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Why do people hate Sansa?


manchester_babe

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5 minutes ago, teej6 said:

In regards to the bolded section, I offered the very same reasons (or analysis as you claim) in my first response to you. Again, I question your comprehension skills for not seeing/understanding this from the get go and I’m tired of repeating the same thing over and over again with you. And I don’t know what the hell you mean by “deeper themes”. If it makes you feel smarter repeating that phrase, go ahead. I gave you Sansa’s arc as I see it in AGOT and that is how many others view her character as well in the first book. And that is not due to a lack of understanding of the character, it’s simply because that’s how the character is perceived by many. You can disagree with that interpretation but belittling others interpretation or understanding is what you did, and what I took issue with.

 

I'm really sorry, but I went back in and changed that section quite extensively as I felt I was being unfair to you. 

I would like to invite you again to discuss these aspects of the story in depth. I know you've been on the boards for a while now so I find it saddens me that you haven't yet read enough to understand what the general conscientious is about Sansa's story. Amongst those who don't simply hate her. 

I think discussing her in just the first book is reductive. No other character is looked at in such a limited fashion. And it certainly isn't useful when discussing a character as a whole to focus in on one book  is essentially what you have done here and You are right this is why many dislike her.

But I'd argue the reason why they dislike her for these two incidents is taht they have formed an opinion  which they can not let go of and they fail to see the characters growth and indeed anything positive at all. There is a story running throughout her chapters which is hers alone. And which explores such themes as autonomy, patriarchy, sexuality, love, independence, family, identity, societal expectations, the very concept of nobility and being a Lady. Gosh I could go on there are tons. 

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And as to your last para, again I have trouble understanding you. In my initial post, I stated that I find Sansa’s resignation to her fate and trust in LF disturbing but that I also consider the possibility that Sansa is biding her time and playing LF and learning from him and will eventually defeat him at his own game. However, I’m not certain of this outcome as much as her hardcore fans are. If that happened, that would be a nice outcome for character arc — the apprentice becoming the master. In my initial post, I used the term backstabbing to describe Sansa’s betrayal of LF (which btw is a good progression in Sansa’s arc, most everyone will agree that Sansa backstabbing LF is a hurray moment), which somehow in your convoluted reasoning you interpreted as hypocrisy. And on and on we went with this pointless debate. So ending this discussion... don’t see any point in rehashing this mess over and over again.

Do you ever wonder why they are so certain? Could it be because we have spent stupid amounts of time examining the themes in her story, looking at the foreshadowing and clues as to what might happen, picking apart her relationships, and actions and how they echo other texts which GRRM admires, or hi sown earlier works. Looking at it in terms of classic literature and story telling techniques. 

You chose very poorly in your wording. I'm going to ask you and I mean this in a respectful and understanding way. Is English not your first language? Because it is a phrase which is used as a negative. And it infers betrayal, treachery, etc. Breaking away from the control of someone who is using you and grooming you is not backstabbing it is escape. Now if you still don't understand why the phrasing in your original post implied hypocrisy I do not know what else to say. 

It is not convoluted to take the meaning of a common idiom to be it's usual one. 

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On October 22, 2017 at 6:15 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why do people hate Sansa Stark? 

I don't hate the Starks, but I think Arya is boring, but I also don't like it when readers are not being true to the story and playing favorites. I think Sansa was a bit bratty in the first book, iifc, by the end she starts to see how wrong she was. By the second book starts she has changed and doesn't trust Joffery and Cersei. She only wants Cersei around because Joffery hurts her less when his mother is around. Sansa wants to not die and go home. 

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27 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm really sorry, but I went back in and changed that section quite extensively as I felt I was being unfair to you. 

I would like to invite you again to discuss these aspects of the story in depth. I know you've been on the boards for a while now so I find it saddens me that you haven't yet read enough to understand what the general conscientious is about Sansa's story. Amongst those who don't simply hate her. 

I think discussing her in just the first book is reductive. No other character is looked at in such a limited fashion. And it certainly isn't useful when discussing a character as a whole to focus in on one book  is essentially what you have done here and You are right this is why many dislike her.

