Why do people hate Sansa?

[Foot_Of_The_King]

She's doesn't make a very good "first impression" in AGOT. That's the simple (and obliviously flawed) answer. 

[MrJay]

In the beginning :

She would get you killed. She is one of those types. Like friends in horror flicks who open the door for strangers. That's why I hated her. She was so naive and stupid that she would actively get you killed by her just being near you. 

Look. I don't have to like you. Go be useless and that is fine with me. You can even be kinda dumb. Bit Sansa is so bad, so retarded, so unbelievably God awful that she actively aids the villains despite supposedly being a good or at least neutral character. 

Now I like her. That goes to show you. She hasn't done squat except be a pawn for others, and it's such a vast improvement over how stupid she was that I love her now. All she has to do is realize she is jacking things up for her family and friends, find a corner, and sit down. That would have been magnitudes greater level of common sense and intelligence than what she had in book 1.

 

And yes, I get it. She was a child. Yet for some reason her other siblings were no where nears that stupid. That means that Ned and Cat either... 

1. Purposefully raised Sansa to be a retard while teaching their other kids that life isn't a made up fairy tale (seriously even Bran and Arya got those lessons). 

2. Or they did teach Sansa but she was so self centered that she is willing to get her family murdered so she can marry so blonde haired prick and be queen. 

Anyways. I like her now as I said. But I still don't read her chapters because the hate from before still simmers within me. 

[winter daughter]

5 hours ago, zandru said:

Yeah, she'll soak up Baelish's spoon-fed tutorials like a sponge, and if she remains as she has been through the fifth book, she'll rationalize to herself what she did and/or actually change the way she remembers things that happened. Frighteningly like Cersei, but not yet as delusional, and fortunately, not with any great power ... yet.

Baelish doesn't need to spoon-feed her. she is a smart pupil.

As you said it yourself and I repeated after you we don't know whether her arc is admirable or not and how she'll use her skills. so it's too soon to put her in the same category as Cersei.

5 hours ago, zandru said:

So Tywin's assault with the combined Lannister and Tyrell forces, led by the Ghost of Renly, had zero effect? Yeah, sure.

You are right. I should've said:

She also could not have been unaware that Tyrion played a big role in Lannister's victory.

better?

5 hours ago, zandru said:

Don't hang the whole marriage thing on Tyrion, either. If he hadn't consented, Tywin would have named someone else who WOULD have gladly raped a 13 year old, flowered "woman grown" -- as often as needed until she actually started "showing."

I don't hang the whole marriage thing on Tyrion. sure if he hadn't consented, Tywin would have married her to another Lannister.

But it doesn't change the fact that Tyrion did consent to marry her because he wanted beautiful Sansa and Winterfell.

He was well aware that he was not a kind of man Sansa wanted to marry and share a bed with but he accepted Tywin's offer anyway.

5 hours ago, zandru said:

You may have noticed that, after the battle, Tyrion was moving into a very bad place. Sansa just gave him another little kick down the stairs. I refuse to believe she's all that "empathic."

Yes I know Tyrion was messed up but so was Sansa. she taught she was going to marry Willas and flee her prison and her psychopath abuser. but then what happened? She was forced to marry a Lannister (so they could steal her ancestral home) and become part of the family she hated so much.

[Pikachu101]

3 hours ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

She's doesn't make a very good "first impression" in AGOT. That's the simple (and obliviously flawed) answer. 

I think that's where most of Sansa hate stems from, people made up their mind about her in AGoT and won't budge despite her character growth.

2 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Yes I know Tyrion was messed up but so was Sansa. she taught she was going to marry Willas and flee her prison and her psychopath abuser. but then what happened? She was forced to marry a Lannister (so they could steal her ancestral home) and become part of the family she hated so much.

It's actually pretty messed up that we have to explain why there's nothing wrong with Sansa not wanting to marry a Lannister 

[spauldo17]

8 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

You're comparing a 12 year old abused hostage with Ned and Robert during the rebellion (and afterwards) when they were grown men, lords in their own right, and fully trained warriors who could command armies called from the bannermen who owed them allegiance.  When Ned and Robert were 12, they were sparring in the practice yard, riding at rings and having food fights in the hall of their doting foster father. Their 12 yr old life doesn't even begin to compare with Sansa's.

 

I am comparing them because that's the way the conversation went.  I'll recap it for you: I said Sansa is useless and a waste of book space and nobody in the books is as rudderless as her,  someone responded by saying, 'no, look at these people who were manipulated by others' and listed both Ned and Robert, I subsequently responded to said response by saying, 'Ned and Robert both did the following things.'

