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“For the watch”


Richard Hoffman

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Why is it that you believe Jon has to follow a law that doesn't exist except in some readers minds but Ramsay is above all law? 


Some people just read words on pages, and not stories. They can't answer basic questions.

Jon, or any Lord Commander, is the highest ranking member of the watch. His word is final. The watch is not a subordinate organization to the iron throne even, and it is several thousand years older. A LC can do things like make pardons of he chooses to do so. And saving a highborn little girl from the freezing cold and LOST OUT AT A LAKE when the wights and Others are on their way IS fulfilling his duties. Sorry for the emphasis. Some people need glasses and I was trying to help them out.

The wall governs itself, which is why it was wrong of Slynt, Marsh, Thorne, and Yarwyck to try and take sway from Tywin/the throne:

  • "Me?" Snow sounded startled.
    "Who else, my lord? Only his life's blood could pay for his crimes, your laws said, and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law … but as you said so sagely, the laws of men end at the Wall. I told you that the Lord of Light would hear your prayers. You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god." She pointed with a pale finger. "There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya's deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light … and me."
  • Like so much else, heraldry ended at the Wall.
  • "The law ends at the Wall, Your Grace.
     

It is an entity unto itself:

  • The largest structure ever built by the hands of man, Benjen Stark had told Jon on the kingsroad when they had first caught sight of the Wall in the distance. "And beyond a doubt the most useless," Tyrion Lannister had added with a grin, but even the Imp grew silent as they rode closer. You could see it from miles off, a pale blue line across the northern horizon, stretching away to the east and west and vanishing in the far distance, immense and unbroken. This is the end of the world, it seemed to say.
  • The day promised to be damp and cold, and damper and colder by the Wall, beneath those tons of ice. The closer they got, the more the Thenns held back. They have never seen the Wall before, not even the Magnar, Jon realized. It frightens them. In the Seven Kingdoms it was said that the Wall marked the end of the world. That is true for them as well. It was all in where you stood.
  • "You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world."
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51 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on whether GRRM might be using the concept of the Divine Right of Kings in his work. I believe most who come here acknowledge that he seems to view time as a wheel and because so much of this discussion is centered on political issues, I started thinking about some things from my school days and that one popped into my mind. I wonder if he's viewing that concept as a wheel too. It would makes sense,  I believe, if a King is the top echelon of a society and "All men must serve" than he would serve God, but if it was a wheel than wouldn't he be serving the last in line? The seemingly lowest on the ladder. Just a thought I had and felt I needed to post to hear others thoughts and feelings. Thanks. 

Nothing to see here, move along please - a bit of troll killing, if you must know sir. Sad that you have been exposed to this lowly moment.

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47 minutes ago, divica said:

What legal right would ramsay have to atack CB? Jon did something he didn t like?

I am sorry ramsay can t kill people because the annoy him and the NW isn t ramsay's bitch. 

Otherwise if wamsay orders jon to kill all wildlings for you he would have to do it otherwise ramsay would go there and attack the watch... Not obeying ramasay's wishes isn t being a bad LC. It is being a rational human being.

And you are wrong. Lets say the watch fights against the boltons because they stole the north/are monsters/the northern army needs their help to defeat them. Do you think that if the northern army wins they will resent the watch or support it? Hell there were several corrupt LCs that attacked the 7kingdoms and the watch survived. So if the watch saves the 7 kingdoms from some tyrant it would be good for them. However, as you said it is needed a special kind of incident to make the watch intervene... 

Even if stannis is alive but defeated and with a very small army that only appears after jon and the wildlings conquer WF and kill the boltons. What garante does the watch have that stannis will focos on the ww or the northerns that he will be interested in defending the northern in first place instead of conquering the IT? There needs to be someone that represents the north and that person isn t stannis. Why don t you think they might choose rickon as their king and jon as protector of the realm? (if stannis is out of the Picture?)

Mance and his bitches murdered Bolton men under the Bolton's roof all to steal fArya

He points to Jon.

Now Ramsey has more than enough justification take off Jon's head for his part in this little conspiracy and really anyone who stands in his way.

