What would have happened if R+L=J was %100 true and Lyanna survived ToJ?

[Dimmu Borgir]

On 11/9/2017 at 0:16 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

King Robert would claim her, Jon would still be claimed as Neds 

It seems to me Lyanna didn't enjoy the thought of marrying Robert in the first place, let alone after him having killed her beloved (if they were indeed in love) Rhaegar. If she was truly kidnapped, things might have ended up differently.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I can see Ned faking Lyanna's death so she can be at peace and simply tells everyone that Jon's his bastard

Would Lyanna give away her son, to be mistreated by Cat? And that after already losing Rhaegar. Why would she suffer thru one more separation, if this one could be avoided?

41 minutes ago, nihilsciens said:

(if they were indeed in love) Rhaegar. If she was truly kidnapped, things might have ended up differently.

She gave birth to his baby. If she didn't loved him, she could have aborted her pregnancy (by harming herself, or not eating, or 'accidentally' falling), or commited suicide (by jumpng out of the towers window, or by breaking her neck or damaging her head by running into a wall, or by strangling herself with bedsheets, or by biting her tongue and bleeding to death unnoticed by others). Even if she was kidnapped, imprisoned and watched 24/7, there was still a way not to give birth to Rhaegar's child, if she didn't wanted it.

Also based on Ned's memories about Rhaegar, he wasn't resenting him, which proves that there was no kidnapping, and no rape. 3 Kingsguards were protecting Lyanna and Rhaegar's baby, and not holding them imprisoned.

[purple-eyes]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

1. In the book the same thing will happen. Happened.

I'm basing this conclusion on Aerys' announcement after Rhaegar's death, that his heir will be Viserys, and not Aegon. I think that this proves that Rhaegar informed his father, about change of legal status of his children. He annulled his marriage with Elia, and their children became bastards, thus next in succession line was Viserys (until Lyanna's baby will be born).

I'm not basing this on information from show. Even without revelation from last episode of GOT, I would've still made a conclusion that Rhaegar annulled his marriage with Elia and married with Lyanna. There were many clues in the books, when various people were remembering Rhaegar, and what kind of person he was. So I'm absolutely certain that person like him wouldn't have kidnapped Lyanna, or bedded her without marriage. And Dany's vision about Rhaegar and Elia with newborn Aegon, and mentioning about three headed dragon, and details about Elia's health, all this combined together means that Elia wasn't against Rhaegar leaving her, and finding another woman to fulfill his prophecy about three Targaryens. Add to this that Ashara Dayne was Elia's lady-in-waiting, and her brother was guarding Lyanna at Tower of Joy, instead of killing her or going away, which probably means that Ashara and Elia both knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and they weren't against it.

About marriage - it's obvious from the books that Rhaegar and Elia weren't together anymore. Thus either they divorced, or annulled their marriage. And person like Rhaegar definitely married with his new love. And who can divorce/marry a Crown Prince? -> High Septon. Someone of lesser standing doesn't have enough authority.

Information from show has nothing to do with my theory. I made same conclusions based on information from books alone.

2. Not a fan of Song books, too many points of view, don't like this jumping from one person to another. I like Dunk&Egg more than main story. 

Well someone of Jon Arryn did died before he married with Lysa, which was one of the reason why he married.

But when Robert recuperated he went to King's Landing, and after Aerys' death, he also didn't went to search Lyanna. Both he and Ned were at Red Keep, but only Ned went to Dorne. Ned's father and brother were killed, his sister was missing, this became reasons for rebellion. But as result of it, Robert became King of 7K. What did he lost? All loses were Ned's. The only thing Robert lost, was Lyanna, but when he defeated all his enemies, and could have went to get her back, he didn't. Why? If Lyanna's kidnapping was a real reason for his rebellion, then why didn't he even tried to find her?

3. Tywin planned rebellion, Robert was only one of his pawns. Tywin was looking for many years how to depose Aerys. And finally he used situation between Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert, to get rid of Targaryens, and sieze Iron Throne for himself.

I also think that Tywin killed Robert's parents (hired Faceless Man (Patchface) to prevent Steffon Baratheon from finding Valyrian wife for Rhaegar). Lyanna was Knight of the Laughing Tree. Ashara Dayne is alive, she's wife of Howland Reed, Jyana Reed. Edric Dayne is her and Howlands son, twin brother of Jojen. The Dawn sword is hiden in crypts at Winterfell. It's a Lightbringer from the prophecy about Prince that was promised. Iron Bank and Faceless Men are from the same organisation.

