Jump to content
manchester_babe

Why do people hate Sansa?

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Sweetrobin will survive them all --

'The Seed is Strong!!!'

It would be very ironic. 

Offhand, so where is he going to get a supply of breast milk now that Lysa's dead?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Angel Eyes said:

It would be very ironic. 

That's the way GRRM rolls...

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Offhand, so where is he going to get a supply of breast milk now that Lysa's dead?

It's best he lays off the 'breast milk'...It's likely Lysa was either a 'sweetsleep' addict by choice, or by coercion (Littlefinger slipping her the drug), so in that case it would have been secreted in the breast milk, in all likelihood, for Sweetrobin's imbibition, resulting in an addiction in the child.  Following Lysa's death, Littlefinger continues to slip him the drug, so the best thing for him would be to wise up to the deception and to see his father (yes, I believe LF is his biological father -- irony, again...) clearly:

Quote

1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never hated her just found her annoying and her character not interesting you know the sakura of the series. I did hate how she sided with the lannisters at first over her family especially after they killed her wolf. Alas despite how much she has grown she hasn't done anythign to make me warrant her as interesting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Sansa has a character flaw, or two, or three... -- that doesn't make her a 'villain'.

Perhaps you misread. I wasn't saying Sansa was a villain. I've repeatedly stated that I, personally, don't like her and enumerated the reasons. Plus, I agree with the well-stated reasons of the several others who don't like her. If you re-read the GRRM quote, you'll note that he was saying good writing doesn't set up clear "heroes" and "villains", and he's been pleased by the debates people have had over the years regarding his ASOIAF characters.

I'm still a little surprised in a thread where the question is "Why do people hate Sansa?" some of y'all maintain that nobody should be allowed to hate Sansa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, zandru said:

 

There seems to be some reluctance by many to accept the question of this whole thread "Why do people hate Sansa?" There have been a lot of enlightening answers which deal with her actions, both in the beginning of the series and onward, and just how people feel. But the insistence by others of y'all that NOBODY ought to hate Sansa, ever, is to my mind out of place.

Agreed. This may as well be renamed why do you love Sansa and agree with a erything she has ever done? 

 

The amount of hand waving and excusing her early ignorance is astounding. Oh well. At least it's better than trying to be critical of Daeny. At least Sansa supporters don't take personal offense if you claim to not love their girl to the point of tattooing her name in your forehead. 

 

+1 for that. 

36 minutes ago, zandru said:

Perhaps you misread. I wasn't saying Sansa was a villain. I've repeatedly stated that I, personally, don't like her and enumerated the reasons. Plus, I agree with the well-stated reasons of the several others who don't like her. If you re-read the GRRM quote, you'll note that he was saying good writing doesn't set up clear "heroes" and "villains", and he's been pleased by the debates people have had over the years regarding his ASOIAF characters.

I'm still a little surprised in a thread where the question is "Why do people hate Sansa?" some of y'all maintain that nobody should be allowed to hate Sansa.

 

This needs repeating

Not liking a character does not mean that they should not exist. Hardly anyone likes Joffrey, but who in the right mind would say that he should be deleted from the story? I don't like the old Sansa, but I get it. Not every Stark child is a super smart badass fighter. That isn't remotely realistic, and yes, her upbringing and her actions make sense. 

That don't mean I have to like her.

I don't even like Arya to be honest, and Jon Snow is wearing on me. That's because they are not one dimensional cliche characters that are focus tested to appeal to mass audiences. They are as real as you can get considering they don't really exist. I like to think I am a pretty mellow fellow and I have been called an asshole to my face before. That's how people work.

So when  I say that I dislike "X" character, that doesn't mean I am suggesting they be removed from the story or killed off (despite me wanting it at times, lol). I am just saying that I would shake the living hell out of book#1 Sansa until her pretty little teeth fell out of her head or she grew have a damn brain. And I'd probably do worse to Ned cause that level of ignorance was just rage inducing. But I understand why he was how he was and his being that way was extremely important to the story. Don't mean I gotta like him or I am just nitpicking for no real reason. It's an opinion.

10 hours ago, LaurieMarlow said:

There's a lot you're not getting here.  They raised Sansa as a high born girl.  Yes, that is different to how they raised their boy children.  They raised her to be pliant, charming, pleasing, to marry well, to prioritize her looks and her accomplishments, to ultimately submit to male authority in the form of her husband, to attract and be taken care of by (hopefully) a solid, caring nobleman. 