But I'd argue the reason why they dislike her for these two incidents is taht they have formed an opinion  which they can not let go of and they fail to see the characters growth and indeed anything positive at all. There is a story running throughout her chapters which is hers alone. And which explores such themes as autonomy, patriarchy, sexuality, love, independence, family, identity, societal expectations, the very concept of nobility and being a Lady. Gosh I could go on there are tons. 

Do you ever wonder why they are so certain? Could it be because we have spent stupid amounts of time examining the themes in her story, looking at the foreshadowing and clues as to what might happen, picking apart her relationships, and actions and how they echo other texts which GRRM admires, or hi sown earlier works. Looking at it in terms of classic literature and story telling techniques. 

You chose very poorly in your wording. I'm going to ask you and I mean this in a respectful and understanding way. Is English not your first language? Because it is a phrase which is used as a negative. And it infers betrayal, treachery, etc. Breaking away from the control of someone who is using you and grooming you is not backstabbing it is escape. Now if you still don't understand why the phrasing in your original post implied hypocrisy I do not know what else to say. 

It is not convoluted to take the meaning of a common idiom to be it's usual one. 

English is my first language. Nice try at being snide! I don’t care if backstabbing has a negative connotation, the point is (which you seem not to understand or don’t want to as that would mean conceding your whole argument was wrong) no one would see/read Sansa backstabbing LF as a flaw in her character. In fact, most everyone would appreciate the character better if that were to happen.

As to the rest of your post, I see no point taking this discussion any further as you keep misinterpreting (I suspect English isn’t your first language :P) my posts and rewording it in your responses to suit your narrative. 

And trust me, I don’t need your validation or there’s no need to be sad, I’ve been discussing Sansa’s arc with people much more well versed and savvy than you and I’ve still maintained that Sansa in the first book was intentionally written by the author to be dislikable. And I don’t know if you understood it (inspite of my repeated statements), I do not dislike Sansa... was just providing a rationale for the dislike people feel towards her. I disliked her in the first book as a character, but in subsequent books, the character has grown on me.

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12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

English is my first language. Nice try at being snide! I don’t care if backstabbing has a negative connotation, the point is (which you seem not to understand or don’t want to as that would mean conceding your whole argument was wrong) no one would see/read Sansa backstabbing LF as a flaw in her character. In fact, most everyone would appreciate the character better if that were to happen.

As to the rest of your post, I see no point taking this discussion any further as you keep misinterpreting (I suspect English isn’t your first language :P) my posts and rewording it in your responses to suit your narrative. 

And trust me, I don’t need your validation or there’s no need to be sad, I’ve been discussing Sansa’s arc with people much more well versed and savvy than you and I’ve still maintained that Sansa in the first book was intentionally written by the author to be dislikable. And I don’t know if you understood it (inspite of my repeated statements), I do not dislike Sansa... was just providing a rationale for the dislike people feel towards her. I disliked her in the first book as a character, but in subsequent books, the character has grown on me.

I really was not being snide. 

That is why I framed my question is such a gentle way. 

It will happen. I spend a lot of time discussing how Sansa will turn on him and be his downfall. But using the phrase back stabbing made you sound hypocritical. And you have had to use a lot of words to try to explain what you truly meant. It was a poor choice of phrase and it caused you to be misunderstood.  I don't see why you can't just say, Yeah my bad that wasn't how I meant it. But instead decide I am being convoluted in my understanding of the phrase, when my understanding was in line with the common meaning.

If I keep misinterpreting your posts maybe you should look at why? what language are you using or misusing that is causing me to not understand you? 

It was intentional, I never disputed that but you reduced all the ways Sansa is disliked to being based solely on AGOT and dismissed my proposal that this is because they don't consider her character growth or the themes within her story when they form that opinion.

You proved me right if anything as you said. Yup all about the way she is presented initially; and thus caused by not understanding her character as a whole. 

If you discuss Sansa so much with all these much more intelligent people I'm very surprised that you didn't understand what I meant by inner themes of her story. As so much of the intellectual discussion of Sansa focuses on the themes within her story arc.  

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4 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I really was not being snide. 

That is why I framed my question is such a gentle way. 

