Why do people hate Sansa?

[Morgana Lannister]

On 10/23/2017 at 4:11 PM, LionoftheWest said:

I liked and like Sansa but I suspect that many people holds Tomboys to be better in some fashion than girly and so they are predisposed to magnify Sansa's bad acts and flaws and turn a blind  eye to her good acts and qualities, and the reversed for Arya. Its kind of the same with many other characters view favorably or unfavorably by fans.

And please note that I don't for a second think that I'm some perfect person. But I do hope that my awerness of these issues allowes me to get a better grasp on characters than if I wasn't aware of this.

I agree, one of the main reasons Arya, although I do like her, gets away with murder quite literal;y is that she is "bad ass."

Yes, Sansa can be very selfish indeed, all of the characters that are fleshed out in this series have major flaws, but yes had Sansa done a 10% of what Arya did people would be calling her a psychopath.  Why because the readership and most people in real life do prefer a bad-ass to an arty-farty type!

Don't get me wrong, Arya was more noble in book 1 than Sansa but she grew up too.  I was never the sporty bad ass  type but more one who liked to write and draw, and although I like Arya too I do feel that oftentimes society does prefer the bad-ass no matter what.  Arya has great qualities but when compared with other characters, like even say Tyrion, she can do no wrong proportionally lol and yet she is the only one who has killed people who had no quarrel with her lol.  Two wrongs don't make a right and I like them both but I certainly feel that Arya is better liked because she is more of a tom-boy and a fighter.  On her favour, at least at the beginning, Arya has a better disposition for lower borns than Sansa but hey all developed characters in this series are grey lol and Sansa grew out of a lot of her silliness in time, Arya got way more lethal...

[Morgana Lannister]

On 10/23/2017 at 5:17 PM, zandru said:

Sansa has always suffered in comparisons with Arya. First, there's the whole "mean girl" dynamic with Sansa and Jeyne picking on Arya, which often caused Arya to go off to cry. Then Sansa seizing with both dainty fists the news that she will eventually be The Queen and everyone, especially her unsatisfactory little sister, will need to kneel before her and call her "your grace." The inside-Sansa's-head chapters paint an unflattering picture of a selfish, self obsessed, snobbish little twit. Of course, she'd only 10 years old  in the beginning.

Arya, in contrast, evokes an interest in all aspects of the world, particularly the man's side of it. She talks with anyone, regardless of their social class. As the story goes on and Ned is executed, Arya's life becomes one of unbelievable hardship which she manages to weather. Sleeping in alleyways, traveling incognito as a boy, watching torture, being beaten, working hard as the lowliest stair-scrubbing servant, leading the escape with her Night's Watch friends. Through it all, Arya takes on the active role, generally the leadership role, and works to protect all of her little band, not to mention various other innocents. And she was just 8!

Then there's Sansa, living in luxury in the Red Keep, with servants tending to her every need, never going hungry except when her "tummy" is too "tender". She falls easily into the role of "battered wife", never working to escape or make her plight known to anyone who might help her. She thinks a lady's armor is her passivity. Amazingly (to me), a lot of readers really like this.

Sansa would have come across better, in my opinion, had Arya not been her sister. Sansa really is the perfect "Sleeping Beauty" disney princess type. Waiting for her white knight to come riding up in his shining armor and save her, then living happily ever after. It's one of George RR's cruel jokes that innocent, beautiful, high-bred princesses may not automatically come out on top.

Can you suggest a course of action Sansa realistically could have taken after Ned was killed? given her skills and the fact that she is not master with a sword?

[Morgana Lannister]

On 10/23/2017 at 9:53 PM, zandru said:

I don't understand the "Eastern philosophy" part. Explain? Also, I don't see Sansa as blissfully "living in her present" where she's the battered wife, in constant fear for her life which somehow makes her a better person. I never got the impression that she took a philosophical approach to what was happening: it was a victim's response and learned helplessness. And there WERE things she could have done to resist and to make it clear to the court what was happening to her with the beatings, etc. She didn't have to cover up her bruises (she didn't want Joffrey to get in trouble with Cersei; she wanted to look pretty for him - come on!); she could have worn them "like a badge of honor" the way Cersei did when Robert hit her.

Justice.

I do seriously wonder if you have ever personally been a victim of anything but your obsession with "agency" lol  She could not "afford" to get Joffrey in trouble or her head would go lol.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 10/23/2017 at 4:11 PM, LionoftheWest said:

I liked and like Sansa but I suspect that many people holds Tomboys to be better in some fashion than girly and so they are predisposed to magnify Sansa's bad acts and flaws and turn a blind  eye to her good acts and qualities, and the reversed for Arya. Its kind of the same with many other characters view favorably or unfavorably by fans.

And please note that I don't for a second think that I'm some perfect person. But I do hope that my awerness of these issues allowes me to get a better grasp on characters than if I wasn't aware of this.

I agree completely.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 10/23/2017 at 9:56 PM, zandru said:

This. To give Sansa some credit, she'd overdosed herself on heroic "songs" of helpless princesses and the daring knights who rescued them. It was like the idea of doing her OWN rescue had never occurred to her, or was unladylike - or too much like Arya. Like I alluded to, it was "learned helplessness." This can take awhile to break out of.

I am sorry but you are beginning to get to me with your sarcasm and "pity".  Have you ever been in a job you hated, say, but you had to choice but to stay, say, to keep your mortgage payments or feed your children,say?  Have you ever lived under a political regime you hated but lacked nuclear weapons to do something about it???  You sound as if you are always able to take direct action.  If you have been so lucky in your life so far I admire you and congratulate you, otherwise I think you are likely to be the one who truly lives in "songs" of direct action and feminism  in their own ideal fantasy world.  Okay, granted Arya did but by a combination of skills and circumstances and people that she encountered in her travels lol.

I am by no means discouraging women or men either from taking their destiny into their own hands but Sansa hardly had the means and that seems, in your opinion, where she is truly lacking.  How exactly would you have done it better in her shoes at the time?  Okay yes, the Lady business was bad and running to Cersei and trusting her but after that???

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

I think the first part of your statement described me the first time I read the book. I really thought she was on a track to become the next Cersei. My sister told me Sansa was her favorite character, and I was so flabbergasted I went back and re-read just her chapters in order. I think this gave me a better picture of her as a character overall. It changed me from thinking she was selfish in a Regina George sense to seeing her as selfish in a juvenile way (maybe even a bit immature for her age, but not much if my seventh grade students are any comparison). Its hard to judge Sansa fairly when Dany and Arya seem so crazy mature for their age. 

Yes, I think a lot of people have the same reaction. And on later readings see that she is very different to how they first perceived her. 

I'm afraid I don't know who Regina George is or how old a seventh grader would be? 

But I have 3 kids and one is 11 and another 9 and if people think Arya & Sansa are not normal siblings of that age or that Sansa at 11 is disgusting & irredeemable then frankly they are delusional.  Even the eldest who is almost 13 wouldn't conform to the standards of maturity and self awareness which they hold Sansa to.

I've said it before but I feel like audio recording them fighting and posting it; they even have the right accents. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

13 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I dunna know about projection. I think Sansa was written as a self centered tween.  Sansa has had her difficulties throughout the story. I feel sorry for the kid.

