Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
The Grey Wolf

Inconsistencies, plot holes, and missing details in TSOTD, TRP, and TPATQ

Recommended Posts

The point is still that Maegor's blood would have long dried on the spikes of the Iron Throne before said messenger even arrived at Oldtown if he had to travel all the way from KL. Storm's End is a lot closer to KL, and Jaehaerys had already proclaimed himself, causing Rhaena to flee KL with Aerea.

The time passing thereafter until Maegor's death seems to be little more than the usual fortnight. The lords of the Crownlands assemble in KL and then they realize that they are the only people answering Maegor's summons. That shouldn't have taken two months. In two months the Stormlanders could have taken possession of KL multiple times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't know that, but I pointed that whole thing out as mistake early on. A way to rectify it would to make it a letter by raven. Or, if one has to keep the messenger part, make it a messenger riding to Oldtown from some nearby castle after a dude there received a raven from the king.

That has nothing to do with the problem at hand. Five months supposedly passed between Rhaenyra's flight from KL and her death on Dragonstone. With Alicent's sons apparently dead, the Green cause was essentially dead, too, until Aegon II revealed that he was still alive. Which was only realized on Dragonstone shortly before Rhaenyra's arrival there and publicly revealed only after Rhaenyra's death, as you correctly point out.

Borros Baratheon and any other Green loyalists would have had no pretender in whose name he could fight in the meantime. And thus it is very unlikely that they did fight or do anything in the name of Aegon II.

Borros had Queen Jaehaera. Did or did not Borros go on to crown her before getting news that her father lived?

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, one assumes the belief that Aegon II, Aemond, and Daeron were all dead was part of the reason why Unwin Peake couldn't get the army in Tumbleton moving after Second Tumbleton. Why should they fight for dead people?

No, we have Rhaenyra being outside the capital for nearly exactly five months before she arrived on Dragonstone and was killed there if we go by the text @The Grey Wolf gave us above. 

We are not here to invent scenarios how things might work (that's for other threads). We point out errors and inconsistencies here in an attempt to motivate the people in charge to make the text of 'Fire and Blood' better.

Errors and inconsistencies depend on whether there are scenarios we missed on first glance.

 

About that dating: the 5 months depends on single date, that of battle of God´s Eye.

Whereas the duration from Rhaenyra´s escape to end of Trystane´s rule is given expressly as 2 weeks and separately implicitly as within Moon of Three Kings.

Which means the 5 month problem might most parsimoniously be fixed by correcting the date for the battle of God´s Eye. Any alternatives?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Jaak said:

Borros had Queen Jaehaera. Did or did not Borros go on to crown her before getting news that her father lived?

Not as far as we know. And one would assume we would know it, if he had done something like that. In fact, considering the whole Green agenda it is exceedingly unlikely that any of Aegon's supporters would have crowned or fought in the name of a queen.

Aegon II and Alicent may have preferred Jaehaera over Rhaenyra's brood but other people may have had other priorities, including Borros Baratheon.

Besides, we don't actually have confirmation that Jaehaera ever reached Storm's End. It is pretty likely that she did, but we don't know that yet. She and Fell could have been stuck in some village in the Kingswood, say. Or some minor castle. We don't know.

6 hours ago, Jaak said:

Which means the 5 month problem might most parsimoniously be fixed by correcting the date for the battle of God´s Eye. Any alternatives?

I'm technically in agreement there, but we don't know what exactly is wrong there. If one thinks about Rhaenyra's epithet, 'the Half-Year Queen', it doesn't make a lot of sense that she would essentially have left KL in the fifth moon of 130 AC. After all, Jace's original date for the attack on KL was the first full moon of 130 AC, but it seems as if the Battle of the Gullet and its aftermath (the Battle of the Honeywine, a fortnight later) postponed the attack on KL for some time. One assumes that Rhaenyra only sat the Iron Throne in the second month of 130 AC.

That would make her the Quarter-Year Queen, not the Half-Year Queen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm technically in agreement there, but we don't know what exactly is wrong there. If one thinks about Rhaenyra's epithet, 'the Half-Year Queen', it doesn't make a lot of sense that she would essentially have left KL in the fifth moon of 130 AC. After all, Jace's original date for the attack on KL was the first full moon of 130 AC, but it seems as if the Battle of the Gullet and its aftermath (the Battle of the Honeywine, a fortnight later) postponed the attack on KL for some time. One assumes that Rhaenyra only sat the Iron Throne in the second month of 130 AC.

