Why did they have to fight at the ToJ?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I think he genuinely believed he would win simply because the prophecy made it clear that he had to. Same goes for why he didn't leave enough protection for Rhaenys, and Aegon; as far as he was concerned there's no way they could possibly die because they're too important.

Anything is possible, but he also didn't think that Tywin would betray his family the way he did. If he had thought things would go that way, his take on the situation may have been completely different. And I don't think he considered Rhaenys to be one of the heads of the dragons. I know, shocker! I disagree with the fandom.

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I have a theory it was either Varys or Arthur Dayne

Now you have to satisfy my curiosity. Although I think we're well beyond the scope of the thread and turned this into something else completely, which bad us.

[Pikachu101]

9 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't think he considered Rhaenys to be one of the heads of the dragons. 

Why's that?

10 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Now you have to satisfy my curiosity. 

Varys because he's the only person I can think of who could find out and tell Ned, maybe to prove his allegiance to the new king, and Arthur because it would be a good twist. Perhaps he wanted to make things right with the rebels but then found out what happened to Rhaegar's children and changed his mind? idk Arthur Dayne is a mystery to me, I just can't see him betraying Dorne 

18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Although I think we're well beyond the scope of the thread and turned this into something else completely, which bad us.

This thread went on a tangent ages ago 

[Thesilea Greyjoy]

Why would Arthur Dayne tell him that? Especially when he didn't plan to surrender to Ned and fought him to death. This would support the theory that he is still alive and then all we know about what happend at ToJ is false.

I also suspect Varys, who told him but don't know what he got out of that other than Neds and Roberts trust.

 

[cgrav]

@Widow's Watch

I do agree the role of prophecy is fuzzy. I get the distinct impression from his parting words to Jaime that he expected to return safe, so I'd guess that he believed his death was fated for some other occasion.

Whatever he learned in his reading apparently convinced him to become a warrior rather than a more maesterly prince, so I'm guessing he thought there was a great foe he had to defeat by hand.

We do have Dany's vision of a battle on the Trident, so it's not too far fetched to think Rhaegar saw something similar. Maybe some vision of a dragon dying on the Trident? And being the TRIdent, I'd wager something is going to happen three times. The scene is symbolically replayed several times in important POVs, so it must have some connection to the upcoming story.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

Why's that?

In AFFC, Maester Aemon says the whole the dragon must have three heads but that he is too old and frail to be one of them, that he should be with Dany showing her the way.

My reasoning follows what Aemon is saying. Rhaegar would be a fountain of knowledge and he would be the most apt person to show his son the way. So based on that really nothing else because GRRM is so damn cheap with the information, my personal conclusion is that Rhaegar was one of the heads of the dragon. Rhaegar would have had the same cerebral qualities as Maester Aemon. Before anything else, these people are scholars.  

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

@Widow's Watch

I do agree the role of prophecy is fuzzy. I get the distinct impression from his parting words to Jaime that he expected to return safe, so I'd guess that he believed his death was fated for some other occasion.

I also think he believed he was coming back. He seems to have formulated more plans for his return than in case he didn't in any case. Prophecy has bitten in the ass every single person that has gone near it. Melisandre is completely wrong in her assessment of Stannis and manipulates everything around him, but blatantly ignores what her flames are trying to tell her about Jon. 

No one will convince me that what happened at Summerhall wasn't Egg trying to fulfill the PtwP prophecy by waking dragons from stone. That episode decimated the Targaryen line but good. 

One thing we don't know is if Rhaegar had dragon dreams. We don't know if Lyanna had similar dreams to what Jon experiences. For my money, I think they might have experienced these things. I think Ned did have a crypt dream, right? 

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

Whatever he learned in his reading apparently convinced him to become a warrior rather than a more maesterly prince, so I'm guessing he thought there was a great foe he had to defeat by hand.

I think he learned his history lessons well. 

I wonder if he made a trip to Winterfell and the Wall at some point. You'd think he'd want to see the state of the Wall for himself and start making decisions and if that happened, then the two people he discussed these things with are long dead. 