WoW hasn’t been released yet. Sansa is approximately 13 years of age and she hasn’t grown much since the beginning of the saga. She has aged. She has been used and abused. Sansa is still basically powerless and dependent.

The Winds of Winter - Alayne I    "Come," Petyr said, "walk with me." He took her by the arm and led her deeper into the vaults, past an empty dungeon. "And how was your first meeting with Harry the Heir?"    "He's horrible."      "The world is full of horrors, sweet. By now you ought to know that. You've seen enough of them."

 

Sansa is of the opinion that Harry is horrible. In the end Sansa does what LF wants ---- Charm him [Harry]. Entrance him. Bewitch him.

LF is pimping Sansa. Sansa, the 13 year old,  is dependent upon LF for her well being. Sansa Stark Lannister is a fugitive.

Projection and the much tossed around “hate” comes more from individuals who refuse to read the character as written.

All tweens are self centred trust me I have 3 of the little fuckers.  

Yet she matures and learns and her world view changes. She does make active choices(accepting the proposal by the Tyrells to wed Willas.) and take risks to help others (saving Dontos & telling the Tyrells about Joffrey.) and to protect herself(taking a knife into the godswood to meet the sender of the note) she even makes active choices to escape KL the fact it might be out of the frying pan into the fire doesn't change that she chose to do it.

  The people who dislike her refuse to see this though.

And I think tbh the way she is introduced to us in an unfavourable light causes this due to superficial  reading. It is the same phenomena that causes many readers to see Tyrion as this fantastic person despite the fact he's a rapist and a murderer. With some serious issues going on. 

She is powerless at first glance yes, and she is dependant. But she uses what little power she does have to make life a little better and hopefully manipulate things a bit. 

The quote you gave from TWOW shows this really well actually. 

 

Spoiler

The chapter opens with Sansa making her way through the castle courtyard and interacting with various people along the way. And lots of the interaction is flirtatious. But when she see's LF she plays the part that he wants her to. She acts innocent and makes him feel needed etc. Which is playing to how he views himself and what he wants her to be but isn't the truth. 

TWOW Alayne I

Quote

 

Petyr put his arm around her. "So he is, but he is Robert's heir as well. Bringing Harry here was the first step in our plan, but now we need to keep him, and only you can do that. He has a weakness for a pretty face, and whose face is prettier than yours? Charm him. Entrance him. Bewitch him."

"I don't know how," she said miserably.

 

She does now how she is an excellent flirt,we just followed her flirting her way through the castle and she proves it when she is actually with Harry, she follows LF's instructions but she plays him very differently to how LF advised. He suggests the things that he finds appealing. But Sansa reads Harry as being interested in something else and plays it far more knowingly. And crucially she does not take him outside which would have potentially compromised her, exposing her to advances she'd struggle to fend off and gossip which would endanger her fragile status.

This shows that she is playing LF even if it is subtle. And that she is well aware of what he wants from her. She's learnt the lesson he taught in AFFC "When you know what motivates a man you know how to move him." 

It is further illustrated in Alayne I

Spoiler

By the giant lemon cake which LF has had made at great expense and difficulty for Lord Robert; actually to please Sansa. Again she's aware he wants her and that she can manipulate him because of this.

And again further by the fact she has managed to persuade him to throw her a big party. The tourney, her reasons are to help Robert and protect him but the wording implies she knew just how to sell it to LF inorder to make it happen .

Quote

It had fallen out just as Petyr said it would, the day the ravens flew. "They're young, eager, hungry for adventure and renown. Lysa would not let them go to war. This is the next best thing. A chance to serve their lord and prove their prowess. They will come. Even Harry the Heir." He had smoothed her hair and kissed her forehead. "What a clever daughter you are."

It was clever. The tourney, the prizes, the winged knights, it had all been her own notion. Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of Ser Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line. Why not surround him with Winged Knights? She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave. And no sooner did she tell Petyr her idea than he went out and made it happen

I've actually seen people try to argue that Peytr made her suggest it and it was his idea all along, which shows us how desperate to deny that Sansa has anything about her at all they are. . 

So to say she is powerless is wrong, she has soft power and is learning how to wield it. She is dependant though I agree. And a fugitive. But whilst he is pimping her out for his own gain, she's aware of that and she's adjusting his instructions to protect herself. And manipulating him in turn.

As well as that she is actually desirous of the plan, she wants WF back, her identity back, and to go home. The marriage to Harry has been sold to her on that basis. Wether she is willing to actually go through with it is another question or indeed if she ever has to make that choice. Things might happen that change LF's plans. Like Stannis rousting the Boltons from WF then dying leaving a power vacuum that LF can't resist.   

I completely agree they do refuse to read her as she is written. They project all sorts of crap onto her which is just not evidenced by the text. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

10 hours ago, teej6 said:

Well just because people don’t agree with your views on a character that does not mean they do not have a “good grasp on the inner themes of the story...” Sansa, in my view, was initially written by GRRM as a foil to Arya’s heroic arc. Ergo, Arya identifying with the poor and downtrodden, for instance the butcher’s boy, whereas Sansa being disgusted by the boy’s smell. Or when Arya is willing to tell the truth about the incident at the Trident but Sansa isn’t. Even in this instance, GRRM has Arya shouting out against them killing Lady (just after Sansa had refused to support Arya’s version of the events) whereas Sansa screaming it’s Arya’s and Nymeria’s fault. GRRM clearly draws out the difference in the characters of the sisters. Then we have Sansa’s betrayal of her father’s trust. We can debate ad nauseam on whether Sansa’s betrayal helped Cersei or not but that’s not the point. The point is Sansa, after witnessing Cersei and the Lannisters’ (Jamie had killed Jory and she knew of her father’s dislike of the Lannisters) actions till then, could still run to Cersei and reveal her father’s plan when she was expressly asked not to do so by Ned. Now before you go saying that she was only a child, GRRM wrote Arya as being two years younger than Sansa but still being able to recognize Cersei and Joffrey for who they truly were. Sansa’s arc in AGOT, in my view, was intentionally written by GRRM as disloyal, naive, selfish, and, snobbish (sorry couldn’t resist ) for the readers to identify with her little sister who was the opposite in every way. 

My gripe with AGOT Sansa is that she was willing to admit (yes reluctantly) that her father is a traitor so as to be able marry Joffrey. Yes, she justifies this by stating that she can convince her prince to show mercy and exile her father and then bring him back after a while. The fact that she is capable of thinking through all of this but is not able to see or even worse does not want to admit that Cersei and her son are monsters is what rubbed me the wrong way about AGOT Sansa. By acknowledging her father is a traitor, she is turning her back on her family and her father’s values. You might ask what else is a frightened eleven year old to do. But we have her thoughts when she agrees to write the letters, and it’s not fear for her life that causes her to write Cersei’s letters but it is her desire to marry Joffrey and be his queen. All Cersei had to dangle in front of Sansa in writing the letters calling her father a traitor was the threat of her not being able to marry Joff and be his queen. 

