Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

As I've said before, I take the AMA with a grain of salt. But, if others are using as proof that Kellhus was caught completely unawares, from Bakker's comments, the what about "Kellhus is dead but not done."?

That means that he had contingencies in place. Oh, and the Outside is not shut as of yet. Not even close. Plenty to speculate on.

[Callan S.]

Just gunna say, was not made angry by AMA.

Also found ending to be fine. If he had been mysterious about whether the ordeal got to Golgoterath, or merely alluded to what happened in the golden room and didn't say - if he'd only alluded to a dragon fight and never got into the details, if what happened to the ordeal at the end was left to some kind of BS 'well what do you think happened', I think that would have found that all a lot of bullshit. But he is actually explicit about a lot of action pieces and how they resolve. A main character failed. It's funny, Bakker said we'd all need therapy at the end, but I actually found the failure strangely therapeutic. It's like the promise of failure in stories is there, but the promise is never kept. Finally a story that paid on this promise.

I get the apparently ragged 'plot threads', like Mimara getting there then the judging eye doesn't spot Kellhus. There's a reviewer who refers to a 'shaggy dog story'. But to me it's not a 'plot thread' that she got there - it's just what the characters did. The judging eye doesn't fire at will, it's random. I don't know if Bakker's 'see meaning in a new way' stuff or however he put it is about having events that just don't pan out, even if you traveling for hundreds of miles and through hell even to get there. But it's valid. And frankly Tolkien did it first. Frodo. Failed. Sure, we have Gollum, who pretty much everyone wanted to kill, end up being a dues ex (who also failed, essentially).

But I wonder what it looks like from the eyes of an optimist - I've heard people say they literally thought Frodo would always make it, it was just a matter of how much he suffered along the way.

I wonder if the books suffered from a lack of perception of differing world views - Bakker is a self confessed radical pessimist. From an optimistic viewpoint, the quest to destroy the ring - it succeeded! Yes! Because despite Frodo failing, despite Gollum basically trying to snatch it and by dumb chance getting it and falling in the lava, the optimist sees this as a win. Scratching together victory from the fragments at hand.

But at the foot of Golgoterath, the optimistic are left with dust. Much like the scene with Cnaiur, where is stands in the sea, thrashing this way and that, demanding 'Where are the paths!'

Is anyone really going to buy into adopting pessimism, like some kind of religious transformation, at that point?

 

[Dora Vee]

Quote

Bakker said we'd all need therapy at the end

I needed therapy a whole lot sooner than that. Thankfully, the ending WAS my therapy. >:)

 

 

[Kalbear]

13 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

As I've said before, I take the AMA with a grain of salt. But, if others are using as proof that Kellhus was caught completely unawares, from Bakker's comments, the what about "Kellhus is dead but not done."?

I can have life insurance because I think I might die to something unforeseen, but me dying doesn't prove that I foresaw it.

13 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

That means that he had contingencies in place. Oh, and the Outside is not shut as of yet. Not even close. Plenty to speculate on.

How is the Outside not shut to the passage of souls? What evidence do you have of this? We have textual evidence to the contrary - namely, Mimara's stillborn second child. 

The point was never to shut the Outside from the gods, and point of fact we know for certain that while the No-God walks the gods can interact with humans as they could before - they're just entirely blind to what's going on, or as Bakker put it struck with metaphysical Alzheimers. None of that changes the flow of souls. 

[Hello World]

16 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

That means that he had contingencies in place. Oh, and the Outside is not shut as of yet. Not even close. Plenty to speculate on.

I don't think it necessarily means he had contingencies in place, even if we're taking Bakker's word for granted here. Oh, and the outside being shut or not is besides the point, there is not much to speculate on regarding the next series beyond making pure guesses.

[redeagl]

On 11/19/2017 at 10:36 PM, Hello World said:

Game of Thrones?

LUL.

[Larry of the Lawn]

23 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Just gunna say, was not made angry by AMA.

Also found ending to be fine. If he had been mysterious about whether the ordeal got to Golgoterath, or merely alluded to what happened in the golden room and didn't say - if he'd only alluded to a dragon fight and never got into the details, if what happened to the ordeal at the end was left to some kind of BS 'well what do you think happened', I think that would have found that all a lot of bullshit. But he is actually explicit about a lot of action pieces and how they resolve. A main character failed. It's funny, Bakker said we'd all need therapy at the end, but I actually found the failure strangely therapeutic. It's like the promise of failure in stories is there, but the promise is never kept. Finally a story that paid on this promise.

I get the apparently ragged 'plot threads', like Mimara getting there then the judging eye doesn't spot Kellhus. There's a reviewer who refers to a 'shaggy dog story'. But to me it's not a 'plot thread' that she got there - it's just what the characters did. The judging eye doesn't fire at will, it's random. I don't know if Bakker's 'see meaning in a new way' stuff or however he put it is about having events that just don't pan out, even if you traveling for hundreds of miles and through hell even to get there. But it's valid. And frankly Tolkien did it first. Frodo. Failed. Sure, we have Gollum, who pretty much everyone wanted to kill, end up being a dues ex (who also failed, essentially).