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

We do have Dany's vision of a battle on the Trident, so it's not too far fetched to think Rhaegar saw something similar. Maybe some vision of a dragon dying on the Trident? And being the TRIdent, I'd wager something is going to happen three times. The scene is symbolically replayed several times in important POVs, so it must have some connection to the upcoming story.

The duel between Brandon and LF has that Trident imagery. The description of the fight fits what happened between Robert and Rhaegar pretty closely. So of course I've got questions about what happened to Rhaegar's body and who cremated it.

It's pretty need what you're saying about the TRIdent. What do you think will happen there? And should I break a box of tissues out and weep some for the riverlands? Because man, living there must really suck whenever there's a war.

Maybe we should start a new thread and call it, throw it against the wall and see if it sticks. I'm really good at it.

[Pikachu101]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

My reasoning follows what Aemon is saying. Rhaegar would be a fountain of knowledge and he would be the most apt person to show his son the way. So based on that really nothing else because GRRM is so damn cheap with the information, my personal conclusion is that Rhaegar was one of the heads of the dragon. Rhaegar would have had the same cerebral qualities as Maester Aemon. Before anything else, these people are scholars.  

Interesting, I just assumed Rhaegar was recreating Aegon and his sister wives 

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

 

The duel between Brandon and LF has that Trident imagery. The description of the fight fits what happened between Robert and Rhaegar pretty closely. So of course I've got questions about what happened to Rhaegar's body and who cremated it.

It's pretty need what you're saying about the TRIdent. What do you think will happen there? And should I break a box of tissues out and weep some for the riverlands? Because man, living there must really suck whenever there's a war.

Maybe we should start a new thread and call it, throw it against the wall and see if it sticks. I'm really good at it.

The prevalence of these Trident scenes points to something pretty significant, else it wouldn't come up in multiple POVs across several books. I'd happily contribute to such a thread, as I've thought for a long time that we are being shown something very important about both the past and future of the story.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

So I've steered clear from message boards for years (but I am bored to death waiting on Winds), so I don't know if this has been proposed, but I've been suspecting that maybe Rhaegar visited with Maggy the Frog.

One of the things Feast for Crows does is place Rhaegar in Lannisport at the same time Cersei goes to visit Maggy to get her fortune told. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibilities that he might have gone to visit her too. If he went to see her for information about the Long Night, or you know Lightbringer, or whatever else, then she might have told him that he wasn't the PtwP, but that his son would be, so when he sees the bleeding star on the night Aegon was conceived, he jumps to the conclusion that yes, the baby who is going to be born is this mythical hero. The whole song of ice and fire might even have come from her.

Cersei describes Rhaegar as having sad eyes, like he was wounded. And as readers, we are trained to think that he looks like that because he's just a sad guy in general. Barristan says that the guy didn't have it in him to be happy, but Ned in his POV says that this same guy renamed the tower in Dorne the Tower of Joy, so there's a contradiction here.

I've read Cersei's POV a good 10-12 times maybe and I always brushed this off as Rhaegar being a generally gloomy guy. But then, we also find out that he just recently been knighted, which is the culmination of the hard work he put into becoming a warrior after he read whatever in his scrolls. So if he went to see Maggy and he finds out otherwise, it would give an even more satisfying explanation as to why he looked like that. He took on that prophecy burden willingly and probably out of his sense of duty. Rhaegar was the original prophecy baby, his parents were forced into a marriage they didn't want to make him. They are both miserable, Aerys is a very shitty and abusive husband. And then there's Summerhall and everyone who died there. If he's not the PtwP, then all these people died for nothing. 

So that's the speculation as to why Aemon tells us his nephew became convinced that Aegon was the PtwP after he saw the bleeding star.

Very interesting. I haven't seen this idea before but haven't frequented the forums much lately either. 

It's seems probable that Rhaegar encountered some sort of prophecy that made him change his mind so it would fit nicely if Rhaegar had spoke with Maggy also. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

This thread went on a tangent ages ago 

Yeah but that's ok we have to occupy ourselves some how. 

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

In AFFC, Maester Aemon says the whole the dragon must have three heads but that he is too old and frail to be one of them, that he should be with Dany showing her the way.