Post AGOT Sansa, is definitely more interesting and likable, and her POV chapters show that she is able to recognize people’s characters and their motives better and admit their flaws. She longs for her family and home again. The only issue I have is her resignation to her fate and her trust in Littlefinger. She knows Littlefinger’s darkest secrets, yet as Alayne, she pretends to herself that he knows best and is looking out for their interests. Perhaps this is the calm before the storm and she will stab LF in the back at the opportune moment. But to me there’s also a bit of Stockholm syndrome with Sansa’s and LF’s dynamics... he’s become the mentor/father figure in her life and she is slowly becoming an accomplice in his crimes and dealings. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens in Winds.

I'm not sure what you're expecting as a response? 

Do you think I am wrong that the dislike comes from a lack of grasp on the inner themes? Because if this is the case you have failed to demonstrate that your reasons are different.  You haven't given anything that evidenced your're understanding of her as a character you have only said you think the whole purpose of her is to make Arya look good and then waffled about the two things most haters site to justify their dislike. 

I certainly am not getting into that bull shit! I'm sure you are well aware that Sansa couldn't realistically make a different choice at the trident and that her thoughts about Joffrey & Cersei change rapidly once Ned is executed. The absurdity of getting fixated on the one negative about her from the first book and missing all the development and themes of her character is laughable.  Anyone who thinks GRRM isn't writing Sansa her own important and interesting story and that she is just a foil is not reading beyond a superficial level. Sansa has undergone a rich and valuable journey one which is not over by a long chalk. 

I challenge you to put aside your prejudice and write to me about the inner themes of her story and explore her character in terms of herself not her sister.  

P.S how can you criticise her for mistakenly believing LF is looking out for her best interests ( she isn't but that's a another matter.) Yet say that her eventually turning against him would be stabbing him in the back? Don't you see the hypocrisy in that? And that really demonstrates the double standard Sansa "haters" hold. 

 

[teej6]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not sure what you're expecting as a response? 

Do you think I am wrong that the dislike comes from a lack of grasp on the inner themes? Because if this is the case you have failed to demonstrate that your reasons are different.  You haven't given anything that evidenced your're understanding of her as a character you have only said you think the whole purpose of her is to make Arya look good and then waffled about the two things most haters site to justify their dislike. 

I certainly am not getting into that bull shit! I'm sure you are well aware that Sansa couldn't realistically make a different choice at the trident and that her thoughts about Joffrey & Cersei change rapidly once Ned is executed. The absurdity of getting fixated on the one negative about her from the first book and missing all the development and themes of her character is laughable.  Anyone who thinks GRRM isn't writing Sansa her own important and interesting story and that she is just a foil is not reading beyond a superficial level. Sansa has undergone a rich and valuable journey one which is not over by a long chalk. 

I challenge you to put aside your prejudice and write to me about the inner themes of her story and explore her character in terms of herself not her sister.  

P.S how can you criticise her for mistakenly believing LF is looking out for her best interests ( she isn't but that's a another matter.) Yet say that her eventually turning against him would be stabbing him in the back? Don't you see the hypocrisy in that? And that really demonstrates the double standard Sansa "haters" hold. 

 

Well I gave you my reasons for why people like myself found AGOT Sansa dislikable. And yes, I do think you are wrong in your vain assumption that the dislike for her character comes “from a lack of grasp on the inner themes”, whatever that means. Just because people don’t subscribe to your views doesn’t make them any less literary savvy than you. I’m sure a lot of them have much better comprehension skills than you do. People identify and empathize with different characters in the books and the fact that some people can’t empathize or excuse AGOT Sansa’s actions doesn’t mean their interpretation of the character is wrong, it just means it’s different from yours. That happens you know with literary works, that’s why you have book clubs and discussion groups.  

As for the Trident incident, Sansa did have a choice. She chose not to tell the truth because she thought Joffrey would love her less. She made a choice, and you may agree with the choice but other readers may not. Calling their opinion “bull shit” is childish.

I don’t know what the hell you mean in the last paragraph. All I was trying to say was that Sansa’s trust and reliance in LF  (which very well could be an act but as of now there’s no sure way of knowing is there?) is getting to be a bit disturbing but I admit that I believe (or hope) she will turn the tables on LF when he least expects it. Don’t know where your hypocrisy argument is stemming from. 

And FYI, I like post AGOT Sansa just fine. And I’m even rooting for her to take down LF. 

[Bowen Marsh]

Sansa is irritating because of her immaturity and selfishness.  Those are my reasons. 

A lot of fans dislike her because she betrayed her dad to Cersei.  She could have told the truth on the Kingsroad and made the choice to back Joffrey instead.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

18 hours ago, teej6 said:

Well I gave you my reasons for why people like myself found AGOT Sansa dislikable. And yes, I do think you are wrong in your vain assumption that the dislike for her character comes “from a lack of grasp on the inner themes”, whatever that means. Just because people don’t subscribe to your views doesn’t make them any less literary savvy than you. I’m sure a lot of them have much better comprehension skills than you do. People identify and empathize with different characters in the books and the fact that some people can’t empathize or excuse AGOT Sansa’s actions doesn’t mean their interpretation of the character is wrong, it just means it’s different from yours. That happens you know with literary works, that’s why you have book clubs and discussion groups.  

As for the Trident incident, Sansa did have a choice. She chose not to tell the truth because she thought Joffrey would love her less. She made a choice, and you may agree with the choice but other readers may not. Calling their opinion “bull shit” is childish.

I don’t know what the hell you mean in the last paragraph. All I was trying to say was that Sansa’s trust and reliance in LF  (which very well could be an act but as of now there’s no sure way of knowing is there?) is getting to be a bit disturbing but I admit that I believe (or hope) she will turn the tables on LF when he least expects it. Don’t know where your hypocrisy argument is stemming from. 

And FYI, I like post AGOT Sansa just fine. And I’m even rooting for her to take down LF. 

So you don't know how to do literary analysis? Or you just genuinely feel she has no story or character development of her own and is a character on a level with say Areoh Hotah who is a walking POV camera ?  Understanding a character isn't about empathising with them, I don't empathise with Dany say, but I could still write you an essay exploring the intricate points of her story and what the author is trying to convey etc. Or Stannis or Robert hell anyone I don't "like" I say that because I don't actively dislike anyone. Even people who are "baddies" I could write you an analysis of. 

Please, tell me how telling the truth would benefit anyone in that scenario? 

You don't understand hypocrisy? OK. You criticise her for being gullible as you perceive it, but you use the term stab in the back to describe what it would be if she turned on him. Either you want her to wake up and defeat him, or you want her to trust him and follow him. But you can't have it both ways. Wanting her to wake up and see him for what he is but referring to her defeating him as back stabbing infers you think her doing so would be a betrayal? Not self defence? Or vengeance/punishment/justice. 

The language we use conveys our meaning, if you chose poorly people will assume things that you maybe did not mean. 

[Chancho]

Young Sansa was a futile person, but she was a kid, a kid training to learn her role (With no way to prepare for this gigantic nightmare). On my re-reads, i see a girl in thin ice, trying to survive with so many emotions and frustrations, monsters all around her, she was so alone, painfully alone... She survived, she got smarter,, she is not someone looking at pretty and shinning things no more, she is a player now. and the game has finally room for her dreams too. She sufferred a great deal, but she is reborn, she will learn and someday she will be the one doing all the teaching.