My theories are far fetched, but they have at least some basis from the books, unlike theory that Bran is Night's King/leader of White Walkers, or that he can change the past.

Glad that you said “my theories are farfteched”. 

Yes, they are. 

By the way, GRRM himself said “Dawn remains at Starfall, until another sword of morning shall rise”. 

So no, not in crypt of winterfell. 

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

1. In the book the same thing will happen. Happened.

I'm basing this conclusion on Aerys' announcement after Rhaegar's death, that his heir will be Viserys, and not Aegon. I think that this proves that Rhaegar informed his father, about change of legal status of his children. He annulled his marriage with Elia, and their children became bastards, thus next in succession line was Viserys (until Lyanna's baby will be born).

I'm not basing this on information from show. Even without revelation from last episode of GOT, I would've still made a conclusion that Rhaegar annulled his marriage with Elia and married with Lyanna. There were many clues in the books, when various people were remembering Rhaegar, and what kind of person he was. So I'm absolutely certain that person like him wouldn't have kidnapped Lyanna, or bedded her without marriage. And Dany's vision about Rhaegar and Elia with newborn Aegon, and mentioning about three headed dragon, and details about Elia's health, all this combined together means that Elia wasn't against Rhaegar leaving her, and finding another woman to fulfill his prophecy about three Targaryens. Add to this that Ashara Dayne was Elia's lady-in-waiting, and her brother was guarding Lyanna at Tower of Joy, instead of killing her or going away, which probably means that Ashara and Elia both knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and they weren't against it.

About marriage - it's obvious from the books that Rhaegar and Elia weren't together anymore. Thus either they divorced, or annulled their marriage. And person like Rhaegar definitely married with his new love. And who can divorce/marry a Crown Prince? -> High Septon. Someone of lesser standing doesn't have enough authority.

Information from show has nothing to do with my theory. I made same conclusions based on information from books alone.

2. Not a fan of Song books, too many points of view, don't like this jumping from one person to another. I like Dunk&Egg more than main story. 

Well someone of Jon Arryn did died before he married with Lysa, which was one of the reason why he married.

But when Robert recuperated he went to King's Landing, and after Aerys' death, he also didn't went to search Lyanna. Both he and Ned were at Red Keep, but only Ned went to Dorne. Ned's father and brother were killed, his sister was missing, this became reasons for rebellion. But as result of it, Robert became King of 7K. What did he lost? All loses were Ned's. The only thing Robert lost, was Lyanna, but when he defeated all his enemies, and could have went to get her back, he didn't. Why? If Lyanna's kidnapping was a real reason for his rebellion, then why didn't he even tried to find her?

3. Tywin planned rebellion, Robert was only one of his pawns. Tywin was looking for many years how to depose Aerys. And finally he used situation between Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert, to get rid of Targaryens, and sieze Iron Throne for himself.

I also think that Tywin killed Robert's parents (hired Faceless Man (Patchface) to prevent Steffon Baratheon from finding Valyrian wife for Rhaegar). Lyanna was Knight of the Laughing Tree. Ashara Dayne is alive, she's wife of Howland Reed, Jyana Reed. Edric Dayne is her and Howlands son, twin brother of Jojen. The Dawn sword is hiden in crypts at Winterfell. It's a Lightbringer from the prophecy about Prince that was promised. Iron Bank and Faceless Men are from the same organisation.

My theories are far fetched, but they have at least some basis from the books, unlike theory that Bran is Night's King/leader of White Walkers, or that he can change the past.

If you're not a fan of the books, then this section clearly isn't for you. It's labeled as the book forum (ASOIAF) for a reaon, tbh, and a lot of what you say is wrong because it never happened in the books and are show specific. Also saying, you really don't know how the books will end, whether they will follow the show or not. It would clear up a lot of the confusion that seems to surround a lot of the claims you make, if you talked about them in the general forum part  that is dedicated to the show specifically.

[Pikachu101]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Would Lyanna give away her son, to be mistreated by Cat? And that after already losing Rhaegar. Why would she suffer thru one more separation, if this one could be avoided?

I’m not even going to touch the Cat/Jon thing because that just opens up unnecessary drama. 