My reasoning follows what Aemon is saying. Rhaegar would be a fountain of knowledge and he would be the most apt person to show his son the way. So based on that really nothing else because GRRM is so damn cheap with the information, my personal conclusion is that Rhaegar was one of the heads of the dragon. Rhaegar would have had the same cerebral qualities as Maester Aemon. Before anything else, these people are scholars.  

Very interesting. So you propose the 3 heads of the Dragon are 3 people to guide tPTwP? That really opens up some possibilities. 

But doesn't Rhaegar say in Dany's vision in tHotU something like 'there must be one more, the dragon must have 3 heads' while referring to the babe? What do you take that to mean? Maybe he wasn't birthing tPtwP but trying to produce the 3 heads? So in other words trying to give Dany her 3 advisors or guides? 

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Maybe we should start a new thread and call it, throw it against the wall and see if it sticks. I'm really good at it.

Haha I agree. Or we can throw it in this thread, no one is complaining. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

33 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha I agree. Or we can throw it in this thread, no one is complaining. 

It's your thread, you're the boss!

33 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Very interesting. So you propose the 3 heads of the Dragon are 3 people to guide tPTwP? That really opens up some possibilities.

Not necessarily that. Although that's a pretty great idea.

I mean mainly that if Rhaegar considered himself one of the heads of the dragons from the word go, then he might still have considered himself one of the heads, so he would be counting himself as part of the trio as opposed to keeping himself out of that equation. 

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

Interesting, I just assumed Rhaegar was recreating Aegon and his sister wives 

I assumed that at one point as well, but my big question became why didn't he name Rhaenys Visenya instead? Visenya was the eldest child, if this is what he was going with, then logically, the name he would have given his firstborn would have been Visenya. Once I started thinking like this, it shredded the whole "he's trying to recreate the trio." And then Kevan Lannister in the epilogue of ADWD says that if Cersei had married Rhaegar then she would have given him the sons he wanted. I know that it's very 2nd, 3rd hand information, but Tywin was close enough and around Rhaegar for a while as Hand to have had conversations with him to maybe know that the guy wanted sons. I can totally see Tywin having some disparaging conversation about Elia and how she birthed a daughter and how the prince wants sons.

This is information that shouldn't be dismissed. Plus we know that the translation of the prophecy is faulty because prince is gender neutral in High Valyrian. Since it seems that he and Aemon messed up the translation, it makes a lot of sense why he wanted sons.

@cgrav, do it! do it! do it! I'm dumping homework on you. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Not necessarily that. Although that's a pretty great idea.

I mean mainly that if Rhaegar considered himself one of the heads of the dragons from the word go, then he might still have considered himself one of the heads, so he would be counting himself as part of the trio as opposed to keeping himself out of that equation. 

Gotcha. So he thought he was one head, and Aegon was the 2nd? Or at the very least he thought he already had 2 with himself & that there must be one more? 

[Angel Eyes]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Gotcha. So he thought he was one head, and Aegon was the 2nd? Or at the very least he thought he already had 2 with himself & that there must be one more? 

So what's Rhaenys? Chopped liver?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what's Rhaenys? Chopped liver?

Lol no but Widow's Watch was proposing Rhaegar thought he was one head of the Dragon & in the HotU vision Rhaegar says there must be one more head while referring to Aegon so if Rhaegar is one & Aegon another & he is still in need of another then he must not have thought Rhaenys qualified as a head right? 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

I think Rhaegar thought he'd be able to reason with Robert Baratheon, yes he was in his armor obviously,  but I really have the theory that he considered The Battle At The Trident, as a second option. That could be why he rode out, on his own to meet Robert. I think he thought he could reason with Robert and get him to understand that Lyanna didn't love him, nor wanted to be his wife. That could be why he said what he said to Jaimie about changes, he possibly figured he could pacify Robert with a high position in his court, after Rhaegar removed his father from the throne (I think this was the changes he was referring to, atleast some of them. He obviously believed he would return to KL alive, now this could do with the prophecy or again he felt that he could reason with Robert. But I also think he was prepared for the rebuttal, and the possibility of death, hence why he had Arthur Dayne & co. at the Tower Of Joy, to protect his queen and his heir. Ned of course, with his sense of "honor" couldn't just allow Lyanna running off with the Targaryen heir, and refusing her betrothal to his best friend. That combined with what Aerys did to his father and brother, Ned may have had clouded judgement, and judged them all as co-conspirators. Silly ass Ned.

