Thoughts on "The Rogue Prince"

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

.Gyldayn’s introduction to the topic feels a bit awkward- after all, we will not read exclusively about the (mis)deeds of Daemon Targaryen.

.Yeah, the rogue prince played a major part in the bloodletting known as the Dance of the Dragons.

.Well, it appears that the Dance was about two conflicting views concerning the law and its interpretation and on the very nature of the monarchy.

.Keep in mind that Jaehaerys was the one who first employed Ser Otto as Hand and not Viserys or Aegon II.

.Robar Baratheon, Septon Barth, Ryam Redwyne, Baelon the Brave, Otto Hightower- the five Hands of King Jaehaerys. Three of them are widely acknowledged as successes (Robar, Barth, Baelon) Ryam was known as a failure and Otto was very methodical and overall competent.

.Many Hands brought their families to court, like Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark, so I fail to see why anyone should hold this against Ser Otto.

.And, after Jaehaerys’ death, the most glorious part of Targaryen domination over Westeros was over.

.The Great Council of 101, expressing the collective will of the nobility, was perhaps the best political move ever performed in Westeros.

.When we read about Viserys’ ascension, let us not forget that both the Old and the Young King climbed those twisted steps by the principle of agnatic primogeniture.

.House Arryn, in both male and female members, seems very prone to losing male heirs.

.The whole stuff about feasts and tourneys reminds me of King Robert’s court, which was also full of those things.

.So, the Targaryens used popular mediums of entertainment like songs to have better appeal to their subjects.

.”Like many other highborn girls”- sadly, we have no information about that custom. Yeah, we know about fostering and squiring options for boys, but the sole example of a girl, other than Rhaenyra, to serve as cupbearer, is Arianne Martell serving the Archon of Tyrosh.

.Well, anyone in a position of such a power would act brusque and haughty.

.Earning his knight’s spurs at six-and-ten, wielding Dark Sister, despising his lady wife… not surprising that Ser Otto found he would be a second Maegor, given how similar they look in a single paragraph.

.Daemon’s dislike for House Royce and the antipathy the Royces had for him may explain why Runestone did not appear to send any men to fight for Rhaenyra during the Dance.

.If Daemon was Master of Coin from 103 to 104 AC, what became of Lyman Beesbury at that time, since we are later told that Lyman had served the Old King as Master of Coin.

.So, Ironrod must have filled the office after 104.

.”Governance bored the warrior prince”- at least Maegor, who was a tyrant, was interested in ruling and ruled the Kingdoms with an iron fist. Daemon here exhibits Maegor’s cruelty, but no desire to actually sit in a council meeting and work like a politician.

.And, here begins the long history of the gold cloaks, an institution filled with corruption, if Janos Slynt and Allar Deem are any sort of example.

.I wonder how much Daemon’s “discipline” was just a brutal corruption masked as lawful suppression of criminals.

.He slew three men in street brawls in his first year- they are not named as criminals, meaning that most likely they were just common folk of King’s Landing.

.Well, if he entered the wineskins freely and gambled with no limit, then surely a form of corruption existed, similar to how US police forces were corrupt and often working with mobsters in the Great Depression.

.Maegor had his Tyanna, Daemon has his Mysaria- another parallel, though Mysaria can act as a parallel to Alys Harroway, as well.

.Viserys’ behavior when it comes to Daemon resembles Aenys’ when it comes to Maegor- the difference is that, while Aenys had a strong bloodline, Viserys had only Rhaenyra.

.It seems Daemon had set eyes on Rhaenyra from a very early moment, much like Maegor, whose mother wanted him to marry Rhaena and strengthen his claim to the Throne.

.Nah, don’t think Daemon deflowered Alicent. Even if one subscribes to the school of thought that considers Otto an uber-ambitious scoundrel, he had no advantage in shoving his daughter to the bed of a royal brother already married and rejected as successor.

.So, it seems the City Watch was more like Daemon’s private army and not a police force. Subtly, but clearly, Gyldayn conveys his message.

.Here, we get to see why the Dance was based on differing views on the monarchy- the Andal and First Men law (and do not tell me that, prior to the Conquest, there were no written laws, for I will remind you that the Conqueror sought to judge his subjects the way their former kings judged them, while the Conciliator created a legal code for all of Westeros) states that a son comes before a daughter, but a daughter comes before an uncle, while Jaehaerys’ precedent, which both he and Viserys followed when they ascended the Iron Throne, stated that an uncle comes before a daughter. However, on no account, does a daughter come before a son.

.So, Viserys initially hoped to sire a son on Aemma.

.Enter Ser Criston Cole!

.Daemon is a man who never forgives- surely he must have hated Criston for defeating him.

.Man, using a Valyrian steel sword at a melee- all the more proof that he liked to physically harm and humiliate his opponents.

.Rhaenyra’s infatuation with Criston proves that Mushroom’s tale has more credence than Eustace’s, when it comes to who was the object of Rhaenyra’s affections.

.And, here are the Strongs!

.The name Baelon must be very, very unlucky.