But I wonder what it looks like from the eyes of an optimist - I've heard people say they literally thought Frodo would always make it, it was just a matter of how much he suffered along the way.

I wonder if the books suffered from a lack of perception of differing world views - Bakker is a self confessed radical pessimist. From an optimistic viewpoint, the quest to destroy the ring - it succeeded! Yes! Because despite Frodo failing, despite Gollum basically trying to snatch it and by dumb chance getting it and falling in the lava, the optimist sees this as a win. Scratching together victory from the fragments at hand.

But at the foot of Golgoterath, the optimistic are left with dust. Much like the scene with Cnaiur, where is stands in the sea, thrashing this way and that, demanding 'Where are the paths!'

Is anyone really going to buy into adopting pessimism, like some kind of religious transformation, at that point?

 

For me it wasn't even the 'what' part of the ending that I didn't like, it was the 'how'.  I just feel the plot and its execution (with Ishterebinth as a notable exception, and to a lesser extent the Koringhus parts) got sloppy in the last two books.  

I have no issue with the entire Ordeal perishing and failing. My issue is that all of these things that Bakker set up to be important, or that I think an attentive reader could be reasonably expected to consider important, turned out to be little more than window dressing.  This would include the Judging Eye, the Darkness that Comes before turning out to just be Kellhus being possessed by a god, the entire WLW and Sorwheel stuff turning out to be irrelevant beyond giving Lil Kel the realization that the gods can't see him.  

And then the shit that we got instead, like the hundred pages of Cannibalrapeapalooza 4132 and the MRA dragon.

Basically, the lack of activity, the lack of crazy theories being debated here is because they all turned out to be pointless, to the point that even speculating on whether or not Kellhus is going to play any future role, or whether or not Shae is controlling the Dunsult, or what's up with Crabicus, all seem so murky as to be not even worth it.  Even if you disregard everything Bakker has said outside the text, any question I have only feels worthy of a RAFO response.  And not in an 'I'm really excited to read the next one' kind of way.    maybe Bakker changed how I experience meaning with the last book, but he also changed how I anticipate his next book: with significantly less enthusiasm than before.

And the PoN and TAE are still fantastic.  But TAE could have been so much better and I genuinely think that either Bakker dropped the ball from TGO onward, or he did a really good job of faking it until then and it wasn't until TGO that the series' flaws became too obvious to ignore.  

Obviously this is just my opinion.

[Hello World]

24 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

or he did a really good job of faking it until then and it wasn't until TGO that the series' flaws became too obvious to ignore.  

That's what I've been thinking recently, in a way. So much of this series's greatness for me was based on the idea that in end there will be some mind-blowing mind-fucking revelations that will make all those years of waiting for answers worth it.

Quote

So what I want to say is that The Unholy Consult is where most of the burning questions will be revealed. I write books that many people love to hate: my hope is that after this latest set of reveals, the series will have earned their grudging respect as something genuinely unique and daring.

Not sure what set of reveals Bakker is thinking about, but for me, most of the burning questions not only were not answered, but turned out to be unimportant and were not addressed at all. In fact, entire plot lines were left unaddressed. And then his dismissal of some fans' complaints about this on TSA soon after the book was published is what upset me the most.

[Latan]

What questions did you have that were not answered?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

14 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Doesn't the JE being struck blind when Mimara looked at her pregnant belly imply that the child's prenatal body already had a soul attached to it? Is it ever actually stated that the No-God causes stillbirths by closing off the Outside? I thought that couldn't happen until Earwa was whittled down to 144,000 souls, and the Stillbirths were a way of keeping the population from replenishing itself.

Right, its a side effect. Its what they learned from the Inoculation of the Nonmen, when all the women died. (Sorry I do forget the name.)

[Kalbear]

14 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Doesn't the JE being struck blind when Mimara looked at her pregnant belly imply that the child's prenatal body already had a soul attached to it?

That was pre-No God though.

14 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Is it ever actually stated that the No-God causes stillbirths by closing off the Outside? I thought that couldn't happen until Earwa was whittled down to 144,000 souls, and the Stillbirths were a way of keeping the population from replenishing itself.

The only thing that's stated is that while the No-God walks, no child is born. I think there's probably something in the DunShae talking about how it works that indicates passage of souls, but I can't really be bothered to find it right now.

[Kalbear]

33 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Right, its a side effect. Its what they learned from the Inoculation of the Nonmen, when all the women died. (Sorry I do forget the name.)

Citation needed as to them learning anything from the womb plague.

[Darth Richard II]

54 minutes ago, Latan said:

What questions did you have that were not answered?

Yeah there's about 60 or so pages of discussion on this in the last three threads. Cmon.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

50 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Citation needed as to them learning anything from the womb plague.

R.S. Bakker, TGO Q&A:

The simplest way to look at the Womb Plague is as a kluge. The Inchoroi are stuck with the remnants of a technology they can no longer understand. At the same time, think of what it is the No-God, as a technology, yields the Inchoroi: the death of birth. They attempted to give immortality to their Nonmen allies to begin with, to save their souls, realized afterward that their gift was fatal to their women. This yielded a crude tool they needed to accomplish at least part of the No-God's function.