And no I'm not wrong.

the cozy picture where there's a clear good guy and a clear bad guy and everyone is in perfect in agreement is nice thought but really is never the case.

Aerys was a tyrannt to some but we clearly see throughout the book there those who still miss the day of his rule.

The watch's loyaltyies would be split, fathers and brother of crow would urge them to assist them on all sides and the watch would eat itself up over which side they need to support whether that be the lanisters, or the Baratheons or the Targaryians.

And if they support the wrong side the order is finished all together.

 

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29 minutes ago, Wild Bill said:

Nothing to see here, move along please - a bit of troll killing, if you must know sir. Sad that you have been exposed to this lowly moment.

Yeah yeah, anyone who expreesses a view you don't like on something on the Internet is a troll.

Easier to believe that than *gasp* dare ponder the thought someone legitimately believed in a opinion you disagreed with

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4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Mance and his bitches murdered Bolton men under the Bolton's roof all to steal fArya

He points to Jon.

Now Ramsey has more than enough justification take off Jon's head for his part in this little conspiracy and really anyone who stands in his way.

And no I'm not wrong.

the cozy picture where there's a clear good guy and a clear bad guy and everyone is in perfect in agreement is nice thought but really is never the case.

Aerys was a tyrannt to some but we clearly see throughout the book there those who still miss the day of his rule.

The watch's loyaltyies would be split, fathers and brother of crow would urge them to assist them on all sides and the watch would eat itself up over which side they need to support whether that be the lanisters, or the Baratheons or the Targaryians.

And if they support the wrong side the order is finished all together.

 

But jon didn t order mance to do that! He sent mance to help a run way girl. If jon has any fault of what happened is incompetence in keeping mance on a leash. You think ramsay has the right to kill jon because he couldnt control mance? THAT is over reacting and not what is written in the pink letter.

 

You think everybody in the watch is a noble? that is a minority. And in order for the watch to intervene it would need to be a very dramatic situation. For example, if some house clearly violated some important rules and the intervention of the watch was crucial to stop them I don t think they would have much problems in doing so. However, if it became common practice people would feel unease about the NW.

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28 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Mance and his bitches murdered Bolton men under the Bolton's roof all to steal fArya

He points to Jon.

Now Ramsey has more than enough justification take off Jon's head for his part in this little conspiracy and really anyone who stands in his way.

And no I'm not wrong.

the cozy picture where there's a clear good guy and a clear bad guy and everyone is in perfect in agreement is nice thought but really is never the case.

Aerys was a tyrannt to some but we clearly see throughout the book there those who still miss the day of his rule.

You are wrong and you as a reader should know the difference because it has been spelled out to us, and for you to try and defend the Boltons and Ramsay while flagrantly ignoring the other half of the books is doing nothing except intentionally starting a flame war... again.

We know that everyone from King's Landing to Barrow Hall to Winterfell all know who the girl the Boltons have in possession is a fake, therefore, it is NOT "Bolton roof" by any means. It is a false claim using a false girl. You as the reader should know this. The author has the Boltons set up to fail for a reason.

Bloody hell, even the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell was laughing at the complete sham of a marriage.

Same with Slynt, Marsh and friends. We are literally shown on page in two books that they are plotting against Jon and even the election process messing with the affairs of the south and southron/throne politics... which you apparently have a crazy backsliding opinion of them doing, as seen in your statement below.

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The watch's loyaltyies would be split, fathers and brother of crow would urge them to assist them on all sides and the watch would eat itself up over which side they need to support whether that be the lanisters, or the Baratheons or the Targaryians.

 

Wrong. If they don't follow the orders of their current LC, the one who knows what the real threat is, then they are finished all together, along with all of humanity.

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And if they support the wrong side the order is finished all together.

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13 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You are wrong and you as a reader should know the difference because it has been spelled out to us, and for you to try and defend the Boltons and Ramsay while flagrantly ignoring the other half of the books is doing nothing except intentionally starting a flame war... again.

We know that everyone from King's Landing to Barrow Hall to Winterfell all know who the girl the Boltons have in possession is a fake, therefore, it is NOT "Bolton roof" by any means. It is a false claim using a false girl. You as the reader should know this. The author has the Boltons set up to fail for a reason.