Now, they will have tried to raise Arya the same, but she (thus far) rebelled against it.  And don't forget she's very young when GOT opens. 

The Starks did not foresee the treacherous world Sansa would be exposed to.  They didn't equip her with the skills.  That's obvious in the first few chapters of GOT where the boys are out riding and shooting and Sansa's perfecting her needlework.  Now, you can argue that they should have, that Ned at least should have known that court is full of vipers, but that's his naivety, not hers.

Sansa was being prepared for a peaceful world.  She was being groomed to be a great trophy wife.  If this peaceful world had come to pass, she had far more skills to succeed in the role expected from her than Arya.  But fate took a very different turn.   

I get that. It may seem like I don't, but I do. That was worth a lot of leeway for me and I totally see why she adored Joff so much and thought everyone was nice and war didn't exist.

However, my gripe with her is that it took her sooooooo long to learn. Like, if you were raised to believe that no one lied, it makes sense you trust everyone right? But when someone lies to you, you have a choice. Either acknowledge that it happened and learn from it, or ignore it and continue on like a fool.

Sansa did the latter. Without even going that deep into the story, when Joff showed he was a little jerk to Arya and her friend Sansa could have been honest. A lady is supposed to be honest and she should not lie to the king or her father. Not only that, she should have been loyal to family. What did she do?

She curled up inside herself and let the lie continue and had her wolf get killed and Arya's friend murdered. Why? Was it because she was a dainty lady? I don't think so.

I think it;'s cause she is an extremely weak willed and selfish person who cared more for living out her fairy tale life and would have ignored any and all evidence of reality so long as she got what she wanted. As bad as that was, I forgave her and hand waved it. But then she continues and continues and continues and only wises up when she starts getting abused. Key word there, SHE. I fully believe that so long as she never directly felt the repercussions of her actions (or inaction) she would remain ignorant and in Joff's palm. That's why I disliked her.

 

And yes I get she was a child. However, children are very selfish at times too. If I see a child bullying another or torturing an animal I am not gonna just stand there and claim that little Joffrey is a good little angel and any naysayers are wrong about him.

Edited by MrJay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MrJay said:

Agreed. This may as well be renamed why do you love Sansa and agree with a erything she has ever done? 

 

The amount of hand waving and excusing her early ignorance is astounding. Oh well. At least it's better than trying to be critical of Daeny. At least Sansa supporters don't take personal offense if you claim to not love their girl to the point of tattooing her name in your forehead. 

 

+1 for that. 

 

This needs repeating

Not liking a character does not mean that they should not exist. Hardly anyone likes Joffrey, but who in the right mind would say that he should be deleted from the story? I don't like the old Sansa, but I get it. Not every Stark child is a super smart badass fighter. That isn't remotely realistic, and yes, her upbringing and her actions make sense. 

That don't mean I have to like her.

I don't even like Arya to be honest, and Jon Snow is wearing on me. That's because they are not one dimensional cliche characters that are focus tested to appeal to mass audiences. They are as real as you can get considering they don't really exist. I like to think I am a pretty mellow fellow and I have been called an asshole to my face before. That's how people work.

So when  I say that I dislike "X" character, that doesn't mean I am suggesting they be removed from the story or killed off (despite me wanting it at times, lol). I am just saying that I would shake the living hell out of book#1 Sansa until her pretty little teeth fell out of her head or she grew have a damn brain. And I'd probably do worse to Ned cause that level of ignorance was just rage inducing. But I understand why he was how he was and his being that way was extremely important to the story. Don't mean I gotta like him or I am just nitpicking for no real reason. It's an opinion.

I get that. It may seem like I don't, but I do. That was worth a lot of leeway for me and I totally see why she adored Joff so much and thought everyone was nice and war didn't exist.

However, my gripe with her is that it took her sooooooo long to learn. Like, if you were raised to believe that no one lied, it makes sense you trust everyone right? But when someone lies to you, you have a choice. Either acknowledge that it happened and learn from it, or ignore it and continue on like a fool.

Sansa did the latter. Without even going that deep into the story, when Joff showed he was a little jerk to Arya and her friend Sansa could have been honest. A lady is supposed to be honest and she should not lie to the king or her father. Not only that, she should have been loyal to family. What did she do?

