Rhaegar made all the right decisions but to say he let his country collapse without giving the reason implies there wasn't a good reason - and there was. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

They was ordered to .

[Angel Eyes]

Ok, is the question Why did they have to fight at the Tower of Joy, or Why did they have to fight at the Tower of Joy?

[hodorisfaclessman]

Seems to me ned is tryng to be reasonable here! As much as he can be while his sister is held in the keep behind him and in front of his men

He lists all the disasters for the crown...hes pretty much screaming at them the war is over ...theres no reason to do this!

 

[Pikachu101]

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But what would be the point in houses or a country if there are no people? I'm not saying Rhaegar made all the right decisions but to say he let his country collapse without giving the reason implies there wasn't a good reason - and there was. 

He disrespected three Houses, and didn’t show up to a war he started until there was no coming back. There’s no good reason to cause a civil war when you have the means to end it, the fact that Rhaegar thinks disrespecting his liege lords and siding with his father is perfectly valid shows his arrogance and short sightedness. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

He disrespected three Houses, and didn’t show up to a war he started until there was no coming back. There’s no good reason to cause a civil war when you have the means to end it, the fact that Rhaegar thinks disrespecting his liege lords and siding with his father is perfectly valid shows his arrogance and short sightedness. 

& if he had sided with his liege lords instead of his King? What would that make him? 

[Pikachu101]

38 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

& if he had sided with his liege lords instead of his King? What would that make him? 

He was going to overthrow Aerys anyway, by siding with his father Rhaegar made it clear that he saw nothing wrong with Brandon and Rickard's deaths thus giving them a reason to overthrow House Targaryen entirely rather than just Aerys. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

He disrespected three Houses, and didn’t show up to a war he started until there was no coming back. There’s no good reason to cause a civil war when you have the means to end it, the fact that Rhaegar thinks disrespecting his liege lords and siding with his father is perfectly valid shows his arrogance and short sightedness. 

His liege lords are attempting to remove the Targaryens from power. Rhaegar is essentially fighting a losing war. He can't side with them because they want to get rid of his family (and him), and he can't remove Aerys from power right away because that means he might divide the allegiances of the people who are fighting for his House. That might be why he's waiting to make these changes after his side wins the war. If he wins, he pardons the rebels, removes his father from power. 

[Pikachu101]

29 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

His liege lords are attempting to remove the Targaryens from power. 

At the beginning they just wanted to remove Aerys not the Targaryens entirely, this changed only after Rhaegar made it clear that his allegiance was to the man who killed a liege lord and two heirs. 

 

31 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

That might be why he's waiting to make these changes after his side wins the war. If he wins, he pardons the rebels, removes his father from power. 

Or he could just explain this to the rebels under a banner of peace, you said it yourself that his biggest weakness was his arrogance. 

[Apoplexy]

On 10/16/2017 at 7:01 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'll just apologize ahead of time because this is probably a really dumb question but why did they have to fight at the ToJ?

Rhaegar was dead, Lyanna lay dying & at any rate Ned wasn't going to hurt her or the baby. Is it merely because they were told to guard the baby & thought Ned & co would kill him? 

Couldn't this have been solved by some conversation? AND speaking of conversation is this not an odd exchange? Why did they have this particular conversation? Why not, hey I want my sister back? I want to see her & make sure she isn't harmed? It seems to me as if neither side really wanted to fight but felt honor bound to do it. Why? 

Ned was on the side that opposed their king, which is why the KG felt obligated to fight. They said they did not intend to flee or hide, so that only leaves open the option to fight.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

13 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

At the beginning they just wanted to remove Aerys not the Targaryens entirely, this changed only after Rhaegar made it clear that his allegiance was to the man who killed a liege lord and two heirs. 

Actually, we assume that's the case but we really don't know what Jon Arryn was thinking. And I point to Jon Arryn specifically because he called his banners first and between him and Ned and Robert, I'm pretty sure he was the political mind. And whose idea was it that Robert should take the throne because he had the better claim? This idea didn't emerge inside 24 hours. 