So I'm not comparing them of my own volition, but that was the circumstance put in front of me.  I can only respond to what's said to me.

That being said, the point of this thread is to discuss why people dislike Sansa relative to other book characters and in that case I think it's perfectly acceptable to compare her to Ned and Robert because they three share the most pertinent characteristic for this discussion:  they are all book characters.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Sansa changes for the better as a loyal member of House Stark the moment they cut off her father's head. She is a survivor but she is no family traitor.

Some people tend to dislike her for not being a submissive to Tyrion but then again, why would she?

 

 

[Lion of the West]

20 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

Generally in a discussion such as this it's culturally accepted to respond to someone's actual point, or opinion.  Not just a fragment of their point. 

I agree entirely. I feel fully confident that both you or I could do so and not suffer any sanctions from our surrounding.

20 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

My point is, in one sentence, "Nobody in the books allows themselves to be manipulated constantly and repetitively, wallow in their own self misery, without making any proactive actions like Sansa."  I've bolded an important point for you because you chose to respond to one sentence out of my post, which makes no sense.

I responded to the part which I would object to. If you raise three points and I object to one of them, it don't make much sense to object to the points I don't really object to just for the sake of it, now does it?

And I dare say that you are wrong in this for Theon wallows in self-pity and is manipulated left and right all the time. So there you have at least one male character who does pretty much the same. And its really a lie that Sansa makes no proactive actions. For example she meets with Dontos to arrange for her escape and she takes action to attempt to protect people from Joffrey.

20 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

Now moving on to the actual content of your post. I think you're confusing what Sansa is with simply being manipulated. Every character in the book has been manipulated at some point.  What I'm saying is that the other characters, specifically the ones you mention, all are players making positive action.  Every single one of them took their fate in their own hands, and strove to improve their situations.  Whereas Sansa simply muddles through her life, feeling sorry for herself rather than taking steps to change.

Which is actually a straight up lie. Sansa takes many positive actions such as saving Dontos, warning Margaerys about Joffrey and more, which has already been mentioned by another poster above, yet for some reason these actions does not count.

20 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

Again i'll reiterate with Ned Stark, the guy was a major player.  He uncovered the fact about the Lannister children being products of incest.  He also was hand to the king and one of the top warriors that helped overthrow a kingdom.  Those are big moves no matter how you slice it.  The fact that he was eventually outwitted doesn't mitigate his overall impact on the story.

On to Robert, as I've already said he was the leader of a rebellion and a renowned warrior.  Eventually sitting on his laurels got him killed by a scheming wife.  Same with Ned, this doesn't change the fact that he was an important and influential character, he was simply killed.

You can say Renly was simply a puppet but that remains to be proven.  The fact of the matter is that he made a play for the throne.  That's a big move no matter how you look at it.

Stannis is the same scenario.  He attempted to overthrow the Lannisters and become king.

All of these examples are beside the point. I don't care how big a warrior Robert was because he was played like a fiddle by numerous persons. The discussion for me isn't about who did most but if Sansa is standing out for being manipulated, which I think that she isn't standing out for, and to a lesser degree why Sansa's actions are not counted in her favor but othe characters' actions are counted in their favor.

20 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

To recap, you're simply confusing the point.  I never said these people never got manipulated, I said these people were all major players.  My biggest source of dislike for Sansa is that she doesn't do anything proactive.  She doesn't make any big moves or try and change anything.  Being manipulated doesn't make you an inert character, it simply means that you risked a lot.  One may argue that the bigger the player you are and the more you try to do the greater the risk is that someone will manipulate you.

And at least one other poster has already proven you wrong on that Sansa isn't proactive. She is very proactive and the reason as to why she don't make big moves is the same for why Theon don't drive off the Bolton army when he is Reek. Neither of them are in a position to do these kind of things. You're comparing the King of Westeros or Lord of Winterfell with an adolscent hostage in the hands of her enemies. Totally different situations and totally different resources at their command, not to mention that the king and lord would have their freedom to act while Sansa knows that at a word Cersei can restrict what little freedom that Sansa has.

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Except that Sansa didn't lose her genitals to Joffrey, who doesn't do a scrap of physical abuse himself.

Its irrelevant who does the physical abuse because Sansa is subjected to physical abuse at the orders of Joffrey. Any hairsplitting as to who actually brings the physical blows is really irrelevant. We know who wants it done and orders it. Its pretty clear who the main culprit is.

19 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Man if only you had bothered to read on

So many if. Its like real history with many "what if" scenarios around almost every turn on the road.