It will happen. I spend a lot of time discussing how Sansa will turn on him and be his downfall. But using the phrase back stabbing made you sound hypocritical. And you have had to use a lot of words to try to explain what you truly meant. It was a poor choice of phrase and it caused you to be misunderstood.  I don't see why you can't just say, Yeah my bad that wasn't how I meant it. But instead decide I am being convoluted in my understanding of the phrase, when my understanding was in line with the common meaning.

If I keep misinterpreting your posts maybe you should look at why? what language are you using or misusing that is causing me to not understand you? 

It was intentional, I never disputed that but you reduced all the ways Sansa is disliked to being based solely on AGOT and dismissed my proposal that this is because they don't consider her character growth or the themes within her story when they form that opinion.

You proved me right if anything as you said. Yup all about the way she is presented initially; and thus caused by not understanding her character as a whole. 

If you discuss Sansa so much with all these much more intelligent people I'm very surprised that you didn't understand what I meant by inner themes of her story. As so much of the intellectual discussion of Sansa focuses on the themes within her story arc.  

Okay let’s go over this one more time. I said Sansa will backstab LF and if that were to happen that would be great. You seem to have latched onto the word backstab and ran with it. You seem to have mistakenly taken the word out of context in your initial response and instead of admitting your error, you subsequently started, rather poorly, attempting to justify your initial mistake. No one (but you) would take my initial statement of Sansa backstabbing LF as anything but a positive. 

As for you misinterpreting my posts, I blame that solely on your lack of comprehension and not on any of my posts. I was quite clear in what I meant in my statements.

I took issue with your constant use of “inner themes” as it sounded more like a juvenile attempt at sounding smart. 

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40 minutes ago, teej6 said:

English is my first language. Nice try at being snide! I

End it else you might find yourself in timeout ----  been there,  I got involved in the bait and switch before. Three days detention because I got loud and rowdy.

 

21 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It was intentional, I never disputed that but you reduced all the ways Sansa is disliked to being based solely on AGOT and dismissed my proposal that this is because they don't consider her character growth or the themes within her story when they form that opinion.

I would venture to say Sansa is disliked by a percentage of the readership because of the way Sansa was written. Her protected life under her father led her to believe that her upbringing and lady courtesies would help her. It didn't happen. Her prince came. She was betrothed to her prince. The prince gave the order to behead Eddard.

With King Bob and Eddard dead Sansa has no protection. Yes, Sansa is powerless and dependent. You keep typing about her growth as a human being and character. She hasn't grown yet. She still has the "someday my prince will come" mentality.

LF is supposedly gonna marry Sansa Stark Lannister to Harry the Heir and give Sansa WF. Sansa believes it.

Yes, Sansa is powerless and wants to survive. The kid has been dealt a bad hand trying to do the best she can with what is available. Frankly, I am of the opinion that the author has more trouble and trials in store for young Sansa.

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3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

End it else you might find yourself in timeout ----  been there,  I got involved in the bait and switch before. Three days detention because I got loud and rowdy.

I hear you. Thanks!

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The reasons already given answered the question of "why do people hate Sansa?" comprehensively.  I want to add another reason with more subtlety.  IMO, Sansa suffers in comparison to the other main characters.  Daenerys is fighting the slavers to help better the future for millions.  Stannis defended the wall against savages.  While I don't like Jon, there is value in helping Ser Piggy.  The readers see the value in what these people do.  I disagree with Arya's revenge goal and I don't like Arya.  But there are those readers who find value in what that little murderer does, even if I don't.  Sansa continues to do what she does, look out for Sansa.  It's always about Sansa to Sansa.  That is another reason why I find Sansa boring.

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11 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

 Sansa continues to do what she does, look out for Sansa.  It's always about Sansa to Sansa.  That is another reason why I find Sansa boring.

And that's just what we need, another Cersei. 

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5 hours ago, zandru said:

Ha! The topic slipped off the main list and I went elsewhere... You seem, in this and other posts, to assume the only solution to anything is violence - swords, nukes (!!). What could Sansa have done?