On a side note, it's sort of ironic how these houses that rose against the Targs during the rebellion have been decimated. Jon Arryn poisoned. Robert, death by boar. Ned beheaded.

 Hoster Tully sickly and in what looked like the throes of dementia, his two daughters (who were used as bargaining chips for this alliance), brutally murdered, Tywin murdered by his son. 

13 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Or he could just explain this to the rebels under a banner of peace, you said it yourself that his biggest weakness was his arrogance. 

This is what I said;

On 10/22/2017 at 4:31 PM, Widow's Watch said:

I think his biggest mistake was to think that he would win this and may have not made plans for anything if he should fall in battle. The way he speaks to Jaime, the guy is counting on coming back, not dying. So maybe he's naive, or maybe he's arrogant, or maybe it's a little bit of both. Or maybe he did make plans, but they weren't followed through because Aerys was worried that the Dornish would turn on him. 

In any case, I think you and I are circling the drain on this one. I like the character and I'm not willing to throw rocks at him or any characters whose full story we don't know. I get why Rhaegar might have decided to leave Lyanna at the ToJ, and I think I get why he left three Kingsguard at her back instead of maybe just the one.

I find there are too many variables when it comes to this specific character, but when the book comes out in a bagillion years and I'm wrong, then I'll have been wrong and you can tell me I was wrong. I don't mind

Sorry if things are all over the place. It has been a disturbingly long day on this side of the planet.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

In any case, I think you and I are circling the drain on this one. I like the character and I'm not willing to throw rocks at him or any characters whose full story we don't know.

I agree it's a little silly to judge the character strongly when we know so little. When it comes to precipitating the events of the Rebellion, it's especially blurry. Rhaegar is at the center of it, but we haven no idea what his exact motives or plan were.

I do think that we're supposed to see the War of the 5 Kings as an echo of the Rebellion, so I'm sure there's some parallel in the present story. Given how often Ned thinks of Rhaegar and their shared "fatherhood" of Jon, I think there's some thematic parallels. And so if we look at Ned's central role in starting the Wo5K, he certainly wasn't too worried about the likelihood of war. Ned could "see it clearly" how everything would favor his plan to vanquish the Lannisters. So I'm inclined to believe that Rhaegar was equally convinced of the ease with which his plans would unfold, and especially with his prophecy obsession, he probably thought all the pieces were falling into place. I'd guess that his death was a prophetic fulfillment, though he must have thought he was outrunning his fate or believed he knew when he was going die (like Jojen, except wrong).

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 hours ago, cgrav said:

I do think that we're supposed to see the War of the 5 Kings as an echo of the Rebellion, so I'm sure there's some parallel in the present story. Given how often Ned thinks of Rhaegar and their shared "fatherhood" of Jon, I think there's some thematic parallels. And so if we look at Ned's central role in starting the Wo5K, he certainly wasn't too worried about the likelihood of war. Ned could "see it clearly" how everything would favor his plan to vanquish the Lannisters. So I'm inclined to believe that Rhaegar was equally convinced of the ease with which his plans would unfold, and especially with his prophecy obsession, he probably thought all the pieces were falling into place. I'd guess that his death was a prophetic fulfillment, though he must have thought he was outrunning his fate or believed he knew when he was going die (like Jojen, except wrong).

So just for the record, I completely disagree with the whole "obsessed with prophecy". I sort of have a theory as to why he became convinced that Aegon was the PtwP. And the HotU seemed more like information being provided to Dany through Rhaegar than an actual thing that happened in the "real" world. 

The rest of your post though, I agree with and I think we are supposed to take our cues from the way the Wo5K started and how the people involved played the game. I don't think Rhaegar expected the blowback he got on this, and on my end, seeing how Ned trusted the wrong people, I have to wonder if Rhaegar made that exact same mistake. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

So just for the record, I completely disagree with the whole "obsessed with prophecy". I sort of have a theory as to why he became convinced that Aegon was the PtwP. And the HotU seemed more like information being provided to Dany through Rhaegar than an actual thing that happened in the "real" world. 

