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Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues

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Kelmomas didn't beat Kellhus, he just confused the Ajokli possession of Kellhus and Kellhus's training couldn't come back online quickly enough to avoid a skin spy slapping a chorae on his foot.

 

By the way that skin spy went up six levels instantly. Lot of XP in that one!

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6 hours ago, Lutarez said:

What if kellhus wanted to "die" ? Normal Kellhus could have easily bitchslap Kelmomas... only ajokly was all confused because he could not see. 

Kellhus didn't  die at the hands of Kelmomas; a skin-spy killed him.

 

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how does it make zero sense? 

 

Kellhus realizes that his "darkness" is Ajokli, he realizes that he has been played for years and years, probably since leaving ishual or at least since the circumfiction, or since the beginning of time if gods are timeless.

 

He knows that going closer to Golgotterath will make it more likely that he will be taken over, he also knows that it will probably happen in the golden room. So he creates this long term plan: He needs to get rid of the god. The only way he can do this is trough the logos (aka his own willpower) or trough closing of world with the help of the No-God. (it may seem desperate and it might not work, but this is the only thing he can do). 

  

So he enters the golden room. If he can overpower  Ajokli than things will go well. He will destroy the consult, trick the god and that's it. If he can't do it, then Ajokli will destroy the whole world. That's no good. 

 

This is when Kellmomas comes in, he is the only one who can defeat the god. He knows that the dunsult will realize this and he will "die"...Either by Kelmomas' hand, a skinspy, the dunsult themselves etc, doesn't matter. He trusts that they will make the right choice and use this only chance to defeat ajokli. 

 

A detail that important is that Ajokli can't sense Kellhus. He is on some way hidden. Why not do this before? that would make the whole theory fall apart...I think he wanted to try to overpower Ajokli. Also, without the No-god Kellhus' soul would join the outside, now it's trapped on earth . Together with the decapitants and Mimaras baby he has some sort of plan.

 

 

 

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Well for one, we know most of what you just stated is wrong. He didn't know Ajolki was his darkness and he didn't know he was going to be possessed the closer he got to Golgotterath.  So that kind of destroys that whole theory at its base.

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Lutarez, it sounds like competence projection "Kellhus is a player, he couldn't just get played...!"

58 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

He didn't know Ajolki was his darkness

I hadn't thought of that, that he misidentified Esme as his darkness. He could feel the darkness welling, so he went back to her as the presumed source.

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How do we know that he was unaware of the possesion ? He says the golden room is conditioned ground.  He also becomes more worried as he approaches a topos, the place wierd shit happens.

 

Kinda funny seeing you accuse others of "projecting" in this thread, considering crazy theories and discussion in one of the main reason people come here... 

 

What I wrote might not be what bakker intended, but it is supported by the text. Blame him for not being clear enough, not me for trying to understanding it...

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58 minutes ago, Lutarez said:

How do we know that he was unaware of the possesion ? He says the golden room is conditioned ground.  He also becomes more worried as he approaches a topos, the place wierd shit happens.

Bakker explicitly states that Kellhus didn't know.

58 minutes ago, Lutarez said:

What I wrote might not be what bakker intended, but it is supported by the text. Blame him for not being clear enough, not me for trying to understanding it...

This is one of the biggest reasons that a lot of people got mad about the AMA. The general thought was that Kellhus intended Ajokli to take over and do something about it but was either surprised or had future plans, but he always knew Ajokli would have power there and had made an explicit deal. It turns out that Kellhus was weak in spirit and had become possessed, and didn't know. Just like apparently the DunSult, which are now possessed by Shae. 

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1 hour ago, Lutarez said:

 

What I wrote might not be what bakker intended, but it is supported by the text. Blame him for not being clear enough, not me for trying to understanding it...

Right or you could have, you know, read the thread to find out that your theory had been debunked at least 6 or 7 times quite a while ago.

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8 hours ago, Lutarez said:

How do we know that he was unaware of the possesion ? He says the golden room is conditioned ground.  He also becomes more worried as he approaches a topos, the place wierd shit happens.

 

Kinda funny seeing you accuse others of "projecting" in this thread, considering crazy theories and discussion in one of the main reason people come here... 

 

What I wrote might not be what bakker intended, but it is supported by the text. Blame him for not being clear enough, not me for trying to understanding it...

The thing is you don't provide evidence any evidence as to why he isn't just being played. You're saying he could be thinking this and he could be knowing that. Sure, he could - if he isn't just being played. How is he knowing all this and avoiding having the wool pulled over his eyes? The idea he knows what is going on just needs an explanation of why he would know the whole Ajokli take over is happening.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're not doing a satisfying theory here when you don't describe why you think Kellhus would avoid having the wool pulled over your eyes, you just treat it that he just didn't.