[LaurieMarlow]

8 hours ago, MrJay said:

And yes, I get it. She was a child. Yet for some reason her other siblings were no where nears that stupid. That means that Ned and Cat either... 

1. Purposefully raised Sansa to be a retard while teaching their other kids that life isn't a made up fairy tale (seriously even Bran and Arya got those lessons). 

2. Or they did teach Sansa but she was so self centered that she is willing to get her family murdered so she can marry so blonde haired prick and be queen. 

Anyways. I like her now as I said. But I still don't read her chapters because the hate from before still simmers within me. 

On 10/22/2017 at 11:15 PM, manchester_babe said:

 

There's a lot you're not getting here.  They raised Sansa as a high born girl.  Yes, that is different to how they raised their boy children.  They raised her to be pliant, charming, pleasing, to marry well, to prioritize her looks and her accomplishments, to ultimately submit to male authority in the form of her husband, to attract and be taken care of by (hopefully) a solid, caring nobleman. 

Now, they will have tried to raise Arya the same, but she (thus far) rebelled against it.  And don't forget she's very young when GOT opens. 

The Starks did not foresee the treacherous world Sansa would be exposed to.  They didn't equip her with the skills.  That's obvious in the first few chapters of GOT where the boys are out riding and shooting and Sansa's perfecting her needlework.  Now, you can argue that they should have, that Ned at least should have known that court is full of vipers, but that's his naivety, not hers.

Sansa was being prepared for a peaceful world.  She was being groomed to be a great trophy wife.  If this peaceful world had come to pass, she had far more skills to succeed in the role expected from her than Arya.  But fate took a very different turn.   

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 hours ago, winter daughter said:

AGOT Sansa? sure.

She tried to save a drunk, useless, stranger.

Almost as an afterthought, and at no risk to herself.

15 hours ago, winter daughter said:

She stopped Jofrrey from riding down an innocent commoner before the riot of KL.

She warned Margaery twice about Joffrey's true nature although she knew it was a dangerous thing to do.

She was worried about Sandor after his confession and tried to soothe him.

these examples are enough to disprove your claim.

Really?

Again, the best things she's done is feel bad... I'm not saying it's fair, but I don't give her points for pity. 

15 hours ago, winter daughter said:

And could you please give me some examples of her terrible treatment of her servants and companions in the ACOK, ASOS and AFFK?

She is actively participating in poisoning her own cousin... and plans to marry his heir to usurp his seat.

15 hours ago, winter daughter said:

And about Tyrion. why do you think she treated him terribly? because she did not kneel for him in her forced wedding? he agreed to marry a helpless 12 year old for her claim. he did not deserve her respect. or maybe not sleeping with him and not befriending him were terribly wrong?

Let us be clear, she didn't despise Tyrion because he was a Lannister (wrong in its own way) she hated him because he was an ugly dwarf... she had no problem with the idea of marrying Jeof. Also, let's stop pretending that any of these characters get to choose their spouse, or that the treatment of women in general is anything but aweful... but marriage for love is the exception and not the rule, and besides that, it usually ends up in tears anyway. S

15 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Sure. as I said before AGOT Sansa was a selfish child. but you are judging her only based on the first book. she has changed since her father's execution.

I don't think she has activly done anything to change my opinion of her. She appears slightly more thoughtful, possibly more realistic, but still morally bankrupt.

15 hours ago, winter daughter said:

acknowledging and regretting her mistake, setting aside all her dreams of becoming queen, Saving a helpless person, hugging lowborn Lothor Brune and believing Alayne is stronger than Sansa because she is bastard are not considered improvements?

No, a sympathy hug and admiration for a bastard do not make up for betraying your family, selfish absorbsion in her own wellbeing, and pitifulness... let alone conspiring to kill your own child cousin.

But honestly, she isn't being judged in a vacuum, and compared to other characters she has gone through far less and behaved far worse. Still I'm not sure I could name a person or ideal she would actively stand up for at her own peril. 

[zandru]

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

As I was reading your posts above, I just kept thinking

Well, every one of your "thoughts" about me is total nonsense, and I'm sort of bewildered by where you're coming from. I suspect you're just "retconning" yourself here, but each to their own.

9 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

She does feel empathy for him which is why she ultimately kneels despite the awfulness of the situation for her.

No, Sansa NEVER kneels to help Tyrion put the "threadbare" (aka heirloom) Lannister cloak on her. He ends up having to climb onto the back of Ser Dontos, Sansa's fool, who gets down behind her on all fours. Sansa's sympathies are almost entirely with Sansa; shows of actual empathy are rare as frog's teeth with her. Since we're inside her head, we KNOW.

