Jonsa

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, AryaGreyjoy said:

Elio has not called Martin to know for sure. It's his opinion. Also, Elio is not Martin. Everything is true, regardless of who bears it.

Nope. Seems pretty fake to me. If there is an English version that was first, as that article claims, then why do we only have a translation of a translation? There are many things that are rather suspect about this article, including the author still has not updated his blog to verify any of this 

http://grrm.livejournal.com/

I am very suspect of this until it is conformed by either the author on his blog, or even @Ran  

Adding: even a basic cursory browse shows there are issues with this article authenticity. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/79tun7/spoilers_extended_new_grrm_interview_google/

 

[Ran]

As others guessed, this is a hoax. The perpetrator has been banned.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

As others guessed, this is a hoax. The perpetrator has been banned.

Thanks! 

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎31‎.‎10‎.‎2017 at 11:58 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

True true, if you prefer another option... what happened to Willem's four loyal men? And besides Ned and Howland (who returned) how many men fought the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy? I'm just suggesting possibilities, clearly haven't found any proof.

Can just give an answer to this part for now, here's another child smugglin

A Storm of Swords - Davos VI

 

Quote

 

The title still rang queer in his ears, yet Davos turned away from the window. "Aye. It's time." Stannis, Melisandre, and the queen's men would be at their prayers an hour or more. The red priests lit their fires every day at sunset, to thank R'hllor for the day just ending, and beg him to send his sun back on the morrow to banish the gathering darkness. A smuggler must know the tides and when to seize them. That was all he was at the end of the day; Davos the smuggler. His maimed hand rose to his throat for his luck, and found nothing. He snatched it down and walked a bit more quickly.

His companions kept pace, matching their strides to his own. The Bastard of Nightsong had a pox-ravaged face and an air of tattered chivalry; Ser Gerald Gower was broad, bluff, and blond; Ser Andrew Estermont stood a head taller, with a spade-shaped beard and shaggy brown eye-brows. They were all good men in their own ways, Davos thought. And they will all be dead men soon, if this night's work goes badly.

 

....

 

The young maester smiled. "That's so. Go now."

Davos had been uncertain of Pylos. Perhaps he resented him for taking old Cressen's place. But now he could only admire the man's courage. This could mean his life as well.

 

Davos, Andrew Estermont, Gerald Gower, Rolland Storm and Maester Pylos. One planner and Four other loyal men now as it was then. Only two leave, Davos, Rolland and Pylos remain

[LiveFirstDieLater]

46 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Can just give an answer to this part for now, here's another child smugglin

A Storm of Swords - Davos VI

 

Davos, Andrew Estermont, Gerald Gower, Rolland Storm and Maester Pylos. One planner and Four other loyal men now as it was then. Only two leave, Davos, Rolland and Pylos remain

Fantastic connection! 

46 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

They were all good men in their own ways, Davos thought. And they will all be dead men soon, if this night's work goes badly.

Good men and true... but not of the kingsguard!

[loveigniting09]

On 10/17/2017 at 8:27 PM, TRILOGY said:

There's some kind of witch hunt against people who like the idea of the two together, and I don't understand the hate. There is a lot of foreshadowing in the books to support this theory but I have no problem being wrong. 

There's a "witch" hunt because there is no foreshadowing to support this theory except reaches and missing the forest for the weeds. And, yet, people keep acting like this is plausible at all in the books and try to convince the rest of us of this foreshadowing. 

The threads you linked to have plenty of rebuttals within them that provide strong evidence against this "foreshadowing." And while I won't click on the Jonsa tumblr fan "meta", I'm sure it includes gems that I have come across. I wonder if the Tourney of Ashford is mentioned despite the fact that Sweetrobin's not accounted for, the Tourney doesn't take place, and Aegon exists. Or Jon cutting off Janos Slynt's head despite the fact that this is a fan addition. There was a new theory out stating that when the Seven were burned on Dragonstone, the Warrior and the Maiden embraced each other and that's meant to be Jonsa foreshadowing. In that recent theory, Robb is the Smith, which makes no sense whatsoever, but this is a classic example of working backwards from the shippers' preferred conclusion and forcing information to support their theory. 