Take it that we're asking for an even more comprehensive theory from you. Just give us something on how Kellhus detected Ajokli hacking him - the how of how he detected that. Remember when Kellhus basically talks to a copy of himself ('Who better to burn them') - it's gunna be hard to detect a hack from something that seems to be oneself. It's like an immune system being unable to detect an invader which looks exactly like the body its trying to protect. What theory do you have in regard to that? We're all cracked pots together, here!

 

7 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Just like apparently the DunSult, which are now possessed by Shae.

Please, a valid, interesting speculation. But don't confuse things with the guy by saying it's a fact.

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I have been reading the threads, since the books release. Maybe I missed this. 

 

As for the AMA, I know a lot of people where pissed off, me too...  however he also made it a point that giving your own interpretation is a good thing.  

 

Still, The effects on this thread where quite disasterous, seems soon it will be dead

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1 hour ago, Lutarez said:

Still, The effects on this thread where quite disasterous, seems soon it will be dead

Entire forums have died after the series they're dedicated to ended, not sure why this is surprising.

eta: I know it's supposedly not over, but for now there is not much to speculate about regarding the next series of books. And past efforts to theorize based on info already available ended badly.

Edited by Hello World

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As I've said before, I take the AMA with a grain of salt. But, if others are using as proof that Kellhus was caught completely unawares, from Bakker's comments, the what about "Kellhus is dead but not done."?

That means that he had contingencies in place. Oh, and the Outside is not shut as of yet. Not even close. Plenty to speculate on.

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Just gunna say, was not made angry by AMA.

Also found ending to be fine. If he had been mysterious about whether the ordeal got to Golgoterath, or merely alluded to what happened in the golden room and didn't say - if he'd only alluded to a dragon fight and never got into the details, if what happened to the ordeal at the end was left to some kind of BS 'well what do you think happened', I think that would have found that all a lot of bullshit. But he is actually explicit about a lot of action pieces and how they resolve. A main character failed. It's funny, Bakker said we'd all need therapy at the end, but I actually found the failure strangely therapeutic. It's like the promise of failure in stories is there, but the promise is never kept. Finally a story that paid on this promise.

I get the apparently ragged 'plot threads', like Mimara getting there then the judging eye doesn't spot Kellhus. There's a reviewer who refers to a 'shaggy dog story'. But to me it's not a 'plot thread' that she got there - it's just what the characters did. The judging eye doesn't fire at will, it's random. I don't know if Bakker's 'see meaning in a new way' stuff or however he put it is about having events that just don't pan out, even if you traveling for hundreds of miles and through hell even to get there. But it's valid. And frankly Tolkien did it first. Frodo. Failed. Sure, we have Gollum, who pretty much everyone wanted to kill, end up being a dues ex (who also failed, essentially).

But I wonder what it looks like from the eyes of an optimist - I've heard people say they literally thought Frodo would always make it, it was just a matter of how much he suffered along the way.

I wonder if the books suffered from a lack of perception of differing world views - Bakker is a self confessed radical pessimist. From an optimistic viewpoint, the quest to destroy the ring - it succeeded! Yes! Because despite Frodo failing, despite Gollum basically trying to snatch it and by dumb chance getting it and falling in the lava, the optimist sees this as a win. Scratching together victory from the fragments at hand.

But at the foot of Golgoterath, the optimistic are left with dust. Much like the scene with Cnaiur, where is stands in the sea, thrashing this way and that, demanding 'Where are the paths!'

Is anyone really going to buy into adopting pessimism, like some kind of religious transformation, at that point?

 

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13 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

As I've said before, I take the AMA with a grain of salt. But, if others are using as proof that Kellhus was caught completely unawares, from Bakker's comments, the what about "Kellhus is dead but not done."?

I can have life insurance because I think I might die to something unforeseen, but me dying doesn't prove that I foresaw it.

13 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

That means that he had contingencies in place. Oh, and the Outside is not shut as of yet. Not even close. Plenty to speculate on.

How is the Outside not shut to the passage of souls? What evidence do you have of this? We have textual evidence to the contrary - namely, Mimara's stillborn second child. 

The point was never to shut the Outside from the gods, and point of fact we know for certain that while the No-God walks the gods can interact with humans as they could before - they're just entirely blind to what's going on, or as Bakker put it struck with metaphysical Alzheimers. None of that changes the flow of souls. 

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

How is the Outside not shut to the passage of souls? What evidence do you have of this? We have textual evidence to the contrary - namely, Mimara's stillborn second child.

Doesn't the JE being struck blind when Mimara looked at her pregnant belly imply that the child's prenatal body already had a soul attached to it? Is it ever actually stated that the No-God causes stillbirths by closing off the Outside? I thought that couldn't happen until Earwa was whittled down to 144,000 souls, and the Stillbirths were a way of keeping the population from replenishing itself.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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16 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

That means that he had contingencies in place. Oh, and the Outside is not shut as of yet. Not even close. Plenty to speculate on.

I don't think it necessarily means he had contingencies in place, even if we're taking Bakker's word for granted here. Oh, and the outside being shut or not is besides the point, there is not much to speculate on regarding the next series beyond making pure guesses.

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