.”Heir for a day”-man, why all this cruelty and the joy in your own brother’s grief?

.Maybe the captain was Harwin Strong, meaning that the Hightowers and the Velaryons were not alone in their ambitions.

.Viserys doing his movement- it seems that, at the moment, he did it to spite Daemon, but in doing so, he called in question legal traditions of at least 8,000 years.

.Ironic that the staunchest Rhaenyra supporters- Daemon and the Velaryons- did not swear obeisance to her as Viserys’ heir.

.So, no matter that it was not his seat, Daemon acted as if he were Prince of Dragonstone.

.Daemon ordered to either abandon Mysaria or be attainted as a traitor- see why I earlier said Mysaria is a parallel to both Tyanna of the Tower and Alys Harroway?

.Well, I don’t think Daemon ever had any brotherly love for Viserys, especially seeing how he reacted to the news that the son his brother desired had passed away.

.There was a sound argument in Runciter’s words, but Viserys chose not to hear.

.You see, whomever Viserys had married, when he sired a son, his wife’s family would expect him to be named as heir. No reason to despise Otto and Alicent for expecting what was normal in Westeros (save for Dorne) for thousands of years.

.Viserys ought to expect that Alicent would not be his toy, to use her sexually and then treat her children as just legitimized royal bastards.

.So, Corlys Velaryon would have no objection to the hypothetical marriage between Viserys and Laena.

.Daemon’s wroth can be explained this way: Alicent was fecund and she would give Viserys sons, thus pushing him further down in the succession line, making the whole thing another Maegor parallel.

.So, Daemon now attempts to seize the Stepstones. A few decades earlier, a Targaryen royal brother and a Velaryon admiral had done something similar, when they hunted down a Saan pirate king.

.Anti-merchant prejudice and anti-Essos prejudice combined.

.Would like to know more about the Black Swan of Lys.

.We hear Corlys’ objections, but no Redwyne, Manderly, Lannister or Borrell lord had objections to that. Did they avoid the Stepstones or the tolls were not that high for them, or simply Corlys was deeply prejudiced against the Myrish, who did not share the Valyrian looks?

.If Viserys considered Daemon troublesome, then why embrace him back countless times?

.The whole thing about Daemon donning a crown in the Stepstones while still harboring desires to rule over Westeros reminds me of Maelys the Monstrous and the Band of Nine.

.Racalio Ryndoon, the pirate king- sounds like a cool person.

.Dorne joining the war against Daemon- the grievance of the Dornish against the Targaryens did not stop with the end of the Vulture King.

.And now Viserys has the male heir he had originally desired.

.I start to wonder if Viserys loved his daughter so much just because she was his child with Aemma.

.Man, the whole Rhaenyra/Criston affair makes her seem like a spoiled and petulant child.

.Real-life medieval monarchs could not violate so soundly all the legal precedents. If cognatic primogeniture prevailed, how many of the lords of Westeros would find themselves unable to keep their elder sisters at bay and how many of their firstborn sons would have their inheritance bitterly contested? Lest we forget, both Jaehaerys and Viserys ascended at the Throne by the principle of agnatic primogeniture, which the Conqueror and Aenys had also favored. What Viserys is doing here undermines the very essence of the political philosophy the most gifted Targaryen monarch and he himself became King.

.Man, seeing that Otto had served Viserys ably and was pushed out of office due to expressing the view most Westerosi agreed to (agnatic primogeniture), the whole thing has an Aerys/Tywin vibe.

.So, we don’t know whether Lyonel Strong agreed to Viserys’ views on the succession, since the text describes him as “taciturn”.

.I guess that Ironrod was appointed as Master of Laws after Lyonel Strong was elevated to Handship.

.If Viserys wanted his daughter’s rule to be uncontested, he ought to officially disinherit his sons and ship them off to the Citadel, Faith or Night’s Watch.

.So, Rhaenyra chooses her attire in order to point out that she is more Targaryen than her stepmother and half-siblings.

.The whole Rhaenyra/Criston thing surely did not help the princess.

.Daemon made a rather superficial show of affection and obeisance to Viserys.

.Rhaenyra was thrilled by Daemon’s return- mayhaps because they shared a common enemy.

.What seat did he resume? Master of Laws or Master of Coin? Whom did he supplant? Or did he just resume his post as Commander of the City Watch? If so, whom did he oust or demote as his second?

.Well, it was foolish of everyone to expect that Daemon would change.

.Hah, that’s why he whipped the serving man some years earlier, not because he had any affection towards Alicent.

.Daemon had cast a wide net around Rhaenyra, it seems.

.And now, our sources diverge.

.Eustace’s tale comes from Ser Arryk Cargyll, it seems.

.No, I don’t think Daemon claimed her maidenhead, for he would be in great risk if he did that.

.On the other hand, his whole plot to make Rhaenyra act in a manner unfit for a princess and presumptive heir to the throne suits his agenda of spreading corruption everywhere he could.

