The Dayne Heir(ess)- Daenerys

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's IF Jon is Rhaegar's kid and he may not be.  Dany would make sense if Rhaegar, Elia and Ashara returned to Dragonstone after the tourney of Harrenhal.  Rhaegar thought Aegon was the PwP.  Perhaps he wanted another daughter rather than a son as the third dragon rider.

Jon being any body other than the child from the Tower of Joy is just silly. All the story narration and beats all go that direction. 

F/aegon is exactly that, and no more. The mummer's dragon. Vary's dragon, Aegon. It's pretty clear IMO

[AlaskanSandman]

dawn-valyrian-steel-the-black-white-trees/

Dawns purpose and role i think is misunderstood in accordance to the legend of Azor Ahai, the birth of Dragons, and the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa. 

You could say that Jon will be Nissa Nissa'd as he is a dead fire wight now, but wouldnt serve the narrative purpose of Dany's womb quickening again, and the union of Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany). 

Think Melisandre and Stannis Baratheon and their shadow demon.

Think the Night's King who gave his seed and soul to his Night's King. 

The union and said baby of Jon and Dany is either the thing we want, or the thing we dont want.

As the story doesn't leave enough time for their baby to grow to be the hero who is the union of ice and fire. Its likely, this is the union to prevent.

IMO- said baby is part of the Night's King's plan. Again, think of Craster and all those babies. 

[LynnS]

25 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Since this only covers if you believe Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ill discuss later all the weird ideas still trying to peg Jon as the child of some one else

There are some that are a bit far out and others that are just as probable.  RLJ has been flogged for so long that nobody can be bothered to think for themselves anymore.  It's far easier if someone just tells you the answer or you think some 'expert' has already figured it out for you.  Baloney.    RAD is just as likely as RLJ and it's lot more interesting.  

What do you suppose Rhaegar knew about the prophecy?  Do you think it's possible that he met with the GoHH at Summerhall, made songs for her in exchange for more information about it?  Why did he decide one day that his son Aegon was the PwP instead of himself? I prefer not to stick with outdated assumptions about Jon or Dany,

Why does everyone think that the identity of the knight of the laughing tree is so important?  What people overlook is the fact that Howland Reed is an agent of the old gods on the Isle of Faces and he pays close attention to two women at the tourney;  Lyanna and Ashara.  We can be almost certain that Lyanna is Jon's mother.  While Barristan Selmy says that Dany could be the daughter of Ashara.

Dany thinks she is heiress to Dragonstone; but she doesn't know that Aegon is still alive.  Dany could be Ashara's daughter except that Barristan thinks Dany is Aerys' daughter.   These things couldn't possibly be true because they don't fit the assumptions for RLJ.  What if the assumptions for RLJ are false.:

- Jon isn't a combination of ice and fire bloodlines so he can ride a dragon

- Jon isn't AA or PwP

- Rhaegar has been told that Aegon is the one who will restore peace, prosperity and justice

- Rhaegar has been told that there must be one more (daughter) to hatch dragon eggs

There is nothing new or outlandish about secret identities or hiding people in this story.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There are some that are a bit far out and others that are just as probable.  RLJ has been flogged for so long that nobody can be bothered to think for themselves anymore.  It's far easier if someone just tells you the answer or you think some 'expert' has already figured it out for you.  Baloney.    RAD is just as likely as RLJ and it's lot more interesting.  

What do you suppose Rhaegar knew about the prophecy?  Do you think it's possible that he met with the GoHH at Summerhall, made songs for her in exchange for more information about it?  Why did he decide one day that his son Aegon was the PwP instead of himself? I prefer not to stick with outdated assumptions about Jon or Dany,

Why does everyone think that the identity of the knight of the laughing tree is so important?  What people overlook is the fact that Howland Reed is an agent of the old gods on the Isle of Faces and he pays close attention to two women at the tourney;  Lyanna and Ashara.  We can be almost certain that Lyanna is Jon's mother.  While Barristan Selmy says that Dany could be the daughter of Ashara.