[teej6]

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So you don't know how to do literary analysis? Or you just genuinely feel she has no story or character development of her own and is a character on a level with say Areoh Hotah who is a walking POV camera ?  Understanding a character isn't about empathising with them, I don't empathise with Dany say, but I could still write you an essay exploring the intricate points of her story and what the author is trying to convey etc. Or Stannis or Robert hell anyone I don't "like" I say that because I don't actively dislike anyone. Even people who are "baddies" I could write you an analysis of. 

Please, tell me how telling the truth would benefit anyone in that scenario? 

You don't understand hypocrisy? OK. You criticise her for being gullible as you perceive it, but you use the term stab in the back to describe what it would be if she turned on him. Either you want her to wake up and defeat him, or you want her to trust him and follow him. But you can't have it both ways. Wanting her to wake up and see him for what he is but referring to her defeating him as back stabbing infers you think her doing so would be a betrayal? Not self defence? Or vengeance/punishment/justice. 

The language we use conveys our meaning, if you chose poorly people will assume things that you maybe did not mean. 

Well the topic of the OP is “Why do people hate Sansa”? No one is debating whether Sansa’s character is developed or not. By comparing AGOT Sansa to Arya, I wasn’t stating her character was underdeveloped but rather a foil — contrasting her sister’s character — and hence perhaps the dislike for her character in the first book. It seems like you are confusing character development for like/dislike of a character. Sansa doesn’t have to be a minor character in the story to be disliked. Many a protagonist in many a story are dislikable. To me it seems that you are terribly confused and the one that does not seem to understand how literary critique/analysis works.

The point I made with empathy is that some people like characters that they empathize with or identify with. It does not necessarily have to be the case. Other times people like characters with certain ideals/virtues that they aspire to. That’s why you still have heroes and villains in stories. Good writers are able to make the reader feel/empathize with the antagonist as well. And, no one is debating whether you can write an essay or analyze this or that character. The topic of the OP, again, is why people dislike Sansa. One can analyze the intricacies of the character as you put it and still dislike the character. The two are not mutually exclusive.  

Telling the truth at the Trident would have probably saved Lady’s/Mycah’s lives, we don’t know. And the point of telling the truth is not to benefit anyone, it is the merit of the act itself. By failing to tell the truth (or not remember), Sansa’s character was contrasted against that of her little sister who did speak the truth but was abandoned by her big sister. This was a defining moment in Sansa’s arc in AGOT for many readers like myself, which showed Sansa’s lack of character in the first book. However, as I mentioned before, as the story progressed, and Sansa broke free (somewhat) of her childish fantasies and naivete, she definitely became more likable.

Again, your convoluted line of thinking and calling my argument hypocritical is lost on me. I stated that Sansa’s trust in LF is troubling but also noted that it could be an act on her part and she may end up turning the tables on him/stabbing him in the back at the opportune moment. (And, FYI, back stabbing LF is a good thing). I’ll break it down for you. First part of the sentence (the trust part) troubling to me, although I’m hoping that this is an act, ergo the second part — her taking down LF (good part). Clear? No hypocrisy in that statement. I clearly stated I do not want Sansa to trust LF, which to me is a flaw. Again, it seems like you’re the one that doesn’t understand the concept of hypocrisy or are having trouble comprehending. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

49 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Well the topic of the OP is “Why do people hate Sansa” and having character development or not is irrelevant to the discussion, dont you think? No one is debating whether Sansa’s character is developed or not. By comparing AGOT Sansa to Arya, I wasn’t stating her character was underdeveloped but rather a foil, contrasting her sister and hence perhaps the dislike for her character in the first book. It seems like you are confusing character development for like/dislike of a character. Sansa doesn’t have to be a minor character in the story to be disliked. Many a protagonist in many a story are dislikable. To me it seems that you are terribly confused and the one that does not seem to understand how literary critique/analysis works.

Telling the truth at the Trident would have probably saved Lady’s/Mycah’s lives, we don’t know. And the point of telling the truth is not to benefit anyone, it was the merit of the act itself. 

Again, your convoluted line of thinking and calling my argument hypocritical is lost on me. I stated that Sansa’s trust in LF is troubling but also noted that it could be an act on her part and she may end up turning the tables on him/stabbing him in the back at the opportune moment. (and FYI, back stabbing LF is a good thing) I’ll break it down for you. First part of the sentence (the trust part) troubling to me, although I’m hoping that this is an act, ergo the second part — her taking down LF (good part). Clear? No hypocrisy in that statement. I clearly stated I do not want Sansa to trust LF, which to me is a flaw. Again, it seems like you’re the one that doesn’t understand the concept of hypocrisy or are having trouble comprehending. 

You disputed my interpretation as to why people dislike her. I said I feel they don't understand her character or the inner themes of her arc. You said No it isn't and I asked you if you could write about how you see her  character and the themes within her story. You declined to do so. I said understanding a character is not about empathising with them or liking/disliking them. And again invited you to expand on your ideas about her as a character from a literary analysis point of view. You gave nothing in your post that made me feel you had an understanding of her character and the themes of her story arc. And even if you had written something I disagreed with I'd have seen you demonstrate an attempt at thoughtful analysis. If it had been there. you need only look at other threads to see that I engage intellectually with people who I disagree with all the time. But one can not engage at all if the other party doesn't offer an opinion beyond she lied/betrayed her father in book 1.

Nope. Mycah was already dead before Sansa was asked to speak. The hound was acting independently of the courts ruling and returned to the castle with the dead body of Mycah without waiting to find out what anyone had said or not. 

And nor would it have saved Ladies life. Cersei calls for lady's killing in response to Nymeria being unavailable. Arya already drove her off. Had Sansa spoken against her son do you think Cersei would have spared Lady? 

The merit of the act itself. Please!!! For crying out loud. Sure tell the truth to the lady who wants to have her little sisters hand chopped off for striking the prince. Tell her all about how Arya beat and humiliated her precious golden baby, how her wolf savaged his arm and she belittled him. I'm Quite certain that had Sansa told the truth Cersei would have been apoplectic. How is that a better outcome, and how do you justify it by saying well telling the truth has merit. 

The phrase to stab in the back. 

Meaning to betray 

The phrase you chose to illustrate your point was one which is used to convey a treacherous act or betrayal. Either you see her turning on him as a positive thing or you see it as treachery, which is it? Because if it is the former, which you seem to be clarifying it as I'd suggest you chose your words very poorly. Which I tried to convey already. 

Lastly no she doesn't trust him, her internal monologue is conflicted she thinks about how kind he has been but also reminds herself that is not his tru nature. That the man she knew in KL never helped her and that he has ulterior motive. That isn't blind trust. 

 

[zandru]

On 5/6/2018 at 10:44 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

Can you suggest a course of action Sansa realistically could have taken after Ned was killed? given her skills and the fact that she is not master with a sword?

Ha! The topic slipped off the main list and I went elsewhere... You seem, in this and other posts, to assume the only solution to anything is violence - swords, nukes (!!). What could Sansa have done?