.I assume that Mushroom has it right about Criston. As we see later, Criston was a believer in both Andal law and the Faith of the Seven (the part in “The Princess and the Queen” where he repeats the Faith’s attitude towards bastard children), so he could not or would not bring himself to have a relationship with Rhaenyra.

.From what I understand, Daemon’s plan was to capitalize on Rhaenyra’s infatuation with Criston, make her act in a way that besmirched her honor and then appear as a “savior” who would agree to take her to wife, thus strengthening his own claim to the Throne.

.Eustace arguing for not executing Daemon- a bit weird, if he is the pro-Aegon II historian some people claim he was.

.It’s marriage time, again!

.Well, it was natural that a lot of lordlings would try to win her hand in marriage.

.So, at that point, Ser Tyland is not already Master of Ships, if he is at Casterly Rock.

.Lyonel Strong did not lack for ambitions, either.

.While I strongly disapprove of any form of incest, a marriage between Aegon and Rhaenyra would actually work, since the argument whether he or she was the rightful heir would be rendered moot.

.Viserys’ words “The boy is Alicent’s own blood” suggest that he did not give a shit for his son.

.Man, I sort of feel sorry for Laenor Velaryon, especially in light of what followed.

.I think that Viserys’ threat to Rhaenyra was just his final attempt to force her to agree to the match.

.If Eustace is so pro-Aegon, why cast doubts on Criston’s honor, especially when Criston was a very strong supporter of the greens?

.Mushroom’s version suits what we already know (Rhaenyra’s infatuation with Criston, her insistence that he be named her sworn shield, etc.)

.Harwin Strong had set eyes on Rhaenyra much earlier and he seized his chance, it seems.

.If Mushroom followed Rhaenyra, how could he be Viserys’ “faithful fool” during the king’s last years?

.Rhaenyra giving her garter to Harwin- very bad move, in fact she acknowledged him as her lover.

.Criston’s rage can be explained this way: he was Rhaenyra’s sworn shield for years, but he also respected Andal customs and traditions and was a follower of the Seven, meaning that he viewed femininity in a way his Andal culture approved of. Seeing Rhaenyra, the princess he had guarded for years, act like a harlot enraged him so much that he viewed as a near personal betrayal.

.If the blacks had won the “war” of appearances three years earlier, in that tourney Alicent had granted her favor to a Kingsguard knight, while Rhaenyra had all but publicly shouted the fact that she was having an extramarital affair while Laenor did nothing to stop the rumors about the subject Mellos had mentioned.

.And now, Rhaenyra spending her time at Dragonstone and Laenor at Driftmark- another mishandling for the blacks.

.Man, I pity poor Laenor. Qarl Correy was not the  most kind-hearted of people, it seems.

.Don’t know if Rhaenyra ever participated in a threesome with Laenor and Qarl Correy, but one can say that the text is very juicy here.

.However, the very fact that the tales circulated tells us that there was at least some ground for those observations.

.Well, cousin marriages were practiced in Old Valyria and King Aenys had married his cousin Alyssa, but never before a Valyrian cousin marriage did not yield sons so unlike both of their parents.

.The fact that the births happened almost simultaneously was also not good for the blacks.

.Viserys hoping to raise his third son with Rhaenyra’s firstborn as milk brothers- if he thought that the boys were the problem and not his daughter’s wanton ways, he was thrice the fool.

.Man, Rhea Royce has many things in common with Ceryse Hightower: daughter of the second most powerful House of a specific area of Westeros, being wed to a younger royal brother who is not his father’s or brother’s successor, scorned by her husband and shamed by his extramarital activities while never getting rid of him and finally dying in a painful way.

.Jeyne Arryn ousting Daemon from the Vale- the whole thing about the Vale in the Dance does not make sense. The Royces despised Daemon, who later became Rhaenyra’s consort. In fact, save for Adrian Redfort and a reference that Jeyne Arryn sent men by ships to Rhaenyra after the princess took King’s Landing we do not hear of Valemen participating in any battles, yet we know that Jacaerys “Velaryon” struck a deal with the Maiden of the Vale, which required the presence of Prince Joffrey and Princess Rhaena in the Eyrie. Puzzling.

.So, Daemon married the woman whom Viserys had almost married years ago.

.Why did Corlys not expel the Braavosi? If, after his father’s death, he had no connection to the rulers of the city, there would be no diplomatic incident, so probably he was postponing the wedding in order to find a better match, but he was sure to keep the Braavosi at hand if that search failed.

.And, now Daemon in all but name murders the man. Why do those Velaryons have such a hatred against the men from the Free Cities?

.Well, Daemon knew that if he played the part of the exile and then return in mock generosity, Viserys would embrace him back.

.Daemon’s close ties with Pentos have a connection to Maegor being exiled there and Illyrio Mopatis’ plans to place a fake Targaryen on the Throne.

.Lucerys’ birth and the fact that Harwin was there when the babe was born sort of seals the deal. Did anyone of you notice the similarity to Jaime being there for the birth of Cersei’s children?

.Viserys’ failure to see what was happening under his nose is not a good thing.

.Laenor was visiting “frequently”, but Harwin was there every day.

