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Why do people hate Sansa?


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On 10/23/2017 at 8:30 PM, zandru said:

This is cool! Analyzing Sansa's role in terms of pro (aka scripted) wrestling! Your points are good; Sansa's not particularly competent at anything other than doing as told (even her daring escape was set up and scheduled for her) and looking pretty and/or pouty. As for revenge, we have yet to see Book Sansa express any thoughts, desires, or need for revenge. Frankly, it's weird. This doesn't seem to be a matter of her goodness or unselfishness - the girl is almost totally wrapped up in herself. It's as if revenge is not a concept that she's ever heard of, as applied to beautiful princesses.

That said, I really liked the part in A Feast for Crows where Arya, as Cat of the Canals, hears Dareon the Night's Watch brother singing:

Talk about subverting the classic storyline! It once again emphasizes how the contrast between Arya and Sansa has not benefited Sansa's portrayal.

and you are the one suggesting I can only resolve conflict or assume it can be resolved by violence???  Hell, Almighty!!!  So Arya (who I generally like, but has flaws like all the others) just decides to turn vigilante and kill a man, not in any way a danger to her, or under her jurisdiction (to me the most reckless thing she has done thus far). In awe here!!!

Sansa is undergoing training in politics just like Arya is in killing and steath and Bran with the 3-Eyed Raven, if you guys things her training is for nothing you may have a shock at some point.  Sansa is not just training with Petyr but has been exposed to KL, to Tyrion, Cersei...Varys..  Just because she is good at sewing (arts and crafts), music, poetry (literature) she is not a less valuable member of society to someone who is good at maths or architecture.  Most of us have a place in this world and the arts and things like organising banquets and possibly interior design and fashion design are well paid professions in our day!

Arya is a valiant soldier and we need many of them, even today sadly.  She will fight with skill and honour and were she to die on duty these days she would have a very honorable funeral but at the end of the day, we need people like them both.  Arya's skills, granted, are more immediately needed when they are facing the Others etc but when they come to rebuild, in spring, people like Sansa would cheer the place up with children, and knitted blankets and keeping accounts in order and ladyship duties.  We all have a place in this world!

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On 10/24/2017 at 2:46 PM, LaurieMarlow said:

The reason for the hate is lack of understanding and exposure to this kind of archetype in fantasy fiction.  The fandom don't recognise her and so don't engage with her except on a very superficial level.

She's a young female of the dominant class who believes in the structure and values of the society she's been brought up in.  She's been groomed to please, to charm, to obey, to place high value on her looks and to marry well.  She's never had any reason to doubt authority figures in her life, she naively assumes they have her best interests at heart.  In fact, a big part of her success so far has been about pleasing authority and getting them on side (look at how she plays her Septa).   

Marrying the prince is literally the highest prize society has conditioned her to seek.  Dangling that in front of her is like the holy grail of achievement.  In wedding Joffrey, she would be 'successful' on societies terms beyond her wildest dreams.  No wonder she's obsessed by it.     

This kind of character is practically unknown in fantasy, or totally consigned to the background.  I have a PhD in 18th century literature though and it's choc full of Sansas.  And personally I find that (sometimes very slow and internalized) character arc, of maturation, growing self reliance and questioning the values she's been raised with to be hugely enjoyable.

Everything Sansa gets grief for (clinging to the dream of Joffrey as the benevolent prince, opening her heart to Cersei, ragging on Arya) I find to be totally understandable and in keeping with a character of her personality and station.  She doesn't for a moment anticipate the consequences of telling Cersei Ned's plans.  She assumes that there's been some confusion and the reasonable, 'on side' grownups will sort it out.

What I find most ironic though is that Sansa gets pilloried for exactly the same mistake that Ned gets more forgiveness for - treating Cersei like a fair, reasonable person.  In fact, of all of Ned's children, I think she's most like him.  A little slow to grasp what's going on around her, too attached to values that she holds dear (Ned's honour and Sansa's courtesy).  What I really hope is that her traumatic experience has prompted the kind of growth that Ned never realised and she will finish this series as the kind of brilliant, astute player of the game of thrones that Ned singularly failed to be. 

 

 

Good points!

