Proof that Bran can have an effect on a time that we readers or characters in the story would class as "the past".

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

How is it not proof when GRRM himself inserts the words "Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves".

This is clearly explained to us that Brans voice is what made the whispery wind and rustling leaves, it is not Brans inner thoughts we are hearing as he would not refer to himself as "Bran". It's not Bloodraven clearly as he is not present in the sleeping chamber or in the scene. It is Bran alone so therefore it has to be an author insert to guide our understanding.

 What other possible way do you think we are supposed to read that?. 

It is still somewhat ambiguous. The descriptions we get of people and events in the chapter do usually not include things characters missed or didn't see. If someone is lying to a POV and the POV doesn't realize it then there may or not be subtle hints indicating to the reader that the person is lying - but we don't get confirmation of that from the narrator.

You can stress that it is the narrator's voice that tells us the wind and the leaves are Bran's voice - and you are right that this is the impression the author gives us - but I'd not call that proof at this point.

But, quite frankly, I'm on your side there. I think it is just a matter of the talents and powers of a greenseer to actually literally speak through the faces in the trees. And when this works then speaking through time should also be possible.

The fact that Bran actually tastes the blood of the blood sacrifice to the Winterfell weirwood is another such hint. He doesn't taste the memory of the blood, or has access to the memory of the weirwood. He is actually *there* and tastes the blood through the weirwood.

George really likes time-travel stories, and has written quite a few of them.

I expect it to turn out that a greenseer needs those blood sacrifices on a fairly regular basis to acquire the power to speak through the trees - both in the present and the past - so that we could get a proper explanation as to why Bran might actually be able to interfere with and influence events in the distant past - say, during the Long Night - but not in the immediate past of the Targaryen reign, Robert's Rebellion, and the War of the Five Kings.

It may turn out that he and Bloodraven - and Bloodraven alone back when he saw things unfold - try to reach out to people and actually succeed (and fail) at subtly influencing people. But if it was an easy feat to speak through the trees - both in the present and the past - then this would already have happened. Either Bran would have reached back from a future where he possesses the ability, or Bloodraven would have done it throughout the series - or even before the series began.

In that sense it is quite likely that both sides - the greenseer and the people the greenseer wants to contact - have to open 'the weirwood door' to establish a connection. And that is likely where blood sacrifices come in. If there are none then a greenseer won't be able to contact people in a manner they actually understand. But Bran will be able to speak to the people of Westeros if they revive that ancient custom.

If we don't have that kind of barrier then it makes no sense whatsoever that events unfolded the way they did unfold in the series. Bran and Bloodraven would do anything in their power to stop the War of the Five Kings. It might very well turn out that the sense of foreboding and the feeling that he does belong/should return to Winterfell Ned has in AGoT was actually Bran/Bloodraven's futile attempts to reach him.

If true, then this would be really a tragedy since Ned's desire to return home contributed to his downfall. Had his heart been in the game of thrones, had he really focused on acquiring power and not been distracted by his desire to go home he certainly could have seized the regency after the death of Robert.

[Macgregor of the North]

@LynnS  I love the KOTLT speculation so ill jump in. You seem determined its Howland but i am completely and utterly sold on it being Lyanna.

I think she prays to the old gods at Harrenhal describing her encounter with the squires and how she must enter the tourney to teach them honour and all that jazz. Bran is amused by this as he has already been told the story by Meera and his face briefly appears smiling/laughing on the tree in front of Lyanna as it did with Theon and Lyanna is then inspired to have her shield painted in this fashion. The rest is history.

But Theon is in present time you say, and Lyanna is in the "past". Not to the trees. Past present and future are all one and the same to the trees so there is no differentiation. Plus i have already proven with this post that Bran can have effect on a time we class as the "past".

I like your Howland ideas too though.

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

and you are right that this is the impression the author gives us

What other explanation could you possibly offer? Who else could possibly be inserting those words for us to read if not GRRM himself from his own mind?

Its like the Prologue. GRRM writes that the Other slid forward on silent feet carrying the sharpest sword Will had ever seen.

Thats not Wills thoughts, or Gareds, Waymars or the Others, its GRRM guiding our understanding of whats happening on page.

Genuinely mate, i need to know what separate explanation you have for the declaration on page that Brans voice actually was the whisper in the wind and the rustling in the leaves other than GRRM actually point blank telling us. 

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But, quite frankly, I'm on your side there

Cool , i seem picky above but if im honest its 100% clear cut that the author is telling us clear as day whats going down. No question.   

[Tucu]

50 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Im at work and this thread is livening up so i cant touch on all replies in depth right now but on next break ill apply more thought and get back. Quickly though @Tucu

Im quite sure there is no branch where Bran is actually killed. Jojen saw two boys in Winterfell Garb being flayed by Reek and just assumes one of those is Bran but infact it is one of the millers sons.

