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Why do people hate Sansa?


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7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well in legal terms, the person who orders the act is considered an accessory to a crime if not there, while an accomplice is present at the act. Take the Purple Wedding:

  • Littlefinger is an accessory by masterminding Joffrey's death
  • Dontos Hollard is an accomplice by smuggling the poison to the wedding
  • Sansa is an unwitting accomplice by carrying the poison on her 
  • Olenna Redwyne Tyrell is the principle by removing the poison from Sansa and poisoning Joffrey's wine

All are guilty from Joffrey's murder plus anyone else who knew it was going to happen. Sansa of course is innocent.

Difference is Ollena, Dontos, LF definitely have a choice while KG don't really have much of a choice, since they can't quit their job. It is like Jamie explains man swears so many oaths he will soon be forced to break one because of another.

Though Sansa's torment and Theon's can't be compared since Theon's was much harsher.

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I have no feelings towards Sansa since I am not a Stark fanboiii to like her but I don't dislike her either because I can't really judge her for what she does, she has a good heart and was brought up to be a Lady, she could hardly do anything differently as she did. I believe LF will fall and my biggest hope is Sansa replaces him as a player, though that transition would really need to start happening in TWOW. I like her chapters because she is around events I am most interested in (Kingslanding politics and LF plots in Vale). While I can't stand Jon's chapters that are boring as fuck usually and I feel the same way for him as for Sansa (so he's a good lad but boring).

Now the character I really dislike is Daenerys. I don't really think my hate for her is warranted since she had a hard childhood and Viserys brainwashed her and she has her father's temper. But I do because so many people love her and say how great she is and Lord of Cringe is to strong.

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1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Yeah, that guy. He spends most of the time surrounded by his own people and when he finally comes into the hands of his enemies he gives in the first thing to Varys suggestion and publically announce that Joffrey is the rightful king and that he himself is a traitor.

By the standards put to Sansa I would expect people to call him a selfish coward and a sell out and say that he should proudly see his daughters killed and himself executed, and do so in stoic dignity because, the North remember!

A more reasonable parallel in Sansa's situation is Theon in Ramsay's hands.

Man if only you had bothered to read on

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5 hours ago, zandru said:

But that just clinches the notion that Sansa is purely ordinary, average, nothing special but for her (fleeting) good looks and breeding.

And her wits according to the writer himself. she has the same gift as LF.

LF is not a warrior, a wizard or a leader but he plays powerful lords like a fiddle.

5 hours ago, zandru said:

What COULD Sansa have done? She could have tried to befriend her servants, or even learn their names. She told herself well, they're spying for Cersei, so I have no use for them. Sansa might have picked up more information that way, and gained sympathy; after all, these were the women who got to see, up close and personal, Sansa's wounds and bruises. Had she bothered to talk to them, they might have been on her side, at least to some extent.

Sansa watched the girl suspiciously. Had she seen the note? Had she put it under the pillow? It did not seem likely; she seemed a stupid girl, not one you'd want delivering secret notes, but Sansa did not know her. The queen had her servants changed every fortnight, to make certain none of them befriended her.

And she was right. they were Cersei's spies. Tyrion confirmed it. so not befriending them was smart.

but even if she could've gained their sympathy and friendship do you think they would've helped her? even Sandor who was a fearless warrior did not help Sansa although he sure liked and pitied her. he only offered to help her when he was broken and done with the Lannisters. and what information she might've picked up?

5 hours ago, zandru said:

Sansa's wounds and bruises? I mentioned before that, like Cersei, she should have worn them proudly and defiantly like badges of honor, rather than making sure all damage was concealed by clothing and makeup. No, "the whole court" didn't see her beatings, just a relative handful. But, by covering up the damage, even those witnessing the attacks would be inclined to think That looked really terrible, but I don't see any sign of it now, so maybe it was no big deal. Any people that the witnesses had told about it would see Sansa's lack of injuries and think Oh sure, he "beat" her - but where's the evidence? Displaying the injuries would be stark evidence (heh) of what Joffrey had had done. Even people who hadn't seen it would wonder how it happened. People would talk, and lots would sympathize with the little fiance.

She was beaten by a sword for a dozen time and stripped in front of the court. what did they do except for watching her? did some of them pitied her or sympathized with her? probably. did any of them tried to help her? no. because she was a Stark and they were Lannister's allies and friends.