You do realize the people haven't had the time to read Asoiaf yes?

From the perspective of whose not part of the deception Arya stark was married to Ramaey Bolton and Mance has murdered his some of his host's friends while he enjoyed food and wine under the Bolton's roof.

Seriously all? Madelyn might despise the Boltons but he makes very clear to Davos he bought in into their charade

Bloody hell, even the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell was laughing at the complete sham of a marriage.

Same with Slynt, Marsh and friends. We are literally shown on page in two books that they are plotting against Jon and even the election process messing with the affairs of the south and southron/throne politics... which you apparently have a crazy backsliding opinion of them doing, as seen in your statement below.

They wanted one of them and someone whose a actual good relationship with the iron throne to win true;nothing wrong with that per say.  

 

Wrong. If they don't follow the orders of their current LC, the one who knows what the real threat is, then they are finished all together, along with all of humanity.

Jon's open border policy has caused overpopulation and very soon mass starvation, following all his orders and letting him declare war on the IT would destroy them and then who would keep watch for the threat of the others?

 

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OK...

For the sake of argument. The books are completely against you, but perhaps you are arguing what other actors in the books might think? Even though, your first bolded bit seems to imply that you haven't finished the books...

In an extremely short period of time, the Boltons have usurped Theon Greyjoy who has usurped the Starks (who held Winterfell for several thousand years).

...

Phiffle! I can't go on, my head's going to explode! The rest of the realm would except Arya being real, and would even know who the feck Mance is? Meanwhile there is overpopulation and mass starvation in the long-ago depopulated Gift because of the the attempt to settle the Wilderlings???

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You do realize the people haven't had the time to read Asoiaf yes?

 

They don't have to wait because they have advanced copies, and those copies don't include things like the "NK" at Harhome <_<

Or, are you stating that you haven't finished the first book?

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From the perspective of whose not part of the deception Arya stark was married to Ramaey Bolton and Mance has murdered his some of his host's friends

 

Everyone knows Jeyne is fake. The Iron Throne/Tywin is purposely deceiving the realm (or at least trying to). Littlefinger knows, Roose, Ramsay, Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Lady Dustin, Lady Dustin's servants, Theon (of course), Manderly and those around Manderly, and even the Freys. Remember, Little Elmar Frey was supposed to marry his "princess", who was Arya. Who do they think Ramsay is marrying? I am sure I am forgetting someone, but this should be sufficient.

Heck, even the BWB is looking for Arya in various places because they know that fArya is false.

Hell, even in the Theon TWOW chapter we see Stannis and his ideas on this fArya, and this chapter takes place before the Jon/Pink Letter chapter. The entire north knows the marriage is fake and Arya is fake. The Iron Throne (the have's) were trying to screw over the have-not's (the realm). A very common theme of GRRM's, and guess who always fails???

The Boltons have been set up to fail.

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 while he enjoyed food and wine under the Bolton's roof.

 

Wrong again. Lord Manderly brought all of the food and then some. Not the Boltons, and it wouldn't matter anyway because the entire marriage and people involved are a farce. There are about three paragraphs that just detail the amount of food Manderly brings along with him. This was in part so that Manderly was careful not to anger the old gods, and therefore this carried over to Mance and the spearwives by proxy.

And again, it is not "Bolton's roof" because it is a mummer's farce of a trick. Everyone in the story knows this and Jeyne Poole is not a Stark. Even the weirwood laughs at this show. The Boltons are squatters, only worse than the innocent ones that Roose had do his dirty work for him and then killed.

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Seriously all? Madelyn might despise the Boltons but he makes very clear to Davos he bought in into their charade

Madelyn??? Is this another NK reference?

Lady Barbrey Dustin? If you mean her, then no, she despises the Boltons and she knows Jeyne is not Arya. She tells Theon that Jeyne better stop crying of she is going to keep up the mummers farce.