Dany thinks she is heiress to Dragonstone; but she doesn't know that Aegon is still alive.  Dany could be Ashara's daughter except that Barristan thinks Dany is Aerys' daughter.   These things couldn't possibly be true because they don't fit the assumptions for RLJ.  What if the assumptions for RLJ are false.:

- Jon isn't a combination of ice and fire bloodlines so he can ride a dragon

- Jon isn't AA or PwP

- Rhaegar has been told that Aegon is the one who will restore peace, prosperity and justice

- Rhaegar has been told that there must be one more (daughter) to hatch dragon eggs

There is nothing new or outlandish about secret identities or hiding people in this story.

 

There are definitely a couple theories that hold some weight, but in my mind, they dont propel the story forward given all the other pieces in the story. Jon and Dany IMO are the children of Rhaegar and Ice and Fire. The story archs of theirs and what happens in it must their fore bridge together at some point. Jons been all up in baby sacrifices to the Others and his friend denying them one, and them swapping babies out. Danys is about the dragons sure, but also about her pregnancy, failed birth, hatching the dragons, and womb quickening again. Their stories must also tie to the Nights King and Azor Ahai. Imo.

I think Rhaegar was all up in prophecy. Mind you i think he got it wrong like every one else, but like Mel, he's dedicated a good portion of his life to the belief in it. 

I think it's very likely Rhaegar could have and that would definitely jive with the story beats. 

His belief in Aegon may have been tied to the comet he saw, or tied to his belief apparently later that the dragon must have 3 heads and that their must be 3 children. I honestly think this actually has something to do with Aegon and his sisters, along with something to do with the past. Im still working out the details of the past. Its complicated to show. I do believe though their was some type of GEOTD/Valyrian King whom Serwyn of the Mirror Shield had served as a memeber of his Kings Guard.

Garth is always linked to Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever and Durran as Kings during the Age of Heroes. With other figures being Knights who were dragon slayers. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragon Slayer, Galladon of Morne, Clarence the Crab, Possibly Florian the Fool and Possibly the Winged Knight who fought the Griffin King. Along with House Hightower who put an end to the dragons on Battle Isle. But some where's among these legends pop up some female warrior hero, likened to the other heroes of the Long Night. I think this may be the original trilogy. Some wheres tied into those legends. 

While i think the biggest take away is that Howland caused Rhaegar to meet Lyanna and Eddard to meet Ashara, i to think Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing tree is an important part of her story in how she finally actually met and talked to Rhaegar.

Dany being Ashara's child can and does work with things. Its unknown when Dany was swapped out but may have happened on Dragonstone, or may not have as she has weird memories that some take for Dorne. There is already a possible account for Ashara going to dragonstone also in the differing accounts between Jamie and Viserys. The woman was hooded and Jamie never made visual confirmation, just assumed it was her. This could have been Ashara, whos body was never found. So her death at Star Fall could be a totally fabricated story. Well with in the realms of possibilities.

Except their is plenty evidence for Jon as Lyanna's. More than enough. Lyanna clutching the dead rose pedals from Harrenhal, from a bed of blood and Eddard coming away from the Tower of Joy with a baby who couldn't have come from a union in 281, sorry. Plus Jon is a Stark who is of his blood, of who Eddard loved his mother dearly, and even broke tradition and gave her a tomb. To which she looks like Arya who looks like Jon. And yada yada yada, i find it amazing people still deny this stuff. 

[AlaskanSandman]

52 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

 

The problem with Aegon being alive is Varys and Illyrio, who have no reason to be doing what theyre doing then. Helping Rhaegar's son?? Why? They didn't even help Rhaegar him self, they opposed him by telling Aerys of his plans at Harrenhal to depose his father and bring stability. No, it doesn't add up.

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lyanna clutching the dead rose pedals from Harrenhal,

Baloney...  a dead rose from Harrenhal.  Sorry that makes me laugh.  That's strictly romantic projection by readers and Barristan Selmy.  Ned calls it the Queen of Beauty's laurel, love has nothing to do with it.

