Why did they have to fight at the ToJ?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

1 hour ago, Nina Dark Sister said:

How the hell would I know if GRRM has not finished writing these books yet?

I think @Lyanna<3Rhaegar was asking what you meant by Dany possibly being sent as a suitor for Viserys. For instance did you mean that Varys found Dany in Dorne and sent her to Viserys so she could marry him in the future?

[Ygrain]

Please, no more "Dany in Dorne because lemons". Wherever they were, Dany and Viserys were there together, because masking a sudden appearance of a "Targaryen princess" after some years of Viserys on his own would require Varys to control the flow of every single bit of informaton going into all of Westeros, Dorne included, and pretending Dany had been there since day one, because Stannis knew he was to capture "babes" on DS, for which practically everyone and their mother on DS must have participated in the ruse, and that would further require Rhaella faking a pregnancy or giving stillbirth which had to be masked with some baby swap for some unknown reason, yadda yadda. Please, no.

[Thesilea Greyjoy]

On 31.10.2017 at 5:18 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

So why did they have to fight at the tower of joy.  

It was inevitable and you only have to listen to the words of the White Bull. 

1. "Far way, or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne"
2. "Our knees do not bend easily"

The KGs had the same choice as any other in the kingdom:  swear fealty to the usurper or die.  They chose to remain loyal to King Aerys II and they died fighting in his service.  It was a lost cause and they chose to go down with their King Aerys II, like any loyal royal bodyguard should do.  The heir is safely at Dragonstone and they could never hope to make it to him because the rebels have taken control of the ports.  They can bend their knees to the usurper or die.  That was their only choice.  I am sure they would have eventually found a way to Prince Viserys if they could but Ned caught them at the TOJ, the last Targaryen stronghold in the mainland.  

But if they had remained loyal to Aerys shouldn't they had fled to DS to keep Viserys save or at least see what happend to him. When he and Dany fled to Esoss they could have followed without trying to get in DS.

IMO what they did, staying at the ToJ meant they were loyal to Rheagar and his idea of the 3 headed Drageon/Ptwp and leaving Aerys and his heir. after Aerys death Viserys was their king, they had to protect him. They acted totaly against what I think a KG should have done, they acted like dying fighting was their biggest goal, but shouldn't it be saving the life of who every they wanted to protect, even that meant diplomacy, fleeing or bending knees.

What was their plan anyway, if they defeated Ned? I am sure there were more insiders to Rheagars plan. Where they would raise the baby? with or without Lyanna? had they proof for the babys father like a Targaryen ring or a sword, when Rheagar left he wouldn't know if the baby would look like a Targaryen?

What was Rheagars plan? did he thing only because he could show the world a baby with Lyanna the Starks, Baratheons and Arrys would change their mind and stop the rebellion? or was he so convinced of him self that he never doubted he wouldn't kill/defeat Robert and Ned?

I think to know why the KG fight at tToJ, we need to know was their plan was.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I think @Lyanna<3Rhaegar was asking what you meant by Dany possibly being sent as a suitor for Viserys. For instance did you mean that Varys found Dany in Dorne and sent her to Viserys so she could marry him in the future?

Yes thank you. 

 

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Please, no more "Dany in Dorne because lemons". Wherever they were, Dany and Viserys were there together, because masking a sudden appearance of a "Targaryen princess" after some years of Viserys on his own would require Varys to control the flow of every single bit of informaton going into all of Westeros, Dorne included, and pretending Dany had been there since day one, because Stannis knew he was to capture "babes" on DS, for which practically everyone and their mother on DS must have participated in the ruse, and that would further require Rhaella faking a pregnancy or giving stillbirth which had to be masked with some baby swap for some unknown reason, yadda yadda. Please, no.

Yes to this too! Lol

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

But if they had remained loyal to Aerys shouldn't they had fled to DS to keep Viserys save or at least see what happend to him.

That they definitely should. Protecting the heir is the least one would expect from loyal KG.

2 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

When he and Dany fled to Esoss they could have followed without trying to get in DS.

That flight was months later, at the time of the ToJ showdown, Rhaella may not have been even aware she was pregnant.

