Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines

[Darth Richard II]

[mankytoes]

31 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

...wow. That is, minus the potential drugging part, exactly the behaviour he's been accused of. He's literally admitted it on the radio. He just doesn't think it's wrong. He also implies very strongly there that he thinks the only thing Spacey and Weinstein did wrong was do it with people over whom they had direct power and influence at work.

I guess we should look at the different dynamics when gay men are involved. Big age gaps, for example, seem a lot more acceptable. I live near the UK's gay capital, and when I first went clubbing at 18, I looked very young, probably about 15, and I got a lot of attention from older guys. I know it's nothing women don't get all the time, but I do think there would be a bit more of a "dude, she's too young for you" thing. After I stopped looking like a "boy" and started looking like a "man", the attention largely stopped (and I only miss it a tiny bit, honest...).

[Darth Richard II]

Uh...

[Theda Baratheon]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

The one where he forces himself on Rachael just after he proves to her that she's a replicant, even though she's initially resistant and then nonresponsive.

To be fair that leapt out at me when I recently rewatched it. The whole movie has Deckard doing uncomfortable things but that's the only one where there's no moment where it asks you to question it.

Yeah I mean I think everyone knows blade Runner is my number 1 but that scene is supremely uncomfortable - I think the sequel casts it in a better light and makes me feel better about that particular scene but it can definitely be read as rape. 

[ummester]

7 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Might as well say this about all of society because none of this is limited to Hollywood.  It happens in every industry.  You'd be stuck having to free range your needs if you go on a boycott of any industry that has a harrasment and abuse problem.

To a degree, for sure - but Hollywood has a certain allure, due to the nature of fame and celebrity, that industry outside of entertainment does not have. I'd wager zookeepers don't have a casting couch.

[Kelli Fury]

Mankytoes- since men and women can’t/shouldn’t learn things separately, can you describe to me what it was like when you learned how give yourself a breast cancer self exam? How to know the symptoms of a vaginal yeast infection?

[Darth Richard II]

Hey to be fair men CAN get breast cancer.

[mankytoes]

37 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Mankytoes- since men and women can’t/shouldn’t learn things separately, can you describe to me what it was like when you learned how give yourself a breast cancer self exam? How to know the symptoms of a vaginal yeast infection?

Men can get breast cancer, in fact it's extremely important that we know this, and don't ignore the symptoms, so that's a spectacularly bad example.

I don't know the symptoms of a vaginal yeast infection, but I don't think it would be a bad idea, I know they are common in women and it would help me support my partner if she got one. I could even help her diagnose if she described the symptoms. Knowledge is never a bad thing.

That wasn't really my point, anyway. I was replying to a point about media. Media is consumed by men and women. If those messages are effecting young men, they're effecting young women. I'm not saying can't or shouldn't, I'm saying they don't learn from media separately.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, ummester said:

To a degree, for sure - but Hollywood has a certain allure, due to the nature of fame and celebrity, that industry outside of entertainment does not have. I'd wager zookeepers don't have a casting couch.

You're wrong.  Pretty much any industry that has men with the ability to promote has this.  See earlier comments in the thread about academia, or look at what HR departments do.  There's a reason that every large company has them. 

Shit look at the service industry.  My brother runs the front house at a BBQ place, and has been in that same position at a bunch of other restaurants and bars in New England.  He says the first thing he does at a new place is institute a zero tolerance harassment policy, otherwise the turnover in entry level servers and staff is constant.  The men that have been there for awhile basically try to use the power of promotions or job security to get sexual favors.  

I believe there was an article posted here about a chain of restaurants in New Orleans that had a total systemic failure with harassment and assault and manipulation.  This isn't just a Hollywood issue.  It's just what we hear about because famous.

[Lily Valley]

Kelli, you are winning the internet right now.

That is all.

[Darth Richard II]

7 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

Kelli, you are winning the internet right now.

That is all.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

Media is consumed by men and women. If those messages are effecting young men, they're effecting young women. I'm not saying can't or shouldn't, I'm saying they don't learn from media separately.

Just because they're learning from the same media- and that's a simplification: although obviousyl the media is available to everyone, and there's overlap, there are clearly some things more likely to be watched by one or the other gender- but even if they are watching the same media it doesn't mean they're being taught, or learning, the same lessons from it.

Look. No-one's saying that bad things can't happen to men, or that media can't have a bad effect on us, or doesn't depict bad things happening to men. But even your two examples, of men being raped. They're played for laughs, but they're big, obvious, not-how-it-should-be-isms. They're played for comedy because it's incongrous. That's a different thing to the thousands of little ways that rape and coersion towards women are normalised in media. No-one's gonna watch Peep Show and thing 'oh yeah, that's how normal people behave'. But people do watch Han Solo and think he's a model of how a man should be.

