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Why did they have to fight at the ToJ?


Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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19 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

So? his life belonged to House Targaryen, Barristan was supposed to die for them. Yet, at the Trident, Rhaegar was killed, his children were butchered in Robert's name, and Robert was more than happy to reward those who killed them. After all this, and Barristan agreed to become the Lord Commander of Robert's Kingsguard.

Do you sincerely want someone like that protecting you? that Daenerys found it in herself to pardon someone she should never pardon shows she is strong at the very least. I would never pardon Barristan.

 

You mean the guy who cut through the Golden Company to kill Maelys the Monstrous,  killed Simon Toyne in single combat and single handily stormed Duskendale killing Symon Hollard and carried of Aerys with an arrow in his chest , fought on the Trident until he was wounded so badly only Robert sending him his Maester saved him and at the age of 60+ defeated the Titan's bastard with a staff saving Daenerys from a horrible death .

yea I want that guy protecting me no question about it . 

 

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1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

You mean the guy who cut through the Golden Company to kill Maelys the Monstrous,  killed Simon Toyne in single combat and single handily stormed Duskendale killing Symon Hollard and carried of Aerys with an arrow in his chest , fought on the Trident until he was wounded so badly only Robert sending him his Maester saved him and at the age of 60+ defeated the Titan's bastard with a staff saving Daenerys from a horrible death .

yea I want that guy protecting me no question about it . 

 

:agree:I actually can't think of anyone I would rather have protecting me. 

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12 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Just to play devil's advocate, it may be that they were waiting for Lyanna to give birth before traveling, and she was in labor or had very recently given birth when Ned arrived.

But yeah I don't see any good reason for the fight if you take the story at face value.

And just to add to my original thought, it may be that they weren't just trying to vaguely fulfill prophecy by sacrificing Lyanna. They could have been trying to hatch dragons. After all, the Tragedy at Summerhall (where Rhaegar was born) was an attempt to hatch dragons, and Aemon was convinced by Dany's dragons that she was the PtwP. Lyanna certainly qualifies as having kingsblood in at least one sense (descended from the Kings of Winter), and Mel was always going on about hatching dragons from stone with a kingsblood sacrifice.

Maybe the KG were the sacrifices? 

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I said die for the King, not with him :-) Meaning, they should be willing to defend the King even at the cost of their own lives, but if they are elsewhere and the King dies, they live and serve his successor.

Perhaps Ned turned up while arrangements were still under way? Grab the baby and be gone is actually not as easy as it sounds if you are Kingsguard - not only you have to arrange someone reliable to take care of the newborn, but you also have to make sure that your rather famous face won't be recognized anywhere near the baby because it would be like a red flag leading to an investigation what the hell you are doing there (which allows for the theory of Jon being already moved from ToJ to Starfall - the KG are taking care to maintain the secret at Lyanna's end while Jon is safer apart from them, under the completely mundane identity of Wylla's baby. Returning Dawn is then used as a convenient coverup for the trip to Starfall to pick Jon)

Besides, there is Lyanna, who, in her condition, probably couldn't be moved; she had to be kept secret, as well, because if people found out that she had given birth, there would be a search for the baby.

I agree about the KG but being willing to die to protect them & dying for honors sake are different things. 

I know there would be issues with traveling with the baby but Ned managed it shortly after the fight. 

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I don't see why Barristan should have taken the black. He did exactly what he was supposed to do: serve the crown. 

The point of having the KG as an institution is to prevent personal loyalties from interfering. Of course they were de facto House Targaryen guards for centuries, but the were ample opportunities for KG to pick sides during the various Blackfyre uprisings (maybe some did, I'd have to search).

The corruption of the guard during Robert's rebellion is part of the "death of honor/duty" theme, as the KG became more like the Roman Praetorian guard, taking matters of succession into their own hands.

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5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe the KG were the sacrifices? 