Here's another meaning for a crown of roses:

 

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The problem with Aegon being alive is Varys and Illyrio, who have no reason to be doing what theyre doing then. Helping Rhaegar's son?? Why? They didn't even help Rhaegar him self, they opposed him by telling Aerys of his plans at Harrenhal to depose his father and bring stability. No, it doesn't add up.

Tell that to Kevan Lannister.  Varys has always said that what he does; he does for the sake of the children and the realm.  That doesn't mean he won't throw anyone under the bus including Rhaegar and Aerys when they have outlived their purpose.  He helps so long as it helps his own plan.      

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Baloney...  a dead rose from Harrenhal.  Sorry that makes me laugh.  That's strictly romantic projection by readers and Barristan Selmy.  Ned calls it the Queen of Beauty's laurel, love has nothing to do with it.

Here's another meaning for a crown of roses:

 

Yes, Ned recalls her clutching the dead black rose. Eat your baloney. Whether the crowns name has love in the title or not lol

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Tell that to Kevan Lannister.  Varys has always said that what he does; he does for the sake of the children and the realm.  That doesn't mean he won't throw anyone under the bus including Rhaegar and Aerys when they have outlived their purpose.  He helps so long as it helps his own plan.      

Yea, to put a Blackfyre on the crown. Get real. If he simply wanted peace he would have supported Rhaegar. Period.

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Tell that to Kevan Lannister.  Varys has always said that what he does; he does for the sake of the children and the realm.  That doesn't mean he won't throw anyone under the bus including Rhaegar and Aerys when they have outlived their purpose.  He helps so long as it helps his own plan.      

Note that its the "mummer's dragon". This is possessive, and the mummer is Varys. Varys owns this dragon Dany needs to beware of.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

17 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

If Daenerys means "Dayne heiress" then why was the first Daenerys given that name? She had nothing to do with the Daynes and had no Dornish blood.

I think this is meant to bring our attention to this original Daenerys, who brought Dorne into the fold and gave House Martel a bit of the dragons blood. Martin having named her, after our main character. 

So i think he's saying this is why Ashara Dayne (In world) chose to name her Daenerys. Because as the child of Rhaegar, she is a Targaryen, who is also of Dorne. 

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea, to put a Blackfyre on the crown. Get real. If he simply wanted peace he would have supported Rhaegar. Period.

I will get real.  Rhaegar didn't have any power. Whatever he was planning at Harrenhal fell apart.  Varys had to get rid of Aerys and he had Elia hostage to Rhaegar's good behavior.  Rhaegar was collateral damage.

[AlaskanSandman]

21 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I was never big on Daenerys not being who we think she is theories. Dany is the only known 100% for sure real true born Targaryen. If this theory was true she'd be a bastard, I don't see what that would add to the story.

Also what type of person would Arthur Dayne be if all this was true? He stays loyal to Rhaegar while Rhaegar takes his highborn sister as a mistress then takes Lyanna as another one? Was that Oswell Whent's plan as well? Did he organize the tourney at Harrenhal to set up the fair Whent maid to be Rhaegar's next paramour? Where does Rhaegar's mad harem end? 

Lol the mad harem part hahah

Ok. Arthur is aware of whats going on. Arthur likely, as Rhaegar's best friend, put forward his sister as a possible surrogate for this third child Rhaegar sought to full fill a prophecy that House Dayne may well be aware of. Given said Hero is supposed to wield a magic sword and House Dayne just so happen to have a magic sword passed down only to the worthiest. I would bank on Arthur being in on Rhaegars plan. 

Again, see the quote at the end of my OP. In Dorne, it's NOT shameful to have a paramour. Gerris even puts forth Quentyn as a concubine/lover of Dany's since she's already married and Barristan cuts him off and calls it Paramour to "respect her honor". Calling it paramour was the respectful route. 

Whents plan was to help Rhaegar set up the Tourney as a chance to hold his secret council to over throw his father. Likely proving his worth by winning and crowing Ashara. 

But, then Howland and the Old Gods threw a wrench in things. As noted by the quote from Rhaegar to Jamie, which shows Rhaegar went off plan but does no good dwelling on it.

