Who was the rightful king in the TWoFK?

[TheDrunkenGiant]

It really depends on the legitimacy of Baratheon rule. If the common folk, lords and the septons of the realm accept it then without proof of parentage Joffrey is the rightful king. With proof or an admission from Cersei or Jamie, then Stannis would be the rightful king. If the Baratheon are still believed to be Ursurpers by the majority, then the rest is moot and Danerys is the righful monarch. 

[Bernie Mac]

30 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Do you mean Cregan's daughters not inheriting and Jaehaerys choosing Viserys over Rhaenys? That's because they were women so were set aside in favour of a male relative, not the same as Viserys superseding his nephew. 

I was referring to your comment

 

3 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Inheritance works so that the eldest son and his children come before the second son, it's like how Prince George is William's heir rather than Harry 

Cregan's heir was Rickon and his children were dropped from  the succession line in favour of their uncles. 

Jaehaerys heir was Aemon, whose child and grandchildren (including a grandson) were dropped from the succession line in favour of their cousins. 

 

The rules get thrown out of the window when it gets beyond the oldest living son inheriting from the king, there is often less than smooth transitions and the eventual monarch will have more to do with that person's (and their regents and other supporters) influence rather than any kind of succession law. 

[Megorova]

Rightful king was Renly.

When Steffon died, his oldest son Robert became head of Baratheon family, and Lord of Stormlands. When Robert became King of 7K, he named Renly as his successor, and Renly became Lord of Stormlands, while Stannis was given title of Dragonstone's ruler. Robert moved Stannis back in succession line. He had a right to do that, as a head of their family, and also as ruler of 7K.

Head of the family has a right to decide who will be his/her heir. He/she can shuffle people in succession line, change order of succession, or totally remove someone by disinheriting him/her, or to name as successor, someone who is not even part of the family. And it's all totally legal.

King can make people knights, lords, give them titles, lands and castles. But he can also take it all away. Also totally legal.

Even though Stannis was second oldest after Robert, in line of succession of Baratheon family, he was made the last. He could have a legal right to claim Iron Throne as Robert's successor, only if Renly died, and died without having children, or naming someone as his successor.

Though not all people agreed with Robert's decision. And not all people in Stormlands were happy with their new Lord being gay. So after Robert's death, some of them swore their loyalty to Stannis. Even though Renly was their rightful lord, and also next in line of Crown succession, by decision of King Robert (if there will be no children of his own, to succeed after his death). One of the reasons why Renly married, immidiately after Robert's death, is to pacify some of his people, show them that they don't need to be worried, that he may leave them without a future heir.

Probably Ned Stark was one of those people, that thought that Robert shouldn't have punished Stannis, by lowering his rank in succession line, just because he failed during rebellion, and Baratheon's castle was taken into siege by Targaryen loyalists. That's why after Robert's death, he informed Stannis, and not Renly, that Robert's children are actually wasn't his. Ned ignored Robert's decision, and decided to support Stannis' claim. Probably one of the reasons for that, is that Ned was a very traditional kind of person. He didn't wanted gay king, and also he thought that by customs and traditions, older brother should have a higher standing than younger brother. And also, because Ned and Robert knew each other for a long time, and were close friends, Ned didn't seriously thought of Robert as 7K's King. So King Robert's decision, about which one of Baratheon brothers should be his successor, Ned simply dismissed. And his best friend's, head of Baratheon family Robert's decision, Ned also cast aside, because he didn't agreed with it.

By right of birth, Stannis had higher status than Renly. This was changed by Robert's decision. But when Robert died, Stannis thought, why should he obey to this decision, if Robert is dead, and not a head of their family anymore? Thus he announced himself King of 7K. But by law, Renly had more right to become next King. Robert - King of 7K and head of Baratheon family, chose Renly as his successor.

 

If Robert was rightful King of 7K, then next after him was Renly. But if Robert's rebellion didn't gave him a legal status, as King of 7K by right of conquest, and he was an usurper, then rightful King is Aegon Targaryen / Jon Snow.

[purple-eyes]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rightful king was Renly.

When Steffon died, his oldest son Robert became head of Baratheon family, and Lord of Stormlands. When Robert became King of 7K, he named Renly as his successor, and Renly became Lord of Stormlands, while Stannis was given title of Dragonstone's ruler. Robert moved Stannis back in succession line. He had a right to do that, as a head of their family, and also as ruler of 7K.

