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Why do people hate Sansa?


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4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Like the author of ASOIAF Arlo is old now.  Arlo is a better story teller than Martin. I guess he got it from his pop. For fun and for free

 

Oh my...

Moose walkers... I've heard of some Spider walker thingy, but this is much spookier. The army of the undead, with the Meese (proper plural?) looks even more formidable. :(

Add in the four-part massacre, and I begin to understand George's problem - they all have to die, everyone of them. Die! Die! Die! Eat burnt bodies, have necromantcic, incestual sex, perform fratricidal incest. I mean! I mean!...:D

The Hound and Sansa, the sole survivors, in a world akin of "I am Legend" is disturbing. In addition to the rather reduced DNA, there is still the 1/2 ton of garbage to be picked up, due to the legal ramifications where Sansa's unfortunate message to Winterfell was found under the 1/2 ton of garbage, and such...

Cheerio, and move on, nothing to see here...

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On 24/10/2017 at 1:19 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

She went to Cersei with information that let her set up his capture, which led to his execution.

That said, I don't hate Sansa because it wouldn't be reasonable not to expect her to be that naïve back then.

As you said, she was naive (or a moron :P). 

She disobeyed her father but she didn't know how serious the situation was. She behaved as a petulant, selfish, spoiled brat with fancy ideas about becoming a queen married to prince charming. But it was Ned who confronted Cersei and LF would've still betrayed him. The whole situation wasn't read or handled very well by Ned. Being that with Cersei, LF, Renly ot understanding his daughter. So, ss much as I dislike her, in all honesty I can put the blame entirely on her or see her as the reason that Ned got killed.

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On 25/10/2017 at 3:17 PM, spauldo17 said:

This is asinine.  I don't know if you're a male or female but it's this mentality that drives me bananas in today's society.  As soon as anybody says anything negative there are people who immediately cry sexism.  Know what?  We can dislike a female for her negative qualities and not be sexist.  Screaming sexism is such a lazy argument and invalidates the entire discussion. It's a typical millennial attitude  of, "well this is getting tough and confrontational, so I'm just going to blame it on (fill in the blank) so I look like a victim."

And in fact, what really baffles me about the position you've decided to take is how incredibly short sighted it is.  Do you not realize that when you label everything sexism, you're diluting your own cause?  Talking about sexism is meant to draw attention to an injustice, but the more you throw around the label needlessly the more you, yourself, belittle and degrade the agenda. 

Why do I dislike Sansa?  Same reasons most do.  She's superficial, aloof, and useless.  There's not another character in the entire series that allows themselves to be manipulated and used like she does.  She offers no real plot advancement in her story arc, just bouncing from one manipulator to the next.  She spends so much time feeling sorry for herself that she never stops to consider how she may change her situation. 

Her siblings are all major role players, who have been through similarly difficult situations and decided to take charge of their own fate.  She's the only one that goes emotionally fetal.

Don't blame readers for being sexist just because you can't formulate a legitimate opinion on a discussion.

This. :agree:

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On 10/27/2017 at 8:21 PM, DraculaAD1972 said:

I'm not convinced that GRRM is into punishment of characters. He's more into punishment of readers. But he certainly makes Sansa suffer. However other characters suffer far worse. The direwolf's demise is a logical consequence of Sansa's inability to bear true witness, her cowardice dooms the beast. I'm not sure it's meant to prove anything philosophical.

Jaime says, in bad faith, to Bran: 'Take my hand...' -- later, Jaime's hand is literally taken! (This catch is courtesy of the number-one Bran aficionado @evita mgfs!)  Not only that, but shortly before his hand is taken, Jaime Lannister is 'framed by the trees'...coincidence of course, that this is in the 'Whispering Wood' and that 'whisper' is GRRM-code for 'greenseer'...(GRRM's not into punishment of characters, right...;)). 

P.S.  Every writer is expressing, if not proving, something philosophical!  

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  • 4 weeks later...

Mostly, people are allowed to like and dislike any character on the series; They just ought to be respectful to others.

As for Sansa herself, I think my username says it all. I quite like her arc, she has a great development and I'm excited to see which way the books are going to go. I'm pretty sure, as the author has said, her weapon, and by that I mean her wits, will pay off and she'll be responsible for the retaking of Winterfell. Something tells me she'll be the Lady of Winterfell when this is all over. We'll just have to see. Different roads, same ending, the man himself has said. 

I quite like how she finds strength in her resiliance to the Lannister regime, how she makes an effort to escape (With Dontos, the man she saves!) and even takes a knife to their first meeting at the Godswood, thinking that if it is a trap, she'll find a way. She survives as she uses her inner strength and her own intelligence and perception as political weapons, and she does not bend. 

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Imo Sansa gets so much hate partly because she's introduced in the context of the Starks, the closest we have to the traditional heroes of the series, so her flaws stand out more. Meanwhile other characters are much more terrible but they don't have such sympathetic foils that make them look worse.

Jaime and Tyrion for example have done much more awful things than Sansa ever has, but we're introduced to them as Lannisters - the biggest "villain" house of series at least in the first book (obviously shades of grey come in) - and we view them in comparison to Cersei, Joffrey and Tywin. So of course they seem more sympathetic.

Meanwhile, Sansa in GoT comes off terribly when lined up against her siblings who are all more likable and competent than she is. Her snobbishness, being blinded by Joffrey, and Cersei, desperation to go South/become Queen, viewing life as a song, not standing up for Arya/Mycah in the Trident incident*** and foolishness in betraying Ned wouldn't look nearly as bad if her other siblings weren't more Northern, sympathetic to the smallfolk, immediately able to realise Joffrey is scum and while naive, aren't as blinded by songs and fantasy. Even in ACoK/ASoS when Sansa's dealing with her hostage situation with a heck more maturity than your average 12 year old girl, it still pales in comparison to Jon infiltrating the Wildlings; Arya surviving in a war-zone, winning over assassins and escaping her own imprisonment situation; Bran ruling Winterfell and Robb leading a war effort.