.We know that Daemon never had any fraternal affection towards Viserys after the Mysaria incident and that the reason for that deed of his was the chance to betroth his daughters to Rhaenyra’s sons. Gyldayn subtly conveys the message, even though he has to do a bit of embellishment, because the ruling family is descended from the rogue prince.

.Every single deed of Rhaenyra’s added more fuel to the fire.

.The dragonseeds testify that having one Targaryen parent may be sufficient to be a dragonfire, thus Viserys’ move proved nothing.

.I wonder why is Eustace said to be pro-Aegon II, if he every now and then made a reference to the fact that Viserys’ open wish was for Rhaenyra to succeed him.

.Mushroom has, once more, hit the point- a vain person like Rhaenyra would resent the fact that Alicent was maintaining her figure.

.Well, keeping in mind both the First Men and Andal law and the principle of agnatic primogeniture the Targaryens were using, it is natural that Viserys’ sons would resent their obviously bastard nephews.

.Laena’s stillbirth- another Maegor parallel for Daemon.

.Laenor’s death at the hands of Qarl Correy and Correy’s subsequent disappearance- it has a Daemon ring.

.The reward would be enough for itself, but if people feared what Daemon would do to them, then they had no reason to keep their lips sealed.

.Man, Helaena Targaryen makes me weep, the way the previous rider of Dreamfyre, Rhaena, does.

.”if the lad is bold enough”- why did Viserys hate his sons so much?

.And, that’s how Aemond became a dragonrider.

.Here we have the “Velaryon” boys acting as bullies.

.Well, considering that Lucerys was an eye-gouging freak, I will not shed a tear over the fact that Aemond got his revenge at the bully.

.Viserys not being slightly aghast and horrified at the maiming of his son- Tywin was a better father to Tyrion than Viserys to his sons.

.And now, the old man decrees than, for stating the more-than-obvious truth, tongues will be torn. Tyrion had said it perfectly that when you tear a man’s tongue, you don’t prove him a liar, you just show that you fear what he says.

.Yeah, once more Mushroom has stated the inconvenient truth.

.Another murder mystery for us!

.Mellos’ theory suits the erratic pattern of Viserys’ behavior.

.Viserys not giving Otto, Alicent and his sons an ounce of respect, but expecting them to satisfy his whims reminds me of Aerys’ behavior to Tywin.

.Daemon achieved his old goal.

.If Viserys was outraged, why did he do anything?

.Maybe both Eustace and Mushroom are right here.

.Having Aegon the Younger look every inch a Targaryen plainly told us once more that the seed was Strong, with a capital “s” in the case of the “Velaryon” princelings.

.Man, little Viserys’ birth and Aegon’s wedding at the same year.

.While I despise incest, one has to acknowledge that, by wedding Helaena, Aegon seemed every inch a true descendant of the dragonlords of the Freehold.

.Another proof of Targaryen incest causing problems.

.Well, at least Aegon did not try to place his bastards on the Throne.

.If Daeron had been the firstborn of the three brothers, things would be better.

.So, even within House Velaryon, a fraction not friendly to Rhaenyra existed. This explains why the Sea Snake’s warships turned against her after she threw Corlys in the black cells and why Corlys changed sides later.

.Man, if this is Rhaenyra and Daemon’s sense of justice, I would like no part of it.

.Poor Vaemond’s relatives had no hope.

.And, the Throne itself punishes Viserys.

.So, he still tries to reconcile the two factions, ignoring the fact that Rhaenyra has committed high treason and Daemon has violated the laws of the realm repeatedly.

.Hah, the old man feared that the Throne might kill him, as it killed Maegor.

.Mellos was replaced by Orwyle, not Gerardys. The whole thing is a mystery, since we knew that Gerardys was killed in Dragonstone by Sunfyre, yet he does not appear in “The Princess and the Queen”, where a Hunnimore is referenced as Dragonstone’s maester. Thus, it is possible that, when Rhaenyra seized King’s Landing, Gerardys followed her and assumed the role of Grand Maester, since Orwyle had been imprisoned. When she lost the city to the smallfolk, Gerardys followed her to Dragonstone, where his fatal encounter with Sunfyre happened.

.When did he actually bother governing? Never, save to announce the most foolish and tyrannical decisions made during his reign.

.And, this is the end of Viserys I’s reign.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Not only did Daemon not care very much for the Vale but he made some erroneous claims about their men and women. Never cared for him after that.

 

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

13 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Not only did Daemon not care very much for the Vale but he made some erroneous claims about their men and women. Never cared for him after that.

 

Quite right. What do you think on the rest of my points?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

19 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

What do you think on the rest of my points?

Pretty much agree. Daemon was a tyrant that was going to become King or die trying. I doubt he had any genuine feelings for Rhaenyra and only married her for her claim. 

He publicly cheated on his Queen wife for some random younger girl, who, from what I can gather, would have not even be considered second tier while ranked against the Ladies of the Vale. 

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

36 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Pretty much agree. Daemon was a tyrant that was going to become King or die trying. I doubt he had any genuine feelings for Rhaenyra and only married her for her claim. 