[mankytoes]

51 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Just because they're learning from the same media- and that's a simplification: although obviousyl the media is available to everyone, and there's overlap, there are clearly some things more likely to be watched by one or the other gender- but even if they are watching the same media it doesn't mean they're being taught, or learning, the same lessons from it.

Look. No-one's saying that bad things can't happen to men, or that media can't have a bad effect on us, or doesn't depict bad things happening to men. But even your two examples, of men being raped. They're played for laughs, but they're big, obvious, not-how-it-should-be-isms. They're played for comedy because it's incongrous. That's a different thing to the thousands of little ways that rape and coersion towards women are normalised in media. No-one's gonna watch Peep Show and thing 'oh yeah, that's how normal people behave'. But people do watch Han Solo and think he's a model of how a man should be.

I'm not saying they are, but don't you think it's important that we look at all sides of this? She may or may not be winning the internet, but I feel like the comments I am replying to are really big on generalisations. It's just as important to consider the messages television is sending our daughters as our sons. To me, that's a feminist attitude, but I know people disagree strongly with me on feminist issues on here.

I just think that men are presented with a message that sexual assault against them isn't that big of a deal. The allegations made against Takei and Spacey are quite old. I wonder if these guys really felt they had been sexually assaulted at the time, or if they felt like that was something that happened to women, and that they should "man up" and shrug it off? I don't know, but I think that's something that does happen. I really don't want this to turn into a "boys v girls" type thing, because that just seems totally unnecessary. Supporting male victims should compliment supporting female victims, not compete, as if there was a total sum of support we have that people should compete for.

It's interesting to think how depictions like that have effected us. I can't say I feel like it did effect me, but who knows what went on subconsciously. In my house growing up, my mum was the strong parent, the disciplinarian, the one who didn't take any shit, and I think that has more impact on a kid. I never thought grabbing a girl like that would work, I thought it would get me a firm rebuke and public humiliation. In any case, isn't it equally worrying about the messages young girls would get from Solo and Leia's interactions, about how they should expect to be treated, about what constitutes romance?

 

 

[Kelli Fury]

3 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Men can get breast cancer, in fact it's extremely important that we know this, and don't ignore the symptoms, so that's a spectacularly bad example.

I don't know the symptoms of a vaginal yeast infection, but I don't think it would be a bad idea, I know they are common in women and it would help me support my partner if she got one. I could even help her diagnose if she described the symptoms. Knowledge is never a bad thing.

That wasn't really my point, anyway. I was replying to a point about media. Media is consumed by men and women. If those messages are effecting young men, they're effecting young women. I'm not saying can't or shouldn't, I'm saying they don't learn from media separately.

 Wow, I’m literally laughing out loud right now, yes, #MENTOO!!!!!!! can get breast cancer, but you’re ignorance is kind of proving my point here. Men are not inundated with the monthly self exam info that women are because get this- your breast tissue is different. You may not know a lot about the texture of the female breast. But many of us have kind of a lumpy  poorly mashed potato texture normally. So finding a lump in your breast is often fine because there are all kinds of safe lumps in there, you’re expected to be investigating and mapping out where your regular lumps are in case there is a new or different lump. Because male breast tissue is not usually lumpy to begin with, you don’t need to spend so much time getting to know your lovely lady lumps.

 

And you are sadly incorrect about men and women consuming the same media the same way. If you want to know more a good place to start is any of the hundreds of articles about “the male gaze” and Wonder Woman. We see the same things, but we take different things because our experiences are different. Additionally, my point is men should be taken aside and taught these things intentionally, not from the media. Be it in sex Ed or as a requirement for college admission or high school graduation- some type of non volunteer education of young men about what is and isn’t consent is badly needed. Most rapists and sexual assaulters truly do not think that is what they did, and that is a problem we can solve.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Additionally, my point is men should be taken aside and taught these things intentionally, not from the media. Be it in sex Ed or as a requirement for college admission or high school graduation- some type of non volunteer education of young men about what is and isn’t consent is badly needed. Most rapists and sexual assaulters truly do not think that is what they did, and that is a problem we can solve.

I think we would be better served having mandatory, comprehensive, mixed-gender sex-ed classes starting in middle school and continuing through high school, rather than singling out young men for special education or tying such education to something like college admissions.

Both men and women, gay, straight or bi-sexual would be well-served learning early on what constitutes consent, what doesn't, and all the different ways that someone could be sexually harassed, assaulted or raped.