The rest of your post though, I agree with and I think we are supposed to take our cues from the way the Wo5K started and how the people involved played the game. I don't think Rhaegar expected the blowback he got on this, and on my end, seeing how Ned trusted the wrong people, I have to wonder if Rhaegar made that exact same mistake. 

I agree about the Wo5K. What is your theory? I would very interested in hearing it. 

[Pikachu101]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

seeing how Ned trusted the wrong people, I have to wonder if Rhaegar made that exact same mistake. 

Actually from what I can tell Rhaegar seemed very careful with who he trusted to keep Lyanna in the Tower of Joy, these men were unrelenting even though her abduction caused a civil war would Barrsitan or Jaime have been as loyal? 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

27 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree about the Wo5K. What is your theory? I would very interested in hearing it. 

So I've steered clear from message boards for years (but I am bored to death waiting on Winds), so I don't know if this has been proposed, but I've been suspecting that maybe Rhaegar visited with Maggy the Frog.

One of the things Feast for Crows does is place Rhaegar in Lannisport at the same time Cersei goes to visit Maggy to get her fortune told. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibilities that he might have gone to visit her too. If he went to see her for information about the Long Night, or you know Lightbringer, or whatever else, then she might have told him that he wasn't the PtwP, but that his son would be, so when he sees the bleeding star on the night Aegon was conceived, he jumps to the conclusion that yes, the baby who is going to be born is this mythical hero. The whole song of ice and fire might even have come from her.

Cersei describes Rhaegar as having sad eyes, like he was wounded. And as readers, we are trained to think that he looks like that because he's just a sad guy in general. Barristan says that the guy didn't have it in him to be happy, but Ned in his POV says that this same guy renamed the tower in Dorne the Tower of Joy, so there's a contradiction here.

I've read Cersei's POV a good 10-12 times maybe and I always brushed this off as Rhaegar being a generally gloomy guy. But then, we also find out that he just recently been knighted, which is the culmination of the hard work he put into becoming a warrior after he read whatever in his scrolls. So if he went to see Maggy and he finds out otherwise, it would give an even more satisfying explanation as to why he looked like that. He took on that prophecy burden willingly and probably out of his sense of duty. Rhaegar was the original prophecy baby, his parents were forced into a marriage they didn't want to make him. They are both miserable, Aerys is a very shitty and abusive husband. And then there's Summerhall and everyone who died there. If he's not the PtwP, then all these people died for nothing. 

So that's the speculation as to why Aemon tells us his nephew became convinced that Aegon was the PtwP after he saw the bleeding star.

23 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Actually from what I can tell Rhaegar seemed very careful with who he trusted to keep Lyanna in the Tower of Joy, these men were unrelenting even though her abduction caused a civil war would Barrsitan or Jaime have been as loyal? 

I agree about him being seemingly careful, but people can turn on a dime. The location of the Tower of Joy was given up twice. Gerold Hightower knowing where Rhaegar was the other kingsguard were is one thing, but Ned finding out is another thing.

I find that people like Jon, Ned and Rhaegar tend to have these blind spots. Jon knows that things are on the brink at the NW with Bowen Marsh and the old guard, but he keeps going with his plans. Ned doesn't think LF is worthy of trust, but Catelyn tells him they can trust him because she grew up with him (I know I'm oversimplifying) so he does just that. Who knows what happened with Rhaegar.

With regard to Barristan and Jaime, I think they would have been loyal. Jaime seems to have had a healthy dose of respect for Rhaegar and I think that anything that would have gotten him away from Aerys might have been good in Jaime's book. Barristan laments that Rhaegar never trusted him like he did Arthur, which seems to indicate that he would have followed his prince had he taken him in his confidence. That's my interpretation of it at least.

[Pikachu101]

38 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

The location of the Tower of Joy was given up twice. Gerold Hightower knowing where Rhaegar was the other kingsguard were is one thing, but Ned finding out is another thing.

I have a theory it was either Varys or Arthur Dayne 

39 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Who knows what happened with Rhaegar.

I think he genuinely believed he would win simply because the prophecy made it clear that he had to. Same goes for why he didn't leave enough protection for Rhaenys, and Aegon; as far as he was concerned there's no way they could possibly die because they're too important.