5 hours ago, zandru said:

Sansa also needed to stop groveling and making nice. Her first response was My father's a traitor! My whole family are traitors! But I   L O O O V E  my dearest Joffrey! I do! I do!! Sansa should know what a "hostage" is and their value, particularly after hearing Tyrion note repeatedly that if anything happened to her, the king's uncle (also father) was dead. There was really nothing to be gained by continuing to debase herself and her family. Was she still actually holding out with the idea that, whatever else happened, she would soon be The Queen? (Not while Cersei survived...) 

By playing dumb and nice she gained herself some freedom. later she used that freedom to meet with Dantos almost every night and then to escape. they taught she was just a stupid and well-behaved child and that's why they never suspected anything. if she had been defiant she would've been watched way more closely. they might've even imprisoned her. and Joffrey would've abused her mush more severely.

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48 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And her wits according to the writer himself. she has the same gift as LF.

Sorry, I evidently missed that part. I disagree with your other analyses, too. There was a fourth thing that Sansa might have done: recognized who her friends were. That includes the Hound and Tyrion. But the first was too scary, the second too Lannistery. So, like her nameless, faceless servants, she wrote them off from the start, never doing anything to cultivate their friendship.

Even Arya figured out which of her captors were the most dangerous, and who would give her an extra piece of bread if she asked.

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Sansa is second only to her mother as a character I have the least sympathy for. While Cat actively does negative things, Sansa mostly does nothing and feels bad about it.

Given literally every advantage she could hope for...

Treats those "beneath" her terribly.

Doesnt show sympathy, concern, or empathy for others. She treats servants, her companions, her sister and her husband terribly.

Takes no active role or responsibility in her story. (With the one exception of betraying her father and getting him killed).

But honestly, even Ned's betrayal aside, failing to stand up for your little sister (and showing no concern for a murdered butcher's boy) and lying makes you a bad person. 

She's spoiled brat who, frankly, I haven't seen much, if any, improvement in her character arc.

In my opinion she is most like a little Cersei, totally self absorbed and blaming others for her life.

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20 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In my opinion she is most like a little Cersei, totally self absorbed and blaming others for her life.

By the time old whoremaster Petyr Baelish finishes training her, Sansa will be an equally capable, but younger and a better sexual manipulator than Cersei ever was. And likely a very useful tool for Littlefinger's ambitions.

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2 hours ago, zandru said:

By the time old whoremaster Petyr Baelish finishes training her, Sansa will be an equally capable, but younger and a better sexual manipulator than Cersei ever was. And likely a very useful tool for Littlefinger's ambitions.

Do you actually believe George has given her a mentor like LF so that she could be a useful pawn/tool. does it make any sense story wise? she is one of the protagonists and her arc parallels her siblings'. they all have dark and powerful mentors and for now they are under their influence. but are they gonna remain their pupil forever?

For now she needs LF to train her but sooner or later she will start becoming her own person.

I'm sure you've already read what George have said about Sansa and her development. so I don't get why do you think she will remain a pawn. George is telling you she is gradually becoming a player. do you think he is lying?

"...She is beginning to at least try to understand how she can play the game of thrones and be not a piece but a player with her own goals and moving other pieces around... and she is not a warrior like Robb, Jon Snow. she is not even a wild child like Arya. she can't fight with swords, axes. she can't raise armies... but she has her wits the same as Littlefinger has."

GRRM

And about a whoremaster training her to be a capale sexual manipulator part... as an Arya fan it's a bit strange that you brought this up. without a whoremaster training her Arya has already used sex to trap and kill a man. and she is what? 12? both of them are learning to seduce men not just Sansa.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Treats those "beneath" her terribly.

AGOT Sansa? sure.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Doesnt show sympathy, concern, or empathy for others. She treats servants, her companions, her sister and her husband terribly.

She tried to save a drunk, useless, stranger.

She stopped Jofrrey from riding down an innocent commoner before the riot of KL.

She warned Margaery twice about Joffrey's true nature although she knew it was a dangerous thing to do.

She was worried about Sandor after his confession and tried to soothe him.

these examples are enough to disprove your claim.

And could you please give me some examples of her terrible treatment of her servants and companions in the ACOK, ASOS and AFFK?