• Not concealed her bruises. Sure, "Joffrey wouldn't like it". But had Sansa appeared in court, or before Cersei, all bloody and black&blue, people would have at least wondered what had happened, what was going on.
• Made allies. Sansa never bothered to talk to her servants or even learn their names because she assumed they'd tell all to Cersei anyway. Unstated was that they were just smallfolk. Had she been friendly, word would have gotten around and bought her good will among the folks who actually made things run in the Red Keep.
• Made allies. A little more communication with the few Kingsguards who were sympathetic. Say, mention how "unknightly" Joffrey's orders were, sadness that he would make them break their vows of knighthood. A little more friendliness with the Hound, who seems to have been increasingly on edge with this new Mad King Joffrey and seemed to be drinking a lot more as a consequence.
• Made allies. Tyrion arrived and greeted her with politeness and sympathy. Later, he literally rescued her. She would have been blind and deaf not to see the degree of enmity between Tyrion and his sister and Joffrey. He was, furthermore, Acting Hand with power to counteract the "King". She should have taken advantage of this most powerful ally.
• Held her head high as a Northern Lady. Start dressing the part - Sansa is supposed to be a whiz with needlework, and we see she has plenty of time on her hands. Wear Northern dress. Do her hair in Northern styles.
• Stop groveling about what a traitor you and the rest of your family are.
• Stop proclaiming your undying love for Wormlips Joffrey.

Arya submitted when necessary, but she never stopped looking for ways to escape, ways to achieve revenge. She "networked". She reconnoitered. She kept herself in shape. None of this was beyond Sansa's capabilities.

[teej6]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You disputed my interpretation as to why people dislike her. I said I feel they don't understand her character or the inner themes of her arc. You said No it isn't and I asked you if you could write about how you see her  character and the themes within her story. You declined to do so. I said understanding a character is not about empathising with them or liking/disliking them. And again invited you to expand on your ideas about her as a character from a literary analysis point of view. You gave nothing in your post that made me feel you had an understanding of her character and the themes of her story arc. And even if you had written something I disagreed with I'd have seen you demonstrate an attempt at thoughtful analysis. If it had been there. you need only look at other threads to see that I engage intellectually with people who I disagree with all the time. But one can not engage at all if the other party doesn't offer an opinion beyond she lied/betrayed her father in book 1.

Nope. Mycah was already dead before Sansa was asked to speak. The hound was acting independently of the courts ruling and returned to the castle with the dead body of Mycah without waiting to find out what anyone had said or not. 

And nor would it have saved Ladies life. Cersei calls for lady's killing in response to Nymeria being unavailable. Arya already drove her off. Had Sansa spoken against her son do you think Cersei would have spared Lady? 

The merit of the act itself. Please!!! For crying out loud. Sure tell the truth to the lady who wants to have her little sisters hand chopped off for striking the prince. Tell her all about how Arya beat and humiliated her precious golden baby, how her wolf savaged his arm and she belittled him. I'm Quite certain that had Sansa told the truth Cersei would have been apoplectic. How is that a better outcome, and how do you justify it by saying well telling the truth has merit. 

The phrase to stab in the back. 

Meaning to betray 

The phrase you chose to illustrate your point was one which is used to convey a treacherous act or betrayal. Either you see her turning on him as a positive thing or you see it as treachery, which is it? Because if it is the former, which you seem to be clarifying it as I'd suggest you chose your words very poorly. Which I tried to convey already. 

Lastly no she doesn't trust him, her internal monologue is conflicted she thinks about how kind he has been but also reminds herself that is not his tru nature. That the man she knew in KL never helped her and that he has ulterior motive. That isn't blind trust. 

 

Stating that people who disagree with your opinion of a character does not fully comprehend the story as you do is not “engaging intellectually” with them. And yes, I still dispute your interpretation that people dislike Sansa because of their lack of understanding of the character. In my first post I explained why people disliked  Sansa in the first book — because she was written as such by the author. In subsequent books, GRRM decided to show the character’s growth and realization of her follies and hence people began to like and appreciate the character more. As simple as that. And as to you harping on the themes within her story — the theme of AGOT Sansa was that she was a sheltered, naive, spoiled, vain, self-centered, dishonest, disloyal (to her family) person as compared to her little sister, who is loyal, compassionate, empathetic (to people less fortunate than her), and honest. And empathizing with a character goes a long way in understanding a character. And if you don’t know that basic tenet of storytelling, there’s no point having this debate. 

I’ll admit Mycah would probably have been killed no matter what although it doesn’t state anywhere in the book that he was already dead when Sansa was asked to tell the truth. Yes, Sandor was already out hunting the boy and he would have killed him whatever the outcome. As to Lady’s death, we don’t know how Robert would have reacted if Sansa had corroborated Arya’s story. He already was looking for a reason to spare Ned and his children. Confirming that Joffrey was the initial aggressor would perhaps have given him a reason to fully silence Cersei. We just don’t know and that’s the point.  

Well, Cersei already knew that Arya beat and humiliated Joffrey, that wasn’t in dispute. Why for crying out loud, Arya admitted to it. What was being disputed was the version of events...who attacked first, who was the aggressor.

Here’s the quote:

“That’s not true,” Arya said loudly. “She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah.” “Joff told us what happened,” the queen said. “You and the butcher boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him.”

And then we have Arya giving her version of events, which IIRC we know is true from Ned’s thoughts as Sansa had confirmed it to him before. So your argument that in Sansa telling the truth she would have endangered her sister’s life does not hold much merit. As seen from the quote above Cersei and Joffrey had distorted the truth to imply Arya and Mycah attacked Joffrey and Joffrey was an innocent victim. And based on this, Cersei was already asking for Arya to be punished. Sansa confirming Arya’s version would have put Joffrey in a worse light and Robert may would then be able to justify not punishing anyone, even Lady.

And for the last time, yes, I do see Sansa’s betrayal of LF as a good thing and using the term “stabbing in the back” to describe the act of a victim finally breaking free of her captor is not a bad thing. I can’t help it if you can’t comprehend that and twisting my words and trying to prove your point doesn’t help your argument.

And since you seem to conveniently forget what I stated, I’ll say it again — Sansa’s behaviour and interactions with LF now is probably an act and at the right moment she will break free. However, I’m not as sure as you that she is fully cognizant of LF’s treachery and motives — she may still trust him to some level. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

14 minutes ago, zandru said:

Ha! The topic slipped off the main list and I went elsewhere... You seem, in this and other posts, to assume the only solution to anything is violence - swords, nukes (!!). What could Sansa have done?