Lord Wyman Manderly? No. Manderly wants to restore the Starks using Rickon (for his reasons) and he is not buying fArya. He despises the Boltons, and the Freys, and Tywin (to a degree, but maybe not a severe). Remember his son, Wendel? Do you remember the abomination that happens to Wylis? Why do you think Wyman Manderly is bringing the pies? 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

They wanted one of them and someone whose a actual good relationship with the iron throne to win true;nothing wrong with that per say.  

 

Well, this is an about face in what you claimed was so wrong with Jon earlier. This is exactly what meddling with the affairs of southron politics is. There is something wrong with that. Just look at the cronyism that creates all of the historic issues between the throne and the citadel, the throne and the faith/7, the throne and the small folk, the throne and the lords who want favors, etc.

But if cronyism is your thing then that explains a lot and you don't need to go on.

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jon's open border policy has caused overpopulation and very soon mass starvation, following all his orders and letting him declare war on the IT would destroy them and then who would keep watch for the threat of the others?

Hahaha. No. Again, you seem to have these blinders on that keep you from looking at the story as a whole. First off, the various free folk come with a variety of skills and one of them is the know how to survive in harsh conditions. Will people die? Yes, but better they die and NOT return in the tens of thousands to kill the sparsely populated north, to then only add more to their zombie numbers to crash down on the lower kingdoms. Seriously, there is a book that explains this. Also, there are other Starks that are about to inherit a boatload of food that will travel north if need be. Also, for the immediate, smaller scale future, the wagons and wagons of food that Manderly brought, which paired with the fact that 3/4 of those men that were eating it are now gonna be dead, it will work for the time being. And if and when the battle move to the RIverlands, well, that is a lush area who's population has been drastically decreased with all of the recent wars. They actually need people as well.

Are you claiming that Jon is going to declare war on the Iron Throne? In your mind, if I am reading this correctly, you seem to be saying that Jon is going to let mass starvation happen in an overpopulated north, and then somehow all of these starved (and dead?) people are going to follow him down to King's Landing to declare war, which leaves no one at the wall? Can you back this up at all in any way possible with actual book text and not biased opinion? Any book quotes at all? 

Bowen and friends have already destroyed the wall because they didn't stand strong with their brothers. The Others are basically there. There are two types of cold, and the cold that Jon felt at the end of ADWD is the cold from the Others.

And you really need to understand the author as a person better than this. He is an open border policy man. And a feminist. And a "have not". And everything else that a hardcore hippie is. He writes about this in his other stories quite often, as well as on his blog.

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Which is not the same as Jon trying to go & get her, which is what you originally said. 

Did I? Quote me where.

No saying that this is how it was is not amoral. Treating another human being like they are property is amoral. Everything about Ramsay is amoral. Just because something is legal doesn't make it morally right. 

Did you miss the part where I showed disgust at the very concept?

Like, seriously I made it abundantly clear I found such thoughts archaic and ridiculous, I did not imply it was ok due to pure legality.

 

Yes. Torturing people is wrong & should not be condoned in any situation. I can't believe I even have to say that. I cant believe torture is cool is the message is the message I  tried to convey to you instead of the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. 

 

Jon continues to fulfill his duties up & until he was stabbed. What duties did he not fulfill? 

Well the wildlings we're quick enough to join up with Jon so I'm not sure what you even mean there, although it may be because of the threats & claims Ramsay made & not to save some random girl since, you know, they were never asked to go save any girl random or otherwise. 

Nope. Jon did nothing to justify Ramsay taking his head. It is not illegal by any stretch of the imagination to help a woman fleeing seek refuge. You are assuming Ramsay would be within his rights as the Lord of Winterfell to execute Jon if Jon had stole his  wife. But Jon didn't steal his wife & we have no precedent under which to clarify he would or wouldn't have that right if Jon had stolen his wife. 

Yeah, no. Women don't get to flee their abusive husband anymore than a child does his parents in this world. And even if that's all he did it vertically doesn't look like that due to the plethora of murdered men under Bolton employ. How exactly would Arya not have escpqved in the first place without help?

she couldn't. Hench the need for disguise and multiple women.Jon could claim he meant for Mance  to simply go  fethch her but it looks more like Jon employed Mance to go steal her.

The watch standing by Jon would not make a lot of them die? How so? 

