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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

What will Iron Bank do if NW doesn't pay debts?

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15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Arya already knows too many of the FM's secrets. She plays along and does what they say or they put a hit out on her. There won't be any sending her off with a friendly wave if she would choose to leave. The training FM who don't measure up would have to be put to death to keep their secrets. She walked right into the cage.

 

I don't see anything anywhere that

1. They whack their washouts  

2. They don't let people leave/retire without whacking them

3. She is doing poorly

4. She has any intention of leaving

In fact we see the exact opposite of most of that. She is learning beautifully (or scarily depending on perspective). They all get along swimmingly. And the fact that they don't force you to whack people you know means she'll never have a reason to leave, least of all with bad blood. She isn't a prisoner - Jaqen and the Mercy chapter are pretty clear that as she gets more seniority she'll be able to go off for months or years on missions.

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2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

No quote. It just doesn't pass the logic test for that world. The FM lose their value if anyone could do it and there's no shortage of people who would pay for that secret. We have no indication that anyone but the FM can do this which means they must have been taking thorough precautions that the secret didn't get out. I doubt they let anyone go on their honor as a boy/girl scout. There are slavers about and their freedom is tied to keeping this secret.

That's fair. 

I think it is possible that what you say could be true but at this point we don't have anything which confirms it.

What do you think about Brusco? I think it is suspicious that Arya works for him via the FM on two different 'missions'. Is it possible he is an outside friend of the FM? Of course, this doesn't mean he is a former FM, but it seems likely he knows more than the average Braavosi.

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What do you think about Brusco? I think it is suspicious that Arya works for him via the FM on two different 'missions'. Is it possible he is an outside friend of the FM? Of course, this doesn't mean he is a former FM, but it seems likely he knows more than the average Braavosi.

I tried to bring this up in a different thread.  Both Brusco and the kindly man say the exact same thing in the same chapter. Coincidence maybe.  It struck me odd.

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals      "Boots."     "Good boots are hard to find," said Brusco, "but these are too small for my feet."

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals      This time she did not hesitate. "Dareon is dead. The black singer who was sleeping at the Happy Port. He was really a deserter from the Night's Watch. Someone slit his throat and pushed him into a canal, but they kept his boots."         "Good boots are hard to find."

I think the FM send Arya into a controlled environment. Please take into consideration that I also think Tobho Mott’s place is a FM safe house/meeting place.

Reason being Mott’s doors showed:   The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood.

When Arya arrived at the HoBaW she found:      The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony.

Merely my ramblings.

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4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I tried to bring this up in a different thread.  Both Brusco and the kindly man say the exact same thing in the same chapter. Coincidence maybe.  It struck me odd.

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals      "Boots."     "Good boots are hard to find," said Brusco, "but these are too small for my feet."

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals      This time she did not hesitate. "Dareon is dead. The black singer who was sleeping at the Happy Port. He was really a deserter from the Night's Watch. Someone slit his throat and pushed him into a canal, but they kept his boots."         "Good boots are hard to find."

Wow! Nice catch! :bowdown:

I have to run but I will try and respond to the rest later. Just had to say how awesome that find is before I forgot. I'd be interested if you started a new thread on this idea.

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18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Planetos doesn't see killing children as criminal behavior. Some do see it as immoral, but they're unfortunately too much in the minority.

Uh, yes, they do.  See the entire Dornish Revenge Plot.  Or, how about Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion, supported by dozens of men, for the attempted murder of a child.

18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Also, if the loan was made to Jon personally, the non-payment of that loan could be used to blackmail Arya into doing something they think she'd otherwise not be willing to do

It wasn't.  It is explicitly made to the Night's Watch.  When you are resorting to making shit up out of whole cloth in order to support a still-specious argument, you know you're in trouble.

18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The training FM who don't measure up would have to be put to death to keep their secrets. She walked right into the cage.

We already know that it's possible for FM to go rogue, which undermines your point quite a bit.  Not that I think the FM will be all smiles and bon voyage should Arya leave, but the idea that it's an automatic death sentence is silly as well.  They are men with special skills, not omniscient and omnipotent beings, as evidenced by Jaqen H'Ghar being in the Black Cells instead of, you know... doing his job.

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3 hours ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

I don't see anything anywhere that

1. They whack their washouts  

2. They don't let people leave/retire without whacking them

3. She is doing poorly

4. She has any intention of leaving

In fact we see the exact opposite of most of that. She is learning beautifully (or scarily depending on perspective). They all get along swimmingly. And the fact that they don't force you to whack people you know means she'll never have a reason to leave, least of all with bad blood. She isn't a prisoner - Jaqen and the Mercy chapter are pretty clear that as she gets more seniority she'll be able to go off for months or years on missions.

I explained 1 and 2. If you don't agree that's ok. I didn't say 3. I seems pretty likely that she'll want to leave to live her own life especially if an opportunity to meet up with family comes up. I don't agree that Arya would freely choose the FM over her family. Being a true No One implies certain things and Arya isn't exactly drinking the Kool-Aid.

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2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

That's fair. 