  • Not concealed her bruises. Sure, "Joffrey wouldn't like it". But had Sansa appeared in court, or before Cersei, all bloody and black&blue, people would have at least wondered what had happened, what was going on.
  • Made allies. Sansa never bothered to talk to her servants or even learn their names because she assumed they'd tell all to Cersei anyway. Unstated was that they were just smallfolk. Had she been friendly, word would have gotten around and bought her good will among the folks who actually made things run in the Red Keep.
  • Made allies. A little more communication with the few Kingsguards who were sympathetic. Say, mention how "unknightly" Joffrey's orders were, sadness that he would make them break their vows of knighthood. A little more friendliness with the Hound, who seems to have been increasingly on edge with this new Mad King Joffrey and seemed to be drinking a lot more as a consequence.
  • Made allies. Tyrion arrived and greeted her with politeness and sympathy. Later, he literally rescued her. She would have been blind and deaf not to see the degree of enmity between Tyrion and his sister and Joffrey. He was, furthermore, Acting Hand with power to counteract the "King". She should have taken advantage of this most powerful ally.
  • Held her head high as a Northern Lady. Start dressing the part - Sansa is supposed to be a whiz with needlework, and we see she has plenty of time on her hands. Wear Northern dress. Do her hair in Northern styles.
  • Stop groveling about what a traitor you and the rest of your family are.
  • Stop proclaiming your undying love for Wormlips Joffrey.

Arya submitted when necessary, but she never stopped looking for ways to escape, ways to achieve revenge. She "networked". She reconnoitered. She kept herself in shape. None of this was beyond Sansa's capabilities.

The one about not looking for help among the small folk is probably part of her mother rubbing off on her. Sansa doesn't hobnob with the smallfolk, as Arya does with Mycah. In AGOT, Catelyn refers to the small folk of Riverrun as "useless mouths". One could say that Sansa's been trained to look down on them.

On the Kingsguard: Sansa can't order them around, as they're sworn to the King. The only ones who were close to nice to her were the Hound (and he's Joffrey's sworn shield, so she doesn't really trust him) and Ser Arys, who is reluctant to hit her and tries to hit her as lightly as he can. Ser Arys goes to Dorne. Now she's down to one.

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Not everyone sees a huge amount of character growth.  She is, the last time we saw her, continuing to dutifully play her role as LF lays it out for her, continuing to rationalize the drugging of her cousins and other of LF actions. 

Also worth remembering that when Sansa first became a prisoner, her family still ruled the North, the Riverlands and the Vale....she seems a good candidate to enlist someone to help her escape....perhaps someone also wronged by the Lannisters/Joff....in return for a huge reward, which up until the RW, she would have been able to promise and deliver very credibly.

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I don’t really like Sansa, but I think she gets a lot of unfair criticism for a number of specific things.

Tyrion: well, really, except for refusing to kneel for the cloaking, which he still resented some time later and which she, iirc, actually regretted, she seems to appreciate that he’s the only Lannister who’s been decent to her, she did do her best to be a dutiful wife (how many 13yo girls wed to a man they don’t know, understand, and aren’t attracted to would make any effort at all?), she defended criticism against him at least to herself when circumstances really didn’t permit her to speak out (as with Lysa), and she seems to me to realize that getting out of the marriage is not worth his death. And all this while he isn’t particularly nice to her—he is kind and patient in an overarching philosophical way, yes, but he is often quite sarcastic in their conversation for no very good reason—and she doesn’t seem to brood much over that, which is extremely tolerant for a kid her age.

Parroting the traitor stuff after Ned was taken prisoner: what else could she have possibly done at that point? It’s not like everyone up North didn’t immediately understand that Cersei dictated her letter, and it’s not like anyone in the south actually believed she meant a word of it, especially after Ned was executed. She didn’t invest much effort into convincing anyone, either; she might have taken a few less beatings if she had.

Colluding with Littlefinger to poison Sweetrobin: the particular situation when she insisted on using sweet sleep against the maester’s advice really was a case of the lesser of two evils, and not drugging him would have immediately put his life at risk. He was AWFUL that day, as well, and the extra frustration cannot have made the decision any easier.

 

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9 hours ago, zandru said:

Ha! The topic slipped off the main list and I went elsewhere... You seem, in this and other posts, to assume the only solution to anything is violence - swords, nukes (!!). What could Sansa have done?