Arthur went with to kidnap Lyanna though and stayed to protect her child. Likely not just due to his Kings Guard bond, as Barristan wasnt a part of it, it was his friend ship and loyalty to Rhaegar's plan that held him there. 

That's my take.

[Dorian Martell's son]

21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Another example of this is Brandon bumped Ashara's lump theories. While Barristan may or may not think it was the wild wolf, he only thinks of the family name, no one else thinks Brandon had any Dornish friendship with Ashara but we get a lot of Ned&Ashara comments from Winterfell folks, then (Catelyn hearing gossip) and now (Harwin telling Arya) Cersei and even Ashara's nephew himself, who shares the nickname with Eddard. If anyone would now the truth about Ashara and Stark, it'd be Neds, one for being in love with Ashara and being the brother of Brandon and the other for being from the same family as Ashara and yet it is there.

Brandon the wild wolf having sex with an impregnating Ashara at least has some plausibility. He was willing to take a highborn ladies maidenhead without consideration to them or their future husband. Dany not being a targ or not being Rhaella's is a type of foolishness that can only come about when the an incomplete story is read over and over again in the hopes of finding something new

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes, Ned recalls her clutching the dead black rose. Eat your baloney. Whether the crowns name has love in the title or not lol

Is this the quote you refer to?

Quote

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

Why do you believe that these are the same petals as the Harrenhal wreath?

And does the dead and black refer to the rose petals, or her palms...

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ill cover every ones responses and i appreciate them but pressed for time atm. So ill cover something i covered in another thread.

This is if you except that R+L=J

This is the only thing that propels the story forward and covers all mysteries. Every other theory falls apart in the end.

Since this only covers if you believe Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ill discuss later all the weird ideas still trying to peg Jon as the child of some one else. It literally just does not add up and not a single person ive talked to on here as presented an actual thought out conclusion to the end game on how their idea would actually play out. Just a lot of tearing apart single facts or ideas, which is expected. I just expect these other ideas to be able to provide something further than just their initial idea that so and so is the child of so and so because thats how i see it. Though you still dont have an idea towards the ending

Jon wielding Dawn and having no dragon connection, while fighting the Others as a typical boring hero figure goes against everyyyyyyything Martin has established. But sure.

LOL NO! I don't accept R+L=J . R+L=D, B+A=J!!  

Brandon "dishonored" Ashara at the tourney by having sex with her but did not get her pregnant at HH. Later Brandon got her pregnant and was subsequently killed by Aerys. A clearly Targ-looking baby "Dany" is born at the ToJ and Ned swaps her for Jon for her protection. Then Ashara swaps "Dany" with the real Dany to attach a useful royal name to this prophecy-fulfilling baby, because the Daynes are aware of all this PtwP prophecy shit. Ashara fakes her own death and they claim her child was stillborn. And "Dany", the child of Rhaegar, looks like Ashara because she is directly descended from Dyanna Dayne.

If Jon ends up having a dragon connection, his "dragon blood", like Rhaegar's and Dany's, would come from House Dayne, a family that may be connected to dragons themselves.

I know that pot is cracked in many places, but that's what I think!  

[SecretWeapon]

@OP your idea is bad and you should feel bad for it, although you're lowkey cute.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

30 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

@OP your idea is bad and you should feel bad for it, although you're lowkey cute.

nice objective analysis, solidly articulated critiques there . and commenting on the cuteness of the OP profile pic is always a classy move, especially when your own pic is of Sophie Turner  

[SecretWeapon]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

nice objective analysis, solidly articulated critiques there

ok

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

and commenting on the cuteness of the OP profile pic is always a classy move, especially when your own pic is of Sophie Turner  

i called him cute. stop derailing

[Corvo the Crow]

17 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Brandon the wild wolf having sex with an impregnating Ashara at least has some plausibility. He was willing to take a highborn ladies maidenhead without consideration to them or their future husband. Dany not being a targ or not being Rhaella's is a type of foolishness that can only come about when the an incomplete story is read over and over again in the hopes of finding something new

Ned remembering the brother who impregnated the girl he fell in love with fondly has no plausability.