That would make her the Quarter-Year Queen, not the Half-Year Queen.

Given how devastating Battle of Gullet was, it could make sense if the attack was postponed a bit more. Counting back from Rhaenyra´s fall in mid-October, April would make perfect sense for her accession. And then placing the deaths of Daemon and Aemond in late September, perhaps early October.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Given how devastating Battle of Gullet was, it could make sense if the attack was postponed a bit more. Counting back from Rhaenyra´s fall in mid-October, April would make perfect sense for her accession. And then placing the deaths of Daemon and Aemond in late September, perhaps early October.

7-8 months would still make her somewhat of a Half-Year Queen, especially if we include her journey to Dragonstone in those months. But being more than one month below six months would make the epithet far too generous.

I see little reason to actually change the date for the Battle Above the Gods Eye. It could have taken very long for this tale to spread. Only Alys Rivers really knew what had transpired there - and all she could say is that Caraxes and Vhagar were both dead. The peasants may have seen some dragons and their fires, hearing the noise and the commotion, but that doesn't really tell people what actually happened. Considering we are talking about the middle of a devastating war here, with the Riverlands in complete disarray, and many of the remaining forces of the Riverlords on their way to Tumbleton at that point, it would be hardly surprising if the news about what actually transpired at the Gods Eye reached KL only weeks and months later.

It may perhaps be wise to move the date of the Aemond-Daemon-duel 1-2 months into the future, but not necessarily much farther.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I see little reason to actually change the date for the Battle Above the Gods Eye. It could have taken very long for this tale to spread. Only Alys Rivers really knew what had transpired there - and all she could say is that Caraxes and Vhagar were both dead. The peasants may have seen some dragons and their fires, hearing the noise and the commotion, but that doesn't really tell people what actually happened. Considering we are talking about the middle of a devastating war here, with the Riverlands in complete disarray, and many of the remaining forces of the Riverlords on their way to Tumbleton at that point, it would be hardly surprising if the news about what actually transpired at the Gods Eye reached KL only weeks and months later.

It may perhaps be wise to move the date of the Aemond-Daemon-duel 1-2 months into the future, but not necessarily much farther.

My understanding is that it was a part of the collapse of Maegor with Teats rule. The order to arrest Daemon and Nettles came after (because because of) the treachery of Two Betrayers, which also set in motion other problems at Tumbleton and at King´s Landing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which edition are you using? 4th print has him flung out the Moon Door, at least. (ETA: 1st print had this as well... hrm. Are you sure that your copy of the WB says otherwise?)


ETA: Oh, I see. Got Jonos and Ronnel switched around in my head.. I'm not sure how that got compressed like that. Earliest draft of the section had it right, but we and Anne went through it a few more times so someone must have tightened it too much. Given how tight the text is on that page, I don't think this can be fixed in TWoIaF, so we'll put this down as a genuine error on Yandel's part.

Edited by Ran

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Ran said:

ETA: Oh, I see. Got Jonos and Ronnel switched around in my head.. I'm not sure how that got compressed like that. Earliest draft of the section had it right, but we and Anne went through it a few more times so someone must have tightened it too much. Given how tight the text is on that page, I don't think this can be fixed in TWoIaF, so we'll put this down as a genuine error on Yandel's part.

Alright, thanks for clarification. Could you also clarify if the Eyrie's garrison seized the pretender and delivered him to Lord Royce, opening the Moon Door once again means that Jonos was killed by his own men or by Lord Royce?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The former. They turned on Jonos, killed him, surrendered... and then were killed to a man at Maegor's order.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Ran said:

The former. They turned on Jonos, killed him, surrendered... and then were killed to a man at Maegor's order.

That is how I interpreted that, too. Lord Royce is down in the Vale. Balerion shows up in the sky above the Eyrie. The garrison panic, seize Jonos and his inner circle, and deliver him to Royce by way of the Moon Door.

Speaking about that - Ran, do you know what happened to Ronnel's wife, the daughter of Torrhen Stark? The sidebar on her marriage to Ronnel could imply that she and her children by Ronnel - assuming they had any - might have met the same end as Ronnel himself. It refers to Ronnel as 'the young and ill-fated Lord of the Vale'.