There seems to be some reluctance by many to accept the question of this whole thread "Why do people hate Sansa?" There have been a lot of enlightening answers which deal with her actions, both in the beginning of the series and onward, and just how people feel. But the insistence by others of y'all that NOBODY ought to hate Sansa, ever, is to my mind out of place.

[Universal Sword Donor]

22 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, every one of your "thoughts" about me is total nonsense, and I'm sort of bewildered by where you're coming from. I suspect you're just "retconning" yourself here, but each to their own.

No, Sansa NEVER kneels to help Tyrion put the "threadbare" (aka heirloom) Lannister cloak on her. He ends up having to climb onto the back of Ser Dontos, Sansa's fool, who gets down behind her on all fours. Sansa's sympathies are almost entirely with Sansa; shows of actual empathy are rare as frog's teeth with her. Since we're inside her head, we KNOW.

There seems to be some reluctance by many to accept the question of this whole thread "Why do people hate Sansa?" There have been a lot of enlightening answers which deal with her actions, both in the beginning of the series and onward, and just how people feel. But the insistence by others of y'all that NOBODY ought to hate Sansa, ever, is to my mind out of place.

YOU CANT SHAME US. WE ARE SANSA BOTS

[winter daughter]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Almost as an afterthought, and at no risk to herself.

She tried to save Dantos twice. she couldn't let Joffrey kill him even after he threatened her for her first attempt. and yes she risked getting punished(beaten) to save him.

8 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Really?

Again, the best things she's done is feel bad... I'm not saying it's fair, but I don't give her points for pity. 

the best things she has done were saving two helpless people from Joffrey.

it seems like saving people is not that important to you.

10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She is actively participating in poisoning her own cousin... and plans to marry his heir to usurp his seat.

Please prove this with some textual evidence. if she is actively killing him slowly she should think about it from time to time. right?

and what do you think of these quots from her AWOW sample chapter.

Spoiler

 

He does have pretty hair. If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him.

and

Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

 

So why she hopes he grows old and wed if she is killing him?

Why she wants him to be safe if she is actively poisoning him?

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Let us be clear, she didn't despise Tyrion because he was a Lannister (wrong in its own way) she hated him because he was an ugly dwarf... she had no problem with the idea of marrying Jeof. Also, let's stop pretending that any of these characters get to choose their spouse, or that the treatment of women in general is anything but aweful... but marriage for love is the exception and not the rule, and besides that, it usually ends up in tears anyway. S

about Jeof.. yes in the first book she wanted to marry a handsome prince. and in that time Starks and Lannister were not at war.

but in the second book she burned down her mattress and wardrobe at the thought of marrying him.

 

She didn't despise Tyrion she just didn't trust him because he was a Lannister(and that's why she never opened up to him) and she didn't want to have sex with him because as you said he was an ugly dwarf.(without a nose)

Has Tyrion himself ever shown any desire for an ugly woman? or a dwarf?

And he had a choice. he chose to marry Sansa because she was beautiful and heir to Winterfell.

45 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

No, a sympathy hug and admiration for a bastard do not make up for betraying your family, selfish absorbsion in her own wellbeing, and pitifulness... let alone conspiring to kill your own child cousin.

Of course these things do not make up for turning her back on her family. when did I say that?

You claimed she has had no development since the beginning. but hugging lowborn Lothor and being proud of her bastard persona are developments. she used to look down on bastards and lowborns. she doesn't look down on them anymore. so clearly she has changed.

And about SR ...as I said before you have to prove your claim with some textual evidences.

1 hour ago, zandru said:

No, Sansa NEVER kneels to help Tyrion put the "threadbare" (aka heirloom) Lannister cloak on her.

You said she should've acted like a proud northern lady and defy the Lannisters somehow. but now you are criticizing her for not kneeling in her forced wedding?

 

[zandru]

54 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

YOU CANT SHAME US. WE ARE SANSA BOTS

Har! Thanks for this!

2 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

You said she should've acted like a proud northern lady and defy the Lannisters somehow. but now you are criticizing her for not kneeling in her forced wedding?

Well, you got me on that one! I would have preferred that she start being the "proud northern lady" a lot sooner. But another read is that this is typical Sansa - she understands that it will cost her nothing, put her in no danger to shame and snub Tyrion, because he will never hurt her.

Moreover, throughout her marriage (maybe that ought to be in quotes), she doesn't act proud, she acts the petulant, sulky child, always with the grumpy face and "yes, m'lord", "no, m'lord". Say what you will about the horrible, terrible, no-good Lannisters, etc - anybody who ever deals with anybody else in our world knows that you'll keep encountering the same people over and over again, and it never pays to make enemies of/cut off all contact with these people. One day you're enemies. The next day, you may have common interests and will do better by working together. Sansa's prejudices cost her a potential ally.