She curled up inside herself and let the lie continue and had her wolf get killed and Arya's friend murdered. Why? Was it because she was a dainty lady? I don't think so.

I think it;'s cause she is an extremely weak willed and selfish person who cared more for living out her fairy tale life and would have ignored any and all evidence of reality so long as she got what she wanted. As bad as that was, I forgave her and hand waved it. But then she continues and continues and continues and only wises up when she starts getting abused. Key word there, SHE. I fully believe that so long as she never directly felt the repercussions of her actions (or inaction) she would remain ignorant and in Joff's palm. That's why I disliked her.

 

And yes I get she was a child. However, children are very selfish at times too. If I see a child bullying another or torturing an animal I am not gonna just stand there and claim that little Joffrey is a good little angel and any naysayers are wrong about him.

Well, I can excuse her behavior up to the Trident incident, due to wanting to be a proper lady and because the Septa criticized Arya a lot due to being a tomboy. Not liking Jon could be chalked up to her mother's behavior toward Jon (though that I can't excuse). Not seeing or choosing not to believe Joffrey was bad after cutting Mycah's face was when she started to grate on me. Running to Cersei and letting her know of Ned's plans had me face palming. And then she became sympathetic again when Ned got executed and she's effectively a prisoner in the Red Keep, a metaphorical dagger at her throat. Wondering if it should have gotten that far.

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MrJay said:

That don't mean I have to like her.

There's nothing wrong with disliking Sansa, this thread is directed more towards fans who blindly hate her, I've seen a fan who tried to justify Joffrey's abuse to her. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Not everything is relative -- some ways of behaving towards others are more admirable, if not more 'ethical', than others (yes, darling @YOVMO, it's quite possible to judge such things without being vacuous and unreflective!).

Well now, Byan Votyris, thanks for throwing me under that Norvoshi caravan! I have never claimed that believing there is some kind of static morality is either vacuous or unreflective my dearest @ravenous reader merely that there is a form of it that is. I would go as far as to say that in the books (as in RL but we won't delve too much into it because what's that got to do with the price of tea in Pentosh) that ethics and morals are subjective universal. That is, sweet summer child, that the stars in the Crone's Lantern don't give a whit about moral, ethical or even admirable behavior and therefor judging that there is an absolute morality is either too strong or not reflective enough...however, that humans share certain principles on the basis of their own humanity, there is some common sense of what is right and wrong and what is deserving or ire or admiration. In this way some, though not all, judgments like this are subjective to humanity while being absolute in an inter-human way.

This is the very reason that the Targaryen's claimed multiple wives and incest as fine...they didn't see themselves as human, they were something more...This brings up the real problem with the COTF. While a man from the westerlands can expect certain commonalities in moral judgment (if not custom) from a northerner, a man of the reach or even an essosi sellsword that commonality, that universality, is pinned to the fact that they are human...it is only a universal fact in the context of humanity and as such the COTF, like the Targaryen's, like Gods and like shadowcats will follow different rules that can't be predicted by mankind as man has a way of superimposing his own sense of self on all other beings. Like the great philosopher, centuries before even Plato, Xenophanes said "The Ethiops say that their gods are flat-nosed and black,
While the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair. Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw, And could sculpt like men, then the horses would draw their god, like horses, and cattle like cattle; and each they would shape bodies of gods in the likeness, each kind, of their own"

So no my dear RR I am quite fine with claiming that morals aren't always relative...so long as it is in the context of interspecies subjectivity.

 

That said, and back to Sansa, it is true that she gets her comeuppance handed down from GRRM who is, as you said, not nearly as shade of gray morally as people make him out to be. Often times the characters he writes have shades of gray but that is because they have bad in them and good in them not because good and bad do not exist. My ziplock top is green...that doesn't mean there is no yellow and blue in the world...quite the opposite actually. What we can say about Sansa, however, to her credit is that she is forced to grow into maturity at a young age....even for early age of maturity we have throughout the story....I think your example of Sansa siding with the Lannisters and having her wolf killed is a good one and perfectly parallels her siding with the Lannisters when her father is killed. It is a shame it took her two lessons, but I don't think she will make the mistake again. The reason that people may point to her and say she is horrible is that the stakes are so high. Morality gets easier to judge when there is a body count. Arya also misbehaves and is punished on a much smaller scale with her needlepoint and later with general rough housing. Because the stakes are smaller she is isn't on the hook as much.