Arya is not interchangeable with Sansa, Jon doesn't need to marry Sansa in any scenario for political convenience, George flat out said in an SSM that Jon has a type and it's formed by his relationship with Arya so genuine attraction is a no, Jon condescends towards Westerosi noblewomen, and he's still triggered by Cat's memory.

If George was setting it up, wouldn't you think he would have Jon react with concern for Sansa when he found out about Sansa's forced marriage to Tyrion? Instead, Jon thought about Tyrion fondly and didn't spare a thought for Sansa. As Jon knows Sansa already and has been socialized as her brother, George would need to lay the foundations for the characters to go from an established dynamic to lovers in two books...and he doesn't. He gives Sansa regret towards Jon being her last brother, but on Jon's side, there's nothing of the sort. In fact, when Stannis offered Jon Winterfell, he was going to take it if not Stannis' demands and his realization that WF belonged to the Old Gods. It's only after he's already decided against taking Stannis' offer that Jon tells him that WF belongs to Sansa. 

I dislike Jon/Arya too, but at least those fans have somewhat of a point when they cite the closeness George has set up for Jon and Arya. I say this because George doesn't use lack of closeness and lack of affinity as the basis for his predominant incest ships. In fact, he uses affinity as his base for why characters engage in consensual incest (not the arranged Targaryen marriages for instance). Jaime and Cersei were extremely close as children and this is mentioned in text.

It's gross from a modern POV - and I see people cite their personal feelings of why the distance between Jon/Sansa makes them more palatable but that uncomfortable closeness is what George has based his consensual incest ships on. If he's doing incest, he's not going to obscure it by saying "they weren't that close, they didn't REALLY see each other as brother and sister." I hate to cite that outline, but it's evidence against this idea that George would use lack of affinity as a basis for a ship. Even the outline uses Jon and Arya's affinity for each other, driving them together while they try to fight it.  Now, if you want to suppose a loveless marriage where they're forced to marry, that works with George's pattern too as his lack of affinity incest relationships marry and continue on unhappily or they tolerate each other. See: Aegon and Naerys, Aerys and Rhaella, Aegon and Visenya.

But I've never once been convinced that undead Jon with Robb's will floating around needs to marry disinherited Sansa. I doubt that the truth of him not being Ned's son is going to be believed or spread enough that the North would understand a marriage between Jon and his sister(s). Joffrey died a Baratheon despite the truth of Jaime being his father, I think fAegon will die a Targaryen despite the truth, and Jon when he dies will die as Ned's son despite readers knowing the truth.

This theory posits a conclusion and then works backwards to support its conclusion.

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

29 minutes ago, loveigniting09 said:

 Will come back to this post in umpteen years when ADOS is published.

Same. 

[loveigniting09]

18 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Same. 

You're free to believe that you'll be validated when/if ADOS is ever published but it makes me laugh a little that you're serious. George has set up multiple glaring paths for both characters and Jonsa fans are using microscopes to point out the ant trail you've moved to make happen. You wanted to know why people make fun of this ship and this is why. It was fine when it was a crackship people shipped for fun. But then S6 came out and people started saying it was going to happen. You do you  

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

10 minutes ago, loveigniting09 said:

You're free to believe that you'll be validated when/if ADOS is ever published but it makes me laugh a little that you're serious. George has set up multiple glaring paths for both characters and Jonsa fans are using microscopes to point out the ant trail you've moved to make happen. You wanted to know why people make fun of this ship and this is why. It was fine when it was a crackship people shipped for fun. But then S6 came out and people started saying it was going to happen. You do you  

Finding joy in ridiculing people's opinions and laughing at them is weird. 

"But then S6 came out and people started saying it was going to happen."

And what's the problem with that? It's just a crackship, right? This forum is full of theories and not all of them are credible, take a second and realize that people can and will believe whatever they want, and I'm sure George doesn't have a problem with it. 

I hope he finishes TWOW soon, more theories to come. 

[Pikachu101]

5 hours ago, loveigniting09 said:

But then S6 came out and people started saying it was going to happen. 

This is why I hate the show, it's bad enough that if I google Aegon VI I get pictures of Jon and in another topic someone was insisting Elia's marriage was annulled.  