• Not concealed her bruises. Sure, "Joffrey wouldn't like it". But had Sansa appeared in court, or before Cersei, all bloody and black&blue, people would have at least wondered what had happened, what was going on.
• Made allies. Sansa never bothered to talk to her servants or even learn their names because she assumed they'd tell all to Cersei anyway. Unstated was that they were just smallfolk. Had she been friendly, word would have gotten around and bought her good will among the folks who actually made things run in the Red Keep.
• Made allies. A little more communication with the few Kingsguards who were sympathetic. Say, mention how "unknightly" Joffrey's orders were, sadness that he would make them break their vows of knighthood. A little more friendliness with the Hound, who seems to have been increasingly on edge with this new Mad King Joffrey and seemed to be drinking a lot more as a consequence.
• Made allies. Tyrion arrived and greeted her with politeness and sympathy. Later, he literally rescued her. She would have been blind and deaf not to see the degree of enmity between Tyrion and his sister and Joffrey. He was, furthermore, Acting Hand with power to counteract the "King". She should have taken advantage of this most powerful ally.
• Held her head high as a Northern Lady. Start dressing the part - Sansa is supposed to be a whiz with needlework, and we see she has plenty of time on her hands. Wear Northern dress. Do her hair in Northern styles.
• Stop groveling about what a traitor you and the rest of your family are.
• Stop proclaiming your undying love for Wormlips Joffrey.

Arya submitted when necessary, but she never stopped looking for ways to escape, ways to achieve revenge. She "networked". She reconnoitered. She kept herself in shape. None of this was beyond Sansa's capabilities.

Sorry to but I think you are grossly misrepresenting these things. 

AGOT Sansa VI

Quote

"He wants you to smile and smell sweet and be his lady love," the Hound rasped. "He wants to hear you recite all your pretty little words the way the septa taught you. He wants you to love him … and fear him."

After he was gone, Sansa sank back onto the rushes, staring at the wall until two of her bedmaids crept timidly into the chamber. "I will need hot water for my bath, please," she told them, "and perfume, and some powder to hide this bruise." The right side of her face was swollen and beginning to ache, but she knew Joffrey would want her to be beautiful.

The hot water made her think of Winterfell, and she took strength from that. She had not washed since the day her father died, and she was startled at how filthy the water became. Her maids sluiced the blood off her face, scrubbed the dirt from her back, washed her hair and brushed it out until it sprang back in thick auburn curls. Sansa did not speak to them, except to give them commands; they were Lannister servants, not her own, and she did not trust them. When the time came to dress, she chose the green silk gown that she had worn to the tourney. She recalled how gallant Joff had been to her that night at the feast. Perhaps it would make him remember as well, and treat her more gently.

 Here Sansa has taken The Hounds advice on board and is going to get herself cleaned up, and be what Sandor just told her Joffrey wants her to be so that she might have more success in not getting beaten again.  She's hiding them to help protect herself not to conceal them from Cersei. Or anyone else. 

AGOT Sansa VI

Quote

Did he instruct you to hit me if I refused to come?"

"Are you refusing to come, my lady?" The look he gave her was without expression. He did not so much as glance at the bruise he had left her.

When Arys comes for her. she's not hidden this bruise it is on her hand.

ACOK Sansa I

Quote

Knowing that Joffrey would require her to attend the tourney in his honor, Sansa had taken special care with her face and clothes. She wore a gown of pale purple silk and a moonstone hair net that had been a gift from Joffrey. The gown had long sleeves to hide the bruises on her arms. Those were Joffrey's gifts as well. When they told him that Robb had been proclaimed King in the North, his rage had been a fearsome thing, and he had sent Ser Boros to beat her.

Here she is hiding the bruises so that whilst attending the Tourney which she knows she has to go to she hides the bruises and wears the jewels he gave her; so that he's less likely to have her beaten. We can see from the pattern so far that Joffrey has her beaten regularly and unpredictably. She is doing all she can; learning from the advise of the one person she trusts in KL. To not draw his wrath. 

ACOK Sansa II

Quote

Nervously, she rubbed her stomach. The angry purple bruise Ser Meryn had given her had faded to an ugly yellow, but still hurt. His fist had been mailed when he hit her. It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffrey. When she heard that the Imp had sent Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, "I hope the Others get him." The king had not been pleased.

Here she is thumped in the stomach for speaking out in a way which demonstrates her northern loyalties. A thing you think she should have done more of? Don't get me wrong I love when Sansa comes out with these defiant statements but if you are going to criticise her for not doing it more blatantly then I think you should be aware that she's being pummelled in the stomach by a grown man with a mailed this when she does it.  

I'm not sure why you put joffrey wouldn't like it in regards to covering her bruises, but she's covering them at the Hounds advice because Joffrey is more likely to have her beaten if she isn't the pretty maid he wants her to be. It seems to me that you think the beatings which occur at random pace would stop if only she let people see her bruises? That's mental. Joffrey doesn't try to hide the beatings and he is the King. No one is going to put a stop to it. She's covering them when she can in the hope he'll be less inclined to do it again.  Had she appeared at court bruised and bloodied no one would wonder what was going on, Cersei would not have reigned him in, Everyone knows what he was doing, he wasn't making a secret of it. He has her stripped and beaten in the throne room for crying out loud. And by this time he's learnt enough about hitting women to have it done where it won't show. 

ACOK Sansa III

Quote

. Dog, hit her."

Let me beat her!" Ser Dontos shoved forward, tin armor clattering. He was armed with a "morningstar" whose head was a melon. My Florian. She could have kissed him, blotchy skin and broken veins and all. He trotted his broomstick around her, shouting "Traitor, traitor" and whacking her over the head with the melon. Sansa covered herself with her hands, staggering every time the fruit pounded her, her hair sticky by the second blow. People were laughing. The melon flew to pieces. Laugh, Joffrey, she prayed as the juice ran down her face and the front of her blue silk gown. Laugh and be satisfied.

Joffrey did not so much as snigger. "Boros. Meryn."

Ser Meryn Trant seized Dontos by the arm and flung him brusquely away. The red-faced fool went sprawling, broomstick, melon, and all. Ser Boros seized Sansa.

"Leave her face," Joffrey commanded. "I like her pretty."

Boros slammed a fist into Sansa's belly, driving the air out of her. When she doubled over, the knight grabbed her hair and drew his sword, and for one hideous instant she was certain he meant to open her throat. As he laid the flat of the blade across her thighs, she thought her legs might break from the force of the blow. Sansa screamed. Tears welled in her eyes. It will be over soon. She soon lost count of the blows.

"Enough," she heard the Hound rasp.

"No it isn't," the king replied. "Boros, make her naked."

 

You'll note that in this extensive quote Dontos who she reached out to tries to save her from a beating. A beating which takes place after Robb wind a battle. It happens in the throne room in front of multiple people. 

As to made allies. Who? The small folk who Cersei is likely to have abused if she hears of it? She's one who believes in ruling through fear; who exactly in the RK is likely to take risks for Sansa. They are even Cersei's personal servants a lot of the time. Reaching out to them is far too risky. 

The KG, ? you mean the ones who are beating her with mailed fists? Yeah sounds like a plan. Reaching out for what exactly? In the hope they'll pull their punches? some of them do and she hasn't had to ask reach out for that to happen, those who don't I doubt give a shit about her I mean ask yourself what kind of Knight punches a 13 year old girl with full force on the say so of his despotic child king? Is he likely to be swayed by her saying how sad it is that he is forced to do so? 