I still think that Sansa's refusal to learn until it is too late most closely parallels the experience of the reader who, I truly believe, took the entire first book to really have the idea hammered home that this isn't a story that will follow the old tropes. That said, and I know a lot of people have learned the word "tropes" on message boards such as this and now use it the way every kid taking the SAT does--there I said it, people who claim that grrm is throwing away the old tropes often seem to neglect that fact that he isn't going into a chaotic universe, but rather taking massive pains to create a logically consistent universe with new tropes. He isn't George the Tropeless. The same way that people think that nihilists, yeah I'm coming full circle so what, are people who live in a world devoid of morals simply because they destroy the current accepted moral system when in reality nihilists, real nihilists not 16 year olds who read an aphorism book with some Nietzsche in it, annihilate the old order in order to create and then follow their own...some parts similar or even the same, but a self created moral system which is what we were promised by Thomas Jefferson.....life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness....which in an 18th century sense for people who read Rousseau very clearly meant the ability to self govern....

 

Half way through writing this I figured you were just having a little fun with me but I kept it up anyway.

Edited by YOVMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Half way through writing this I figured you were just having a little fun with me but I kept it up anyway.

Half way through the first 'graph, I skipped to the end. Remember, it's often unwise to stay up too late, and you always want to re-read before hitting that "Submit" key. (Let the recriminations begin!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

There's nothing wrong with disliking Sansa, this thread is directed more towards fans who blindly hate her, I've seen a fan who tried to justify Joffrey's abuse to her. 

Bizarre move to try and defend abuse...

Also, I'm curious how you can not hate Sansa without being blind? Unless hate is "too strong a word" and you "don't hate anyone"... then it's just semantics between that and dislike. The point is, I would worry for someone who likes Sansa... what possible redeeming qualities do you see in her?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like Sansa.  I never have and I don't think I will ever do.  She is just not a character that appeals to me.  That is the bottom line.  But if we were to compare Sansa to someone like Cersei, she is actually not that bad of a person.  Sansa is a much better person than Cersei but yet, I dislike Sansa more than I dislike Cersei.  Funny, because they are actually quite similar in both of them are selfish and want power for the wrong reasons.  Sansa is more annoying to me.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I don't like Sansa.  I never have and I don't think I will ever do.  She is just not a character that appeals to me.  That is the bottom line.  But if we were to compare Sansa to someone like Cersei, she is actually not that bad of a person.  Sansa is a much better person than Cersei but yet, I dislike Sansa more than I dislike Cersei.  Funny, because they are actually quite similar in both of them are selfish and want power for the wrong reasons.  Sansa is more annoying to me.  

Me neither.  I will never really like her, she will never compare favorably to any of her other siblings or anyone else in her family, in my opinion.  But other than very, very superficial comparisons of being selfish and creating the reality that suits her selfishness like Cersei, they aren't alike.  Sansa, while selfish and passive, is not a bad person.  Cersei is a very, very, very bad person.  Sansa is the classic go along, get along type who goes with the flow, only once in a while does she take a risky action.  But then, I probably hate Cersei more than any other character in the series.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, I'm curious how you can not hate Sansa without being blind? 

Blind hate is like the fan who insisted Sansa deserved to beaten by Joffrey, it's passed the point of genuine criticism to flat out bashing. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Blind hate is like the fan who insisted Sansa deserved to beaten by Joffrey, it's passed the point of genuine criticism to flat out bashing. 

 

I mean you're kidding right? I've written some pretty long posts about my logic, equating me to someone supporting woman beating is both a fallacy and petty. I simply answered the question in the op.

Also, having seen no explanation for why to like her, I have to assume you suffer from blind love. Which is fine, romantic even. It's a fictional character, do what makes you happy, but don't pretend it makes sense.

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I mean you're kidding right? I've written some pretty long posts about my logic, equating me to someone supporting woman beating is both a fallacy and petty. I simply answered the question in the op.

Also, having seen no explanation for why to like her, I have to assume you suffer from blind love. Which is fine, romantic even. It's a fictional character, do what makes you happy, but don't pretend it makes sense.