 

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10 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I would venture to say Sansa is disliked by a percentage of the readership because of the way Sansa was written. Her protected life under her father led her to believe that her upbringing and lady courtesies would help her. It didn't happen. Her prince came. She was betrothed to her prince. The prince gave the order to behead Eddard.

With King Bob and Eddard dead Sansa has no protection. Yes, Sansa is powerless and dependent. You keep typing about her growth as a human being and character. She hasn't grown yet. She still has the "someday my prince will come" mentality.

LF is supposedly gonna marry Sansa Stark Lannister to Harry the Heir and give Sansa WF. Sansa believes it.

Yes, Sansa is powerless and wants to survive. The kid has been dealt a bad hand trying to do the best she can with what is available. Frankly, I am of the opinion that the author has more trouble and trials in store for young Sansa.

I think that she's grown more than many give her credit for.

And I don't think that is her attitude at all. She doesn't think Harry is going to be her hero at all, she even notes that good looks don't make a good person. And she's using LF as much as he is her. Yes she believes his plan, but so far we have no reason to believe this isn't his intent. It's pretty clear he wants her for himself but that in the interim he thinks marrying Sansa to him gets him control of both vale and the north.

He looks to be planning a long game where he can dispose of Harry once Sansa is pregnant and marry her himself. Sansa is well aware that he is after her and she's using this to manipulate him bu small degrees. 

She's changed in many ways, she no longer thinks life is a song, and knows what she truly values now, she wants to be loved for herself and not her status, she wants to make her own choices rather than passively go along with others plans, but she knows what is realistic in regard to these things, and how to read what other people want, she's changed her views on bastardy and status now that she's seeing the other side of it, and she's learning about what men want and the dangers and advantages involved, her faith in the old gods has become much more important to her, and she's more or less abandoned the 7, and she values the memories of her family. 

I agree there are more trials to come, I think there are for all our kids.

 

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11 hours ago, teej6 said:

Okay let’s go over this one more time. I said Sansa will backstab LF and if that were to happen that would be great. You seem to have latched onto the word backstab and ran with it. You seem to have mistakenly taken the word out of context in your initial response and instead of admitting your error, you subsequently started, rather poorly, attempting to justify your initial mistake. No one (but you) would take my initial statement of Sansa backstabbing LF as anything but a positive. 

As for you misinterpreting my posts, I blame that solely on your lack of comprehension and not on any of my posts. I was quite clear in what I meant in my statements.

I took issue with your constant use of “inner themes” as it sounded more like a juvenile attempt at sounding smart. 

You've been really rude to me.  

You've admitted that your first post came out of a place of feeling irritated by my post so I'm guessing you read everything with a snide veneer. Please know that I was not trying to be like that and was trying my best to convey my meaning and understand yours. 

 

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I think Sansa suffered from the multiple view points. We see her negatively through Arya's eyes, after being introduced to Arya in a favorable light. We see her focus on Jon's status as a bastard after seeing how all the other Starks adore him and treat him as an equal. We see her not like Tyrion after seeing him help both Jon and Bran. I think her opinion of these characters being shown to us in a negative way, after we have started to engage with them caused readers to react negatively to her. And I think this is why she is not forgiven as easily as a character like Dany, who is also a bit of a brat at times and does some horrible things, but since she doesn't do anything against characters that we know and like and we only see these characters through her POV readers are able to gloss over it more easily. Or Tyrion who does awful things to charters we as readers despise. I don't think it's a matter of what she does so much as it being a matter of who she does it to.

This results in her later chapters not being examined in depth by some readers, and since her character arch is very subtle a skim read can result in much being missed. It's not like Jamie say, where he tells us what made him the way he is, and vows to change, and has a big symbolic gesture to represent this change. With her it's all quiet and internal. Even the example given here about how she thinks Harry is awful was used to show a lack of growth when it is, in fact, the opposite. The description of why he is awful to her in her bastard guise is almost identical to how she treated Jon in book one. So she is in effect saying back then, I was awful. This is growth. She is also set up to encounter Brienne at some point, a tom boy woman warrior who will be the Arya stand in, allowing her to close out that character growth. For Tyrion and the Hound we have the old Dog and the knight who has a crush on Mya (blanking on the name, sorry), and for Jayne Poole we have Robert. Think of the compassion and patience she shows him over the death of his mother compared to her complaining of Jaynes crying all the time to Cersei in book one.