And about Tyrion. why do you think she treated him terribly? because she did not kneel for him in her forced wedding? he agreed to marry a helpless 12 year old for her claim. he did not deserve her respect. or maybe not sleeping with him and not befriending him were terribly wrong?

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But honestly, even Ned's betrayal aside, failing to stand up for your little sister (and showing no concern for a murdered butcher's boy) and lying makes you a bad person.

Sure. as I said before AGOT Sansa was a selfish child. but you are judging her only based on the first book. she has changed since her father's execution.

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She's spoiled brat who, frankly, I haven't seen much, if any, improvement in her character arc.

acknowledging and regretting her mistake, setting aside all her dreams of becoming queen, Saving a helpless person, hugging lowborn Lothor Brune and believing Alayne is stronger than Sansa because she is bastard are not considered improvements?

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18 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

does it make any sense story wise?

Sure it does. That Sansa is learning "to play the game" doesn't mean she's on an admirable character arc. Cersei, stupid as she is, plays the game. Littlefinger plays the game. Roose Bolton plays it like a real pro. Don't forget, Sansa was originally intended to leave her family and turn away from them in the original storyline. We really don't know whether this will go forward - but we do not know that it won't.

21 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And about Tyrion. why do you think she treated him terribly?

Because, although she remembered the times he'd stood up for her and helped her, Sansa treated him like dirt. Yeah, the wedding. Big deal with the bedding - remember, Tyrion put a stop to the traditional public stripping and carrying the bride upstairs. He did ask that she disrobe and he did, too. But then he accepted her rejection of him and made no advances, then or ever.

Sansa repaid Tyrion by putting on her mad, pouty face for him day and night and refusing to speak. She was a bubbly, happy socialite with everyone else, preferably right in front of him, to make sure he knew how she loathed him. As far as empathy goes, Sansa could not have been unaware that Tyrion had been severely wounded in the Battle on the Blackwater, almost dying, a crossbow bolt in his shoulder and his face slashed open. Had his squire not located him in a pile of bodies, he would have died. The little guy is still healing from that, but Sansa's only response to this little man who has done all that he can to respect her and her wishes is to think how ugly he is without his nose. And even worse, of course, without his clothes. She also ignores the dynamic between Tyrion and the Queen his sister, Tyrion and the King his nephew, and Tywin the Hand: he hates his family. They had common ground, but Sansa fails to even notice, let alone exploit this fact.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Sure it does. That Sansa is learning "to play the game" doesn't mean she's on an admirable character arc. Cersei, stupid as she is, plays the game. Littlefinger plays the game. Roose Bolton plays it like a real pro.

We were not talking about whether her arc is admirable or not. we were talking about whether she will remain a pawn/tool or become a player. it seems like you agree that she is learning politics and will become a player sooner or later.

And her arc is not finished yet so we don't know whether it is admirable or not. there is nothing wrong with leaning politics. but it remains to be seen how she will use these skills.

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Don't forget, Sansa was originally intended to leave her family and turn away from them in the original storyline. We really don't know whether this will go forward - but we do not know that it won't.

Sansa's betrayal has already happened in the first book and she regrets it bitterly. why do you think she will betray her family again after all she has been through?

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Because, although she remembered the times he'd stood up for her and helped her, Sansa treated him like dirt. Yeah, the wedding. Big deal with the bedding - remember, Tyrion put a stop to the traditional public stripping and carrying the bride upstairs. He did ask that she disrobe and he did, too. But then he accepted her rejection of him and made no advances, then or ever.

He married a 12 year old because he wanted Winterfell. he was not a victim in their marriage.

and he was ready to have a sex with a child but at the end he couldn't rape her.

1 hour ago, zandru said:

The little guy is still healing from that, but Sansa's only response to this little man who has done all that he can to respect her and her wishes is to think how ugly he is without his nose.

He shouldn't have agreed to marry a helpless child if he really cared about her or respected her and her wishes.

He was a Lannister and he was loyal to his family no matter how much he apparently hated them. and his family was at war with hers. she could not open up to someone who was on enemy's team and was working against her family.

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Sansa could not have been unaware that Tyrion had been severely wounded in the Battle on the Blackwater, almost dying, a crossbow bolt in his shoulder and his face slashed open. Had his squire not located him in a pile of bodies, he would have died.