I beg to differ. Bowen Marsh & C

misspoke. Meant the former. A lot of people would die if the watch opted to defending Jon

 

o will pay for their crimes, who is going to make the wildlings pay? They did nothing wrong & Marsh certainly doesn't have the backing to hold them accountable for what he perceived as Jon's wrongs. 

Mance is their king and thus is what he suffers so will they. Besides they're savages, they deserve it most northerners will think because to them wildlings are just monsters who come to steal their daughters and murder them in their sleep.

He acted completely responsibly & selflessly. What do you think he should have done? Let Ramsay March on the wall?

Kill himself? Like literally if he really thinks Stannis is dead, he's already dead, no use dragging more people down with him. Before do as Lord Varys advised   maybe offer Ramsey the people jon could give as a peace offering and promise to do everything in his power to find and return Arya to the proper authorities if she comes to him.

the peace offering probably won't work but at least it gives the watch at large plausible deniability and shows the NW willingness to comply with the laws of the kingdoms so long as it doesn't call for their oaths to be broken

Um... Me agreeing Jon isn't perfect does not mean I agree he did something "tremendously irresponsible"

um... you not actually recognizing how him putting at risk everything for one girl is a bad thing really conflicts with that.

 

Well if you are not saying Jon did not do what is necessary for the greater good what are you saying? 

That he cared too much for Arya to sacrifice her for it

Why is it that you believe Jon has to follow a law that doesn't exist except in some readers minds but Ramsay is above all law? 

There is no law we are told of against what Jon did. They take a vow to not take part in matters of the realm. Period. Jon is not nor has he ever done anything against the ruling monarchy. 

Providing strategic info to the guy attempting usurp their position isn't doing anything? 

Ramsay on the other hand has unlawfully acquired a title & a castle. His marriage is illegal therefore his claim to Winterfell & title as Lord of Winterfell does not exist.

 

The oaths were spoken and the marriage was witnessed, and consummated. By all onlookers Ramsey is the new lord of winterfell. His title recognized by King Tommen. 

Furthermore he threatened the lawful King of Westeros, the Night's Watch, & the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

You mean Stannis? The heretic who burned the 7 par takes in human sacrifice, and whose been trying to usurp the throne from his nephews immediately since after his brother's tragic death?

For most people in westeros  Stannis claims of the twincest are just that;claims he made up to give an excuse to seize throne from his brother's children.

In any case, Stannis came to the Boltons looking for a fight, expecting the Boltons to just roll over and allow loony-Stannis to come in and take everything they have is ridiculous. You might as well chastise Tyrion for daring to defend KL during Stannis's invasion.

Again threatened Jon in response to Snow unleashing Mance to get what is Ramsey.

He demanded things be returned to him that not only does he have no right to but also that Jon does not have &/or cannot give. He explicitly said what he would do if his unattainable demands were not met. Jon has every right under ever law IRL, in Westeros & in the NW to defend himself & the watch he commands by executing Ramsay for his crimes. 

 

Who threw first blood doesn't give the right to execute anyway but just because you said it: Ramsay started the fight by threatening Jon & the NW. 

Posted the threat in direct response to Jon's provocation.

We both know he killed Qhorin & joined the wildlings under Qhorin's command so I don't know what your point is here. Letting those "savages" in was one of the best decisions Jon made as LC & is the only reason they have any chance to survive the winter. 

Now you are just being silly. His "path to power" really? Jon didn't want the power that was thrown on him let alone more. 

You do realize the people in Asoiaf haven't read the books or seen AGOT?

We the readers know Jon's heart because we've the the privelage to read what's in  his head. 

Everyone in the story only can rely on what they see. And for a lot of people  in this universe Jon's actions seem very alarming. We the reader know what 

 

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4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

We know that everyone from King's Landing to Barrow Hall to Winterfell all know who the girl the Boltons have in possession is a fake, therefore, it is NOT "Bolton roof" by any means. It is a false claim using a false girl. You as the reader should know this. The author has the Boltons set up to fail for a reason.

Not to mention that among Ramsey's demands is the return of Reek.  Jon doesn't have 'Reek' at all and most certainly can't return him.  The PL is designed so that Jon can't meet Ramsey's demands.