In instances where you may think there are other alternate reality branches i think they could possibly just be explained by misunderstanding the actual vision.

I have another take on this. Jojen's vision was not wrong, but having knowledge of it allowed them to change their fates. The miller's boys died to restore balance. As Jaqen puts it:

Quote

"The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest."

 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@LynnS  I love the KOTLT speculation so ill jump in. You seem determined its Howland but i am completely and utterly sold on it being Lyanna.

I think she prays to the old gods at Harrenhal describing her encounter with the squires and how she must enter the tourney to teach them honour and all that jazz. Bran is amused by this as he has already been told the story by Meera and his face briefly appears smiling/laughing on the tree in front of Lyanna as it did with Theon and Lyanna is then inspired to have her shield painted in this fashion. The rest is history.

But Theon is in present time you say, and Lyanna is in the "past". Not to the trees. Past present and future are all one and the same to the trees so there is no differentiation. Plus i have already proven with this post that Bran can have effect on a time we class as the "past".

I like your Howland ideas too though.

Fair enough.  It's open for speculation.  Although I have to go with the notion that Bran must live; so Arthur must die and Howland is the instrument that ensures that Ned lives and Bran is born.   I do think Howland had something to do with Lyanna's disappearance.

I'll also add that Bran sees a vision of the future in his coma dream; starting with the death of Jon Snow:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

I'll say that Jon is dead in this vision because of the reference to warmth fleeing the body in these other passages:
 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

"I will," Sam promised. "I will add my voice to yours, maester. We will both tell them, the two of us together."

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected. For all these years I've lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. I am dying, Sam." Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children? What if the horselords have the truth of it? Will I ride through the night sky forever on a stallion made of flame? Or must I return again to this vale of sorrow? Who can say, truly? Who has been beyond the wall of death to see? Only the wights, and we know what they are like. We know."

When Bran goes 'beyond' the Wall; he is traveling beyond the present and beyond the confines of the planet and seeing the landscape of the future, the terrible knowledge.  

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran spread his arms and flew.

Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him.

Bran's spirit is up and up and up; the only explanation for his ability to see across continents locates him in the realm of space, vast and timeless.  His spirit has gone up to join the stars just as Drogo spirit rides up into the stars from his funeral pyre.

It's Sansa who gives us the location of the heart of darkness, beyond north and north and north.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Sansa VI

From the high battlements of the gatehouse, the whole world spread out below them. Sansa could see the Great Sept of Baelor on Visenya's hill, where her father had died. At the other end of the Street of the Sisters stood the fire-blackened ruins of the Dragonpit. To the west, the swollen red sun was half-hidden behind the Gate of the Gods. The salt sea was at her back, and to the south was the fish market and the docks and the swirling torrent of the Blackwater Rush. And to the north …

She turned that way, and saw only the city, streets and alleys and hills and bottoms and more streets and more alleys and the stone of distant walls. Yet she knew that beyond them was open country, farms and fields and forests, and beyond that, north and north and north again, stood Winterfell.

 

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I like your Howland ideas too though.

Oh, I would just add that I favor Howland for the KotLT because Bran fingers him as the Knight.  For me it falls into the category of 'the things Bran always knew".  For example:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

But it was only a game, and Bran knew it.

Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"Do you recall your history, Bran?" the maester said as they walked. "Tell Osha who they were and what they did, if you can."

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he's Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he'd never faced a finer swordsman." They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

If the crypts are only for lords and kings; how does Bran know that one day he would lie in the crypts as well?

[Macgregor of the North]

32 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have another take on this. Jojen's vision was not wrong, but having knowledge of it allowed them to change their fates. The miller's boys died to restore balance. As Jaqen puts it:

 

An interesting notion for sure but I have always leaned toward the idea of a misinterpretation of vision as this seems to be heavily touched on in the books when it comes to future visions. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@LynnS I see where you're coming from with the whole Bran always knew sort of thing but he never always knew in regards to Howland as the KOTLT situation and it can't really be compared to how he always knew he would lie in the Crypts.

Its very very clear Bran has never ever heard of the KOTLT at that point in his present where he wasn't wed to the trees and has never ever known a single detail about it. He assumes the Crannogman was the Knight simply by the details in the story, or that's my take anyway.

It makes it so much more of an awesome theory that later when his body is wed to the trees and he is present in all time and sees Lyanna praying that he realises that it was not the Crannogman after all but his own aunt and his happy reaction projects on to the tree and Lyanna sees it.

Thats just my preferred theory though and I still like your idea.

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

An interesting notion for sure but I have always leaned toward the idea of a misinterpretation of vision as this seems to be heavily touched on in the books when it comes to future visions. 

It doesn't seem to be just misinterpretation of visions; Melisandre talks about priests erring by "mistaking this must come for this may come". I take this as GRRM letting us know that not all visions are about fixed futures.