Also a possibility. In which case I could see 2 possible scenarios. Either they died fighting Ned on purpose (though I don't see how they could have planned for such an event), or they intended to burn themselves in the ToJ (probably with Lyanna too). But with the latter case I'm not sure what their plan was for taking care of the child. I suppose they would have to depend on Wylla to carry out the rest of the mission post-sacrifice.

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According to their vows they should have been obeying Aerys’s orders, not Rhaegar’s (unless Aerys told them to obey Rhaegar, which doesn’t seem likely). In that case their instructions might have been not so much to protect Lyanna as to keep her (and her baby) locked up no matter what. Come to think of it, maybe Aerys had Rhaegar locked up initially and only released him when he decided he was needed to fight Robert.

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26 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

According to their vows they should have been obeying Aerys’s orders, not Rhaegar’s (unless Aerys told them to obey Rhaegar, which doesn’t seem likely). In that case their instructions might have been not so much to protect Lyanna as to keep her (and her baby) locked up no matter what. Come to think of it, maybe Aerys had Rhaegar locked up initially and only released him when he decided he was needed to fight Robert.

My thought is that the three KG at the tower were in on Rhaegar's plot to depose Aerys. It's possible Rhaegar was attempting to start a whole new succession with new allies. They were doubly treasonous, so it was victory or death. 

If there was to be a sacrifice, I suspect it would have been Rhaegar himself. I have no proof of course, but I think his own death was prophesied to him and he was doing everything he could to perform his own role in stopping the Long Night before dying, only realizing at the very end that his death on the Trident was the necessary  sacrifice. Or maybe Lyanna's death was foretold and he thought he could prevent it.

The events as they transpired were exactly what resulted in Jon being sent to the Wall and discovering truth of the Others. Had Rhaegar lived and defeated Robert, Jon would be just another spoiled royal at court waiting to take a seat of power.

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31 minutes ago, cgrav said:

My thought is that the three KG at the tower were in on Rhaegar's plot to depose Aerys. It's possible Rhaegar was attempting to start a whole new succession with new allies. They were doubly treasonous, so it was victory or death. 

If there was to be a sacrifice, I suspect it would have been Rhaegar himself. I have no proof of course, but I think his own death was prophesied to him and he was doing everything he could to perform his own role in stopping the Long Night before dying, only realizing at the very end that his death on the Trident was the necessary  sacrifice. Or maybe Lyanna's death was foretold and he thought he could prevent it.

The events as they transpired were exactly what resulted in Jon being sent to the Wall and discovering truth of the Others. Had Rhaegar lived and defeated Robert, Jon would be just another spoiled royal at court waiting to take a seat of power.

It's hard to imagine the KG - well this particular KG being involved in overthrowing their King. They are so honorable they potentially die for it. If they were acting against Aerys I think there has to be something more going on here. Possibly they would disregard Aerys &/or his orders if they believed they were saving humanity - by stopping the Long Night but not to just put Rhaegar on the throne. 

Very interesting about Jon. You're exactly right. 

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56 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

According to their vows they should have been obeying Aerys’s orders, not Rhaegar’s (unless Aerys told them to obey Rhaegar, which doesn’t seem likely). In that case their instructions might have been not so much to protect Lyanna as to keep her (and her baby) locked up no matter what. Come to think of it, maybe Aerys had Rhaegar locked up initially and only released him when he decided he was needed to fight Robert.

This may be the case but if so why? Why would their orders be to keep Lyanna & the baby locked up no matter what? 

Something else I thought was interesting I saw in another thread is the meaning of "Now it begins" is the consensus that Arthur just had the most epic thing ever to say before a fight or is he speaking of something else beginning? 

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7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Something else I thought was interesting I saw in another thread is the meaning of "Now it begins" is the consensus that Arthur just had the most epic thing ever to say before a fight or is he speaking of something else beginning? 