The letter isn't designed to get the Night's Watch to go to Winterfell; it's designed to get the Wildlings to go to Winterfell under Jon's command (to whom they have all pledged their allegience).

This is hinting at Mance's ploy which I think runs along the lines of infiltrating the enemy camp by joining the enemy. Exactly what Jon does when he joins the Wildlings.  Mance intends to take Winterfell from Ramsey and negotiate with Stannis.  Melisandre would certainly need to be there to 'splain things to Stannis.

I'd say that Ramsey is also being played; the list of demands appealing to his baser appetites with an add-on at the end, the demand for Reek.  Even Roose recognizes that Ramsey isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

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8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

They don't have to wait because they have advanced copies, and those copies don't include things like the "NK" at Harhome <_<

Or, are you stating that you haven't finished the first book.

Im saying readers of the books should realize the characters aren't privy to us the reader has of what is happening so when certian characters do something out of the ordinary it may be misconstrued as something else

Everyone knows Jeyne is fake. The Iron Throne/Tywin is purposely deceiving the realm (or at least trying to).  knows, Roose, Ramsay, Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Lady Dustin, Lady Dustin's servants, Theon (of course), ok most those people are literally apart of the conspiracy.Of course they'd know about It.

Manderly and those around Manderly, and even the Freys. Remember, Little Elmar Frey was supposed to marry his "princess", who was Arya. Who do they think Ramsay is marrying? I am sure I am forgetting someone, but this should be sufficient.

Elmar never met Arya. He met a peasant girl named nan.

Jeyne is slim, has brown hair and could pass for 11 and called Arya. The treys don't need much else or really care.

Heck, even the BWB is looking for Arya in various places because they know that fArya is false.

Hell, even in the Theon TWOW chapter we see Stannis and his ideas on this fArya, and this chapter takes place before the Jon/Pink Letter chapter. The entire north knows the marriage is fake and Arya is fake. The Iron Throne (the have's) were trying to screw over the have-not's (the realm). A very common theme of GRRM's, and guess who always fails???

Again, evidence. Saying the entire north knows it's fake  doesn't make it so.

And even Theon? The guy has spent most of his life as a ward of the Starks. Of course he's going to tell the difference between a girl he's seen nearly every day since she was a babe and Sansa's pretty friend.

Seriously, the claim this deception is going on is common knowledge is false. 

 

The Boltons have been set up to fail.

Ok?

Wrong again. Lord Manderly brought all of the food and then some. Not the Boltons, and it wouldn't matter anyway because the entire marriage and people involved are a farce.

Good point!  A minor detail that will still be added in the telling of how the Bolton's truly didn't deserve mad Jon's  bastard fury. But seriously, I had forgotten about that. I take my back any insinuation of Mance or any of the spear wives having violated guest right.

There are about three paragraphs that just detail the amount of food Manderly brings along with him. This was in part so that Manderly was careful not to anger the old gods, and therefore this carried over to Mance and the spearwives by proxy.

A farce no one even with suspicions can prove and so are bound to go along.

And again, it is not "Bolton's roof" because it is a mummer's farce of a trick. Everyone in the story knows this and Jeyne Poole is not a Stark. Even the weirwood laughs at this show. The Boltons are squatters, only worse than the innocent ones that Roose had do his dirty work for him and then killed.

 

So Mance and his spear wives, Melisandre, the Mormonts,Davos Stannis, Jon, and Manderly ect ect don't count?

 

Madelyn??? Is this another NK reference?

Lady Barbrey Dustin? If you mean her, then no, she despises the Boltons and she knows Jeyne is not Arya. She tells Theon that Jeyne better stop crying of she is going to keep up the mummers farce.

Lord Wyman Manderly? No. Manderly wants to restore the Starks using Rickon (for his reasons) and he is not buying fArya. He despises the Boltons, and the Freys, and Tywin (to a degree, but maybe not a severe). Remember his son, Wendel? Do you remember the abomination that happens to Wylis? Why do you think Wyman Manderly is bringing the pies? 

