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Sansa/Ramsay marriage did not make sense

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5 hours ago, Ser Maverick said:

On a somewhat unrelated note: I like how Littlefinger already has control over the Riverlands, the Vale, and is asking for the North and no red flags are going off in Cersei's head.

He doesn’t have control over the Riverlands in the show. Walder Frey is Lord Paramount there,

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3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

He doesn’t have control over the Riverlands in the show. Walder Frey is Lord Paramount there,

Doesn’t he have Harrenhal, which pulls a lot of weight (for some reason)?

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59 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Doesn’t he have Harrenhal, which pulls a lot of weight (for some reason)?

He owns a castle. Unlike Walder Frey, he has no standing army loyal to him.

LF had no real power over the Riverlands, that power belong to the Lannisters and the Freys.

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One thing that bothered me was LF, despite supposedly being a brilliant mastermind, knowing nothing of Ramsay's nature, even though the latter made iirc no particular effort to hide it. Unless the show meant for him to be incompetent?

Also LF handing Sansa over to the Boltons makes little sense from either from a romantic(*) or a political perspective, unless he'd left an agent to watch over her. Even then, it seems he'd want to keep her in sight.

Once Sansa got into Winterfell (assuming some realistic way of getting her there), I'd have liked to see a little more agency. Perhaps it's unreasonable for me to expect her to take a role like Manderly or the spearwives in the books; but something between that and near-complete passivity would have been nice.

(*)I don't know that it's what most of us would consider genuinely romantic. A bizarre mixture of lust, unhealthy obsession, and political expediency.

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6 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

One thing that bothered me was LF, despite supposedly being a brilliant mastermind, knowing nothing of Ramsay's nature, even though the latter made iirc no particular effort to hide it. Unless the show meant for him to be incompetent?

Also LF handing Sansa over to the Boltons makes little sense from either from a romantic(*) or a political perspective, unless he'd left an agent to watch over her. Even then, it seems he'd want to keep her in sight.

Once Sansa got into Winterfell (assuming some realistic way of getting her there), I'd have liked to see a little more agency. Perhaps it's unreasonable for me to expect her to take a role like Manderly or the spearwives in the books; but something between that and near-complete passivity would have been nice.

(*)I don't know that it's what most of us would consider genuinely romantic. A bizarre mixture of lust, unhealthy obsession, and political expediency.

Agreed. 

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On 11/8/2017 at 0:34 PM, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Littlefinger played everyone with the Sansa/Ramsay wedding.  He convinced Sansa that marrying Ramsay would put her in a position to not only get revenge on the Bolton's for the Red Wedding, but also put her in a position to reclaim the North. He convinced Roose Bolton that the marriage would help to solidify the Bolton's hold on the North and would legitimize him as Warden of the North, as far as the people of the North are concerned.  He then convinced Cersei that the wedding was Roose's idea, and that he would ride North with the Knights of the Vale to go get Sansa, send her back to KL to face the crown, all in hopes that Cersei/Tommen would name him Warden of the North, for his efforts.  He then convinced Sweet Robyn and the Knights of the Vale that the Bolton's had kidnapped Sansa and that she needed rescuing, which is why Robyn had Ser Royce lead the army North to WF. 

Littlefinger played everybody and convinced them all that things were the way they were for reasons other than the truth.  All of those lies were nothing more than a power play, to put himself in a position to become Warden of the North and marry Sansa himself eventually...

The flaw there is that there never any plan for how exactly Sansa is going to 'get revenge'....LF seems to imply that she can just sex up Ramsay and get him to fall for her and then voila, she will be in control.  But, this is a pretty bad plan.  And Sansa's actions @ WF don't really support that, she is rude to everyone, never trying to seduce Ramsay at all.  

I would say this is a fatal flaw in the plan, especially with Stannis having been still alive at the time of the arrangement.

Also, in this plan, many parties have to act out of their established characters.  Roose Bolton would simply have killed LF once he got Sansa.  And the Vale lords, similarly, would have figured out that Sansa wasn't kidnapped by the Boltons and would never have stood pat for an entire season in WF.

So, I really don't think it hangs together as a reasonable plan, even if one assumes that LF believed Stannis would lose.  How was he going to get Sansa back?  It was, again, only by massive plot contrivance, that Ramsay left WF to engage Jon outside the walls and so was vulnerable....

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I also feel like the show has given too much of a role to Ramsay. In the books, he was a fairly minor character I thought whom we only see through Theon but is otherwise not seen at all through any other POV chars. IMO, his character does not demand nearly the amount of screentime and focus the show has given him. If I had to rewrite the whole thing I would have done it like this:

- Sansa remains in the Vale where she learns from LF. She eventually beats LF at his own game, has him killed/imprisoned/whatever and takes control of the Vale.

- As per the books, Ramsay marries a fake Arya (does not have to be Jeyne), which brings Brienne to WF and entices Sansa to plot a WF takeback now that her "sister" is in the hands of the Boltons.

- Sansa plans to unite the Vale with Jon Snow to take back WF after hearing Jon is the new LC and has the Wildling army behind him.

- Brienne attempts a covert kidnap of "Arya" but runs into Theon who tells her it's not the real Arya. Brienne persuades Theon to leave with her and together they leave WF.

- Brienne and Theon hook up with Sansa as she makes her way to the wall.

- I suppose from here Theon goes back to the Islands and Brienne joins Sansa's company.