2 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

IMO what they did, staying at the ToJ meant they were loyal to Rheagar and his idea of the 3 headed Drageon/Ptwp and leaving Aerys and his heir. after Aerys death Viserys was their king, they had to protect him. They acted totaly against what I think a KG should have done, they acted like dying fighting was their biggest goal, but shouldn't it be saving the life of who every they wanted to protect, even that meant diplomacy, fleeing or bending knees.

If Jon was legitimate, or at least legitimate enough in the eyes of Rhaegar's followers, and they didn't know about Aerys' choice of heir, then fighting to the death (of their opponents) was the only choice to keep the baby safe from anyone who would perceive his very existence as a threat to the new regime.

2 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

What was their plan anyway, if they defeated Ned? I am sure there were more insiders to Rheagars plan. Where they would raise the baby? with or without Lyanna? had they proof for the babys father like a Targaryen ring or a sword, when Rheagar left he wouldn't know if the baby would look like a Targaryen?

I believe the word of Dayne, Whent or Hightower would be perfectly sufficient, they were considered to be paragons of honour (and Whent and Dayne had been with Rhaegar the whole time, so they were also witnesses to his wedding to Lyanna, if it took place)

2 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

What was Rheagars plan? did he thing only because he could show the world a baby with Lyanna the Starks, Baratheons and Arrys would change their mind and stop the rebellion? or was he so convinced of him self that he never doubted he wouldn't kill/defeat Robert and Ned?

If the baby could have changed a thing, he would have produced the pregnant Lyanna and called for peace, but that never happened. There was no way Aerys could be convinced to be reasonable, and the rebels probably weren't willing to parley, either, if such an attempt was even made (though the presence of Ethan Glover in Ned's group, who was imprisoned along with Brandon, may be hinting at some message brought to Ned).

2 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

I think to know why the KG fight at tToJ, we need to know was their plan was.

IMHO: to rely on the secrecy and wait till Lyanna either recovered or died, and meanwhile make preparations for spiriting Jon away so that he could be raised in safety. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

 

13 hours ago, Crona said:

The fight is very vague, I doubt that Lyanna would have complied with the kingsguard if they had killed her brother. The whole scenario doesn't make sense, and that's really the answer I can give.

The fight is vague and wonky AF. I question a lot of it mainly because it seems like Ned wanted some information out there, like how he killed Arthur in single combat, even though we know that's not entirely true and that whatever Howland did to help Ned is what did it. If you're helped take someone down during single combat, then I don't think it's single combat anymore, is it? I still think Arthur was captured as opposed to killed. We've seen Meera use her net countless times, so we'll see how this whole thing goes down. 

Ned and Howland are the only two who leave the ToJ, but Ned's soldiers know all about how their lord slew Ser Arthur in single combat. So that's information that he wanted out there. Meanwhile, the information that he didn't want out there never came to light.

Ned finding out where the Kingsguard were holed up might also have been the tipping point. Someone must have told and if someone told, then that someone may have been a person that they trusted. With the loss of the war, and people bending the knee left and right, who was their friend and who was their enemy? 

And speaking of friends and enemies, I just finished my umpteenth reread of ADWD and I noticed a line I never paid attention to before. 

Quote

"We have these takes coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn."
"As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell.
That would be the same father that Highgarden and House Tyrell supported to the bitter end and well beyond. (ADWD, Epilogue)

If Kevan Lannister is right, what did the Tyrells do exactly that happened after they dipped their banners and bent the knee? 

And to add more onto that, if there were houses that were still loyal to the Targs, like House Darry for instance, 3 Kingsguard who refuse to bend the knee and escape to Essos might be enough incentive to keep the hope alive that there will be a restoration at some point.

We're facing the same type of scenario in the north and the riverlands when it comes to the Starks. The lords of the riverlands don't want Petyr Baelish or the Freys to be in charge of them anymore than the north wants to be under the thumb of Roose Bolton or the Lannisters.

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Could you please explain the bolded part? 

Let's assume for a second the eggs did come from the ToJ. Why didn't they hatch there? What would have been different than when Dany successfully hatches them?