Head of the family has a right to decide who will be his/her heir. He/she can shuffle people in succession line, change order of succession, or totally remove someone by disinheriting him/her, or to name as successor, someone who is not even part of the family. And it's all totally legal.

King can make people knights, lords, give them titles, lands and castles. But he can also take it all away. Also totally legal.

Even though Stannis was second oldest after Robert, in line of succession of Baratheon family, he was made the last. He could have a legal right to claim Iron Throne as Robert's successor, only if Renly died, and died without having children, or naming someone as his successor.

Though not all people agreed with Robert's decision. And not all people in Stormlands were happy with their new Lord being gay. So after Robert's death, some of them swore their loyalty to Stannis. Even though Renly was their rightful lord, and also next in line of Crown succession, by decision of King Robert (if there will be no children of his own, to succeed after his death). One of the reasons why Renly married, immidiately after Robert's death, is to pacify some of his people, show them that they don't need to be worried, that he may leave them without a future heir.

Probably Ned Stark was one of those people, that thought that Robert shouldn't have punished Stannis, by lowering his rank in succession line, just because he failed during rebellion, and Baratheon's castle was taken into siege by Targaryen loyalists. That's why after Robert's death, he informed Stannis, and not Renly, that Robert's children are actually wasn't his. Ned ignored Robert's decision, and decided to support Stannis' claim. Probably one of the reasons for that, is that Ned was a very traditional kind of person. He didn't wanted gay king, and also he thought that by customs and traditions, older brother should have a higher standing than younger brother. And also, because Ned and Robert knew each other for a long time, and were close friends, Ned didn't seriously thought of Robert as 7K's King. So King Robert's decision, about which one of Baratheon brothers should be his successor, Ned simply dismissed. And his best friend's, head of Baratheon family Robert's decision, Ned also cast aside, because he didn't agreed with it.

By right of birth, Stannis had higher status than Renly. This was changed by Robert's decision. But when Robert died, Stannis thought, why should he obey to this decision, if Robert is dead, and not a head of their family anymore? Thus he announced himself King of 7K. But by law, Renly had more right to become next King. Robert - King of 7K and head of Baratheon family, chose Renly as his successor.

 

If Robert was rightful King of 7K, then next after him was Renly. But if Robert's rebellion didn't gave him a legal status, as King of 7K by right of conquest, and he was an usurper, then rightful King is Aegon Targaryen / Jon Snow.

I doubt Renly is rightful heir of Robert. In fact, some people say Stannis got Dragonstone because he is the heir of Robert (until he has his own children by Cersei). After all, dragonstone is the trafitional seat for the heir of iron throne. 

[Pikachu101]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cregan's heir was Rickon and his children were dropped from  the succession line in favour of their uncles. 

Rickon was Cregan's son not brother, after he died the North went to his half brother Jonnel and then his other brother Brandon. Jonnel and Brandon were chosen because Rickon only had daughters so in tradition with Salic Laws the North goes to the closest male relative. But like I said before that wouldn't have been an issue for Aegon because he was a boy and the son of Viserys' older brother so comes before his uncle in the line of succession to the Targaryen throne.

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jaehaerys heir was Aemon, whose child and grandchildren (including a grandson) were dropped from the succession line in favour of their cousins. 

Aemon's only child was girl so it makes sense for Jaehaerys to favour her uncle but that doesn't mean it's normal for a king to supersede his brother's son.

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The rules get thrown out of the window when it gets beyond the oldest living son inheriting from the king, there is often less than smooth transitions and the eventual monarch will have more to do with that person's (and their regents and other supporters) influence rather than any kind of succession law. 

I can agree with that, but I don't think anyone saw Viserys as Rhaegar's heir when Rhaegar had a son, I also don't think there's ever been a case where an uncle was chosen over his older brother's son.

[DarkBastard]

14 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

If you read the series more attentively, you'll observe that such concept as "no longer has a claim" is as good as non-existent. Why do you think the likes of Bolton and Lannister give a rat's ass about Stark blood, if they already won the war and cut Robb's head off?

