Jump to content
larrytheimp

Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Wait what? Have you read Game of Thrones? Cause

  Hide contents

Ned dies like a bitch.

 

Right. But, wouldn't you say that Jon Snow has been a main character, or Dany? There's too many characters to say that Ned losing his head in book one would constitute what @Callan S. was getting at.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Huh. Now see, that's why I would much look forward to a different new series being done. Lets just assume Bakker doesn't exist. I've always thought Lawrence and Abercrombie to be the 1st two Authors that are made for TV or film. I just don't get throwing 250 mil at LotR for rights, then doing fanfic?!?$? That's absolutely insane to me. Id much, much rather see the Simillarion, or stuff based off his notes.

If someone were to do an adaptation of "The Lost Road" I would be up for that. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Right. But, wouldn't you say that Jon Snow has been a main character, or Dany? There's too many characters to say that Ned losing his head in book one would constitute what @Callan S. was getting at.

Eh, I would argue that things pretty much go to shit for a majority of the pov characters in the first book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Right. But, wouldn't you say that Jon Snow has been a main character, or Dany? There's too many characters to say that Ned losing his head in book one would constitute what @Callan S. was getting at.

I think Ned was more like a traditional protagonist than anyone in TSA.

I believe that's also what GRRM was going for. Ned was the father figure, the one who knew what to do, and his POV was right at the center of that first books narrative. Martin wanted us to consider Ned the protagonist, which is why it was such a shock when he died.

Same reason Bran going out the window and being crippled by the fall was such a shock. Since he was the first POV after the prologue, many readers assumed he was "the" protagonist and that nothing permenant was going to happen to him that early in the story.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Huh. Now see, that's why I would much look forward to a different new series being done. Lets just assume Bakker doesn't exist. I've always thought Lawrence and Abercrombie to be the 1st two Authors that are made for TV or film. I just don't get throwing 250 mil at LotR for rights, then doing fanfic?!?$? That's absolutely insane to me. Id much, much rather see the Simillarion, or stuff based off his notes.

They're paying for the brand essentially. They could easily have crafted their own generic fantasy world filled with elves and dwarves and a dark lord that needs to find a chalice or a helmet or something to gain ultimate power, and told the same stories about a ranger dodging orcs and goblins in the wild.

Amazon paid 250 million dollars for the name, not the stories. Because they know people are going to tune in for Lord of the Rings no matter what that name is stamped on. Lord of the Rings is a globally recognized brand that people like. They want to appeal to a non-discerning mass audience who will tune in just because they love Tolkien's books or Peter Jackson's movies.

It was a business decision, not an artistic one. And that's where the majority of the issues with artistic dating TSA come from. It's not just about whether or nor TSA will make a good series. It's about the fiscal realities of the entertainment industry and the comodification of art.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of game of thrones, can I be off topic for a moment - I've only read the first but I have a friend who frankly feels a bit betrayed by the book, feeling every main character dies. He expects Arya to die next. He just thinks it's a cycle of build up then killed, over and over as a formula.

Not having read more than the first book, I have a question: Most of the main characters who die - are they seeking vengence? I'm guessing as to theme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Callan S. said:

Speaking of game of thrones, can I be off topic for a moment - I've only read the first but I have a friend who frankly feels a bit betrayed by the book, feeling every main character dies. He expects Arya to die next. He just thinks it's a cycle of build up then killed, over and over as a formula.

That's not an uncommon reaction, though I disagree about the cycle of buildup then death. I think people get that impression because of just how long the wait between books is. The most recent book ended with a character supposedly being killed while in the process of doing something that a lot of readers really wanted to see happen. I actually chucked my book across the room after reading it, then had hissy fit about it on reddit. The thing is, most people believe that this storyline is still eventually going to play out, but the book still leaves you with that feeling of empty dissatisfaction while you're waiting.

I think ASoIaF will read a lot better once all the books are out. it's clearly a series that was written to be re-read.

Quote

Not having read more than the first book, I have a question: Most of the main characters who die - are they seeking vengence? I'm guessing as to theme.

No, not really. There's only one that I can think of off the top of my head who is actively seeking vengeance when he dies. Most of the real gut punches come from good but (sometimes) naive characters who are trying to do what they see as the right thing, the honorable thing, etc.

Although, if you're willing to play with the order of the Seeking Vengeance -> Death formula, there is one other person...

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Michael Seswatha Jordan I was talking about the first book, which was the first season of Game of Thrones. Ned was clearly the main character to the vast majority of viewers and he failed and died. Kellhus fails in TSA, in the seventh book, after being a god the whole time. I'm not even sure that a TSA adaptation if it happened will get to that point. If you wanted to give viewers a book where the main character fails, as Callan wants, it already happened, GoT was that book.

Speaking of characters dying in ASOIAF, GRRM had a comment on it which led some people to think he kills characters for pure shock value, (spoilers up to book 3)

Quote

I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do.

 

Edited by Hello World

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hello World said:

If you wanted to give viewers a book where the main character fails, as Callan wants, it already happened, GoT was that book.

Now now, what we had was the suggestion of a LOTR prequel based around Strider. Strider can't die, it fucks the chronology. Yet another work where the main character, in order to make sure RL mortgages are paid, will never freakin' die. Just this one is even more explicit.

It'd be nice to have more than two examples to rub together against all the undying protagonists out there. So that some more brief candle living can haunt the never dying dead.

2 hours ago, Hello World said:

The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father.

Ah! Vengence. Indeed-dily doodilly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a few things they could build off for an Aragorn-centered prequel series to LOTR. 

1. He lost his father at two , and was raised at Rivendell (it adds some more interesting subtext to his interactions with Elrond when you figure that Elrond is sort of his surrogate father figure, looking after his many-times-great-grand-nephew). 

2. He wandered all over the place in the North and elsewhere - it's even mentioned IIRC that he went into the mostly-off-the-maps east of Rhun and south into Harad (where the "stars are strange").  

3. He carried out a raid in disguise along with some of the other rangers that wiped out almost all of Umber's naval power.

4. He at the very least helped out Gandalf to search for Gollum, and did other stuff between the events at Bilbo's party and Frodo's departure. 

5. He heads south and ends up at Lothlorien, where he meets Galadriel and Arwen.

They negotiated for five seasons IIRC, and all five of those could be major foci for seasons. 

Edited by Fall Bass

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait for the tacked on side kick character, probably female for political reasons, who is added because they can actually die - and because they can die (and maybe because they turn out to be female), they will. Which also neatly cleans up future continuity questions (why wasn't X around?). Clockwork.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What if kellhus wanted to "die" ? Normal Kellhus could have easily bitchslap Kelmomas... only ajokly was all confused because he could not see. 

So scenario 1: Kellus wins without ajoklis help, still needs kel to be the No-god so he can close the world and free himself. 

 

Scenario 2: ajokli takes over. The only being capable of killing him is kel... he does it, kellhus survives on the other head 

 

This might actually make sense. He tells maloweby not to worry, this is conditioned ground

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×