You're right though, outside of the show Jonsa isn't really a thing and as this is a book thread I'm going to have to reject the possibility of the couple ever happening. 

[Serafina]

It says a lot that people can't watch a male and a female characters' relationship without blowing it out of proportion and making it a romantic thing. In the show, Jon and Sansa are close alright because they are brother and sister, because they grew up together and share fond memories of Winterfell, because they both faced traumatic experiences and because they support each other (as brother and sister should). They are siblings and friends. Get a grip, people.

[Corvo the Crow]

18 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Fantastic connection! 

Good men and true... but not of the kingsguard!

Thanks. I wonder do we have "of the Kingsguard" this time? If so, Who would those be?

Besides, we've seen yet another royal child smuggling again; Aemon replaced with little monster.

So many baby swaps and child smuggling in the series. I wonder if (b)Aemon would die soon (because he is a baby named prior to his 2nd birth date) and (f)Aemon will rally the wildlings to his cause for Kingdom Beyond the Wall.

 

@Serafina What you say is exactly the reason why we get the Jon and Dany shippings. Especially for the show.

 

 

[Serafina]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

@Serafina What you say is exactly the reason why we get the Jon and Dany shippings. Especially for the show.

That's my point actually  Why make a well-written friendship between a male and a female characters a romantic relationship... 

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

6 hours ago, Serafina said:

That's my point actually  Why make a well-written friendship between a male and a female characters a romantic relationship... 

That's true, platonic well-written male-female relationships are rare. 

I still stand by what I said though, people "ship" Arya/Jon, Sansa/Sandor, Theon/Sansa, Dany/Jon, Jon/Sansa, etc. Different perspectives, same material, all of them are valid but George decides what is canon/romantic/platonic and what is not, two more books to go. 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

2 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

That's true, platonic well-written male-female relationships are rare. 

I still stand by what I said though, people "ship" Arya/Jon, Sansa/Sandor, Theon/Sansa, Dany/Jon, Jon/Sansa, etc. Different perspectives, same material, all of them are valid but George decides what is canon/romantic/platonic and what is not, two more books to go. 

This is pure speculation, but I don't think Jonsa is possible in the books.Then again, I actually do not believe that Sansa will end up with any character that we have already been introduced to, other than Tyrion (if Littlfinger is unable to dissolve their marriage). As for Sansa's situation in the next book, George has warned us that the 'The Winds of Winter' will be extremely dark and situations will get dire for our POV characters. Which makes me terrified for Sansa (no rescue coming her way). Lord Baelish might take things drastically further with his sexual grooming of her, which would fit the darkness George warned us about.

 In 'A Dream of Spring' I don't think she would willingly end up with anyone anytime soon. Let's presume Baelish dies in ADOS and Sansa is finally free of his control: she is still 13, a child, and has been constantly forced into betrothals or marriages throughout the series. Sansa's most likely to celebrate her freedom and refuse to tie herself to another male for a few years time. Maybe she will turn her focus to restoring Winterfell and help rebuild after the war. She would dedicate herself to practical things where her needlework skills and house running experience will be needed. I doubt her head would be filled with romantic notion to rush into a relationship or marriage.

But then again, when has George ever written what readers expect? We can all speculate, but only George knows.

[Serafina]

9 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

I still stand by what I said though, people "ship" Arya/Jon, Sansa/Sandor, Theon/Sansa, Dany/Jon, Jon/Sansa, etc. Different perspectives, same material, all of them are valid but George decides what is canon/romantic/platonic and what is not, two more books to go. 

*passes out*

 

6 hours ago, Houseofthedirewolves said:

As for Sansa's situation in the next book, George has warned us that the 'The Winds of Winter' will be extremely dark and situations will get dire for our POV characters. Which makes me terrified for Sansa (no rescue coming her way). Lord Baelish might take things drastically further with his sexual grooming of her, which would fit the darkness George warned us about.

I am not sure it will work though, Littlefinger crossed a line when he kissed Sansa and she seems not able to trust him anymore.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Serafina said:

I am not sure it will work though, Littlefinger crossed a line when he kissed Sansa and she seems not able to trust him anymore.