In any case, Jonos the Kinslayer couldn't really hope to rule the Vale if any children or grandchildren of Ronnel's were still running around in the Vale, could he?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

42. How did Visenya go from being fit enough to ride Vhagar to "thin and haggard" in the span of a year?

I guess that would have been because she caught a sickness in old age that eventually killed her. I mean, old people eventually die, and there are cases where they are very fit and able to a certain point - and then things happen very fast.

8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

43. The castles burned by Visenya are said to be in the Reach but are actually all in the Riverlands.

Yeah, I think I already mentioned that somewhere. But I think there is actually something more to this than just a mistake. Once the text is correctly stating that Maegor took care of the rebel castles in the West while Visenya burned those in the Riverlands, we are missing their punishment of the rebellious lords in the Reach - where there should be at least as many such rebels as in those regions, perhaps even more. The Osgreys prominently among them.

There should be added at least a sentence to cover this fact. And then there is the problem of the gap between the mere dragon attacks and Maegor/Visenya finally arriving at Oldtown. They couldn't have gone there only with their dragons. They must have taken an army with them (possibly one raised for them by the Tyrells). If they didn't do that then Maegor and Visenya would have been utter fools because neither Balerion nor Vhagar would protect them after they actually landed in the city of Oldtown, entering the Starry Sept, the Hightower, or wherever else they went during their stays.

If the Hightowers had merely faked siding with the Targaryens, using the raised three-headed dragon banners as a means to lure them into a trap like the Red Wedding, then Visenya and Maegor Targaryen would have died in Oldtown.

And I really don't think it makes sense that these two were as stupid as that. If they had 10,000 or 20,000 men outside the walls it would be guaranteed that they would not be betrayed in this manner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

42. The text needs to make that clear is what I mean. Visenya getting sick (or poisoned) late in 43 AC would make her physical deterioration much more plausible.

43. I agree.

TSOTD really is a mess.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

42. The text needs to make that clear is what I mean. Visenya getting sick (or poisoned) late in 43 AC would make her physical deterioration much more plausible.

The text could make that clear. But it doesn't have to. There is no need for the author to explain this whole thing if the sources don't really know that Visenya was sick. It might that Gyldayn has that simply from some people commenting on her looks when they went to Dragonstone to see her.

Not to mention that it could also be simply stress and pressure catching up with her. She might not have been all that happy how Maegor's reign was turning out, and how her own legacy and the legacy of her brother and sister were actually endangered by him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

Without speculation/an explanation of some sort it just comes off as too sudden IMHO. Just compare Visenya's physical deterioration to that of Aenys.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People go from robust and healthy looking to frail and thin and haggard in far less than a single year all of the time in real life, for any number of reasons - stress, illness, general ailments of age, life finally catching up with them (and it’s not like Visenya led an easy life!) There are many errors, editing issues or inconsistencies in the text but I don’t see this as one of them. It’s something that doesn’t necessarily require explanation, so it doesn’t get one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Without speculation/an explanation of some sort it just comes off as too sudden IMHO. Just compare Visenya's physical deterioration to that of Aenys.

@HelenaExMachina already explained that one pretty well - and again: Aenys was thirty-five when he died, Visenya 74-75. There is nothing mysterious about her death. Even if she had been poisoned, nobody - neither a contemporary nor a later historian - would suspect that this was the case. And that's why it doesn't make any sense that Gyldayn should claim or speculate that she was.

When people are successfully poisoned then nobody actually suspects that this is the case.

And that's why I actually prefer George's view on the matter of Aenys' death. The man became sick, slowly recovered, and then collapsed again and died. That is all people know. Stuff like that happens all the time, especially in this world. People can speculate about poison, etc. but speculation isn't fact. And as the facts stand, George himself didn't want it to present as fact that Aenys was poisoned.

If we look at Aenys' wife and children it seems that Visenya was the one who protected them from Maegor while she lived (aside from Aegon, who brought his end upon himself with his failed campaign). If that's somewhat correct, then she might also not have been willing to kill Aenys. And in the end - the man is described as sickly. Nobody suggests that the sickly Jaehaerys II had been poisoned, either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×