I think it is possible that what you say could be true but at this point we don't have anything which confirms it.

What do you think about Brusco? I think it is suspicious that Arya works for him via the FM on two different 'missions'. Is it possible he is an outside friend of the FM? Of course, this doesn't mean he is a former FM, but it seems likely he knows more than the average Braavosi.

Yup. No proof. But unless GRRM comes up with a more creative reason than I can come up with for why the secret's not gotten out or been used to enslave Braavos/take over the IB/etc, then I'll have to go with that they kill to keep the secret especially as killing people is their thing. That said, I don't think they'll succeed in killing Arya because that ending doesn't really make sense to me.

I've not thought about Brusco. I'd have to reread to answer but looks like that's been covered nicely!

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Wow! Nice catch! :bowdown:

I have to run but I will try and respond to the rest later. Just had to say how awesome that find is before I forgot. I'd be interested if you started a new thread on this idea.

Maybe she will have reason to take the singer's likeness too. 

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11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Maybe she will have reason to take the singer's likeness too. 

Are you suggesting another face in the bank?

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20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Arya already knows too many of the FM's secrets.

What secrets?  She's an apprentice, and a brand new one at that.  She knows about the face library, but I suspect that has leaked out, and it provides a nice cover story for their real methods of disguise, which are far more effective and easy to use.  The face library is awfully clunky.  Besides, she doesn't know how to use it.  I can't think of anything else she knows that is all that secret.  Certainly not, say, anyone's identity. 

She knows about the femoral artery (maybe).  Any experienced soldier could tell you that.  She knows a bit about poisons.  Any maester probably knows more.  If she knows actual methods of killing, I haven't seen it.  She doesn't know how they decide on targets or pricing.  She knows very little if anything truly sensitive, and they can give her a stern warning to keep her mouth shut, which she probably would in any case.  The FM doesn't seem like the sort of outfit you brag about.

Also, they could make it a condition of her departure that she help them if she is asked.  Given that she is from a prominent Westeros family, that could be quite useful; potentially more so than being an assassin.  My guess is that they have a whole network of washouts or retirees who do this sort of thing.

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Just now, Nevets said:

What secrets?  She knows about the face library, but I suspect that has leaked out, and it provides a nice cover story for their real methods of disguise, which are far more effective and easy to use.  The face library is awfully clunky.  Besides, she doesn't know how to use it.  I can't think of anything else she knows that is all that secret.  

She knows about the femoral artery (maybe).  Any experienced soldier could tell you that.  She knows a bit about poisons.  Any maester probably knows more.  If she knows actual methods of killing, I haven't seen it.  She doesn't know how they decide on targets or pricing.  She knows very little if anything truly sensitive, and they can give her a stern warning to keep her mouth shut, which she probably would in any case.  The FM doesn't seem like the sort of outfit you brag about.

Also, they could make it a condition of her departure that she help them if she is asked.  Given that she is from a prominent Westeros family, that could be quite useful; potentially more so than being an assassin.  My guess is that they have a whole network of washouts or retirees who do this sort of thing.

The Mercy chapter implies she's since learned a lot. And the intent is that she does learn these things otherwise what's the point?

We might differ on this, but I wouldn't stake my freedom, the freedom of everyone I know and love, my entire city and culture, the cause of containing slavery and ideally eradicating slavery on trust that someone doesn't give away the secret. Requiring that someone become No One is a hardcore requirement and the FM are not nice guys. Good cause in the slavery aspect, but not nice guys.

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5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The Mercy chapter implies she's since learned a lot. And the intent is that she does learn these things otherwise what's the point?

We might differ on this, but I wouldn't stake my freedom, the freedom of everyone I know and love, my entire city and culture, the cause of containing slavery and ideally eradicating slavery on trust that someone doesn't give away the secret. Requiring that someone become No One is a hardcore requirement and the FM are not nice guys. Good cause in the slavery aspect, but not nice guys.

What secret are you referring to?  That they originated with slaves in Valyria? Doesn't sound like an existential threat to me.   That she has to become no one?  She knew about that she when she was given a chance to leave, which I think was genuine.

If she learns about sensitive stuff, like secret methods of killing, or operational details, I will become seriously worried.  Until then, not so much.    

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17 minutes ago, Nevets said:

What secret are you referring to?  That they originated with slaves in Valyria? Doesn't sound like an existential threat to me.   That she has to become no one?  She knew about that she when she was given a chance to leave, which I think was genuine.

If she learns about sensitive stuff, like secret methods of killing, or operational details, I will become seriously worried.  Until then, not so much.    

I actually don't know because we haven't been told yet. Whatever it was when Jaqen turned around and had a different face. I think it's possible (to the extent of our very limited knowledge) that her situation in Mercy may have been done for her, and not by her meaning her knowledge may not be complete. Dunno.

I think the intent is that she does learn this eventually, so whether she's there or not, it's only a matter of time.

