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Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues


Larry of the Lawn

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***Contains spoilers from THE UNHOLY CONSULT****

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This is the perpetual thread devoted to the works of R. Scott Bakker, primarily the books in The Second Apocalypse series, the first novel is The Darkness that Comes Before, the seventh novel was published on July 4, 2017 and is The Unholy Consult.  It is currently available for purchase.

This thread is for the series through The Unholy Consult and contains spoilers through that novel.

The series is called The Second Apocalypse and is currently comprised of two sub-series, a trilogy and a quartet. Potentially, there will be a third series, although the author has stated that the quartet completes his original vision for the story. 

The first trilogy of books is subtitled The Prince of Nothing these three books are:

  1. The Darkness that Comes Before
  2. The Warrior Prophet
  3. The Thousandfold Thought

The second quartet of books is subtitled The Aspect Emperor, these four books are:

  1. The Judging Eye
  2. The White-Luck Warrior
  3. The Great Ordeal
  4. The Unholy Consult 

There is a third set of books presumably planned subtitled The No God.

The Unholy Consult also includes an expanded Appendix/Encyclopedic Glossary. The original Glossary exists currently only at the end of the third book, The Thousandfold Thought. 

Additionally, Bakker has published three short stories, The False Sun and The Four Revelations of Cinial'jin on Bakker's Blog Three Pound Brain(and now also as appendices in The Unholy Consult) and The Knife of Many Hands, which is available for purchase. There is also another short story, The Carathayan, available for purchase in this anthology (along with a introduction by Bakker)This thread contains spoilers for these publications. The False Sun is the most discussed work of these three shorts.

Since Bakker's writing uses layers of revelation, newcomers are strongly advised to finish the books before coming here; otherwise the spoilers will rot your soul. Eternally.

Of potential interest, Bakker did stop by the board shortly after the release of The Great Ordeal and did answer several questions.  That discussion can be found here.

Most denizens of this thread have also read Bakker's non-fantasy novels Neuropath and Disciple of the Dog, but the spoiler policy is unclear. You are advised to hide crucial plot points in those novels.

Thanks to Happy Ent for the intro to the thread.

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Since Bakker's writing uses layers of revelation, newcomers are strongly advised to finish the books before coming here; otherwise the spoilers will rot your soul. Eternally.

We might have to revise this

8 minutes ago, Lutarez said:

Will we ever get an adaptation that not only does the series justice but it polishes the rough edges ? 

 

If yes, how would you do it ? What would you cut/add ?

Well, Amazon bought the option and then ditched it in favor of doing basically anything else. Right now a story about an explicitly sexist world where God is horrible may not be the great sell to the general masses. I thought @Mark Erikson had a great idea to focus on the sociopathic monk thing first and foremost as the first ep, and skip a lot of the other bits. 

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GoT struggles with the budget of the big battle scenes, and the battles are bigger and more important in Second Apocalypse than in GoT.  There's no way you can get the budget you'd need to do this series justice, because it lacks the widespread appeal even of GoT.

Really it has to be animated to keep the budget reasonable.  Something like Netflix's Castlevania series but longer might be possible.  Even still it is hard to imagine it being both faithful to the books.  Too much rape, too anti-religion, and too few likeable characters. 

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On 10/31/2017 at 4:06 PM, Lutarez said:

Will we ever get an adaptation that not only does the series justice but it polishes the rough edges ? 

 

If yes, how would you do it ? What would you cut/add ?

I'd say the starship troopers approach is the best one, ignore everything about what the author believes and turn it into an effective and entertaining story that (probably) satirizes the source material as well as society.

would you like to know more?

 

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2 hours ago, Dora Vee said:

I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of Inchoroi/Non Men ended up being ciphrang. 

I would be surprised if there were any Inchie ciphrang - they seem to be an avoid-damnation-machine weapon race.   I think becoming a Ciphrang takes some kind of mad passion like an all consuming hate or fury.  See Kosoter and Cnauir.  I don't think the inchoroi are tortured enough to be Ciphrang.

Nonmen, however, yeah for sure.

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2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

I would be surprised if there were any Inchie ciphrang - they seem to be an avoid-damnation-machine weapon race.   I think becoming a Ciphrang takes some kind of mad passion like an all consuming hate or fury.  See Kosoter and Cnauir.  I don't think the inchoroi are tortured enough to be Ciphrang.

Nonmen, however, yeah for sure.

Or, pure evil or willingness to sacrifice anything (but Esme), to gain what you need. So, if venture to say that Kelhus would be closer to a God than a Ciphrang. And, might not be either, but hiding his soul in decapitants. You heard it here first :tinfoil hat:, Kellhus translocates to the head tied in Sarl's beard, formerly known as The Captain. One head is as good as an other. 

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3 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

I would be surprised if there were any Inchie ciphrang - they seem to be an avoid-damnation-machine weapon race.   I think becoming a Ciphrang takes some kind of mad passion like an all consuming hate or fury.  See Kosoter and Cnauir.  I don't think the inchoroi are tortured enough to be Ciphrang.

Nonmen, however, yeah for sure.

IIRC Bakker outright confirmed that Gin'Yursis is a Ciphrang. 

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On 11/11/2017 at 9:11 AM, larrytheimp said:

 I think becoming a Ciphrang takes some kind of mad passion like an all consuming hate or fury.  See Kosoter and Cnauir.  I don't think the inchoroi are tortured enough to be Ciphrang.

Genuinely are a race of lovers rather than haters?

 

On 11/11/2017 at 0:55 AM, Let's Get Kraken said:

I don't think becoming a ciphrang (or a god?) is just about being super-damned

Pretty sure Aurang has done many more things over his millennia than Cnaiur has done over his decades.

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On 11/1/2017 at 0:06 AM, Lutarez said:

Will we ever get an adaptation that not only does the series justice but it polishes the rough edges ? 

 

If yes, how would you do it ? What would you cut/add ?

Everyone here would love to see an adaptation of it, but I doubt it can happen. It is a very harsh world when even the most unimaginable things happen, and when the No God will most likely win. A TV show like that is doomed too fail, IMO.

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15 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

@Callan S. @Triskele

At the top of page 360 in the U.S. Hardcover.

What's interesting to me in that is how the only word italicized is 'witch', which implies to me that this is the reason she's a ciphrang - because she is a woman practicing sorcery, which is really really bad in the grand good place / bad place scoring. 

(an aside: The Good Place has a more nuanced and more reasonable system for afterlife than Bakker's books, which makes it really good. Y'all should watch it.)

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I think becoming a Ciphrang relates to the size of the soul.  Mimara comments that Cnaiur literally has a larger soul than regular people, he's a shard not a sliver.  The Consult members, despite their tenacity, either apparently possess small souls and so can't get prevent getting eaten - or becoming a Ciphrang is still unpleasant enough to want to avoid damnation.

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