(Setting up Sansa as a foil for Arya was always going to make Sansa's likability an uphill battle. I mean, at least in AGoT, who are readers going to side with? The scrappy, underdog tomboy who befriends/defends commoners, beats up sadistic shithead and learns to sword-fight, or her older sister who bullies her and spends most of her narration sighing over an obviously-evil prince?)

***Not going to get in another debate about the Trident incident, but for comparison - if it had been Jon, Robb or Bran who had to tell Robert what happened between Joffrey and Arya - do you think for a second they wouldn't have backed up Arya up? Lied about what happened after watching Joffrey try to kill their little sister? Imo, it's that kind of comparison that hurts Sansa the most.

There are other reasons - bias against traditionally feminine/girly characters, some sexism etc. but I think her comparison to the other Starks is a big one. If she was deliberately introduced from an antagonistic and/or not sympathetic background/context it might be different.

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I think Sansa chapters requires a lot of effort to read- her internal monologue is colored with naivete and outright self-deception- and she is very passive which is very frustrating for me as she just keeps making bad decisions and more often than not no decision and just lets thing happen to her. I can't not love all of the Starks but she is definitely my problem wolf pup. That said, she rewards careful reading and I hold out hope that she will end as the Pawn who became Queen.

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1 hour ago, hiemal said:

I think Sansa chapters requires a lot of effort to read- her internal monologue is colored with naivete and outright self-deception- and she is very passive which is very frustrating for me as she just keeps making bad decisions and more often than not no decision and just lets thing happen to her. I can't not love all of the Starks but she is definitely my problem wolf pup. That said, she rewards careful reading and I hold out hope that she will end as the Pawn who became Queen.

I'm not sure if she will become queen (will there be anything left to be queen of?), her time with the smallfolk seem to show her being some sort of a guide, though. However, I do agree that her chapters require careful reading, and rereading, and I can't help but think the Sansa apple has not fallen too far from the Weirwood tree ;)

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Too be honest I think a lot of hate for Sansa comes from Sansa fans themselves.

I love Sansa's chapters and I love rereading her chapters and during season two she kicked Arya of my favorite characters list and replaced her however I still get labeled a Sansa hater because I don't agree with how the "real" Sansa fans see her.

Sansa does get a lot of unnecessary hate but then so do all the characters.

One of the things I love about asoiaf is that all the characters have moments where they are brilliant and moments where they just come across as stupid but if you try to point out any of Sansa's flaws you get a lot of backlash. Even if you are just using thoughs flaws as a way to figure out where her story line is going.

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My problem with her is that she is a realistic teenager...

Yes, I don't like kids lol

I don't actually dislike her more than say Rickon, because uggh, kids.

I can like Arya because she is a somewhat unrealistic or unusual from my standpoint child.

Sansa first informed on her Father to Cersei, but not having learned anything from that also informed on herself to Dontos scuttling the perhaps one good plan to get out of danger. But that sounds about right for a teenager, they are all stupid, I was stupid, maybe still am, that's why I don't like her, too realistic.

Because Note, I am a big lover of the Alayne character heh

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22 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I'm not sure if she will become queen (will there be anything left to be queen of?), her time with the smallfolk seem to show her being some sort of a guide, though. However, I do agree that her chapters require careful reading, and rereading, and I can't help but think the Sansa apple has not fallen too far from the Weirwood tree ;)

Yeah I'm not keen on her becoming Queen - it would feel super redundant to get what she was dreaming of as a naive 11yo in book 1. And she hasn't had the training in ruling; yes she's learned politics and scheming - but actual learning or practicing being a leader the way Jon, Dany and even Bran have? No. (In the books her main training phase seems to be politics/manipulation with LF and in the show her arc is just all over the place). 

I'd love to see her wielding soft political power at the end, in a Kings Hand/Small Council type role like Littlefinger or Renly did (but a benevolent version working for the good of the realm obviously) or a ambassador between the North and South as she's the Stark with the most Southern connections/skills. But Sansa getting exactly was she wanted at the start after all her changes and character development seems meh. 

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22 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

:agree:

Sansa has to be queen, she's literally asoiaf's Elizabeth of York

...or she could be asoiaf's Anne Neville who she has even more parallels with. GRRM rarely does easy x = x parallels, both Theon and Tyrion are versions of Richard III for instance. I've never been super persuaded that by the "Sansa is literally Elizabeth of York" argument when she has parallels with multiple historical figures, while there's undoubtedly similarities with EoY most of the discourse seems to be focused on that totally revealing Sansa's end game and (becoming Queen) rather than what's come before as much. 

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1 hour ago, AryaUnderfoot33 said:

Yeah I'm not keen on her becoming Queen - it would feel super redundant to get what she was dreaming of as a naive 11yo in book 1. And she hasn't had the training in ruling; yes she's learned politics and scheming - but actual learning or practicing being a leader the way Jon, Dany and even Bran have? No. (In the books her main training phase seems to be politics/manipulation with LF and in the show her arc is just all over the place). 

I'd love to see her wielding soft political power at the end, in a Kings Hand/Small Council type role like Littlefinger or Renly did (but a benevolent version working for the good of the realm obviously) or a ambassador between the North and South as she's the Stark with the most Southern connections/skills. But Sansa getting exactly was she wanted at the start after all her changes and character development seems meh. 

I think there is still time for Sansa to learn about ruling and politics. But this maybe by Stark bias talking. And I haven't read any of the winds chapters. But I think Sansa still has a long way to go and the forthcoming books will probably show a lot more character development for her.

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