He expressed no real thoughts of the marriage being anything but real with Davos. And he like all the lords really doesn't know Arya. Seriously, even when visiting Winterfell how clearly is he going to remember Ned's stark second daughte? 

Well, this is an about face in what you claimed was so wrong with Jon earlier. This is exactly what meddling with the affairs of southron politics is. There is something wrong with that. Just look at the cronyism that creates all of the historic issues between the throne and the citadel, the throne and the faith/7, the throne and the small folk, the throne and the lords who want favors, etc.

Again the NW is dependent on the ruling monarchy. Like it or not they have to play ball and kiss ass on occasion for the things they need so it'd be good to have someone who could parley with them. And to be Slynt was lord commander of KL guard, so it's not like they're picking some with no real experience a military such as the watch

But if cronyism is your thing then tha explains a lot and you don't need to go on.

Pragmitism is my thing. The watch could not exist without the ruling monarchy's blessing and tributes.

 

Hahaha. No. Again, you seem to have these blinders on that keep you from looking at the story as a whole. First off, the various free folk come with a variety of skills and one of them is the know how to survive in harsh conditions.

 

Will people die? Yes, but better they die and NOT return in the tens of thousands to kill the sparsely populated north.

If everyone is so malnourished they can't fight because they are starving, it won't matter there a thousand walkers when people are too broken to fend off one hundred,

 to then only add more to their zombie numbers to crash down on the lower kingdoms. Seriously, there is a book that explains this. Also, there are other Starks that are about to inherit a boatload of food that will travel north if need be. Also, for the immediate, smaller scale future, the wagons and wagons of food that Manderly brought, which paired with the fact that 3/4 of those men that were eating it are now gonna be dead, it will work for the time being. And if and when the battle move to the RIverlands, well, that is a lush area who's population has been drastically decreased with all of the recent wars. They actually need people as well.

Are you claiming that Jon is going to declare war on the Iron Throne? In your mind, if I am reading this correctly, you seem to be saying that Jon is going to let mass starvation happen in an overpopulated north, and then somehow all of these starved (and dead?) people are going to follow him down to King's Landing to declare war, which leaves no one at the wall? Can you back this up at all in any way possible with actual book text and not biased opinion? Any book quotes at all? 

No. Sorry but no. His actions could look from on an onlooker in story to be in effort to use the wildlings to become king is what I pointed out, add the "retrieval" mission on top of it looks really bad for Jon. 

Bowen and friends have already destroyed the wall because they didn't stand strong with their brothers.

What did Jon do to stand with them?  He never really tries to win them.

Hell any sort of chance he's offered that can so he can compromise he almost childishly dismisses it.

Such as allowing a whore in place of a place typically held by those of noble stock, or promoting someone who a few weeks ago was killing their brothers to one of the most respected positions in the watch-master at arms.

When he's found to have let Mance Rayder turn coat and mass murderer to go fetch his sister who does he make plans with? Them no Tormund. And they decided on suicide basicly with their foolhardy mission.

The Others are basically there. There are two types of cold, and the cold that Jon felt at the end of ADWD is the cold from the Others.

And you really need to understand the author as a person better than this. He is an open border policy man. And a feminist. And a "have not". And everything else that a hardcore hippie is. He writes about this in his other stories quite often, as well as on his blog.

Hes in favor of America accepting refugees yes. He's also against slavery; tell me how is mereen working out?

Theres an interesting parallel here between Jon and Dany. They both try to do utterly noble things (free slaves, save thousands) but their blind idealism has cost may cost more live than they saved

 

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54 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I can't help but notice that women are bitches to you.  Perhaps this is your real problem.

 

54 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I can't help but notice that women are bitches to you.  Perhaps this is your real problem.

 Called these specific women bitches not all women bitches.

Which they would be in the eyes of the typical northman.

Perspective people, remember wildlings aren't really human and the embodiment of evil to the average northman.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Not to mention that among Ramsey's demands is the return of Reek.  Jon doesn't have 'Reek' at all and most certainly can't return him.  The PL is designed so that Jon can't meet Ramsey's demands.