I don't know if there were eggs, and if there were, why didn't Ned take them? If anything, those eggs would have belonged to Jon. If those eggs traveled from Summerhall to Dorne to Essos, look at the three Targs that may have bonded with them. And if that's the case, then I will laugh and laugh and laugh.

About the hatching, maybe no one was trying to hatch them. Maybe Rhaegar didn't feel it was time for that just yet. Considering how Summerhall went up in flames, I'd think he would be a lot more cautious about how he handled this fiery situation. 

That said, notice the environment in which Dany hatched her dragons (and her own rebirth), the circumstances of Rhaegar's birth and where he was born, and where Jon was born. 

There's actually a lot more that I've noticed and I've been meaning to sit write about it, but I haven't had the chance yet (that should read I'm being lazy and easily distracted because I'm being lazy).

[The Commentator]

6 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

But if they had remained loyal to Aerys shouldn't they had fled to DS to keep Viserys save or at least see what happend to him. When he and Dany fled to Esoss they could have followed without trying to get in DS.

IMO what they did, staying at the ToJ meant they were loyal to Rheagar and his idea of the 3 headed Drageon/Ptwp and leaving Aerys and his heir. after Aerys death Viserys was their king, they had to protect him. They acted totaly against what I think a KG should have done, they acted like dying fighting was their biggest goal, but shouldn't it be saving the life of who every they wanted to protect, even that meant diplomacy, fleeing or bending knees.

What was their plan anyway, if they defeated Ned? I am sure there were more insiders to Rheagars plan. Where they would raise the baby? with or without Lyanna? had they proof for the babys father like a Targaryen ring or a sword, when Rheagar left he wouldn't know if the baby would look like a Targaryen?

What was Rheagars plan? did he thing only because he could show the world a baby with Lyanna the Starks, Baratheons and Arrys would change their mind and stop the rebellion? or was he so convinced of him self that he never doubted he wouldn't kill/defeat Robert and Ned?

I think to know why the KG fight at tToJ, we need to know was their plan was.

How are they getting to Dragonstone easily?  Those loyal to the Usurper now control the roads and the ports.  Maybe they were on their way to Dorne and made a brief stop at the tower of joy when Ned just happened upon them.  They were on the run and a plea to the Martells to continue the fight against the Usurper might be what they had in mind.  There are many, many possible explanations for why they were there and many more reasons for why the fight to the death could not be avoided.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 11/1/2017 at 9:33 AM, Nina DarkSister said:

Maybe Varys found out about Dany in Dorne and the house robbery with the red door was a smokescreen created by Varys to extract Dany from there and sent the eggs to Pentos with Illyrio. Maybe Dany came to Viserys as a suitor who knows. This would explain Dany's connection to the eggs and so Illyrio did not give the eggs to the Young Griff. Illyrio never bought those eggs. I believe that Rhaegar was the greatest puppet of the COF. 

If Dany is in fact an imposter - the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna - the only way I think it is possible is if Varys was involved in the switch. I mean, technically it could have happened without him involved. But if Dany was the only child born at the ToJ, then Jon is probably the son of Brandon and Ashara, and the only likely way for that to happen with the timeline is if Brandon conceived Jon while he was a prisoner in the black cells right before he died, and then Ned lied about his age by a couple months to pretend he is younger than Robb. And if Ashara did sneak into the black cells to conceive Jon, the visit probably would have had to be facilitated by Varys. And as we know, Varys has a history of baby swapping and passing off fake Targaryens as real (even though the imposter Dany would still be "real" obviously, being the daughter of Rhaegar).

I highly doubt Varys/Illyrio gave Dany the eggs thinking they wouldn't hatch. If the original Dany didn't have the right genes to hatch dragon eggs (and Varys knows about such things being a gatherer of knowledge) or if she was stillborn, Varys' long term plan would benefit by swapping her with an imposter with the right genes, that imposter being ToJ Dany. So he took a baby with the right genes and gave her a false identity that he eventually utilized to sell her to Drogo. It is certainly a better sell to claim that (f)Dany is Dany rather than claiming she is some secret baby no one ever knew existed.

[Thesilea Greyjoy]

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That flight was months later, at the time of the ToJ showdown, Rhaella may not have been even aware she was pregnant.