As for the poisoning, we know that it can kill because we learned that through an Arya chapter, we know that three pinches=lethal, she knows he needs it to stop shaking and make it down the mountain. She knows as the lord of the Vale he needs to show his strength to the Lords waiting below. And she knows the medicine doesn't leave the tissue. But does she know it could be lethal or is that just readers imposing our knowledge on her? 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Alayne I

"A pinch?" The apple in the maester's throat moved up and down as he swallowed. "One small pinch . . . perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try . . ."
"A pinch," Lord Petyr said, "before you bring him forth to meet the lords."
"As you command, my lord." The maester hurried out, his chain clinking softly with every step
 
and
 

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"And wanted another last night, which you refused him."
"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."
"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."

Neither of these show her having any knowledge of the fact that it could be lethal. And since we saw Arya be taught about this in text and the girls had the same education we can infer that Sansa is unaware of the risk. Perhaps her finding out is what will cause her to act against Littlefinger in an overt way. Only time will tell, but I for one am hopeful that she will turn the lords of the Vale, via Mirranda, against him to protect her cousin.

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On 5/8/2018 at 9:44 AM, zandru said:

Ha! The topic slipped off the main list and I went elsewhere... You seem, in this and other posts, to assume the only solution to anything is violence - swords, nukes (!!). What could Sansa have done?

  • Not concealed her bruises. Sure, "Joffrey wouldn't like it". But had Sansa appeared in court, or before Cersei, all bloody and black&blue, people would have at least wondered what had happened, what was going on.
  • Made allies. Sansa never bothered to talk to her servants or even learn their names because she assumed they'd tell all to Cersei anyway. Unstated was that they were just smallfolk. Had she been friendly, word would have gotten around and bought her good will among the folks who actually made things run in the Red Keep.
  • Made allies. A little more communication with the few Kingsguards who were sympathetic. Say, mention how "unknightly" Joffrey's orders were, sadness that he would make them break their vows of knighthood. A little more friendliness with the Hound, who seems to have been increasingly on edge with this new Mad King Joffrey and seemed to be drinking a lot more as a consequence.
  • Made allies. Tyrion arrived and greeted her with politeness and sympathy. Later, he literally rescued her. She would have been blind and deaf not to see the degree of enmity between Tyrion and his sister and Joffrey. He was, furthermore, Acting Hand with power to counteract the "King". She should have taken advantage of this most powerful ally.
  • Held her head high as a Northern Lady. Start dressing the part - Sansa is supposed to be a whiz with needlework, and we see she has plenty of time on her hands. Wear Northern dress. Do her hair in Northern styles.
  • Stop groveling about what a traitor you and the rest of your family are.
  • Stop proclaiming your undying love for Wormlips Joffrey.

Arya submitted when necessary, but she never stopped looking for ways to escape, ways to achieve revenge. She "networked". She reconnoitered. She kept herself in shape. None of this was beyond Sansa's capabilities.

To what end?  She is trapped in the Red Keep and surrounded by her enemies.  There is no one she can trust, and any expressions of defiance on her part simply get her more abuse.

Servants:  Her servants are Lannister loyalists and, in any case, are changed regularly so that she isn't able to make friends with any of them.  She certainly has no reason to trust them.

Escape:  Escape on her own is essentially impossible for her at this point,  and She knows that KL outside of the Red Keep isn't safe; the last time she left, she damned near got raped and/or killed.  Even Arya, whose life experiences better prepared her for that sort of thing, had a rough go of it, and if Yoren hadn't come along, might well have starved or got caught.  And the situation has deteriorated since then.  Dontos Hollard is, from what she knows, her best hope. of escape.

Allies:  As I pointed out above, she is surrounded by enemies; either Lannisters or their vassals and supporters.  There are also some other hostages, but she doesn't know them real well, and has to fear that they will expose anything she tries to do.  As for Tyrion, he is a Lannister; she has no reason to trust him or to think he will try to help her.