[Cas Stark]

Isn't she ignoring the Maester's warnings about giving her cousin too much of the sedative in her last chapter?  And she's thinking that LF and their plans are more important than her cousin's well being?  That seemed to me, when I read it, that it was very close to the same old Sansa, who picks and chooses which parts of reality she admits.

I also don't think Sansa's personality can really be blamed on her parents.  Her mother is quite savvy about politics, there is no reason to believe that she would not have imparted this to her eldest daughter.  But it appears that Sansa was not really interested in those lessons.

[LaurieMarlow]

Her mother, approaching her 40s is quite savvy (well, debateable) about politics.  For a fair comparison you'd need to look at Cat aged 12.  I highly doubt she'd be more clued in than Sansa.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Isn't she ignoring the Maester's warnings about giving her cousin too much of the sedative in her last chapter?  And she's thinking that LF and their plans are more important than her cousin's well being?  That seemed to me, when I read it, that it was very close to the same old Sansa, who picks and chooses which parts of reality she admits.

I also don't think Sansa's personality can really be blamed on her parents.  Her mother is quite savvy about politics, there is no reason to believe that she would not have imparted this to her eldest daughter.  But it appears that Sansa was not really interested in those lessons.

No she literally thinks "Our needs are not his". She knows she might hurt or kill him to keep her and LF safe. She's okay with it. Her transformation from the annoying, awful preteen to the brutal, pragmatic teenager is pretty much why she's my 2nd favorite character.

God she was awful in the first two books though

[DraculaAD1972]

I thought the real hate was for Dany. The Sansa haters are amateurs, pretending to hate but really just nit-picking. 

[Winter's Cold]

Selfishness and disloyalty to her family are the primary reasons I dislike her. Her behavior was absolutely atrocious in AGOT. The Mycah incident and Cersei incidents particularly stand out.

I also don't buy this idea that Sansa was some innocent teenage girl who was only being manipulated by others. No Sansa had a goal, a goal that she would sacrifice her own family members to achieve. Sansa's goal was to marry Joffrey and become the Queen. All of her actions were in service of that goal. She knew very well that her actions would hurt her family. She just didn't realize that she would also be hurt: Lady's execution and her imprisonment by the Lannisters.

These are her thoughts concerning what would happen to her father after she hears of his arrest by Cersei

Quote

The king! Sansa blinked back her tears. Joffrey was the king now, she thought. Her gallant prince would never hurt her father, no matter what he might have done. If she went to him and pleaded for mercy, she was certain he’d listen. He had to listen, he loved her, even the queen said so. Joff would need to punish Father, the lords would expect it, but perhaps he could send him back to Winterfell, or exile him to one of the Free Cities across the narrow sea. It would only have to be for a few years. By then she and Joffrey would be married. Once she was queen, she could persuade Joff to bring Father back and grant him a pardon

Sansa knew that her father would be punished due to her actions but thought that it was a worthy sacrifice for her to be queen. She thought he would be dismissed from his position as hand and sent back to Winterfell or even exiled from Westeros. Instead he was executed. Whoops!

She even throws her sister under the bus while proclaiming her loyalty to Cersei and Joffrey.

Quote

“I’m not like Arya,” Sansa blurted. “She has the traitor’s blood, not me. I’m good, ask Septa Mordane, she’ll tell you, I only want to be Joffrey’s loyal and loving wife.”

Sansa is a person who cares about herself first and foremost. Everyone else including her own family members are nothing but an afterthought. When comparing her actions to her self sacrificing family members like Ned, Jon, Robb and Arya, she comes off especially bad. Ned, Jon, Robb and Arya all have their foolish moments but at least they're heroic fools who try to do the right thing. Sansa is something much worse: a selfish fool. 

 

I think if Sansa belonged to a different less heroic house for instance the Lannisters, the Greyjoys, or the Boltons, she would be much less hated. Instead she is of house Stark. She is expected to be a hero like the other members of the Stark family but she falls far short. 

[winter daughter]

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

She is expected to be a hero like the other members of the Stark family but she falls far short. 

But her siblings in the current phase of their stories are not really heroes. Bran is mind raping Hodor and Arya kills people in cold blood for revenge or because she thinks she has a right to do so.

[Pikachu101]

2 hours ago, DraculaAD1972 said:

The Sansa haters are amateurs, pretending to hate but really just nit-picking. 

Well you're not wrong there