  • Not concealed her bruises. Sure, "Joffrey wouldn't like it". But had Sansa appeared in court, or before Cersei, all bloody and black&blue, people would have at least wondered what had happened, what was going on.
  • Made allies. Sansa never bothered to talk to her servants or even learn their names because she assumed they'd tell all to Cersei anyway. Unstated was that they were just smallfolk. Had she been friendly, word would have gotten around and bought her good will among the folks who actually made things run in the Red Keep.
  • Made allies. A little more communication with the few Kingsguards who were sympathetic. Say, mention how "unknightly" Joffrey's orders were, sadness that he would make them break their vows of knighthood. A little more friendliness with the Hound, who seems to have been increasingly on edge with this new Mad King Joffrey and seemed to be drinking a lot more as a consequence.
  • Made allies. Tyrion arrived and greeted her with politeness and sympathy. Later, he literally rescued her. She would have been blind and deaf not to see the degree of enmity between Tyrion and his sister and Joffrey. He was, furthermore, Acting Hand with power to counteract the "King". She should have taken advantage of this most powerful ally.
  • Held her head high as a Northern Lady. Start dressing the part - Sansa is supposed to be a whiz with needlework, and we see she has plenty of time on her hands. Wear Northern dress. Do her hair in Northern styles.
  • Stop groveling about what a traitor you and the rest of your family are.
  • Stop proclaiming your undying love for Wormlips Joffrey.

Arya submitted when necessary, but she never stopped looking for ways to escape, ways to achieve revenge. She "networked". She reconnoitered. She kept herself in shape. None of this was beyond Sansa's capabilities.

Okay, I certainly don't consider violence the only way or even the best way to achieve conflict resolution!

However, I agree with some of what you say.  Still I find that I like both Sansa and Arya but respecting one more than the other oftentimes implies identifying with one more than the other in real life.  Sansa was stupid and naive in the beginning, the Lady incident yes, and delusional with what she thought was her prefect future ahead of her.  Now, once Ned was executed I reckon, had Arya not fled (with help, not help that she asked for, but help nonetheless) she would have surely followed him to the grave.

Yes, I find unrealistic that anyone believed that tirade "Joffrey's my true love..." in that I could not agree more.  Not because I consider it immoral or false to lie in the circumstances but because no - one could seriously believe it!!!  In a way parroting that may have served the purpose that showing her bruises etc would have done.  So courtiers and servants alike were aware; servants especially, after all she was badly bruised etc (plus stating what silly Cersei wanted her to do; and she was a hostage).  Now, Cersei should have been more aware that these very fake courtesies were a clear red flag.  I guess she was too arrogant to think it would matter either way.  Yes, she was a snob to begin with and also mistrusted her maids for a time  (can you blame her?) but enough people new and failed to act because with a King like that their head was probably next and she was not like to advance them in politics as a traitor's daughter.  The servants could have just simply lost their heads...  okay she may have stumbled about an extremelly brave and resourceful one but it would have had to be extremely resourceful for if they stayed in the Keep both her and servant on the block lol.

Tyrion did challenge Joffrey indeed and he is one of the few people who could do so.  Sandor was sympathetic and when drunk and in despair he offered to take her away but she was too scared.  So apart from them two, well LF and  Dontos.  LF certainly for his own ends.  So in the end she did show agency by going off only to fall into a trap she was not willing to see the possibility of.

I actually think that the act about "traitors's daughter/I love Joffrey etc" was much more tell-telling than shutting up about it could be; people knew... they just didn't want to act.  I mean it is not like she got her beaten up in private!  I think she got about as much help as she could have had.  Sadly she was naive and chose wrongly.  Then again, had she been in KL when Tyrion was arrested, it is likely she would have been executed.   Now, she couldn't possibly know that at the time.

As for the Kingsguard the only ones with the possible opportunity or courage would have been Barristan Selmy, who had been fired, or Sandor, who left in disgrace with the wildfire cock-up and offer to take her.  Now Jaime, mayhaps, or an exchange of prisoners or something but at the time he was her mother's prisoner.