Based on nothing really, I always thought it was the beginning of something else, like the beginning of the end. But I also think that these 3 lines'

"Now it begins"
"No, now it ends" and 
"A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death"

are lines that are supposed to be taken together. I don't necessarily think that a red comet was in the sky (actually I do totally think that there was a comet in the sky), but the imagery of the red streak against a canvas of blue to me screams Others vs AA. In the first book, we have no idea about red comets and resurrections and AA/PtwP. If that's what Arthur's line refers to, then for him, this is the start of the real fight. 

Ned's very first act when we see him through Bran's eyes is beheading a deserter of the Night's Watch. If I recall properly he tells Cat that the man was incoherent, had gone mad, but he beheads him anyway without trying to understand what it is that turned that made him go mad. "Now, now it ends."

Like I said, based on nothing, really.

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5 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Based on nothing really, I always thought it was the beginning of something else, like the beginning of the end. But I also think that these 3 lines'

"Now it begins"
"No, now it ends" and 
"A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death"

are lines that are supposed to be taken together. I don't necessarily think that a red comet was in the sky (actually I do totally think that there was a comet in the sky), but the imagery of the red streak against a canvas of blue to me screams Others vs AA. In the first book, we have no idea about red comets and resurrections and AA/PtwP. If that's what Arthur's line refers to, then for him, this is the start of the real fight. 

Ned's very first act when we see him through Bran's eyes is beheading a deserter of the Night's Watch. If I recall properly he tells Cat that the man was incoherent, had gone mad, but he beheads him anyway without trying to understand what it is that turned that made him go mad. "Now, now it ends."

Like I said, based on nothing, really.

Interesting. Maybe the KG knew the events of that day would put into motion Jon being put into a position to see the others & eventually (hopefully) defeat them. 

On a side note as much as I enjoy discussing things here & imagining every single possible "what if" & "maybe" I do wish George would give us some new material to discuss. 

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45 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Interesting. Maybe the KG knew the events of that day would put into motion Jon being put into a position to see the others & eventually (hopefully) defeat them. 

On a side note as much as I enjoy discussing things here & imagining every single possible "what if" & "maybe" I do wish George would give us some new material to discuss. 

LOL you know he released Sons of the Dragon like a week ago right? ;) 

And there is totally a thread specifically for discussing it pinned on the forum

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4 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL you know he released Sons of the Dragon like a week ago right? ;) 

And there is totally a thread specifically for discussing it pinned on the forum

Haha I do. I haven't read it. I want WoW! Lol! I'm going to read Sons soon though. 

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's hard to imagine the KG - well this particular KG being involved in overthrowing their King. They are so honorable they potentially die for it. If they were acting against Aerys I think there has to be something more going on here.

Did they go straight down there when they left King's Landing? I can't recall if Aerys or Rhaegar assigned the KG to their various locations. If I recall, Aerys wanted Jaime specifically to remain with him for some reason of paranoia, but I don't know if he gave specific orders to the rest. My notion that they were in on a plot is because Dayne was a good friend and Hightower was LC. And if you want to start a new royal family, you probably want the LC of the KG in your corner.

I don't know, It kinda seems like they actually prepared to defend Rhaegar's secret family. Aerys's safety does not appear to have been taken very seriously.

 

edit:  Aerys was the sacrifice

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On 17/10/2017 at 1:01 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Couldn't this have been solved by some conversation? AND speaking of conversation is this not an odd exchange? Why did they have this particular conversation? Why not, hey I want my sister back? I want to see her & make sure she isn't harmed? It seems to me as if neither side really wanted to fight but felt honor bound to do it. Why? 

Because they weren't Lyanna's men they were Rhaegar's and if he said to kill anyone who tries to save her then they will, do you think they cared that she was screaming for her brother? 

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9 hours ago, cgrav said:

I don't know, It kinda seems like they actually prepared to defend Rhaegar's secret family. Aerys's safety does not appear to have been taken very seriously.