No, "Right of Conquest" is not a magic phrase which, when chanted with just the right intonation after a battle, irrevocably invalidates the losing side's claim. Or their children's claim. Or their children's children's. "Claim" is a thing one can have even when his arse doesn't at the moment occupy the seat in question. And more than one person (or one branch) can simultaneously have claims to the same throne. Both in Westeros as in European history. Lancaster and York. Targaryen and Baratheon.

You are incorrect, and here is why:

 A "claim" to the throne is part of succession.  If your family is deposed or ousted, your claim is gone, as you are no longer in the line of succession.  

In conquest, the danger in allowing the children of the deposed king to live is not that they have a claim, but that they may have supporters who will help them retake the throne through conquest (their only way back to power).  That is why Robert wanted all the Targaryens dead, half the realm supported them during the rebellion, and many noble houses were made wealthy under their rule.  You'll notice he wasn't afraid of them coming back and claiming "I'm the rightful heir", he was afraid they would come back with an army to retake the throne through conquest.

In the books, Targaryen supporters call him "usurper" because they feel that what he did was illegal. 

"There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me usurper". -King Robert Baratheon to Lord Eddard Stark

To be an actual "usurper", you must seize power without right.  Renly would have been a usurper if Littlefinger had convinced Ned to support his ascent to the throne (not through conquest, but seating him in the manner suggested by Baelish).  Ned refused to usurp Stannis, but if he had, Stannis would have had rightful claim to the throne.

If you look at what I posted previously, "right of conquest" is a legitimate right, and if you "read more attentively" there is nothing stated in the books to the contrary.

[DarkBastard]

16 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Did you not read the quote I was responding to?

I didn't say that any Targaryen had a claim...Other people on this thread did.  My point was--even if you were to say Viserys had a claim, he was dead already.  So your point is irrelevant because I had already agreed with you. 

Got it, I misunderstood what you wrote.  

[The Commentator]

17 hours ago, TheDrunkenGiant said:

It really depends on the legitimacy of Baratheon rule. If the common folk, lords and the septons of the realm accept it then without proof of parentage Joffrey is the rightful king. With proof or an admission from Cersei or Jamie, then Stannis would be the rightful king. If the Baratheon are still believed to be Ursurpers by the majority, then the rest is moot and Danerys is the righful monarch. 

Good points

[Orphalesion]

Nobody, the point of the story is that Monarchy is an incredibly flawed and that none of the so called "Kings" or the "Queen" really has the right to bring pain and destruction over the smallfolk only because they want an uncomfortable chair.

On 10/25/2017 at 11:37 PM, Yucef Menaerys said:

That depends, to the readers? Probably Stannis

NO!

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rightful king was Renly.

When Steffon died, his oldest son Robert became head of Baratheon family, and Lord of Stormlands. When Robert became King of 7K, he named Renly as his successor, and Renly became Lord of Stormlands, while Stannis was given title of Dragonstone's ruler. Robert moved Stannis back in succession line. He had a right to do that, as a head of their family, and also as ruler of 7K.

Head of the family has a right to decide who will be his/her heir. He/she can shuffle people in succession line, change order of succession, or totally remove someone by disinheriting him/her, or to name as successor, someone who is not even part of the family. And it's all totally legal.

King can make people knights, lords, give them titles, lands and castles. But he can also take it all away. Also totally legal.

Even though Stannis was second oldest after Robert, in line of succession of Baratheon family, he was made the last. He could have a legal right to claim Iron Throne as Robert's successor, only if Renly died, and died without having children, or naming someone as his successor.

Though not all people agreed with Robert's decision. And not all people in Stormlands were happy with their new Lord being gay. So after Robert's death, some of them swore their loyalty to Stannis. Even though Renly was their rightful lord, and also next in line of Crown succession, by decision of King Robert (if there will be no children of his own, to succeed after his death). One of the reasons why Renly married, immidiately after Robert's death, is to pacify some of his people, show them that they don't need to be worried, that he may leave them without a future heir.

Probably Ned Stark was one of those people, that thought that Robert shouldn't have punished Stannis, by lowering his rank in succession line, just because he failed during rebellion, and Baratheon's castle was taken into siege by Targaryen loyalists. That's why after Robert's death, he informed Stannis, and not Renly, that Robert's children are actually wasn't his. Ned ignored Robert's decision, and decided to support Stannis' claim. Probably one of the reasons for that, is that Ned was a very traditional kind of person. He didn't wanted gay king, and also he thought that by customs and traditions, older brother should have a higher standing than younger brother. And also, because Ned and Robert knew each other for a long time, and were close friends, Ned didn't seriously thought of Robert as 7K's King. So King Robert's decision, about which one of Baratheon brothers should be his successor, Ned simply dismissed. And his best friend's, head of Baratheon family Robert's decision, Ned also cast aside, because he didn't agreed with it.