He publicly cheated on his Queen wife for some random younger girl, who, from what I can gather, would have not even be considered second tier while ranked against the Ladies of the Vale. 

Good to see I am not alone in the anti-Daemon and anti-Rhaenyra camp.

[Adam Yozza]

2 hours ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.”if the lad is bold enough”- why did Viserys hate his sons so much?

.And, that’s how Aemond became a dragonrider.

.Here we have the “Velaryon” boys acting as bullies.

.Well, considering that Lucerys was an eye-gouging freak, I will not shed a tear over the fact that Aemond got his revenge at the bully

So yeah I'll be honest and say I kinda got bored halfway through. Not because I neccesarily disagree with everything you've said (I don't agree with you on a lot of what you said) but more because it got somewhat long winded.

The above few lines though....completely wrong. You are aware that Aemond was the one who started that fight correct? That he tried to claim Vhagar (okay fine, even if he was disobeying his parents to do so) but then subsequently slapped and shoved a three year old to the ground (keep in mind that he's ten at this point) in order to 'keep him quiet'. Jace and Luke turned up and the four fought with wooden swords for a while until Aemond called them Strong's and started to beat up five year old Jacaerys 'savagely'. Then, and only then, did Lucerys draw his knife. So what we have here is Aemond being a bully, not the Velaryon boys, and Lucerys only drawing a knife in defence of his brother who was on the verge of being beaten to death by the uncle that was twice his age.

So no, Aemond got what he deserved and truly deserved his death at the Gods Eye. Also, this supposed badass was halfway blinded by his four year old nephew. Honestly, if he hadn't had Vhagar the war would have ended a lot sooner. As in: Rook's Rest level sooner.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

45 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

So yeah I'll be honest and say I kinda got bored halfway through. Not because I neccesarily disagree with everything you've said (I don't agree with you on a lot of what you said) but more because it got somewhat long winded.

The above few lines though....completely wrong. You are aware that Aemond was the one who started that fight correct? That he tried to claim Vhagar (okay fine, even if he was disobeying his parents to do so) but then subsequently slapped and shoved a three year old to the ground (keep in mind that he's ten at this point) in order to 'keep him quiet'. Jace and Luke turned up and the four fought with wooden swords for a while until Aemond called them Strong's and started to beat up five year old Jacaerys 'savagely'. Then, and only then, did Lucerys draw his knife. So what we have here is Aemond being a bully, not the Velaryon boys, and Lucerys only drawing a knife in defence of his brother who was on the verge of being beaten to death by the uncle that was twice his age.

So no, Aemond got what he deserved and truly deserved his death at the Gods Eye. Also, this supposed badass was halfway blinded by his four year old nephew. Honestly, if he hadn't had Vhagar the war would have ended a lot sooner. As in: Rook's Rest level sooner.

For good or for bad, the dragon accepted him. 

And, no, if three armed boys attack a slightly older one and take him by surprise, they are the bullies.Don't forget, his only weapon was his hands and, boy, he did a damn good job.

You are right though that he did terrible things during the war, but killing Lucerys was not one of them.

[Adam Yozza]

3 hours ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

For good or for bad, the dragon accepted him. 

And, no, if three armed boys attack a slightly older one and take him by surprise, they are the bullies.Don't forget, his only weapon was his hands and, boy, he did a damn good job.

You are right though that he did terrible things during the war, but killing Lucerys was not one of them.

You seemed to have ignored the fact that Aemond started the fight. Ten year old Aemond sneaks off to Driftmark to tame Vhagar. Three year old Joffrey comes across him. To stop Joffrey from ratting him out, he slapped and pushed aforementioned three year old. He yells and his brothers come running. That is when the fight begins. So no. Aemond did the bullying. Jace and Luke stuck up for their brother. Also Aemond didn't only have his hands. "The four boys fought with wooden training swords" Aemond had a sword too.

[Bael's Bastard]

I think it's interesting that both Jaehaerys and Viserys became king over women who would've come before them if the eldest and eldest of the eldest came first regardless of gender.

But Baelon was the chosen heir of Jaehaerys, and Viserys was his eldest son, so it is no surprise that Laenor was the only real challenge to Viserys, and is rumored to have gotten crushed by Viserys.

That Alysanne supposedly quarreled with Jaehaerys over females not taking priority when he became king over his elder sister, and Aegon became king over his elder sister, is pretty absurd.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I think it's interesting that both Jaehaerys and Viserys became king over women who would've come before them if the eldest and eldest of the eldest came first regardless of gender.

But Baelon was the chosen heir of Jaehaerys, and Viserys was his eldest son, so it is no surprise that Laenor was the only real challenge to Viserys, and is rumored to have gotten crushed by Viserys.

That Alysanne supposedly quarreled with Jaehaerys over females not taking priority when he became king over his elder sister, and Aegon became king over his elder sister, is pretty absurd.