I don't think it would come as a surprise to anyone if we find out those Kingsguard had bent the knee to Rhaegar. I don't think it would have been difficult to sway the others to his side when the time came. I could be mistaken, but Barristan's POV seems to indicate that he would have gone over to Rhaegar. We always talk about how Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend, but Barry and Gerry H. knew Rhaegar his entire life. 

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Interesting. Maybe the KG knew the events of that day would put into motion Jon being put into a position to see the others & eventually (hopefully) defeat them. 

We have no way of knowing that. But I'm assuming that Howland Reed will be able to shed light on this. Howland Reed was studying at the Isle of Faces right before Harrenhal, and sent his children to Bran without hesitation. Howland Reed probably went to the ToJ because he knew what they would find there. We are told that this guy isn't good at sitting a horse. Can you imagine how uncomfortable his journey to Dorne might have been? And he's the one who essentially put an end or a stop to the fight between Ned and Arthur. For the record, I don't think Arthur is dead. And if he isn't, then I'm convinced he'll turn up at the Wall. And we have one person at the Wall who would for sure recognize him.

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14 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Because they weren't Lyanna's men they were Rhaegar's and if he said to kill anyone who tries to save her then they will,

If she needed saving, then why she had fear in her eyes when her beloved brother Ned stepped inside the tower? she only smiled when Ned promised to protect Jon.

It seems clear to me, she cared more about her child than House Stark, and she knew Jon would be in danger now that his father was killed, and Rhaegar was killed with her family's help.

Also, the show didn't help by making the entire thing look like a family reunion, which from the books, we know that was not the case.

16 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

do you think they cared that she was screaming for her brother? 

She never screamed for Ned, she could barely talk, as Ned himself remembers: "her voice had been faint as a whisper"

Ned's dream wasn't literal, that Lyanna screamed in Ned's dream was something that happened only in his dream, because it was a nightmare for Ned.

 

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2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Because they weren't Lyanna's men they were Rhaegar's and if he said to kill anyone who tries to save her then they will, do you think they cared that she was screaming for her brother? 

I didn't mean that the KG cared she was screaming for her brother. I was only saying that the conversation was odd & pointing out that Ned didn't ask them about Lyanna. Maybe he did & we just didn't get that part of the convo yet. 

 

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

We have no way of knowing that. But I'm assuming that Howland Reed will be able to shed light on this. Howland Reed was studying at the Isle of Faces right before Harrenhal, and sent his children to Bran without hesitation. Howland Reed probably went to the ToJ because he knew what they would find there. We are told that this guy isn't good at sitting a horse. Can you imagine how uncomfortable his journey to Dorne might have been? And he's the one who essentially put an end or a stop to the fight between Ned and Arthur. For the record, I don't think Arthur is dead. And if he isn't, then I'm convinced he'll turn up at the Wall. And we have one person at the Wall who would for sure recognize him.

Well no we don't I'm just speculating. 

 

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

don't think it would come as a surprise to anyone if we find out those Kingsguard had bent the knee to Rhaegar. I don't think it would have been difficult to sway the others to his side when the time came. I could be mistaken, but Barristan's POV seems to indicate that he would have gone over to Rhaegar. We always talk about how Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend, but Barry and Gerry H. knew Rhaegar his entire life. 

I, for one, would find it very surprising if some of the most honorable men ever set aside their rightful King for anything or anyone other than possibly trying to save all of humanity/Westeros. 

 

11 minutes ago, Reekazoid said:

 Mind = Blown

 

 Very interesting perspective... This theory might have legs.

It would be crazy right? I'll have to mull this over. 

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Barristan's POV seems to indicate that he would have gone over to Rhaegar. We always talk about how Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend, but Barry and Gerry H. knew Rhaegar his entire life

I think there's also a subtext to Ned's private thoughts and interactions with Robert that Ned would have supported Rhaegar, too, but felt honor-bound to help his more immediate allies.

I'm surprised I haven't seen a thorough side-by-side of Ned and JonCon, both acting as father to one of Rhaegar's (supposed) children and emotionally unable to move past their losses. 

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