Yes, you're right, following Darry flight was to late.

But why would that matter if Rhaella was pregnant? Viserys was there. I not sure if a second son of the king comes in line after the son of the dead first son of the king or first, i couldn't found an example in WoIaF. But after Aegon died, i think the message about the sack of KL reached the ToJ somehow, Viserys was king anyway. 

 

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If Jon was legitimate, or at least legitimate enough in the eyes of Rhaegar's followers, and they didn't know about Aerys' choice of heir, then fighting to the death (of their opponents) was the only choice to keep the baby safe from anyone who would perceive his very existence as a threat to the new regime.

But they only fought not trying anything else, fighting to death should be their last choice. Ned and his few men were probably the best opportunity to negotiate, if they wouldn't agree they could still fight. Ned was related to that baby, he wouldn't just kill it. He was her sister, especially when she can tell him that it was not rape. Arthur and Ned could have a nice talk about sisters and what a brother would do for them.

 

Ser Gerold said :

Quote

“The Kingsguard does not flee.” aGoT, Eddard

They had to flee anyway after Lyanna was dead with or without fighting Ned. There were no one left on Targaryen side but Martell(more or less) and Dragonstone, making a deal with Ned was their best chance, they would be more usefull to Rhargars heir alive, raising him like Young Griff was and even have a confidant in the inner circel of the new king.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

IMHO: to rely on the secrecy and wait till Lyanna either recovered or died, and meanwhile make preparations for spiriting Jon away so that he could be raised in safety. 

but why Toj in the first place they know Lyanna was pregnant for at least 7 month (if she didn't check it at first). why a lonely tower in nowhere, not a best place to get a baby or get help. The rebellion had a chance to win. So have a worst case plan, get to DS or Martell but not only 3 guys with a pregnant girl in nowhere.

That whole story is fishy:

Why were there 3 KG?

and no one else?

Why at this place?

Why fight?

Why fight out side and not entrench themself in the tower?

How did Ned find it?

How did they win?

How did they bring down a tower?

I would be surprised when in the end most things went differently than we think know.

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

If Dany is in fact an imposter - the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna - the only way I think it is possible is if Varys was involved in the switch. I mean, technically it could have happened without him involved. But if Dany was the only child born at the ToJ, then Jon is probably the son of Brandon and Ashara, and the only likely way for that to happen with the timeline is if Brandon conceived Jon while he was a prisoner in the black cells right before he died, and then Ned lied about his age by a couple months to pretend he is younger than Robb. And if Ashara did sneak into the black cells to conceive Jon, the visit probably would have had to be facilitated by Varys. And as we know, Varys has a history of baby swapping and passing off fake Targaryens as real (even though the imposter Dany would still be "real" obviously, being the daughter of Rhaegar).

I highly doubt Varys/Illyrio gave Dany the eggs thinking they wouldn't hatch. If the original Dany didn't have the right genes to hatch dragon eggs (and Varys knows about such things being a gatherer of knowledge) or if she was stillborn, Varys' long term plan would benefit by swapping her with an imposter with the right genes, that imposter being ToJ Dany. So he took a baby with the right genes and gave her a false identity that he eventually utilized to sell her to Drogo. It is certainly a better sell to claim that (f)Dany is Dany rather than claiming she is some secret baby no one ever knew existed.

Certainly possible and very interesting your line of thinking about it. I do not know if you've read the parallel between the Tower of Joy and Khal Drogo's Tent which is quite impressive and could perhaps help us understand why there was a fight in the Tower. Here's the link: http://thelasthearth.com/thread/75/inversion-fun-mmd-tent-ritual?page=1

[Ygrain]

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

But why would that matter if Rhaella was pregnant? Viserys was there.

It didn't, it was merely a part of the correction that Dany was not born yet. Viserys' presence is all that is required - by all logic of the KG duty, they should go to him ASAP, at least one of them.

 

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

I not sure if a second son of the king comes in line after the son of the dead first son of the king or first, i couldn't found an example in WoIaF. But after Aegon died, i think the message about the sack of KL reached the ToJ somehow, Viserys was king anyway. 

