The Dayne Heir(ess)- Daenerys

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned remembering the brother who impregnated the girl he fell in love with fondly has no plausability.

True, but this is a fantasy with a novel and even though it is confirmed that R+L=J, Ned never thought of his sister as his son's mother, ever, to keep the mystery alive for the readers 

[Faera]

On 23/10/2017 at 7:33 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Brandon the wild wolf having sex with an impregnating Ashara at least has some plausibility. He was willing to take a highborn ladies maidenhead without consideration to them or their future husband. Dany not being a targ or not being Rhaella's is a type of foolishness that can only come about when the an incomplete story is read over and over again in the hopes of finding something new

I pretty much agree with all of this. The scattered allusions to a connection between Ned and Ashara I always penned to be a red herring for Jon's mother, and that there would likely be something else revealed. Then, in ADWD, we got Selmy not directly thinking of Ned as the "Stark" who dishonoured Ashara left the window open for the other Stark brother to be been the dirty rogue. Together with the information, Barbrey Dustin provided about her affair with Brandon Stark and his already established wild nature from book 1... I'd say it is quite fair to argue that it was Brandon, not Ned, who slept with Ashara Dayne and that it was Brandon, not Ned, who fathered her stillborn daughter.

While I'm all for there being a secret in Daenerys's past that is yet to be uncovered, I don't think it has anything to do with her paternity or a baby-swap of any sort.
 

11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned remembering the brother who impregnated the girl he fell in love with fondly has no plausability.

Does Ned remember Brandon with any particular fondness? I don't recall anything standing out to me in AGOT.

I guess it could argue the fact one of his kids is called Bran is something of a homage but... it's the Starks. It almost feels like a rule that you have to have at least one kid in any generation with that name. Regardless, he thinks about Brandon a darn sight more than he does Ashara.

[maudisdottir]

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned remembering the brother who impregnated the girl he fell in love with fondly has no plausability.

Ned remembering "the girl he fell in love with" might actually persuade me that he, you know, fell in love with Ashara. Because Ned never once mentions or even thinks about this girl who supposedly caused him so much angst. We hear about their alleged connection from other people (as rumour or gossip) yet never from Ned. He thinks about Lyanna a lot, and sometimes his dead brother, but never "the girl he fell in love with".

Which leads me to conclude - he never fell in love with her. He might have had a crush, but it certainly didn't cast any shadow over his life in later years, the way his sister's death did.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/23/2017 at 11:33 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Brandon the wild wolf having sex with an impregnating Ashara at least has some plausibility. He was willing to take a highborn ladies maidenhead without consideration to them or their future husband. Dany not being a targ or not being Rhaella's is a type of foolishness that can only come about when the an incomplete story is read over and over again in the hopes of finding something new

Some, but it would lead to nothing. As Brandon died early 282, like in the first quarter. There is no way any one in the story is his child.

If you say Allyria im just gonna laugh and laugh and laugh cause she's so irrelevant and such a late addition, itd make no sense. Never mind the fact that she is Ashara's sister and Edric's aunt. Talk about making things up.

So conclusion, Brandon and Ashara never hooked up, no matter if there is a 5% chance based on textual evidence you bring up.

Who ever said she wasn't a Targ?

Foolishness? After that bit about Brandon? Ok.

And this makes you right? Please.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/23/2017 at 11:57 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Is this the quote you refer to?

Why do you believe that these are the same petals as the Harrenhal wreath?

And does the dead and black refer to the rose petals, or her palms...

Really? It refers to the rose pedals, the thing spilling from her palms.

And why wouldn't they be the same rose pedals??? He literally set it up. It would make no sense for them not to be.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/23/2017 at 6:00 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL NO! I don't accept R+L=J . R+L=D, B+A=J!!  