By right of birth, Stannis had higher status than Renly. This was changed by Robert's decision. But when Robert died, Stannis thought, why should he obey to this decision, if Robert is dead, and not a head of their family anymore? Thus he announced himself King of 7K. But by law, Renly had more right to become next King. Robert - King of 7K and head of Baratheon family, chose Renly as his successor.

 

If Robert was rightful King of 7K, then next after him was Renly. But if Robert's rebellion didn't gave him a legal status, as King of 7K by right of conquest, and he was an usurper, then rightful King is Aegon Targaryen / Jon Snow.

 

 

Where'd you get that claim from, that Robert named Renly his successor because he gave him the Stormlands?

[Dood]

17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rightful king was Renly.

Head of the family has a right to decide who will be his/her heir. He/she can shuffle people in succession line, change order of succession, or totally remove someone by disinheriting him/her, or to name as successor, someone who is not even part of the family. And it's all totally legal.

It's been said before, the seven kingdoms seemingly use agnatic primogeniture, and under that custom, not even a king could change the line of succession.

 

[Wolf of the Steppes]

5 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

Got it, I misunderstood what you wrote.  

No problem.  I've done the same before.  Glad we agree.

It seems that mostly everyone on this topic has some legitimate point of view for believing their version of "rightful".  Just as you so eloquently pointed out by quoting Obi Wan Kenobi.  I'll take that further and quote another.

Quote

"Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor's Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?"

Tyrion cocked his head sideways. "Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?"

Varys smiled. "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."--A Clash of Kings - Tyrion II

"Rightful" is such a legalistic term.  Right to rule was determined by power.  So rightful is whomever men believe to be.  And there are many different points of view on this, thus the war.  Thus the discussion here.  Rightful to me is whoever wins. 

Quote

When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

 

[Megorova]

21 hours ago, Dood said:

It's been said before, the seven kingdoms seemingly use agnatic primogeniture, and under that custom, not even a king could change the line of succession.

Maybe King can't do that, but the head of a family can. Furthermore it happened in ASOIAF and in GOT.

According to their succession laws, after Crown Prince Rhaegar's death, next after him in succession line was his son, Aegon Martell. But Aerys declared Viserys as his heir.

Even though Ramsay Bolton was legitimazed, he became worried when it became known that his stepmother gave birth to a boy, and killed his father. Because even though Ramsay was a firstborn son, and he also became legitimate son, if Rosse wanted, he could have made that baby his heir, overstepping Ramsay.

22 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Where'd you get that claim from, that Robert named Renly his successor because he gave him the Stormlands?

Yes. But also because Renly was absolutely sure that he is the rightful King of 7K (based on the fact that Robert's children turned out to be products of incest, and not actually his. Which means that, if Robert had no legitimate children, then next King supposed to be his successor, and that's Renly. Because Stannis, was 'demoted' because of his failure.). And it was totally unexpected for him, when Stannis attacked Storm's End. Because Renly was Lord of Stormlands, and Robert's successor. So he didn't expected that Stannis will suddenly claim Iron Throne, or will try to seize Storm's End, and take back his birth rights, to be second in line after Robert.

[DarkBastard]

7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Yes. But also because Renly was absolutely sure that he is the rightful King of 7K (based on the fact that Robert's children turned out to be products of incest, and not actually his. Which means that, if Robert had no legitimate children, then next King supposed to be his successor, and that's Renly. Because Stannis, was 'demoted' because of his failure.). And it was totally unexpected for him, when Stannis attacked Storm's End. Because Renly was Lord of Stormlands, and Robert's successor. So he didn't expected that Stannis will suddenly claim Iron Throne, or will try to seize Storm's End, and take back his birth rights, to be second in line after Robert.