Indeed. Realistic or not, the important thing that the convo shows is that the KG are up-to-date with the latest events: the Trident and the Sack, and that Viserys is alive at DS.

 

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

But they only fought not trying anything else, fighting to death should be their last choice. Ned and his few men were probably the best opportunity to negotiate, if they wouldn't agree they could still fight. Ned was related to that baby, he wouldn't just kill it. He was her sister, especially when she can tell him that it was not rape. Arthur and Ned could have a nice talk about sisters and what a brother would do for them.

Ser Gerold said :

They had to flee anyway after Lyanna was dead with or without fighting Ned. There were no one left on Targaryen side but Martell(more or less) and Dragonstone, making a deal with Ned was their best chance, they would be more usefull to Rhargars heir alive, raising him like Young Griff was and even have a confidant in the inner circel of the new king.

You might be interested in reading this analysis of the ToJ scene, I believe its interpretation of "fleeing" answers your objection.

 

 

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

but why Toj in the first place they know Lyanna was pregnant for at least 7 month (if she didn't check it at first). why a lonely tower in nowhere, not a best place to get a baby or get help. The rebellion had a chance to win. So have a worst case plan, get to DS or Martell but not only 3 guys with a pregnant girl in nowhere.

Thing is, we don't know when exactly they arrived at the tower. Certainly before Rhaegar's return to KL, or else he wouldn't call it "tower of joy", but they may not have been hiding there the whole time. 

As for the bolded: ToJ is an abandoned old watchtower where no-one ever goes, yet it is close to a communication route which a messenger or a supply cart can take without raising anyone's suspicion. Sort of, the darkest under the candlestick. However, the outbreak of the rebellion probably made them stay longer than originally anticipated, and the ToJ definitely wasn't the original plan for Lyanna's pregnancy. Either they couldn't find another hideout, or had to interrupt their journey to one, e.g. due to Lyanna's condition during the pregnancy.

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

That whole story is fishy:

Why were there 3 KG?

My interpretation: 

- best and most loyal protection to be found, who won't abandon their duty or babble about it

- Rhaegar didn't want the KG back in KL where Aerys could order them to reveal where Lyanna was and then take her hostage

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

and no one else?

There was someone else, because they found Ned holding Lyanna's body, i.e. Howland Reed + another person(s). Two survivors of the fight of seven against three as well as GRRM's confirmation that they were the only men to leave ToJ, allows for a woman/women tending to Lyanna.

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

Why fight?

IMHO: incompatible goals. Ned wouldn't have harmed the baby but would be honour-bound to inform Robert about his existence, who in turn would have someone do the dirty work with "another dragonling". The KG would want to keep the baby secret and raise him to overthrow Robert one day, which Ned wouldn't allow. Even if Ned could be talked down and trusted to keep the secret, the six other men with him were too much of a security risk to let them live. 

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

Why fight out side and not entrench themself in the tower?

If the objective was to eliminate the security risk, engaging all the enemies in combat is safer than allowing them to send for reinforcement.

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

How did Ned find it?

Lol, someone told. Someone always tells.

Options that have been discussed:

- Rhaegar himself, as a contingency plan to protect Lyanna, should he fall, most likely via Ethan Glover

- Lyanna herself sent a message to Ned, post-Trident

- Ashara, at Lyanna's request

- the KG themselves, post-Trident but before the news of the Sack reached them

...

Take your pick. Some people suggest Varys, but there is no indication that Varys knew about ToJ or that Ned owed him for such an important service.

 

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

How did they win?

By using unconventional weapon, such as Howland's net. Besides Meera using it proficiently, there is an analogy in Barristan's chapters, when he thinks that a whip is useless against an armored knight, but seeing the whip used to immobilize the opponent, he changes his mind. The net was used for the very same purpose by Roman gladiators, retiarii.

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

How did they bring down a tower?

Burnt the wooden infrastructure, IMHO.

10 hours ago, Thesilea Greyjoy said:

I would be surprised when in the end most things went differently than we think know.

You mean, you wouldn't, right? :-)

Me neither, the dream is more like a gist of what happened, the details are bound to be different.