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It doesn't seem to be just misinterpretation of visions; Melisandre talks about priests erring by "mistaking this must come for this may come". I take this as GRRM letting us know that not all visions are about fixed futures.

True, that is in the books but also visions that are misinterpreted are also littered through the books too. 

It may well be that Jojen actually saw Bran and Rickon getting flayed and with this info they changed their fates, I'm just not entirely sold on it 100% mate. 

I agree though not all visions are of fixed futures, that would be a little too simple and wouldn't be as fun really. 

 

 

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Thats just my preferred theory though and I still like your idea

I guess what I question is the knowledge that bleeds back through time once Bran is wed to the tree.  There is the notion that his powers have to be awakened in stages.  He dreams of Jon in the crypts  and touching his forehead but isn't sure if it's true or not or just a dream.  It's a fragment of something that happens to Bran in his own future.  So I wonder if there are other fragments of knowledge before the direwolves show up.  The things he always knew in other words; his future self the source of this knowledge.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

We are simply the reader and not part of the story. It was Neds present when he was cleaning Ice and when he was praying for Cat to accept Jon.

In the second instance Bran isnt even born so its technically a future influence. Its wonderfully messed up but i understand it in my own strange way. Bran is always wed to the trees and always present in "time" as far as the Weirwood tree network understands the world because to them the past, present and future are all one and the same.

Bran has always been around through the magic weirwood network. Its just his own physical self that had to catch up to that and when he learns of his involvement in or attendance at certain historic events it is not the event itself that will change as it will have always happened the way it happened but it is Brans perception of the event that will change. 

We are like the trees, and our theories are the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I expect it to turn out that a greenseer needs those blood sacrifices on a fairly regular basis to acquire the power to speak through the trees - both in the present and the past - so that we could get a proper explanation as to why Bran might actually be able to interfere with and influence events in the distant past - say, during the Long Night - but not in the immediate past of the Targaryen reign, Robert's Rebellion, and the War of the Five Kings.

Ooh, sounds like our boys Blood raven and Bran could use some more paste, and entrails hung from the trees! 

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I guess what I question is the knowledge that bleeds back through time once Bran is wed to the tree.  There is the notion that his powers have to be awakened in stages.  He dreams of Jon in the crypts  and touching his forehead but isn't sure if it's true or not or just a dream.  It's a fragment of something that happens to Bran in his own future.  So I wonder if there are other fragments of knowledge before the direwolves show up.  The things he always knew in other words; his future self the source of this knowledge.

I definitely get where your coming from, it's like when Bran thinks how he knows every stone of Winterfell so well, like he has some sort of older knowledge that comes naturally to him somehow rather than him having just learned it from his regular climbing sessions. Like "he always knew" as you say. 

On the Crypts, it is the darkness of the Crypts that seem to awaken his gifts and begin to open his third eye at first. 

Theres interesting stuff on the darkness and third eyes opening in the books and also the WOIAF book. 

"Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that."

AWOIAF:

"These new Lorathi were worshippers of Boash, the Blind God. Rejecting all other deities, the followers of Boash ate no flesh, drank no wine, and walked barefoot through the world, clad only in hair shirts and hides. Their eunuch priests wore eyeless hoods in honor of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the "higher truths" of creation that lay concealed behind the world's illusions."

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

We are like the trees, and our theories are the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made.

I'd say GRRM is more like the trees. To him the past present and future of the story are all one. He can access it all like he is literally wed to the trees. 

We however are stuck in the eternal present of what material we have access too (which is needing revised!) and can merely theorise on what's to come. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'd say GRRM is more like the trees. To him the past present and future of the story are all one. He can access it all like he is literally wed to the trees. 

We however are stuck in the eternal present of what material we have access too (which is needing revised!) and can merely theorise on what's to come. 

Unfortunately, I fear my own predictive skills aren't much better than Melisandre's! 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

57 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh, I would just add that I favor Howland for the KotLT because Bran fingers him as the Knight.  For me it falls into the category of 'the things Bran always knew".  For example:

If the crypts are only for lords and kings; how does Bran know that one day he would lie in the crypts as well?

The crypt isn't just for lords and kings, it's just that only lords and kings get statues...

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Unfortunately, I fear my own predictive skills aren't much better than Melisandre's! 

Same. There are few things I am absolutely certain of on what's to come. 

What I am 100% certain of though is that Bran can effect a time that we would refer to as the past and we will witness it in a more fleshed out fashion on future pages. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The crypt isn't just for lords and kings, it's just that only lords and kings get statues...

Great point LFDL. 

[White Ravens]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Unfortunately, I fear my own predictive skills aren't much better than Melisandre's! 

GRRM is pretty clear on the point that prophecies are problematic at best.  Take your pick between prophecy kicking you in the head as per Tyrion or biting off your dick as per Archmaester Marwen.  The characters in the book don't have much luck predicting future events through the interpretation of prophecies and I suspect that readers who channel all of the word search skills available to them aren't going to fare much better.