Bold is mine. What they learned from the Womb Plague, was used as a tool with the No-God. The Outside is not shut. We know the Outside was never shut during the 1st Apocalypse, they never reached 144,000 (If that's even true, as its prophecy also.). 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Latan said:

What questions did you have that were not answered?

I'll go into it because it's been a while.

• What Kellhus' actual plan was.
• What the point of Mimara being at Golgotterath was. Or really, her entire journey.
• What Akka's quest was about, and what point it had.
• Why was it necessary for the Great Ordeal to go into sranc-fueled madness.
• Was Kellhus actually caring about Esme?
• Did Psatma and Yatwer oppose Kellhus because he was Ajokli, or because he was just a bad dude?
• Did Shae get killed?
• Did Shae take over the Dunyain?
• Why was Mimara being followed by the Consult?
• What was the 'respect the prophecies, both false and true' bit from Aurang?
• Why does an Anasurimbor need to trigger the No-God mechanism?
• Why did it take 2000 years for them to do that?
• What has the Consult been up to in the last 2000 years?
• Prior to the Dunyain, what was the Consult plan?
• Is Kellhus lying or telling the truth? Could he have saved everyone?
• Is Kellhus damned or holy?
• What does it mean to be holy?
• Is Mimara's eye actually accurate?
• Is Samarmas actually part of Kelmomas?
• Did Ajokli lead Kelmomas in any way?
• Did the Consult want to save Kellhus to use in the carapace? If so, why did they try to kill him with a nuke?\
• What was their goal with the nuke, anyway?
• How did the Consult ally with the Nonmen?
• Did the nonmen know about the Dunyain? What did they know?
• What actually happened with the Womb Plague? 
• How much of the first apocalypse actually happened?
• Who sent Akka his dreams?
• How accurate were his dreams?
• Was Nau-Cayuti actually not Celmomas' son? If so, why does he work in the No-God when he's not an Anasurimbor?

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Bold is mine. What they learned from the Womb Plague, was used as a tool with the No-God. The Outside is not shut. We know the Outside was never shut during the 1st Apocalypse, they never reached 144,000 (If that's even true, as its prophecy also.). 

Why would you believe that, though? You said that you take everything with a grain of salt.

I also believe that he clarified later that it was simply killing things and stopping birth that they used as a concept around the No-God. Though later, it was also clarified that the womb plague had nothing to do with the No-God. 

Again, we know that the Outside isn't shut; that was never in doubt. It wasn't shut in the first apocalypse either. What IS shut is the passage of souls from the Outside to kids.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Lol. I specifically meant the AMA and all the hub bub surrounding it. Fair enough. But I'll need citations for your claims as well, because I don't remember any of that.

I understand frustration with all the theorizing essentially being put to rest with his comments. I just choose to ignore it. Its not finished, according to Bakker, therefore I don't see why the speculation need to end. I do admit I was as frustrated at first as many others. He can either redeem his self with the next installments, or fall into a philosophical wank fest.

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Lol. I specifically meant the AMA and all the hub bub surrounding it. Fair enough. But I'll need citations for your claims as well, because I don't remember any of that.

Well, it was either in the AMA or in the various places he was asked questions and answered (maybe TSA?), so I'm not sure I should quote it at you. Would you actually believe it if I did? It's kind of frustrating to even bother to source extratextual things when you'll simply pick the ones you care about and ignore the ones you don't. 

In any case, I happen to know a bit more about this one because I thought that quote about the womb plague being important for the No-God was actually like you described and came up with a theory around it, only for it to be shot down later.

4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I understand frustration with all the theorizing essentially being put to rest with his comments. I just choose to ignore it. Its not finished, according to Bakker, therefore I don't see why the speculation need to end.

The speculation can continue, obviously, it's just worthless basing it on prior events, as we now know that nothing is decided and there isn't any specific answer to be found. TGO was where the road ended based on the plans. Everything else is simply being made up from there. Our speculation is as valuable and likely to be as accurate as anything because it's entirely open now. 

4 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

I do admit I was as frustrated at first as many others. He can either redeem his self with the next installments, or fall into a philosophical wank fest.

There's a third option, which is that it can simply not be particularly good. We've seen some of his work based on other less-developed ideas fall into that trap, and there's a reasonable argument to be made that his work is more likely to be closer to something like Disciple of the Dog than it is Prince of Nothing given the relative timeframes he's had to think about it. 

I mean, the first new book is supposed to be a story about Crabicus. This does not particularly bode well. 

[Callan S.]

I have a question - where did the name 'Crabicus' come from? I never saw it's origin, only it being mentioned here?

Is it the Survivors son? Particularly given Bakker said he'd be writing from a naive viewpoint (to help readers into the series) and the survivors son is missing part of his hand, so he is left with a pincer?

[Dora Vee]

It is the Survivor's son and both his hands look like crab hands.