Speculation: That said, I think she was recruited as both a skinchanger and a Stark implying that the FM may know something about the Starks which the Starks themselves do not and it might be an advantage regarding dragons, thus she'd warrant special treatment as she's not exactly easily replaceable. I'm guessing that Arya will find herself blackmailed or trapped rather than under the threat of murder.

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16 minutes ago, Nevets said:

What secret are you referring to?  That they originated with slaves in Valyria? Doesn't sound like an existential threat to me.   That she has to become no one?  She knew about that she when she was given a chance to leave, which I think was genuine.

If she learns about sensitive stuff, like secret methods of killing, or operational details, I will become seriously worried.  Until then, not so much.    

I agree here. It got the impression that she doesn't get any real secrets until after she "drinks from the cold cup" and takes vows--and also that they don't let you do that until they are satisfied that you really are no one, so nothing at this point preventing an amicable breakup.

So far everything she knows is probably pretty common knowledge, especially among the Braavosi--but everyone even in Westeros knows they are the best assassins in the business (otherwise they wouldn't get much business). They have given her intensive language training, and they are training her to blend into communities and pay attention to what's around her to learn (it strikes me that the FM are actually in the business of constant information gathering--which makes sense; if someone comes to them with a prayer, they may already know a great deal about the intended--they may even be doing some forecasting about possible future prayers, who knows), and more than anything else, it seems like they are sharpening the skills she already has, but not with anything particularly classified. I think, as part of her constant "three new things" assignment, she is probably starting to provide them with more privileged information than they are giving her.

I do not doubt there is some connection between the Iron Bank an the Faceless Men, but I really don't think it extends to the FM permitting (or offering) their own novices or acolytes to be held as collateral against a loan.

The impression I had from Jon's thought was that they would be in debt to the IB just about forever, which would probably suit the IB just fine; I don't think he was expecting the NW to default. Of course, if he is out of the picture, and the NW takes the loan but blows off the debt, I would guess the IB would do what they do, and support a new mutiny on the Wall in favor of an LC who will make payments.

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2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Maybe she will have reason to take the singer's likeness too. 

Not feasible.She could maybe take his face, but she's rather too small to pass as an adult male.

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17 minutes ago, Therae said:

I agree here. It got the impression that she doesn't get any real secrets until after she "drinks from the cold cup" and takes vows--and also that they don't let you do that until they are satisfied that you really are no one, so nothing at this point preventing an amicable breakup.

So far everything she knows is probably pretty common knowledge, especially among the Braavosi--but everyone even in Westeros knows they are the best assassins in the business (otherwise they wouldn't get much business). They have given her intensive language training, and they are training her to blend into communities and pay attention to what's around her to learn (it strikes me that the FM are actually in the business of constant information gathering--which makes sense; if someone comes to them with a prayer, they may already know a great deal about the intended--they may even be doing some forecasting about possible future prayers, who knows), and more than anything else, it seems like they are sharpening the skills she already has, but not with anything particularly classified. I think, as part of her constant "three new things" assignment, she is probably starting to provide them with more privileged information than they are giving her.

I do not doubt there is some connection between the Iron Bank an the Faceless Men, but I really don't think it extends to the FM permitting (or offering) their own novices or acolytes to be held as collateral against a loan.

The impression I had from Jon's thought was that they would be in debt to the IB just about forever, which would probably suit the IB just fine; I don't think he was expecting the NW to default. Of course, if he is out of the picture, and the NW takes the loan but blows off the debt, I would guess the IB would do what they do, and support a new mutiny on the Wall in favor of an LC who will make payments.

The bolded: it really looks like she was recruited because she was a Stark and her recruitment looked very targeted. Just me maybe, but I don't think they truly want her to be no one. It's just part of her training using reverse psychology to which I quoted Catelyn before. Tell her to be No One, she'll want to be a Stark. As such, I don't think she was ever intended to be a true acolyte, more because she (and the other Starks?) may have some special angle in regards to the dragons. As such, I see the collateral thing as very plausible.

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6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The bolded: it really looks like she was recruited because she was a Stark and her recruitment looked very targeted. Just me maybe, but I don't think they truly want her to be no one. It's just part of her training using reverse psychology to which I quoted Catelyn before. Tell her to be No One, she'll want to be a Stark. As such, I don't think she was ever intended to be a true acolyte, more because she (and the other Starks?) may have some special angle in regards to the dragons. As such, I see the collateral thing as very plausible.

I don't know if it's that they don't want her to become no one or just that they (rightly) don't expect she ever will, but certainly you could be onto something. In particular, the reverse psychology is just about the only thing that makes any sense of the Kindly Man's suggestions as alternatives to staying at the HoBaW--a courtesan-in-training, a wife of whatever she would consider a good husband, a ride back to Westeros. I think the conversation he had had with her up to that point would have made it clear to him that she would dismiss any of those options and choose to stick around for the meanwhile.

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3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Are you suggesting another face in the bank?

Not necessarily...

Quote

“Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with."

 

Quote

“The bones help,” said Melisandre. “The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming.”

 

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1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Not feasible.She could maybe take his face, but she's rather too small to pass as an adult male.

I am sure you are right... but, still, I wonder...

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