Perhaps not to like her, but pity her?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On October 26, 2017 at 10:42 PM, ravenous reader said:

Yes, that's why GRRM had Sansa faced with having witnessed an atrocity (the Trident incident), in response to which she chose to 'sit on the fence,' feign ignorance, and 'not take sides' -- which, of course, is always a way of taking sides, or acting (paradoxically, without acting) in the end...  In effect, she chose the Lannisters over her own family, to save her own skin.  As a 'reward' for this non-committal, self-serving, and indeed disloyal behaviour, GRRM had her wolf murdered by her father.  It's clear what GRRM thinks of assuming that 'neutral' stance of 'survival'.  He is one of the most morally judgmental writers I've read -- so I just smile when people go on about how 'grey' and 'morally relative' he is!

I'm not convinced that GRRM is into punishment of characters. He's more into punishment of readers. But he certainly makes Sansa suffer. However other characters suffer far worse. The direwolf's demise is a logical consequence of Sansa's inability to bear true witness, her cowardice dooms the beast. I'm not sure it's meant to prove anything philosophical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/22/2017 at 6:39 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

I don’t hate any of the ASOIAF characters. Hate is a harsh word. This topic is old.

Little girl Sansa is selfish and naïve, much like her sister Arya except in a different way. They lived in a Lords home with no idea what awaited them outside of WF. Much like Eddard did not know the wheeling and dealings of KL.

The Stark girls are children. Ten to 13 years of age. They are not Massie or Sophie.

I'll use this quote from the 3rd post in this topic.

I read this thread because it is here... but it is as tedious as the lack of a new book from grrm.

The twincest thread also, correspondingly, spends enormous amount of time and energy to paint characters as evil, unprincipled, bland, blank, (low PSI - inside joke), malformed, misinformed, and generally, not capable of being "suitable" characters in a work of fiction. Or as evil, unprincipled, bland, blank... characters that offend modern views, or represent a fictional view of an expression of brutal, medieval stuff.

Oh, well, my story of Hot Pie's experience, in four part harmony, is not quite working. see 

for some illumination. Meanwhile, posts like I am making are going to be ignored - "makes sense", but F it, must argue and argue and argue...

Cheers,

bill

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

I'll use this quote from the 3rd post in this topic.

I read this thread because it is here... but it is as tedious as the lack of a new book from grrm.

The twincest thread also, correspondingly, spends enormous amount of time and energy to paint characters as evil, unprincipled, bland, blank, (low PSI - inside joke), malformed, misinformed, and generally, not capable of being "suitable" characters in a work of fiction. Or as evil, unprincipled, bland, blank... characters that offend modern views, or represent a fictional view of an expression of brutal, medieval stuff.

Oh, well, my story of Hot Pie's experience, in four part harmony, is not quite working. see 

for some illumination. Meanwhile, posts like I am making are going to be ignored - "makes sense", but F it, must argue and argue and argue...

Cheers,

bill

;)

Like the author of ASOIAF Arlo is old now.  Arlo is a better story teller than Martin. I guess he got it from his pop. For fun and for free

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's normal and natural to dislike or hate certain characters. We can't like everyone.

 

I think that's  one of the reasons people dislike Sansa, they just dislike her as a character or find her boring (while understanding her).

 

Then there are people who I feel don't understand her but get stuck on one of her behaviors (like her behavior in AGOT) and keep disliking her for that. It's really annoying especially when people claim specific reasons they dislike her and I think to myself that they probably skipped her chapters (a reminder to everyone who says Sansa didn't do anything and was too passive, Sansa took a risk to meet Dontos in the godswood if it meant escaping. She could have just stayed in her room and not bothered, but when the opportunity arose she took it. There's not much else she can really do in her situation. Let's be real)

 

I personally like her and relate to her in regards to some stuff and I do think she has some of the best and more exciting chapters in both AGOT and ACOK. (Hand's tourney was a very nice chapter). But then I'm not allergic to feminine female characters. :P

 

Still puzzles me people blame Sansa for everything that happened to Ned. Ned was also as naive as Sansa to confront Cersei BEFORE ensuring his daughters were safe. How do people keep missing this? Sansa goes to Cersei thinking Cersei is a kind person (and not knowing what is going on back stage, how Ned is in KL to investigate Jon Arryn's murder and finding out about Cersei's bastards) and Ned on the other hand, goes to Cersei to tell her what he knows BELIEVING she'll act the same way as Catelyn would (choose to protect her kids by leaving). But Cersei reacts unpredictably for Ned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×