As for the servants, had she been in WF, a hell of a lot more likely due to the loyalty Northerners tend to have to Starks, in KL, who would risk their lives for a girl they had just met who was nothing to them, even if they felt compassion.  Not everyone, noble or peasant is happy to die a hero for someone they hardly knew!  Maybe that is the moral tale of her chivalry stories not being accurate...

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2 hours ago, Therae said:

I don’t really like Sansa, but I think she gets a lot of unfair criticism for a number of specific things.

Tyrion: well, really, except for refusing to kneel for the cloaking, which he still resented some time later and which she, iirc, actually regretted, she seems to appreciate that he’s the only Lannister who’s been decent to her, she did do her best to be a dutiful wife (how many 13yo girls wed to a man they don’t know, understand, and aren’t attracted to would make any effort at all?), she defended criticism against him at least to herself when circumstances really didn’t permit her to speak out (as with Lysa), and she seems to me to realize that getting out of the marriage is not worth his death. And all this while he isn’t particularly nice to her—he is kind and patient in an overarching philosophical way, yes, but he is often quite sarcastic in their conversation for no very good reason—and she doesn’t seem to brood much over that, which is extremely tolerant for a kid her age.

Parroting the traitor stuff after Ned was taken prisoner: what else could she have possibly done at that point? It’s not like everyone up North didn’t immediately understand that Cersei dictated her letter, and it’s not like anyone in the south actually believed she meant a word of it, especially after Ned was executed. She didn’t invest much effort into convincing anyone, either; she might have taken a few less beatings if she had.

Colluding with Littlefinger to poison Sweetrobin: the particular situation when she insisted on using sweet sleep against the maester’s advice really was a case of the lesser of two evils, and not drugging him would have immediately put his life at risk. He was AWFUL that day, as well, and the extra frustration cannot have made the decision any easier.

 

I'm not going to go into Tyrion/Sansa because they are both complex and I believe is a topic in itself.  His sarcasm is his self-defence mechanism, just as courtesy is hers and she was extremely passive-aggressive with him (much more so than with his family whom she feared more) but I can totally understand why and her mistrust of him.  By comparison the Hound was more sarcastic to her than Tyrion but I do not believe, at that stage, either of them meant her harm.  

Couldn't agree more with the second paragraph.  No-one believed that!  Cersei should have been more astute and put an end to that, for it showed that Sansa indeed was being forced to say things lol

I think that scene stills will see development in the books.  Yes, she needed to calm Robin down and that is okay.  I think George wants to tentatively make us thing she is a potential murderer, or happy to go along with LF.  My strong wager is that we may see something very different indeed.  I think that scene served the sole purpose of showing us, the readers, and make us suspect Sansa for suspense in one stroke, that someone is poisoning him slowly...

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On 5/4/2018 at 7:32 PM, Darksnider05 said:

Sansa has other options in House Royce she's been actively choosing Petyr for a while.  But the text is clear about her feelings on SweetRobin her kin.

The text is one of the most obscure and contradictory in the whole story.  One moment she wants to be "dutiful daughter" the next she remembers what LF did; then her ego tells her and "her father" to try and seduce Harry, the next she hopes he falls of a horse and remembers Tyrion in a nice light.  The next, she knows where the food is but says nothing to no-one... One moment she appears in line with allowing Petyr to slowly poison Robin, the next she cares for him... Something is brewing here, including her friendship with Myranda and George is giving us conflicting thoughts on purpose.  Could be wrong but I would wager a fair bit!

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1 minute ago, Morgana Lannister said:

The text is one of the most obscure and contradictory in the whole story.  One moment she wants to be "dutiful daughter" the next she remembers what LF did; then her ego tells her and "her father" to try and seduce Harry, the next she hopes he falls of a horse and remembers Tyrion in a nice light.  The next, she knows where the food is but says nothing to no-one...  Something is brewing here, including her friendship with Myranda and George is giving us conflicting thoughts on purpose.  Could be wrong but I would wager a fair bit!

So when does she become narrator and Alayne Durden?

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2 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Who is Alayne Durden?  Excuse my illiteracy but not familiar...  Besides, she does not need to become narrator to blur up the plot...

 

I made that up, as a shout-out to Fight Club.

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