Brandon "dishonored" Ashara at the tourney by having sex with her but did not get her pregnant at HH. Later Brandon got her pregnant and was subsequently killed by Aerys. A clearly Targ-looking baby "Dany" is born at the ToJ and Ned swaps her for Jon for her protection. Then Ashara swaps "Dany" with the real Dany to attach a useful royal name to this prophecy-fulfilling baby, because the Daynes are aware of all this PtwP prophecy shit. Ashara fakes her own death and they claim her child was stillborn. And "Dany", the child of Rhaegar, looks like Ashara because she is directly descended from Dyanna Dayne.

If Jon ends up having a dragon connection, his "dragon blood", like Rhaegar's and Dany's, would come from House Dayne, a family that may be connected to dragons themselves.

I know that pot is cracked in many places, but that's what I think!  

Really? Again, Brandon died in 282 in the first 3 months a few days before he was to wed Cat. It still is not possible. Brandon isn't a part of the picture period other than dying. 

I can respect that

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/23/2017 at 6:23 PM, SecretWeapon said:

@OP your idea is bad and you should feel bad for it, although you're lowkey cute.

Lol well ok haha and where do youuuuuu sit?  and never haha and thank you  Still doesn't help my debate though huh?

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/24/2017 at 4:24 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned remembering the brother who impregnated the girl he fell in love with fondly has no plausability.

Yea, Ive neverrrr been able to wrap my head around it. Ever. Ned hooked up with Ashara, period. Ive never questioned that part, just the murky details that followed Harrenhal.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Really? It refers to the rose pedals, the thing spilling from her palms.

And why wouldn't they be the same rose pedals??? He literally set it up. It would make no sense for them not to be.

I just find the idea of a pregnant, zombie Lyanna entertaining.

Almost as entertaining as poor Lyanna holding on to a dead wreath of flowers for a year and a half.  Prince Charming couldn’t spring for a fresh bouquet every once in a while?  Likely the roses she she was clutching were a revolving set of flowers brought into the room to cover up the smell of her impending death within the room, it seems like that was a thing to do back in the day.

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Some, but it would lead to nothing. As Brandon died early 282, like in the first quarter. There is no way any one in the story is his child.

Exactly. Being a father of a character in the book is impossible 

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If you say Allyria im just gonna laugh and laugh and laugh cause she's so irrelevant and such a late addition, itd make no sense. Never mind the fact that she is Ashara's sister and Edric's aunt. Talk about making things up.

who said this? I have never heard of it before 

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So conclusion, Brandon and Ashara never hooked up, no matter if there is a 5% chance based on textual evidence you bring up.

I wouldn't say never, but I would say extremely unlikely, like, less than 5%

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Who ever said she wasn't a Targ?

you did

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Foolishness? After that bit about Brandon? Ok.

the brandon bit is at least plausible. Dany being a Dayne? not a chance 

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And this makes you right? Please.

You don't need to ask for permission, and I never said anything in this thread is right, because it is all foolish. Like really foolish. But hey, that is what happens with more than half a decade between books  

[Corvo the Crow]

20 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Ned remembering "the girl he fell in love with" might actually persuade me that he, you know, fell in love with Ashara. Because Ned never once mentions or even thinks about this girl who supposedly caused him so much angst. We hear about their alleged connection from other people (as rumour or gossip) yet never from Ned. He thinks about Lyanna a lot, and sometimes his dead brother, but never "the girl he fell in love with".

Which leads me to conclude - he never fell in love with her. He might have had a crush, but it certainly didn't cast any shadow over his life in later years, the way his sister's death did.

Ned doesn't think that much of Rhaegar or many other persons either, Rickard Stark included.

Here's a Ned memory, which I think is especially good at shedding some light on Ned's mind.

Quote

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

He just doesn't remember, not the woman he loved (or had a crush) but his feelings toward her. Not unlike in the quote below but in a more natural way.

Quote

"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?"

 

Only dead person he thinks much about is Lyanna and that's possibly because of Jon.