That's why I never bought the "Rhaenyra was the rightful heir because daddy said so defying the same system by virtue of which he became King" argument.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

8 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

You seemed to have ignored the fact that Aemond started the fight. Ten year old Aemond sneaks off to Driftmark to tame Vhagar. Three year old Joffrey comes across him. To stop Joffrey from ratting him out, he slapped and pushed aforementioned three year old. He yells and his brothers come running. That is when the fight begins. So no. Aemond did the bullying. Jace and Luke stuck up for their brother. Also Aemond didn't only have his hands. "The four boys fought with wooden training swords" Aemond had a sword too.

The three boys had armed themselves with swords from the practice yard. Aemond broke Jace's wooden sword, yes, but did not have one in the beginning.

[Adam Yozza]

1 minute ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

The three boys had armed themselves with swords from the practice yard. Aemond broke Jace's wooden sword, yes, but did not have one in the beginning.

That's not what I got from what I read but you're getting that from Princess and Queen then fair enough. Even so, that still doesn't put Jace and Luke in the wrong for defending their brother.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

9 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

That's not what I got from what I read but you're getting that from Princess and Queen then fair enough. Even so, that still doesn't put Jace and Luke in the wrong for defending their brother.

It's not from "The Princess and the Queen", it's from "The Rogue Prince". Here, that's what GRRM writes:

"The Velaryon princelings were younger—Jace was six, Luke five, Joff three—but there were three of them, and they had armed themselves with wooden swords from the training yard. Now they fell on him with a fury. "

The three boys did not just defend their brother, they took Aemond by surprise and hoped to beat and humiliate him, but they underestimated his strength.

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

It's not from "The Princess and the Queen", it's from "The Rogue Prince". Here, that's what GRRM writes:

"The Velaryon princelings were younger—Jace was six, Luke five, Joff three—but there were three of them, and they had armed themselves with wooden swords from the training yard. Now they fell on him with a fury. "

The three boys did not just defend their brother, they took Aemond by surprise and hoped to beat and humiliate him, but they underestimated his strength.

Okay I don't own the Rogue Prince so thanks for the quote. Once again though, you're ignoring the fact that Aemond started the fight.

[Jaak]

22 hours ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.Well, it appears that the Dance was about two conflicting views concerning the law and its interpretation and on the very nature of the monarchy.

 

.When we read about Viserys’ ascension, let us not forget that both the Old and the Young King climbed those twisted steps by the principle of agnatic primogeniture.

.Here, we get to see why the Dance was based on differing views on the monarchy- the Andal and First Men law (and do not tell me that, prior to the Conquest, there were no written laws, for I will remind you that the Conqueror sought to judge his subjects the way their former kings judged them, while the Conciliator created a legal code for all of Westeros) states that a son comes before a daughter, but a daughter comes before an uncle, while Jaehaerys’ precedent, which both he and Viserys followed when they ascended the Iron Throne, stated that an uncle comes before a daughter. However, on no account, does a daughter come before a son.

.Viserys doing his movement- it seems that, at the moment, he did it to spite Daemon, but in doing so, he called in question legal traditions of at least 8,000 years.
 

.You see, whomever Viserys had married, when he sired a son, his wife’s family would expect him to be named as heir. No reason to despise Otto and Alicent for expecting what was normal in Westeros (save for Dorne) for thousands of years.

 

.Real-life medieval monarchs could not violate so soundly all the legal precedents. If cognatic primogeniture prevailed, how many of the lords of Westeros would find themselves unable to keep their elder sisters at bay and how many of their firstborn sons would have their inheritance bitterly contested? Lest we forget, both Jaehaerys and Viserys ascended at the Throne by the principle of agnatic primogeniture, which the Conqueror and Aenys had also favored. What Viserys is doing here undermines the very essence of the political philosophy the most gifted Targaryen monarch and he himself became King.

.If Viserys wanted his daughter’s rule to be uncontested, he ought to officially disinherit his sons and ship them off to the Citadel, Faith or Night’s Watch.

.Well, keeping in mind both the First Men and Andal law and the principle of agnatic primogeniture the Targaryens were using, it is natural that Viserys’ sons would resent their obviously bastard nephews.

.And now, the old man decrees than, for stating the more-than-obvious truth, tongues will be torn. Tyrion had said it perfectly that when you tear a man’s tongue, you don’t prove him a liar, you just show that you fear what he says.

.Man, if this is Rhaenyra and Daemon’s sense of justice, I would like no part of it.

.Poor Vaemond’s relatives had no hope.

.And, the Throne itself punishes Viserys.

.So, he still tries to reconcile the two factions, ignoring the fact that Rhaenyra has committed high treason and Daemon has violated the laws of the realm repeatedly.

The legal precedents are highly ambiguous, to say the least.

One possible interpretation is:

Quote

When it is an ordinary lordship, daughter comes after younger brother, but before uncle. However, when it is Iron Throne, daughters are out no matter what, so uncle if there are no sons.

