Darth Richard II Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Yes, I know what you believe, I'm saying I disagree. And you might want to stop stamping your feet and saying you're leaving and never posting here again then posting a few hours later. It doesn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 24 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: Yes, I know what you believe, I'm saying I disagree. And you might want to stop stamping your feet and saying you're leaving and never posting here again then posting a few hours later. It doesn't help. I'm just discussing the text. There's a good case to be made in the text, that indeed he had feelings for her. You wanna discuss the text? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 15 hours ago, larrytheimp said: Kellhus also references the growing darkness and speculates about whether or not Esmenet is part of that but it seems odd that all of a sudden she'd be a growing weakness when it's pretty clear it was Ajokli. Maybe the writing is just not that convincing. Didn't Kellhus hurt Esmenet's feelings by basically not caring for the death of Samarmas? My memory of that scene is pretty weak but I remember that being said in the what has come before section. Bakker needed a convenient excuse to do multiple things, take Kelmomas north, allow Achamian to live all those years and Mimara to go to him. Kellhus loving Esmenet or somehow mistaking Ajokli for that love is the excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Because really, when you love someone very much the thing you do the most is take them with you to literally the most dangerous place on the planet where it's incredibly easy to accidentally be killed. Seems legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 This is your brain. This is your brain on Ajokli. Not even once! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 My feelings on the circumvix(I think i spelled that wrong) scene ha always been that Kellhus freaks out because he releases he can actually fail and make mistakes. The idea that je loved Serwa is just...icky to me, for various reasons. (And of course if you love someone, you get them in a three way, right?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dora Vee Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Or you're willing to hand them over to an insane, violent, tortured man. Or send her to basically take advantage of Achamian. Love...suuuure. I think it was more shock than anything. I agree with the sentiment that Kellhus didn't love anyone. He just used them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutarez Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Twisted love is still love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said: Really? Did you reread it? I think there is a case to be made. I've made it before. He tries to will her back to life. There is plenty there that the death effected him. And, he must've had feelings for it to effect him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 10 hours ago, Callan S. said: This is your brain. This is your brain on Ajokli. Not even once! Another reason why Bakker should have kept Kellhus's PoV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Lutarez said: Twisted love is still love If anything I'd say it's more like the love one has for a favorite pet, if anything. But as @Dora Vee says upthread I think shock is a great term for what I actually think happened. Honestly we're never going to agree on this, it seemed like a useless discussion at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I personally think that on the circumfix Kellhus was closer to another person's soul than he has been at any point in his life, and that was the only time that he remotely had gone past his sense of self and become one with the Soul of the world, like Koringhus did. I don't think that's love; I think it's being aware that all are one, and she was him and he was her and they are all connected. Kellhus has been trained since birth to believe that he is a singular piece, separate entirely from everything else, and that the optimal thing in the universe is to be the most singular thing you can be, even defeating the things that you don't understand that push you away from that. As far as I can tell from Earwan metaphysics, this is almost precisely the most wrong thing ever. When he was on the circumfix, all of that training and thinking and control went away, and he went to atavistic values - and there, he found connection. He might have considered that love in what passes for his soul, but he doesn't understand love any more than he understands the concept of metaphysics in the world. He has no word for the notion that he is not just himself, and so perhaps considers it love - but it's not that. Later, he encounters something that makes him feel...he doesn't know what. Longing for things? Desire to save? Desire to make bad choices? And he again associates it with love, not knowing that once again it's not that, it's something else - in this case, it's Ajokli, manipulating his weak spirit and frail soul for his gain. His hubris is believing that he is beyond this, and that any feelings like this must be his own - because all feelings must be his own, and he cannot comprehend feeling what another is feeling as they do. But that's just what Ajokli does. Because Ajokli is part of the system, part of all of us, and their slipping into another person is just it being the god of deceit that lies in all of us. In both cases of 'love' by Kellhus, we have Kellhus experiencing feelings that are beyond his personal soul, and he has no other word for it. But that doesn't mean it is love, nor does it mean that it is accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Drizztos Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I have heard the grave news that TUC pretty much sucks. Is it true? How could the messiah fail us so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 15 minutes ago, Ser Drizztos said: I have heard the grave news that TUC pretty much sucks. Is it true? How could the messiah fail us so? Nah, it doesn't suck. For some people it's by far the bestest thing ever. And it has good beats, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Quote Later, he encounters something that makes him feel...he doesn't know what. Longing for things? Desire to save? Desire to make bad choices? And he again associates it with love, not knowing that once again it's not that, it's something else - in this case, it's Ajokli, manipulating his weak spirit and frail soul for his gain. His hubris is believing that he is beyond this, and that any feelings like this must be his own - because all feelings must be his own, and he cannot comprehend feeling what another is feeling as they do. But that's just what Ajokli does. Because Ajokli is part of the system, part of all of us, and their slipping into another person is just it being the god of deceit that lies in all of us. I think Bakker missed out by not making this clearer to most readers. If Kellhus was merely deluded and not actively communicating any plans with Ajokli what was the point of hiding his PoV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Hello World said: I think Bakker missed out by not making this clearer to most readers. If Kellhus was merely deluded and not actively communicating any plans with Ajokli what was the point of hiding his PoV? I think this is more Bakker being too clever for his own good. Hiding Kellhus makes us think that his plan has to be something monumental and must be the major focus of the story entirely. It allows for the Ajokli reveal at the end to hit hard, hit us like it hit the DunSult. It allows us to supposedly be 'surprised' when the Kellhus hologram descends and the No-God arises. But it also completely undercuts the idea that both Kellhus and the Dunsult's souls are weak and prone to corruption and possession, especially as we have basically no hint of this prior to the story, no reason to think this. And again we're left at the point where textually what Bakker said happened isn't particularly well-supported, so...do we believe Bakker? Or do we believe the text? Is the goal to make your own meaning here, draw your own conclusion on not just a theme but a massive plot point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ser Drizztos said: I have heard the grave news that TUC pretty much sucks. Is it true? How could the messiah fail us so? Haha oh dear. that is one loaded question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dora Vee Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Ser Drizztos said: I have heard the grave news that TUC pretty much sucks. Is it true? How could the messiah fail us so? It really depends on who you ask. You either liked it or you didn't. It also depends on how many characters you were attached to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 It's terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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