As for Lyanna separating from a son why wouldn’t she if it meant he’d be safe? 

Also even if she went with Rhaegar willingly I doubt she stayed in love with him; the man trapped her in a tower and then went off to fight against her family. Lyanna’s story is a tragic cautionary tale, if she had survived the Tower of Joy I don’t think she’d miss Rhaegar. 

General message: 

Can we stop commenting anything show related please? This is a book thread so if your argument is citing the show please use the general forum for HBO’s Game of Thrones instead.  

[SunfyreTheGolden]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

 

General message: 

Can we stop commenting anything show related please? This is a book thread so if your argument is citing the show please use the general forum for HBO’s Game of Thrones instead.  

1

Exactly. Especially something important like this one. 

[Pikachu101]

3 hours ago, SunfyreTheGolden said:

Exactly. Especially something important like this one. 

I hate the show so much, if you type Aegon VI you get Jon Snow 

[Faera]

5 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Can we stop commenting anything show related please? This is a book thread so if your argument is citing the show please use the general forum for HBO’s Game of Thrones instead.  

Yes, yes, yes! 

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Would Lyanna give away her son, to be mistreated by Cat?

6 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

As for Lyanna separating from a son why wouldn’t she if it meant he’d be safe? 

2

Sad though aspects of Jon's upbringing were, you can tell by the way he remembers his childhood - and how his siblings remember him (even Sansa thinks how sweet it would be to see him again in AFfC) - that he had a very good life at Winterfell. It was by no means easy because bastards are a target of prejudice but he had a good education and was well cared for. Cat's resentment over howStark-like he looked and how accomplished was a part of his life at Winterfell - not all-encompassing.

Personally, if Lyanna had survived I see no reason why she wouldn't have kept Jon with her. There are people who could have helped her or places she could have hidden undetected, especially if she had already faked her death and no one but Ned and Howland knew Jon existed.
 

 

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

She gave birth to his baby. If she didn't loved him, she could have aborted her pregnancy (by harming herself, or not eating, or 'accidentally' falling), or commited suicide (by jumpng out of the towers window, or by breaking her neck or damaging her head by running into a wall, or by strangling herself with bedsheets, or by biting her tongue and bleeding to death unnoticed by others). Even if she was kidnapped, imprisoned and watched 24/7, there was still a way not to give birth to Rhaegar's child, if she didn't wanted it.

There are plenty of reasons to have Jon other than out of love for Rhaegar.

She could have had Jon because by the time she realised she was pregnant it was too late for moon tea and she didn't want to kill herself! Maybe she loved her baby because it was hers, nothing to do with Rhaegar. Don't get me wrong, I agree she likely ran off with him willingly but after her father and brother were murdered and a war broke out, she might not have thought it a good idea anymore. At that point, Jon might have been the only good thing she saw coming out of that mess.

She could have done it for power; if she had married Rhaegar, any child she had would have had a legitimate claim to the throne. Jon was born King because his father, grandfather and elder half-brother were all presumably dead by the time he finally popped out and Ned, Howland and the rest of the Magnificent Seven found her. That makes her the mother of the rightful King of the Seven Kingdoms. That is a lot of power.

She could have done it for the prophecy; the motivation for conceiving and producing Jon might have been because they genuinely believed they could make TPTWP/A Song of Ice and Fire/The Saviour etc. Rhaegar was obsessed with TPTWP prophecy and might well have convinced Lyanna of it as well if she wasn't already. For that reason, she might have wished to continue her baby daddy's mission to prepare Jon for the war to come.

I'm not married to any of these ideas but the fact remains that Lyanna need not have been in love with Rhaegar to want his child.

Plus, I would like to add that there are two widely circulated stories about Rhaegar and Lyanna that go around the kingdom.

There is the anti-Targaryen version:

Quote

"Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" Eddard II, AGoT.
"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all." Bran VIII, AGoT.

 

Then, there is the pro-Targaryen version:

Quote

Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. Daenerys I, AGoT.
Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Barristan (The Kingbreaker), ADwD.

 

Based on what we know of Rhaegar's personality, I sincerely doubt he raped her or abducted her. However, given that these are the two versions of the Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship that are repeated throughout the text, GRRM is more likely to go for some sort of secret option #3 as to what motivated the two of them to run off and have a baby.