This is way off course.  It was said multiple times by multiple characters that Stannis was still the next in line to the throne if the kids are not Roberts.  Stannis considered the granting of Dragonstone rather than Storm's End as a slight, but then again he saw many things as a slight.  Nowhere in the text of the books does it indicate that Renly was ahead of Stannis in the line of succession.

[Dood]

53 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Maybe King can't do that, but the head of a family can. Furthermore it happened in ASOIAF and in GOT.

According to their succession laws, after Crown Prince Rhaegar's death, next after him in succession line was his son, Aegon Martell. But Aerys declared Viserys as his heir.

Even though Ramsay Bolton was legitimazed, he became worried when it became known that his stepmother gave birth to a boy, and killed his father. Because even though Ramsay was a firstborn son, and he also became legitimate son, if Rosse wanted, he could have made that baby his heir, overstepping Ramsay.

The custom is really hard to bypass : Tarly had to literally force his son to take the black to remove him from his line of succession, had Sam refused, he would have had to kill him.

About Aerys, he really could declare anything he wanted, once dead, Aegon would have been crowned, basically because customs were more important than a dead king testament in medieval times.

About Ramsey : not really, it's because legitimised bastards were still outranked by "true born". I'm not even sure if they could inherit anything in the case where they are the only available sons after a lord/king death.

Quick example : Louis XIV of France tried to create a law to allow legitimised bastard to inherit in the case where no true born alive at his death, however, when he died, the Parlement just removed the law and forbade to legitimized bastards to inherit the crown.

To my knowledge, the only thing being legitimised brought, was giving the bastard enough "nobility" to marry a noblewoman, and create a new house.

[Bernie Mac]

52 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

Yes. But also because Renly was absolutely sure that he is the rightful King of 7K (based on the fact that Robert's children turned out to be products of incest, and not actually his. Which means that, if Robert had no legitimate children, then next King supposed to be his successor, and that's Renly. Because Stannis, was 'demoted' because of his failure.).

Renly was usurping the Crown from his nephews and Stannis. He happily admits this. He thinks he would make the best king and  cites Robert's lack of being next in the succession line as a parallel. 

He does not think he is the 'righful' heir, he thinks Joffrey is. 

[SunfyreTheGolden]

On 31.10.2017 at 3:18 AM, Megorova said:

 If Robert was rightful King of 7K, then next after him was Renly. But if Robert's rebellion didn't gave him a legal status, as King of 7K by right of conquest, and he was an usurper, then rightful King is Aegon Targaryen / Jon Snow.

2

Man, this page of the wiki should not contain the spoilers from the 6th and 7th seasons. Because this page only contains information given by books and GRRM. Please be more careful next time. 

[Wolf of the Steppes]

Yep.  Sorry, @Megorova, but it may be time for a re-read.

Quote

"No," Ned admitted. "I know the secret Jon Arryn was murdered to protect. Robert will leave no trueborn son behind him. Joffrey and Tommen are Jaime Lannister's bastards, born of his incestuous union with the queen."

Littlefinger lifted an eyebrow. "Shocking," he said in a tone that suggested he was not shocked at all. "The girl as well? No doubt. So when the king dies …"

"The throne by rights passes to Lord Stannis, the elder of Robert's two brothers."

Lord Petyr stroked his pointed beard as he considered the matter. "So it would seem. Unless …"

"Unless, my lord? There is no seeming to this. Stannis is the heir. Nothing can change that."................................................................................................................

Littlefinger sighed. "I fear I did forget, my lord. Pray forgive me. For a moment I did not remember that I was talking to a Stark." His mouth quirked. "So it will be Stannis, and war?"

"It is not a choice. Stannis is the heir."--A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

 

[Pikachu101]

On 31/10/2017 at 0:18 AM, Megorova said:

then rightful King is Aegon Targaryen / Jon Snow.

Please don't pollute this thread with HBO's show, besides even if R+L=J is revealed Jon still doesn't have a claim because 1) he's a bastard, 2) the Targaryens lost the throne and 3) he has an older brother; the actual Aegon Targaryen.

23 minutes ago, Dood said:

About Aerys, he really could declare anything he wanted, once dead, Aegon would have been crowned, basically because customs were more important than a dead king testament in medieval times.

Which was why everyone ignored Viserys' wishes to crown Rhaenyra 

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

Robert won the Iron Throne the same way the Targaryens did: conquest. Since Robert left no trueborn heirs, the true King is Stannis.