The letter isn't designed to get the Night's Watch to go to Winterfell; it's designed to get the Wildlings to go to Winterfell under Jon's command (to whom they have all pledged their allegience).

This is hinting at Mance's ploy which I think runs along the lines of infiltrating the enemy camp by joining the enemy. Exactly what Jon does when he joins the Wildlings.  Mance intends to take Winterfell from Ramsey and negotiate with Stannis.  Melisandre would certainly need to be there to 'splain things to Stannis.

I'd say that Ramsey is also being played; the list of demands appealing to his baser appetites with an add-on at the end, the demand for Reek.  Even Roose recognizes that Ramsey isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Also, the Boltons aren't stupid they'd know once Jon sees her the jig is up and try to murder Jon as soon as possible to keep the news from spreading.

Also if Stannis is alive odds are they'd meet up. 

Maybe this Melisandre's plan all along? Get Jon to go so far there's really no other choice but to execute him to stop him from doing anything worse all to resurrect him and release him from his vows. I mean Mance can take winterfell but that doesn't really assist his people in that none of the wildlings Jon would bring with him would be used to siege warfare there's also the fact of Mance's son being in Jon's custody the best of Mance's knowledge

 

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8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

 Called these specific women bitches not all women bitches.

Which they would be in the eyes of the typical northman.

Perspective people, remember wildlings aren't really human and the embodiment of evil to the average northman.

Women are not bitches or property and there is no justification for Ramsey's sadism even in a work of fiction.  That's the perspective to keep in mind. 

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On 12/18/2017 at 10:42 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

he still acted a bloody fucking idiot to even try to go get her in the first place

Here is the quote of you saying what you never said. I'm done arguing with you ser. We obviously will get no where if I have to backtrack to quote you saying things because you insist you didn't say them. 

 

Quote

Which is not the same as Jon trying to go & get her, which is what you originally said. 

Did I? Quote me where.

 

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11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Women are not bitches or property and there is no justification for Ramsey's sadism even in a work of fiction.  That's the perspective to keep in mind. 

Again these specific women I called bitches because that's what the average northman see them as.

Yeah you're totally right And pillow biters deserve to be able to be able to get married! matter of fact why doesn't westeros disband the monarch and reconstruct their government to be a uber liberal democratic republic with universal health care for all.

Oh wait this a story of a universe based on medieval society where none of those things are a thing.

Women are legally the property of their husbands

Is it right?

Hell no.

But the sad fact is no matter how horrible their husband is to them  a wife always supposed to service her husband in this patriarchal society.

Didn't try to justify his sadism.

 

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5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah you're totally right And pillow biters deserve to be able to be able to get married! matter of fact why doesn't westeros disband the monarch and reconstruct their government to be a uber liberal democratic republic with universal health care for all.

That does work well in Canada.  I pay my taxes, I get health care.

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Women are legally the property of their husbands

Citation?

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But the sad fact is no matter how horrible their husband is to them  a wife always supposed to service her husband in this patriarchal society.

Curiously, many men still think this is the case.

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Didn't try to justify his sadism.

No?  Sure didn't sound like it.

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Hmm, it appears I misspoke earlier. Of

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Here is the quote of you saying what you never said. I'm done arguing with you ser. We obviously will get no where if I have to backtrack to quote you saying things because you insist you didn't say them. 

 

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Here is the quote of you saying what you never said. I'm done arguing with you ser. We obviously will get no where if I have to backtrack to quote you saying things because you insist you didn't say them. 

I didn't say I didn't say them.

I asked you to quote me and you did.

 I honestly misspoke in this instance.

But the tone of my post did come across as needlessly defensive.

Hmm, I am sad to see you not at least concede I wasn't arguing that women should be treated as property or that such a thing is just or that torture is good.

 

 I legitimately wondered how you'd qualify the marriage as having been illegal,or why Tyrion is justified in defending KL from Stannis's invasion while the Boltons are not.

Or how man in the Asoiaf universe  who hasn't read the books been in Jon's head wouldn't be freaked out at Jon's actions with the wildlings.

And why, Jon shouldn't just kill himself if he actually believes Stannis had lost instead of dragging down everything with him.

 

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