- Sansa and Jon unite and take back WF together.

As for S7, instead of the sister-rivalry nonsense, you could say - have Arya continue to serve up Frey-pie and then have Sansa, with her now uber-politix skills, make moves on the Riverlands which now has a massive power vaccum with the Freys gone, bringing the Riverlands into alliance with the North and being useful instead of being a whiny b1tch towards Jon.

All this makes it a bit more in line with the novels and does the characters justice. This would make Sansa more likeable and more capable (as she should be).

Edited by Skyrazer

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I just had a bizarre thought. What if fake Arya is ... Brienne? There'd have to be some kind of reason, though. It's no good complaining the show doesn't make sense if one's fixes don't make sense either.

Or perhaps fake Arya really is Arya. That'd require her leaving Braavos earlier. 

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The whole rape scene with Sansa and Ramsey was just for shock value and unfortunately it ruined a lot of the following season with their female characters. D&D adjusted the female direction to "girl power" after the backlash and I believe led to a lot of the problems of that season and possibly the seventh as well.

Also, Iwan Rheon did a fantastic job with that role, so naturally, you would want to give him more screen time. But the whole him and Sansa scene and marriage was handled extremely poorly and honestly doesn't make much sense. 
 

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It was disturbing show business mindset to even think of such a storyline to get a scene like that and to plan it for years is just too creepy. Now, given all of the seedy stuff being exposed on show bizz inustry, it is not surprising.

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Oh yes, thee's also that. And the actresses look nothing alike. Maybe Ramsay and the Northern lords are really stupid and don't notice, because the plot said so. Not that anyone will want to increase that extra-logical element in the show.

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On 11/15/2017 at 3:36 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

It was disturbing show business mindset to even think of such a storyline to get a scene like that and to plan it for years is just too creepy. Now, given all of the seedy stuff being exposed on show bizz inustry, it is not surprising.

Wonder why they wanted to have Sansa given to the Boltons. Maybe an in-universe fantasy of Littlefinger’s, coming with an army to save Sansa from her abusive husband? Brrr...

 

On 11/16/2017 at 11:59 AM, Count Balerion said:

Oh yes, thee's also that. And the actresses look nothing alike. Maybe Ramsay and the Northern lords are really stupid and don't notice, because the plot said so. Not that anyone will want to increase that extra-logical element in the show.

The Northern lords are weak. I guess the North forgot, just look at what happened when no one wanted to help Jon and Sansa. Also, no one tried to help Sansa while she was married to Ramsay.

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17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Wonder why they wanted to have Sansa given to the Boltons. Maybe an in-universe fantasy of Littlefinger’s, coming with an army to save Sansa from her abusive husband? Brr.....

I only the no the worst of intentions as to why they went that way.

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2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I only the no the worst of intentions as to why they went that way.

I only the no?

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7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I only the no?

My phone wants to be strangled.

 What I mean is that I think their motivations for "that scene" was worse/ more graphic than was aired. These show business people seem to be really creepy. 

 

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On 15/11/2017 at 9:36 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

It was disturbing show business mindset to even think of such a storyline to get a scene like that and to plan it for years is just too creepy. Now, given all of the seedy stuff being exposed on show bizz inustry, it is not surprising.

Oh yes, it was. It's like the polar bear thing, but in a much more disturbing way. For instance, they wanted a polar bear wight, so they wrote a wight hunt. So they were interested in a "sex" scene, and decided to rape Sansa. It was horrible.

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37 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Oh yes, it was. It's like the polar bear thing, but in a much more disturbing way. For instance, they wanted a polar bear wight, so they wrote a wight hunt. So they were interested in a "sex" scene, and decided to rape Sansa. It was horrible.

I felt like it was rehashing the storyline of Sansa stuck with a psycho, like she’s been for 3 seasons. Except that this one (Ramsay) is married to her and by law can do as he wishes... which partially made her a plot device for Theon’s redemption, Brianne an idiot for leaving to kill Stannis, and a big ol’ yank the dog’s chain.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I felt like it was rehashing the storyline of Sansa stuck with a psycho, like she’s been for 3 seasons. Except that this one (Ramsay) is married to her and by law can do as he wishes... which partially made her a plot device for Theon’s redemption, Brianne an idiot for leaving to kill Stannis, and a big ol’ yank the dog’s chain.

Yes, same stuff, less development and much more gross. Like, it's the story of Jeyne as important that they have to focus on the rape thing? And if it's as  important, why do they make Sansa the victim? Response: It was not important for the plot. We are talking about a show that has cut an incredible amount of material. If they are focusing on rape it's because they want. They could do Theon's redemption in another way.

And yes, Brienne's candle story was incredibly stupid and infuriating. Like, she does nothing to help her. But later, in the final minute she has the courage to go to the battlefield to kill Stannis when he is injured. But as a knight, she didn't save Sansa. Season 5 is, IMHO, the worst, even worse than s7, which is the second one in terms of bad writing IMO.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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It irks me that Sansa was shifted around to suit other characters (Ramsay, Theon, Brienne) who are less important. IMO, Sansa is one of the central characters and I would place her one tier below Jon & Dany (who are our two "Ice & Fire" characters), so Ramsay/Theon/Brienne are secondary to Sansa and they should be moved around to suit Sansa's arc (if need be), not the other way round.

It's like they wanted their cartoon villain for the North, and they went about making Ramsay it at Sansa's expense.

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