[Corvo the Crow]

20 hours ago, Faera said:

I pretty much agree with all of this. The scattered allusions to a connection between Ned and Ashara I always penned to be a red herring for Jon's mother, and that there would likely be something else revealed. Then, in ADWD, we got Selmy not directly thinking of Ned as the "Stark" who dishonoured Ashara left the window open for the other Stark brother to be been the dirty rogue. Together with the information, Barbrey Dustin provided about her affair with Brandon Stark and his already established wild nature from book 1... I'd say it is quite fair to argue that it was Brandon, not Ned, who slept with Ashara Dayne and that it was Brandon, not Ned, who fathered her stillborn daughter.

While I'm all for there being a secret in Daenerys's past that is yet to be uncovered, I don't think it has anything to do with her paternity or a baby-swap of any sort.
 

Does Ned remember Brandon with any particular fondness? I don't recall anything standing out to me in AGOT.

I guess it could argue the fact one of his kids is called Bran is something of a homage but... it's the Starks. It almost feels like a rule that you have to have at least one kid in any generation with that name. Regardless, he thinks about Brandon a darn sight more than he does Ashara.

Two came to mind

Quote

"Needle wouldn't break," Arya said defiantly, but her voice betrayed her words.

"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

 

Quote

They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

 

Also irrelevant but, wasn't Rickard burned? Is Brandon the Broken also the Brandon the Unreliable Narrator or is it  just a mistake?

[Tygett Lannister]

Lemon trees don't grow in Bravos though

[Corvo the Crow]

33 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Lemon trees don't grow in Bravos though

 

Quote

"There's no more wood." Dareon had paid the innkeep double for a room with a hearth, but none of them had realized that wood would be so costly here. Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

 

Also bravos don't need trees to grow in them, they already have their swords so high up their arses.

[Tygett Lannister]

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

You can be the richest man alive you won't be able to grow a lemon tree outside in Scotland.

Ever though why there is more Orange trees in Greece than in Scotland or Norway?

[Faera]

Hmm, to me there is a difference between loving your brother because he was your brother, and remember him fondly. I have no doubt he loved Brandon despite what a wildcard. In any case, he still remembers him more and with more fondness than he does Ashara (i.e. at least he does remember his brother).

46 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also irrelevant but, wasn't Rickard burned? Is Brandon the Broken also the Brandon the Unreliable Narrator or is it  just a mistake?

I think there is a line somewhere in either AGoT, or possibly ACoK, where it is implied that Ned never told his family the full details of how Rickard and Brandon were killed by Aerys due to its grisly nature. So, it's possible that Bran was simply told a little white lie on how his grandfather and uncle truly died.

[Corvo the Crow]

19 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

You can be the richest man alive you won't be able to grow a lemon tree outside in Scotland.

Ever though why there is more Orange trees in Greece than in Scotland or Norway?

But is Braavos Scotland? I've always pictured it as Venice.

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But is Braavos Scotland? I've always pictured it as Venice.

Having just taken a trip to Venice I can definitely say that it reminded me of Braavos.  

I think Braavos is GRRM’s version of Venice by way of Leiber’s Lankhmar.

[Tygett Lannister]

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But is Braavos Scotland? I've always pictured it as Venice.

Braavos is North of Iron Islands and Eyrie and about where Moat Cailin is. Yes it should have oceanic climate but so does Scotland (which should have much colder climate if it wasn't for Gulf Stream that heats up UK for 8'C). It is like Venice regarding politics and city structure, but can never have similar climate. Climate should be similar to that of Moat Cailin or White Harbor. Definitely I don't see lemon trees growing there, apple tress sure. Lemons grow in Dorne, and LF says they will send for more lemons for Sansa to eat lemoncakes and Vale is mostly south of Braavos (but it has colder climate due to mountains of course).

[Tygett Lannister]

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Having just taken a trip to Venice I can definitely say that it reminded me of Braavos.  

I think Braavos is GRRM’s version of Venice by way of Leiber’s Lankhmar.

Looks like Venice but climate is different as Braavos is surrounded by ocean from North, West and East and is also much more North. While Venice is deep in the deepest Gulf of Mediterranean sea. Climate is way hotter, I think you can plant rice in Venice. I live like 200 km from Venice and been there. As well as Scotland.