He also sees her/ wants to see her as his daughter so more incest themes?

Quote

"What . . . what game?"

"The only game. The game of thrones." He brushed back a strand of her hair. "You are old enough to know that your mother and I were more than friends. There was a time when Cat was all I wanted in this world. I dared to dream of the life we might make and the children she would give me . . . but she was a daughter of Riverrun, and Hoster Tully. Family, Duty, Honor, Sansa. Family, Duty, Honor meant I could never have her hand. But she gave me something finer, a gift a woman can give but once. How could I turn my back upon her daughter? In a better world, you might have been mine, not Eddard Stark's. My loyal loving daughter . . . Put Joffrey from your mind, sweetling. Dontos, Tyrion, all of them. They will never trouble you again. You are safe now, that's all that matters. You are safe with me, and sailing home."

 

[Houseofthedirewolves]

10 hours ago, Serafina said:

*passes out*

 

I am not sure it will work though, Littlefinger crossed a line when he kissed Sansa and she seems not able to trust him anymore.

Yes, it's true that Sansa doesn't trust him, but still, she does not resist when he's being inappropriate towards her, she simply endures it. And Littlefinger is going to continue seeing how far he can go (without compromising her maidenhood).

"But there are a lot of dark chapters right now in the book that I’m writing. It is called The Winds of Winter."

"Things get worse before they get better,’ so things are getting worse for a lot of people." - GRRM

So, no, Sansa is not going to have the upper hand over Littlefinger. She doesn't trust him, but he still has the control and power.

 She is not going to be rescued under some elaborate plan. Because situations are getting darker and worsening for our POV characters.

She's going to endure more darkness before she finally is able to escape from her situation in 'A Dream of Spring'.

[Corvo the Crow]

 

Quote

 

The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. She found twigs and fallen branches beneath the snow and broke off the ends to make the trees for the godswood. For the gravestones in the lichyard she used bits of bark. Soon her gloves and her boots were crusty white, her hands were tingling, and her feet were soaked and cold, but she did not care. The castle was all that mattered. Some things were hard to remember, but most came back to her easily, as if she had been there only yesterday. The Library Tower, with the steep stonework stair twisting about its exterior. The gatehouse, two huge bulwarks, the arched gate between them, crenellations all along the top . . .

And all the while the snow kept falling, piling up in drifts around her buildings as fast as she raised them. She was patting down the pitched roof of the Great Hall when she heard a voice, and looked up to see her maid calling from her window. Was my lady well? Did she wish to break her fast? Sansa shook her head, and went back to shaping snow, adding a chimney to one end of the Great Hall, where the hearth would stand inside.

Dawn stole into her garden like a thief. The grey of the sky grew lighter still, and the trees and shrubs turned a dark green beneath their stoles of snow. A few servants came out and watched her for a time, but she paid them no mind and they soon went back inside where it was warmer. Sansa saw Lady Lysa gazing down from her balcony, wrapped up in a blue velvet robe trimmed with fox fur, but when she looked again her aunt was gone. Maester Colemon popped out of the rookery and peered down for a while, skinny and shivering but curious.

Her bridges kept falling down. There was a covered bridge between the armory and the main keep, and another that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower to the second floor of the rookery, but no matter how carefully she shaped them, they would not hold together. The third time one collapsed on her, she cursed aloud and sat back in helpless frustration.

"Pack the snow around a stick, Sansa."

She did not know how long he had been watching her, or when he had returned from the Vale. "A stick?" she asked.

"That will give it strength enough to stand, I'd think," Petyr said. "May I come into your castle, my lady?"

Sansa was wary. "Don't break it. Be . . ."

". . . gentle?" He smiled. "Winterfell has withstood fiercer enemies than me. It is Winterfell, is it not?"

"Yes," Sansa admitted.

 

ASOS Sansa VII

 

Sansa makes Winterfell(home) with snow. Do we have a Snow that would like to make home? Perhaps one who happens to like red hair? 

[JoJoLadyDayne]

Ned to Sansa - AGOT

"This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”

Jon ASOS

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out............

But there's no foreshadowing in the books - right?