She also could not have been unaware that it was Tyrion who was behind Lannister's victory. he fought for his family and his evil nephew against the rightful heir.

1 hour ago, zandru said:

She also ignores the dynamic between Tyrion and the Queen his sister, Tyrion and the King his nephew, and Tywin the Hand: he hates his family. They had common ground, but Sansa fails to even notice, let alone exploit this fact.

yeah he hated them. but he fought for them, married her so Winterfell could become his(and theris) and remained loyal to them until the very end. so there was no real common ground.

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For much of her time in King's Landing her brother and mother were leading a vast army against the Lannister forces and winning and her aunt Lysa was ruling the Vale with another army at her disposal.  Riverrun, the North and the Vale were all held by her own family.  This put her in a position to offer a huge reward to anyone who would aid her.  So, there is absolutely no reason to think that no one at all in the Red Keep could have been bribed to help her escape. That escape probably would have failed, but it may have succeeded, we will never know, since Sansa never tried it.  She never tried anything at all, not even once.  

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Sansa is annoying, dull, dumb, selfish, and a Stark.  All negatives in my opinion.  I hate Sansa almost as much as I hate Jon and Arya.  Oh, and this is not a hate post.  I am simply giving you an honest answer to the question you are asking.  You wanted to know why I hate Sansa and there is my answer.  :)

 

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37 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

And her arc is not finished yet so we don't know whether it is admirable or not.

Didn't I say that? I thought I said that. The rest of your arguments sound like something Sansa would say. All "can't, won't, shouldn't". Not a hint of actually trying anything, looking with her eyes, hearing with her ears, learning what was happening even if she didn't yet know how to influence it. Yeah, she'll soak up Baelish's spoon-fed tutorials like a sponge, and if she remains as she has been through the fifth book, she'll rationalize to herself what she did and/or actually change the way she remembers things that happened. Frighteningly like Cersei, but not yet as delusional, and fortunately, not with any great power ... yet.

42 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

She also could not have been unaware that it was Tyrion who was behind Lannister's victory.

So Tywin's assault with the combined Lannister and Tyrell forces, led by the Ghost of Renly, had zero effect? Yeah, sure. If Tyrion had been viewed as having contributed to the great victory, would he have been left in a pile of dead bodies? Don't hang the whole marriage thing on Tyrion, either. If he hadn't consented, Tywin would have named someone else who WOULD have gladly raped a 13 year old, flowered "woman grown" -- as often as needed until she actually started "showing." Not only did Tyrion respect Sansa during and after the marriage, he endured endless smirks from everyone about his lack of "manhood" for not having raped Sansa yet.

You may have noticed that, after the battle, Tyrion was moving into a very bad place. Sansa just gave him another little kick down the stairs. I refuse to believe she's all that "empathic."

19 minutes ago, Noble Lothar Frey said:

You wanted to know why I hate Sansa and there is my answer.

Like the Hound, I can appreciate honesty.  ;-)

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5 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

It's funny, Sansa and Catelyn are two of the most hated characters, but they're also the most similar to the average asofai reader out of all the POV characters

Indeed. We want HEROES, not ordinary, prosaic people no better than ourselves. Is that wrong?

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Indeed. We want HEROES, not ordinary, prosaic people no better than ourselves. Is that wrong?

As I was reading your posts above, I just kept thinking this guy sounds like he wants more guns and explosions in Sansa's arc. Maybe a leather-clad urban fantasy heroine with a big sword or something. And here it sounds like you want ASOIAF as a Michael Bay film. It's not wrong, but this just doesn't seem like the right place for that.

Given the grey characters and the complicated moral dilemmas with no clear path, I have to imagine that you'll be struggling with the series as it comes to a close. To put these characters into clear-cut categories (among them, HEROES), it requires some serious mental retcons. You've demonstrated some of these mental retcons above with the dual-sidism as I think you put it which happens to be consistent with the author, with refusing to see Sansa's wit when the author explicitly said it was there, and others.

This forum is full of discussions about who is good/bad/whatever. Apparently a number of characters will be getting darker in TWOW which will muddy the field further. I think the end will be the same. We'll get acts of heroism to be sure, but I'm not really sure at all about heroes.