She has reached out to Sandor, he and she have some deep and meaningfuls nd she did reach out to Dontos in saving him    she was incrediblebly brave when she took nothing but a dinner knife and went to the gods wood to reach out to whoever sent the note. She reached out to the Tyrells, and accepted an offer despite it meaning marrying a stranger she's never met, so I'd call that making an active choice, taking risks, making allies.  

As for Tyrion, Nope. The first thing he says to her upon returning to KL is that he's going to make her Lady Mother pay for kidnapping him, and a lot more people too besides will pay for it. I paraphrase but will happily pull the quote should you want it. He stops the beatings and yes that's lovely of him, but he is her enemy, he is a Lannister and he has been forced upon her, once she is married she has an active plan of escape, one which she pursues and yes she keeps the Lannister who wants to have sex with her and use her to claim her ancestral seat at arms length whilst she awaits that plans fruition. Reaching out to Tyrion was never an option. Despite his relationship with his sister and nephew she'd be a fool to trust him. He doesn't do a thing to help her escape KL. And that is her goal, he could if he wanted to tell Tywin he'll be removing his bride to CR where he could shield her from his family. But nope. He keeps her in KL. Personally I'd argue he has no option. But then this is because I have a reasonable grasp upon what an individual in circumstances beyond their control can and can not achieve. 

 Why do you think she's wearing southron style clothes? Until her marriage to Tyrion she is wearing the clothes she brought with her from WF, we know because she tells us they are all getting too tight as she is maturing. And post the wedding to Tyrion she's wearing what Cersei commissioned for her but making a few bits herself. we do not know what style they are nor how she wears her hair. I think you are allowing the show to colour your perception here. 

She absolutely did stop proclaiming her undying love

AGOT Sansa VI

Quote

His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. "I hate you," she whispered.

note that is her in AGOT pretty early on if you ask me. 

 

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Ha! The topic slipped off the main list and I went elsewhere... You seem, in this and other posts, to assume the only solution to anything is violence - swords, nukes (!!). What could Sansa have done?

• Not concealed her bruises. Sure, "Joffrey wouldn't like it". But had Sansa appeared in court, or before Cersei, all bloody and black&blue, people would have at least wondered what had happened, what was going on.
• Made allies. Sansa never bothered to talk to her servants or even learn their names because she assumed they'd tell all to Cersei anyway. Unstated was that they were just smallfolk. Had she been friendly, word would have gotten around and bought her good will among the folks who actually made things run in the Red Keep.
• Made allies. A little more communication with the few Kingsguards who were sympathetic. Say, mention how "unknightly" Joffrey's orders were, sadness that he would make them break their vows of knighthood. A little more friendliness with the Hound, who seems to have been increasingly on edge with this new Mad King Joffrey and seemed to be drinking a lot more as a consequence.
• Made allies. Tyrion arrived and greeted her with politeness and sympathy. Later, he literally rescued her. She would have been blind and deaf not to see the degree of enmity between Tyrion and his sister and Joffrey. He was, furthermore, Acting Hand with power to counteract the "King". She should have taken advantage of this most powerful ally.
• Held her head high as a Northern Lady. Start dressing the part - Sansa is supposed to be a whiz with needlework, and we see she has plenty of time on her hands. Wear Northern dress. Do her hair in Northern styles.
• Stop groveling about what a traitor you and the rest of your family are.
• Stop proclaiming your undying love for Wormlips Joffrey.

Arya submitted when necessary, but she never stopped looking for ways to escape, ways to achieve revenge. She "networked". She reconnoitered. She kept herself in shape. None of this was beyond Sansa's capabilities.

I agree with all of this, especially her lack of trying to make any allies, she gave up before she started.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Stating that people who disagree with your opinion of a character does not fully comprehend the story as you do is not “engaging intellectually” with them. And yes, I still dispute your interpretation that people dislike Sansa because of their lack of understanding of the character. In my first post I explained why people disliked  Sansa in the first book — because she was written as such by the author. In subsequent books, GRRM decided to show the character’s growth and realization of her follies and hence people began to like and appreciate the character more. As simple as that. And as to you harping on the themes within her story — the theme of AGOT Sansa was that she was a sheltered, naive, spoiled, vain, self-centered, dishonest, disloyal (to her family) person as compared to her little sister, who is loyal, compassionate, empathetic (to people less fortunate than her), and honest. And empathizing with a character goes a long way in understanding a character. And if you don’t know that basic tenet of storytelling, there’s no point having this debate. 

I'll tell you what not engaging intellectually is, It is responding to a post in a way which does not address the issues the person was talking about. You explained why you think people dislike AGOT Sansa and that does not illustrate that I was wrong to say they don't understand her character or the themes of her story. It only Illustrates that you think they Dislike her n the first book because of those specific incidents. 

There is character growth in AGOT. He doesn't just suddenly start writing her as a believable human character in ACOK  And I'd invite you to begin looking at her outside of being there just to showArya in a positive light. You're making an attempt at character analysis here thank you. But I would like to persuade you to go deeper. And think about her story individually not as a foil to Arya which GRRM said she started out as; and that sheis now one of the Big 6.ie: has her own story with as rich a thematic depth as the others. A story which begins in book 1 and runs throughout.

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

I’ll admit Mycah would probably have been killed no matter what although it doesn’t state anywhere in the book that he was already dead when Sansa was asked to tell the truth. Yes, Sandor was already out hunting the boy and he would have killed him whatever the outcome.

Do you think maybe the Hound had a mobile and Cersei would send her dog a quick text to say don't kill the butchers boy Sansa has testified and Joff was being a prick.  But seriously I'm glad you are understanding this was never something her testimony could effect. 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

 As to Lady’s death, we don’t know how Robert would have reacted if Sansa had corroborated Arya’s story. He already was looking for a reason to spare Ned and his children. Confirming that Joffrey was the initial aggressor would perhaps have given him a reason to fully silence Cersei. We just don’t know and that’s the point.  

Robert was a complete waste of space in that court. Cersei was baying for Arya's arm! And frankly the author needs a way to rid both girls of their wolves on the way to KL. Neither can realistically take them with them and have their story lines work out as author intends

 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Well, Cersei already knew that Arya beat and humiliated Joffrey, that wasn’t in dispute. Why for crying out loud, Arya admitted to it. What was being disputed was the version of events...who attacked first, who was the aggressor.

And how would Sansa recounting these events in vivid detail help chill Cersei out? Cersei has her version of events already, whatever Joff told her. Neither girl can tell the truth about precious Joff and keep in her good graces. Arya was not aware enough to realise that at 9, fair enough no 9 year old is. Sansa at 11 was a bit more savvy. 

 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

And then we have Arya giving her version of events, which IIRC we know is true from Ned’s thoughts as Sansa had confirmed it to him before. So your argument that in Sansa telling the truth she would have endangered her sister’s life does not hold much merit. As seen from the quote above Cersei and Joffrey had distorted the truth to imply Arya and Mycah attacked Joffrey and Joffrey was an innocent victim. And based on this, Cersei was already asking for Arya to be punished. Sansa confirming Arya’s version would have put Joffrey in a worse light and Robert may would then be able to justify not punishing anyone, even Lady.