Another possible interpretation, however, is:

Quote

When it is an ordinary lordship, daughter comes after younger brother, but before uncle. However, when it is Iron Throne, the King can deviate from it either way. If King Jaehaerys wants Baelon or Viserys before Rhaenys, it´s so because Jaehaerys said so. If King Viserys wants Rhaenyra before Aegon, it is so because Viserys said so.

All precedents are consistent with both interpretations. No wonder Viserys liked the second one better.

Disinheriting, against precedent of millennia, a younger half-brother in favour of his elder sister is precisely what Nymeria had done. And she pulled it off. We do not hear of the Dayne little brother waging a civil war. And the precedent stuck. If Nymeria could, why should Viserys not try?

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

The legal precedents are highly ambiguous, to say the least.

One possible interpretation is:

Another possible interpretation, however, is:

All precedents are consistent with both interpretations. No wonder Viserys liked the second one better.

Disinheriting, against precedent of millennia, a younger half-brother in favour of his elder sister is precisely what Nymeria had done. And she pulled it off. We do not hear of the Dayne little brother waging a civil war. And the precedent stuck. If Nymeria could, why should Viserys not try?

Well, we now what sort of succession both First Men and Andals practiced, so there is no ambiguity.

As for Nymeria: 

a) Dorne is not part of Westeros at this time

b)Vorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening, warred against Nymeria, probably because of her edict concerning the succession.

[Jaak]

2 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

b)Vorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening, warred against Nymeria, probably because of her edict concerning the succession.

Um, obviously not.

Vorian Dayne warred against Nymeria because Vorian was a King of a kingdom unbent, unbowed, unbroken by any outside authority since Dawn Age, and Nymeria was a foreign invader with no claim to his fealty except that she could fight him.

And unlike Torrhen Stark, Loren Lannister and Ronnel Arryn, who got to go/stay home with their families short of their crowns, Nymeria gave no such mercy. Vorian was slapped in golden chains, sent to freeze at far end of Westeros, and while Vorian got to keep his willy on his body, he was for the rest of his natural life forbidden to use it.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Um, obviously not.

Vorian Dayne warred against Nymeria because Vorian was a King of a kingdom unbent, unbowed, unbroken by any outside authority since Dawn Age, and Nymeria was a foreign invader with no claim to his fealty except that she could fight him.

And unlike Torrhen Stark, Loren Lannister and Ronnel Arryn, who got to go/stay home with their families short of their crowns, Nymeria gave no such mercy. Vorian was slapped in golden chains, sent to freeze at far end of Westeros, and while Vorian got to keep his willy on his body, he was for the rest of his natural life forbidden to use it.

We know that the Daynes and the Fowlers initially joined Nymeria in the war against Yorick Yronwood, the conflict which killed Mors Martell. Nymeria then took Davos Dayne to husband, but when she had a son with him, she decreed that her daughter with Mors would succeed her, thus probably prompting the Daynes and Fowlers to rebel under Vorian and Garrison.

[Lord Varys]

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.Well, it appears that the Dance was about two conflicting views concerning the law and its interpretation and on the very nature of the monarchy.

 

That is the pretext behind the power grab, yes. And some people actually deeply believed in the 'a son should come first' thing but the driving force of the leading Greens - the Hightowers, basically, and Ser Criston Cole - were quite different. They were about power and ambition and personal dislike. And one assumes that Larys Strong belongs in the same category (after all, Rhaenyra was banging his brother, and not him).

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.Keep in mind that Jaehaerys was the one who first employed Ser Otto as Hand and not Viserys or Aegon II.

 

I actually asked George once (on his NAB, before TRP was out) why Otto Hightower was counted among the worst Hands. After all, he was named Hand by the Old King and - as I believed at the time - had served Viserys I throughout his entire reign. But TRP shows why he was bad. He betrayed his king and caused a war. And he never had the foresight to see that making Rhaenyra the Heir Apparent might be not so good an idea. He was so obsessed with preventing a King Daemon - which was a ridiculous prospect at that point anyway, considering that Viserys was a young and healthy man - that he failed rather spectacularly.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.Robar Baratheon, Septon Barth, Ryam Redwyne, Baelon the Brave, Otto Hightower- the five Hands of King Jaehaerys. Three of them are widely acknowledged as successes (Robar, Barth, Baelon) Ryam was known as a failure and Otto was very methodical and overall competent.

He was methodical and apparently very learned, not not necessarily a good politician. And we don't actually know how good a Hand Lord Robar was, actually.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.Many Hands brought their families to court, like Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark, so I fail to see why anyone should hold this against Ser Otto.

 

It is not that. It is Hightower ambition there. Alicent becoming the maid of the king put her close to the source of power. That's why there are those rumors - assuming they are rumors - that she became his lover. Other people wanted their daughters to be where Alicent was. And it only gets worse when this knight and second son ends up marrying his daughter to the Targaryen king.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.The Great Council of 101, expressing the collective will of the nobility, was perhaps the best political move ever performed in Westeros.

 

It was a nice move to help avoid a succession war, but in the long run it made things worse. The entire dismissal of the female line - not just women but also the sons of women - immediately came back to bite Viserys I in the ass. Without a son the throne should then go to Daemon or the sons of Daemon. Not only daughters of Viserys but also grandsons of Viserys by Rhaenyra - or other daughters he might have had - would be excluded from the succession.