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10 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

Generally in a discussion such as this it's culturally accepted to respond to someone's actual point, or opinion.  Not just a fragment of their point.  My point is, in one sentence, "Nobody in the books allows themselves to be manipulated constantly and repetitively, wallow in their own self misery, without making any proactive actions like Sansa."  I've bolded an important point for you because you chose to respond to one sentence out of my post, which makes no sense.

Now moving on to the actual content of your post. I think you're confusing what Sansa is with simply being manipulated. Every character in the book has been manipulated at some point.  What I'm saying is that the other characters, specifically the ones you mention, all are players making positive action.  Every single one of them took their fate in their own hands, and strove to improve their situations.  Whereas Sansa simply muddles through her life, feeling sorry for herself rather than taking steps to change.

Again i'll reiterate with Ned Stark, the guy was a major player.  He uncovered the fact about the Lannister children being products of incest.  He also was hand to the king and one of the top warriors that helped overthrow a kingdom.  Those are big moves no matter how you slice it.  The fact that he was eventually outwitted doesn't mitigate his overall impact on the story.

On to Robert, as I've already said he was the leader of a rebellion and a renowned warrior.  Eventually sitting on his laurels got him killed by a scheming wife.  Same with Ned, this doesn't change the fact that he was an important and influential character, he was simply killed.

You can say Renly was simply a puppet but that remains to be proven.  The fact of the matter is that he made a play for the throne.  That's a big move no matter how you look at it.

Stannis is the same scenario.  He attempted to overthrow the Lannisters and become king.

To recap, you're simply confusing the point.  I never said these people never got manipulated, I said these people were all major players.  My biggest source of dislike for Sansa is that she doesn't do anything proactive.  She doesn't make any big moves or try and change anything.  Being manipulated doesn't make you an inert character, it simply means that you risked a lot.  One may argue that the bigger the player you are and the more you try to do the greater the risk is that someone will manipulate you.

You're comparing a 12 year old abused hostage with Ned and Robert during the rebellion (and afterwards) when they were grown men, lords in their own right, and fully trained warriors who could command armies called from the bannermen who owed them allegiance.  When Ned and Robert were 12, they were sparring in the practice yard, riding at rings and having food fights in the hall of their doting foster father. Their 12 yr old life doesn't even begin to compare with Sansa's.

 

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3 hours ago, zandru said:

Didn't I say that? I thought I said that. The rest of your arguments sound like something Sansa would say. All "can't, won't, shouldn't". Not a hint of actually trying anything, looking with her eyes, hearing with her ears, learning what was happening even if she didn't yet know how to influence it. Yeah, she'll soak up Baelish's spoon-fed tutorials like a sponge, and if she remains as she has been through the fifth book, she'll rationalize to herself what she did and/or actually change the way she remembers things that happened. Frighteningly like Cersei, but not yet as delusional, and fortunately, not with any great power ... yet.

So Tywin's assault with the combined Lannister and Tyrell forces, led by the Ghost of Renly, had zero effect? Yeah, sure. If Tyrion had been viewed as having contributed to the great victory, would he have been left in a pile of dead bodies? Don't hang the whole marriage thing on Tyrion, either. If he hadn't consented, Tywin would have named someone else who WOULD have gladly raped a 13 year old, flowered "woman grown" -- as often as needed until she actually started "showing." Not only did Tyrion respect Sansa during and after the marriage, he endured endless smirks from everyone about his lack of "manhood" for not having raped Sansa yet.

You may have noticed that, after the battle, Tyrion was moving into a very bad place. Sansa just gave him another little kick down the stairs. I refuse to believe she's all that "empathic."

Like the Hound, I can appreciate honesty.  ;-)

Sansa was a 12 year old hostage forcibly married to Tyrion so that she could be used to steal Winterfell after the Lannisters had killed off her remaining family. In her place, I'd probably want to see Tyrion's head on a spike along with the rest of his family -who were her enemies. She does recognise that Tyrion is the least-worst Lannister but that's not really saying much and she does feel shame when he's humiliated at the wedding she's been forced into. She does feel empathy for him which is why she ultimately kneels despite the awfulness of the situation for her. She even prays for Tyrion in the sept at the Battle of Blackwater, despite it being in her interests for Tyrion to lose and Stannis to win.

I like Tyrion, despite his greyness, but I don't see why Sansa owes him trust or empathy. 

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