Yes Ned the ADULT knew what happened and did nothing. He did not take his girls and return to WF. He did not break the betrothal, he tried to get Robert to be sensible but Robert did not intervene. For all we know he could have told her to say she doesn't recall. It is after all the diplomatic thing to do. If Cersei was already asking for Arya to be punished based upon her biased version from Joff how is Sansa humiliating her and Joff by saying no his version is false going to help either girl or Lady?  If you think Robert was going to step in other than over Arya's arm then I don't know what to say. The whole scene is about how Robert is a drunk who can't be arsed to actual rule and allows the Lannisters free reign. 

 

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

And for the last time, yes, I do see Sansa’s betrayal of LF as a good thing and using the term “stabbing in the back” to describe the act of a victim finally breaking free of her captor is not a bad thing. I can’t help it if you can’t comprehend that and twisting my words and trying to prove your point doesn’t help your argument.

And since you seem to conveniently forget what I stated, I’ll say it again — Sansa’s behaviour and interactions with LF now is probably an act and at the right moment she will break free. However, I’m not as sure as you that she is fully cognizant of LF’s treachery and motives — she may still trust him to some level. 

A victim breaking free of their captor is not stabbing them in the back.  I'm not trying to twist your words and never was. You picked a terrible phrase to convey what you meant. This caused me to interpret it in a way you never intended. 

This was your original post

On 07/05/2018 at 11:35 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The only issue I have is her resignation to her fate and her trust in Littlefinger. She knows Littlefinger’s darkest secrets, yet as Alayne, she pretends to herself that he knows best and is looking out for their interests. Perhaps this is the calm before the storm and she will stab LF in the back at the opportune moment. But to me there’s also a bit of Stockholm syndrome with Sansa’s and LF’s dynamics... he’s become the mentor/father figure in her life and she is slowly becoming an accomplice in his crimes and dealings. We’ll just have to wait and see what happens in Winds.

She isn't resigned to her fate she is actively participating in a plan to return her to WF. She doesn't trust LF she is conflicted over him and reminds herself often that he is not to be trusted fully. She knows some of his darkest secrets. That he killed Lysa to stop her killing her, that he incited Lysa to kill Jon Arryn yes. But she doesn't yet know his full crimes. That's coming in TWOW I think. And then yes, she'll act against him. She isn't pretending that he knows best and is looking out for their interests. She knows he desires her, and is willing to help her get back to WF so long as she goes along with his plans, she also knows that currently he is her best option as the only other one would be reveal herself and hope no one takes her to Cersei for the reward. She contemplates trusting others such as Yhon Royce but is afraid that doing so might be too risky. I suspect she's going to gauge the nobles as she meets them at the winged knights tourney and decide how to act from there. But the only glimpse we've had of that so far is in TWOW Alayne I. Prior to this she was isolated up the Giants Lance with the constant reminder that the Moon Door or the Sky Cells might feature in her future if she pisses LF off by failing to adhere to his instructions.t h

[teej6]

6 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You are deliberately misrepresenting what I said.  I'm not sure why you chose my post to respond to if you only wanted to say the reasons why people don't like her in book one are X & Y. As my post was not about book one. It was about the entire overall series and the way people perceive her or don't as is often the case. 

And now you're finally offering some analysis. Well done.  This is a VERY simplified account of one element of the characters in book one. Well done. Would you like to explore deeper themes? Or is this all you think there is to it? 

Do you think maybe the Hound had a mobile and Cersei would send her dog a quick text to say don't kill the butchers boy Sansa has testified and Joff was being a prick.  But seriously I'm glad you are understanding this was never something her testimony could effect. 

Robert was a complete waste of space in that court. Cersei was baying for Arya's arm! And frankly the author needs a way to rid both girls of their wolves on the way to KL. Neither can realistically take them with them and have their story lines work out as author intends

 

And how would Sansa recounting these events in vivid detail help chill Cersei out? Cersei has her version of events already, whatever Joff told her. Neither girl can tell the truth about precious Joff and keep in her good graces. Arya was not aware enough to realise that at 9, fair enough no 9 year old is. Sansa at 11 was a bit more savvy. 

 

Yes Ned the ADULT knew what happened and did nothing. He did not take his girls and return to WF. He did not break the betrothal, he tried to get Robert to be sensible but Robert did not intervene. For all we know he could have told her to say she doesn't recall. It is after all the diplomatic thing to do. If Cersei was already asking for Arya to be punished based upon her biased version from Joff how is Sansa humiliating her and Joff by saying no his version is false going to help either girl or Lady?  If you think Robert was going to step in other than over Arya's arm then I don't know what to say. The whole scene is about how Robert is a drunk who can't be arsed to actual rule and allows the Lannisters free reign. 

 

A victim breaking free of their captor is not stabbing them in the back.  I'm not trying to twist your words and never was. You picked a terrible phrase to convey what you meant. This caused me to interpret it in a way you never intended. 

This was your original post

She isn't resigned to her fate she is actively participating in a plan to return her to WF. She doesn't trust LF she is conflicted over him and reminds herself often that he is not to be trusted fully. She knows some of his darkest secrets. That he killed Lysa to stop her killing her, that he incited Lysa to kill Jon Arryn yes. But she doesn't yet know his full crimes. That's coming in TWOW I think. And then yes, she'll act against him. She isn't pretending that he knows best and is looking out for their interests. She knows he desires her, and is willing to help her get back to WF so long as she goes along with his plans, she also knows that currently he is her best option as the only other one would be reveal herself and hope no one takes her to Cersei for the reward. She contemplates trusting others such as Yhon Royce but is afraid that doing so might be too risky. I suspect she's going to gauge the nobles as she meets them at the winged knights tourney and decide how to act from there. But the only glimpse we've had of that so far is in TWOW Alayne I. Prior to this she was isolated up the Giants Lance with the constant reminder that the Moon Door or the Sky Cells might feature in her future if she pisses LF off by failing to adhere to his instructions.

In regards to the bolded section, I offered the very same reasons (or analysis as you claim) in my first response to you. Again, I question your comprehension skills for not seeing/understanding this from the get go and I’m tired of repeating the same thing over and over again with you. And I don’t know what the hell you mean by “deeper themes”. If it makes you feel smarter repeating that phrase, go ahead. I gave you Sansa’s arc as I see it in AGOT and that is how many others view her character as well in the first book. And that is not due to a lack of understanding of the character, it’s simply because that’s how the character is perceived by many. You can disagree with that interpretation but belittling others interpretation or understanding is what you did, and what I took issue with.

And as to your last para, again I have trouble understanding you. In my initial post, I stated that I find Sansa’s resignation to her fate and trust in LF disturbing but that I also consider the possibility that Sansa is biding her time and playing LF and learning from him and will eventually defeat him at his own game. However, I’m not certain of this outcome as much as her hardcore fans are. If that happened, that would be a nice outcome for character arc — the apprentice becoming the master. In my initial post, I used the term backstabbing to describe Sansa’s betrayal of LF (which btw is a good progression in Sansa’s arc, most everyone will agree that Sansa backstabbing LF is a hurray moment), which somehow in your convoluted reasoning you interpreted as hypocrisy. And on and on we went with this pointless debate. So ending this discussion... don’t see any point in rehashing this mess over and over again.