That would limit the powers of the king to a very high degree, and make the crown something some distant lowborn cousin could claim - like it happens in Downton Abbey - if a succession of kings were only children.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.When we read about Viserys’ ascension, let us not forget that both the Old and the Young King climbed those twisted steps by the principle of agnatic primogeniture.

 

Jaehaerys I claimed the throne during a war. He had a battle proclamation at a point while both Aerea and Rhaena were in Maegor's power. They might not even survive the war, or they could have remained on Maegor's side. The succession was not properly discussed then, nor did anyone seriously consider the claims of the girls. Prince Aegon is counted as a pretender, not a king. In that sense, the girls are just the granddaughters of a king, not the daughters of a king.

You can compare that to the Stark succession that is going to come in the later books. Nobody is going to go by the book there. Whoever lives and wins the support of the Northmen is going to end up in possession of Winterfell. And that's not likely going to be Bran.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.Earning his knight’s spurs at six-and-ten, wielding Dark Sister, despising his lady wife… not surprising that Ser Otto found he would be a second Maegor, given how similar they look in a single paragraph.

 

Considering Maegor reconciled with Ceryse later in life it doesn't seem likely he despised her. Otto and Daemon had personal issues.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.Daemon’s dislike for House Royce and the antipathy the Royces had for him may explain why Runestone did not appear to send any men to fight for Rhaenyra during the Dance.

Lady Jeyne sent 10,000 men to fight for Rhaenyra, according to Ran. We don't read about that in TPatQ or TWoIaF but it seems to be what happened. There may have been Royces among those men - or not. Rhea was long dead by then.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.If Daemon was Master of Coin from 103 to 104 AC, what became of Lyman Beesbury at that time, since we are later told that Lyman had served the Old King as Master of Coin.

That is an interesting question and a thing I mention in the inconsistency thread.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.I wonder how much Daemon’s “discipline” was just a brutal corruption masked as lawful suppression of criminals.

Considering medieval societies that is how it is done. However, it actually seems that Daemon reduced a lot of the actual crime and allowed only his favorites to continue their business.

That is still corruption, of course, but keep in mind we are talking about the time shortly after the reign of the Old King here. Things must have been pretty good at that point, if Jaehaerys and Barth were that great, and Daemon even improved on that.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.Viserys’ behavior when it comes to Daemon resembles Aenys’ when it comes to Maegor- the difference is that, while Aenys had a strong bloodline, Viserys had only Rhaenyra.

Apparently Daemon and Viserys were pretty close as children. Unfortunately we don't know much about that.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.It seems Daemon had set eyes on Rhaenyra from a very early moment, much like Maegor, whose mother wanted him to marry Rhaena and strengthen his claim to the Throne.

He wanted to marry her from the moment she became the Heir Apparent, yes.

On 8.11.2017 at 8:33 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

.Nah, don’t think Daemon deflowered Alicent. Even if one subscribes to the school of thought that considers Otto an uber-ambitious scoundrel, he had no advantage in shoving his daughter to the bed of a royal brother already married and rejected as successor.

But then - Daemon was the heir presumptive before Rhaenyra was named Heir Apparent. And the affair would have taken place back then. In addition, Otto as Hand was likely a driving force behind the Great Council supporting Viserys instead of Laenor, and he may have worked with Daemon in that - who very strongly supported his brother's claim.

Chances are pretty good that Otto first tried to hook up Alicent with Daemon - the heir who was stuck in marriage he could help dissolve for good - before they targeted Viserys himself - who still had a queen at that point.

Can't go on right now, sorry ;-).

[The Bard of Banefort]

The Vale supported Rhaenyra because her mother was an Arryn.

I personally do believe that Alicent slept with Daemon, not because her father pushed her into it, but rather because devious, arrogant Daemon probably already didn't like Otto and thought it would be amusing to deflower his beloved daughter. Daemon probably turned on the charm long enough to seduce young Alicent, then lost interest afterwards. Since there was no pregnancy, the whole affair could be brushed off as a rumor by the Hightowers.

Granted, I do have a theory that Daemon had a bit of a Valyrian fetish (which, as I've seen people point out with Cersei, was likely a reflection of his own narcissism). In the short-term, it didn't seem to matter much to him, but if you look at Daemon's four long-lasting relationships (three wives and a mistress), all of them at least started out well, with the exception of Rhea Royce, the only woman who, as far as we know, did not have a traditional Valyrian appearance.

Egg's daughter, Rhaelle, became a cupbearer for the Baratheons after she was betrothed to their son. 

Rhaneyra and Daemon both seem like wretched people, but the way the narrative's written definitely makes me feel like we're supposed to sympathize with the blacks, not the greens.

The Council was a great decision for the way it incorporated some degree of democracy into Westerosi politics, but it also set gender equality back even farther than it already was. Rhaenyra might not have had what it took to be a good queen, but Rhaenys did.