 

Crackpot, tin foil theory about the confrontation at TOJ. Lol. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Gotcha. So he thought he was one head, and Aegon was the 2nd? Or at the very least he thought he already had 2 with himself & that there must be one more? 

Bingo! 

Rhaegar #1, Aegon #2, ???? #3.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Lol no but Widow's Watch was proposing Rhaegar thought he was one head of the Dragon & in the HotU vision Rhaegar says there must be one more head while referring to Aegon so if Rhaegar is one & Aegon another & he is still in need of another then he must not have thought Rhaenys qualified as a head right? 

Is he referring to Aegon? He's with Aegon and Elia, but the conversation is entirely in pronouns. And I don't know how Aegon would be the "Song of Ice and Fire". Given Aeg's age, that conversation had to have taken place sometime near or after Harrenhal and Lyanna's "abduction" - is it possible Elia knew what Rhaegar was up to with Lyanna? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

38 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Is he referring to Aegon? He's with Aegon and Elia, but the conversation is entirely in pronouns. And I don't know how Aegon would be the "Song of Ice and Fire". Given Aeg's age, that conversation had to have taken place sometime near or after Harrenhal and Lyanna's "abduction" - is it possible Elia knew what Rhaegar was up to with Lyanna? 

Good point. I mean I assume is referring to Aegon & that he is there with Elia but we don't know that for sure. Dany could have been getting bits & pieces of the conversation. The way she gets it makes it seem like he is referring to Aegon.

I've always assumed Elia knew something. I don't think Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna without telling her anything but thats just me speculating. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Bingo! 

Rhaegar #1, Aegon #2, ???? #3.

Jon maybe? Which brings to question - if Aegon is rAegon & not fAegon & assuming Jon is another head - or that whoever is, is still around will Rhaegar need to be replaced? 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

54 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Is he referring to Aegon? He's with Aegon and Elia, but the conversation is entirely in pronouns. And I don't know how Aegon would be the "Song of Ice and Fire". Given Aeg's age, that conversation had to have taken place sometime near or after Harrenhal and Lyanna's "abduction" - is it possible Elia knew what Rhaegar was up to with Lyanna? 

That whole vision is a mess and I have my doubts anything happened like that at all. To me it feels like the vision is just designed to give Dany a bunch of information that she's going to have to sort through. She doesn't know what the song of ice and fire means, she never heard of the PtwP, but she knows Aegon's name and she knows who his parents are. There are two people (Marwyn and Moqorro) converging towards her. Moqorro believes that she is the PtwP since that's what Benerro has been preaching, but we don't really know what Marwyn is thinking. She might reject the idea based on the vision, and reject it further when she finds out that "Aegon" is still alive. I think all of this is orchestrated more for Dany's benefit since she's the one receiving all those vision, if that makes sense. Plus she believes these things and she is seeing Quaithe's warnings coming true.

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Jon maybe? Which brings to question - if Aegon is rAegon & not fAegon & assuming Jon is another head - or that whoever is, is still around will Rhaegar need to be replaced?

You can't forget Dany. If anything, she is the direct descendant of Rhaella and Aerys. As far as Aegon goes, there lies the dilemma. Even if he's a Blackfyre, he's still the blood of the dragon. Tyrion did say that red or black, a dragon was a dragon. Maybe he's taken a more naive approach to it, but he's not wrong.

What I do think though, is that Rhaegar, Jon and Dany are very much connected through birth, rebirth and whatever is going to go down with Jon and his resurrection. 

[Ygrain]

11 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

Why would Arthur Dayne tell him that? Especially when he didn't plan to surrender to Ned and fought him to death. This would support the theory that he is still alive and then all we know about what happend at ToJ is false.

The information that they were seven against three but only two lived to ride away comes from Ned's thoughts, not something he was telling anyone, so it's highly unlikely that he would lie to himself. Plus, GRRM was asked specifially if only two men left ToJ, and he confirmed that.