I think she did the best she could under the circumstances.  Keep her head down,, her eyes open, and seize opportunities when they become available (Dontos, the Tyrells).  She seems to have gotten savvier.  She is following Littlefinger's lead because, for the time being, his interests, such as she understands them, coincide with hers.  But she doesn't trust him, and is wary. When the interests don't coincide, watch out.  

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On 5/13/2018 at 3:14 AM, Only 89 selfies today said:

 George must have had a really annoying classmate in high school and modeled Sansa after her.  Sansa is bratty and quite selfish.  

Sansa is easy to dislike.  True that there are selfish teens out there but Sansa's is taken to another level.  A kid with common sense would know the seriousness of what Eddard confided and keep their mouths shut.

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On May 8, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I disagree with Arya's revenge goal and I don't like Arya.  But there are those readers who find value in what that little murderer does, even if I don't.  Sansa continues to do what she does, look out for Sansa.  It's always about Sansa to Sansa.  That is another reason why I find Sansa boring.

Except for  that time she risked Joffery's wrath for a total stranger, twice in a row, or that time she comforted the women while Kingslanding was under siege by Stannis. 

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On May 8, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Angel Eyes said:

The one about not looking for help among the small folk is probably part of her mother rubbing off on her. Sansa doesn't hobnob with the smallfolk, as Arya does with Mycah.

Um no? Like Catelyn is really never shown to be condescending to the small folk she interacts-hell very much cordial if anything to the ones back at winterfell. Would it not be the height of pure arrogance to think yourself so charming as to able to convince a person to risk his or her life along with their families out of pure gratitude for some courtesies you bestowed upon them? Do you think it's really so unreasonable that the servents of the lanisters would report any talk of treason to the lanisters? The risks of getting close is too much for Sansa-the wounds of betrayl, by Cersi and Joffery too fresh for her to really think about trusting anyone who have more reason than not to have loyalty to house Lanister. 

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I have enjoyed Sansa's Vale chapters. It's through her POV we are exposed to the rise of Strong Robin. He is the hero Sansa and Westeros needs. The underdog that no one will see coming. He loves Sansa for who she is, despite her fake bastard status, while the upjumped knight Harry the arse only likes her for her looks. Sansa loves to read stories about gallant knights and Robert loves listening to them. They will be a power couple.

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5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I have enjoyed Sansa's Vale chapters. It's through her POV we are exposed to the rise of Strong Robin. He is the hero Sansa and Westeros needs. The underdog that no one will see coming. He loves Sansa for who she is, despite her fake bastard status, while the upjumped knight Harry the arse only likes her for her looks. Sansa loves to read stories about gallant knights and Robert loves listening to them. They will be a power couple.

I never liked Sansa, but I liked her early chapters. Important things happened in her POVs (sometimes without her awareness ;) ), and they made sense in the overall story.

But her Vale chapters I don't know.. it seems to me Sansa lost every connection to relevant plot or other storylines. Her personal development also has fallen back compared to other characters, cause we didn't spend enough time in the Vale/nothing happened there. The far most interesting parts of her POVs are Littlefingers schemings, not anything she does.

For me, Sansa became from annoying but enjoyable to just boring. The Vales Areo. George literally sent her to sit in the corner until she has to play her role for the north.

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On 5/14/2018 at 8:28 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Except for  that time she risked Joffery's wrath for a total stranger, twice in a row, or that time she comforted the women while Kingslanding was under siege by Stannis. 

Those were low risk compared to what the other characters do to help others.

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56 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Those were low risk compared to what the other characters do to help others.

Sure, when you forget that she has no freedom of movement. And opposing a almighty sadistic prick is always dangerous…

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3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Those were low risk compared to what the other characters do to help others.

Like? If anyone doesn't think that Joffrey would not seriously harm Sansa, they haven't been paying attention. He has been continuously harming her, beating and humiliating her. Also, it is very important to understand that we are talking about 12-year-old child here. Her perception of what Joffrey can do may be somewhat unrealistic, but it is also not far from truth. There is nothing "low risk" about angering entitled sociopath on the Throne. 

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2 hours ago, goldenmaps said:

Which almighty sadistic prick are you talking about - Joffrey or Cersei. 

Joffrey of course — as for her behaviour during the siege, Sansa takes on the duties of the queen mother (showing trust in her king) while the latter gets drunk and communicates her fear to everyone…

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