[mankytoes]

5 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

 Wow, I’m literally laughing out loud right now, yes, #MENTOO!!!!!!! can get breast cancer, but you’re ignorance is kind of proving my point here. Men are not inundated with the monthly self exam info that women are because get this- your breast tissue is different. You may not know a lot about the texture of the female breast. But many of us have kind of a lumpy  poorly mashed potato texture normally. So finding a lump in your breast is often fine because there are all kinds of safe lumps in there, you’re expected to be investigating and mapping out where your regular lumps are in case there is a new or different lump. Because male breast tissue is not usually lumpy to begin with, you don’t need to spend so much time getting to know your lovely lady lumps.

And you are sadly incorrect about men and women consuming the same media the same way. If you want to know more a good place to start is any of the hundreds of articles about “the male gaze” and Wonder Woman. We see the same things, but we take different things because our experiences are different. Additionally, my point is men should be taken aside and taught these things intentionally, not from the media. Be it in sex Ed or as a requirement for college admission or high school graduation- some type of non volunteer education of young men about what is and isn’t consent is badly needed. Most rapists and sexual assaulters truly do not think that is what they did, and that is a problem we can solve.

Wow, you're mocking a hashtag used by sexual assault victims in the context of people getting cancer. Literally hilarious. Supporting women doesn't have to involve being a dick to men. On the other hand, props for spreading cancer advice. Isn't the simplist message just "if it's a new or growing lump, get it checked"?

Well I definitely didn't say that.

I really don't think you need to separate genders for this. Not just because women can commit sexual assault as well, but because it's just as important for potential victims (again, this obviously includes men) to have boundaries reinforced.

But yeah, I agree that consent should be a big part of all sexual education classes. I think for this sort of thing to be most effective, it should be when people are formulating their ideas about sex and sexuality- as they enter puberty.

Unless it's too personal, why do you think most rapists and sexual assaulters don't think that is what they did? Is that just based on legal pleas or statements of the accused? You look at someone like Weinstein, he'll say he felt it was all just a misunderstanding, but then he's hiring ex-Mossad guys to follow his accuser, it's kind of hard to believe. I think they know that society considers what they do to be wrong, but they don't think the same rules apply.

[Kelli Fury]

#mentoo is a shitty hashtag that is a lot like #alllivesmatter. I don’t take anyone getting assaulted lightly at all. But when men hijack the discussion women are having about their experiences and make it about them- like you bringing up breast cancer in men, like Louis CK’s apology being so much about him and his work, like men distracting from women trying to demonstrate that the MAJORITY of them suffer from this, not that ONLY they do, but trying to use the sheer numbers of your friends and family to show you this, you are taking agency from these people. It happens to men and they can and should speak up, they just shouldn’t hijack #metoo to do that. Women can and should talk about things from their own perspective. By doing so we are not minimizing you because we are discussing something else. Be it about race, sex, gender identity, religion, or sexual preference- the groups that have the most power need to sit down and listen, instead of making it about them. Let other people have their moment to make their statement and stop assuming you know what it is like before doing way more listening than talking.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Kelli Fury said:

#mentoo is a shitty hashtag that is a lot like #alllivesmatter. I don’t take anyone getting assaulted lightly at all. But when men hijack the discussion women are having about their experiences and make it about them- like you bringing up breast cancer in men, like Louis CK’s apology being so much about him and his work, like men distracting from women trying to demonstrate that the MAJORITY of them suffer from this, not that ONLY they do, but trying to use the sheer numbers of your friends and family to show you this, you are taking agency from these people. It happens to men and they can and should speak up, they just shouldn’t hijack #metoo to do that. Women can and should talk about things from their own perspective. By doing so we are not minimizing you because we are discussing something else. Be it about race, sex, gender identity, religion, or sexual preference- the groups that have the most power need to sit down and listen, instead of making it about them. Let other people have their moment to make their statement and stop assuming you know what it is like before doing way more listening than talking.

Eh, think you're kind of missing the point here. #Metoo is about victims sharing their stories. I'm not sure how gender even enters into that. Are you suggesting that men can't be victims of rape or sexual harassment? It's nothing like #all lives matter. #All lives matter degrades #black lives matter. If the hastag was Mentoo, then you'd have a point.

[Kelli Fury]

And the reason I think most rapists and assault perpetrators don’t think that’s what they did is mostly anecdotal but I’m sure it’d be echoed by the other ladies here and many of your acquaintances. I’ve been assaulted tons of times in my life, as most women have. When I have called these out as what they are in the moment, the person often says stuff like “I thought you’d like it” or “it was just a joke” or “I was drunk” or “don’t be such a bitch” or “I meant it as a compliment” and I think these were mostly sincere things they thought made it okay. Things that overrode my right to say what happens to my own body.  I’ve had romantic partners film sexual acts without my consent who could not for the life of them understand why that made me angry because “it’s not like I was going to show anyone”  Ask then women you know if a stranger has slapped her ass and what they did if she told them to fuck off. The answers will not be fun to hear.

[Kelli Fury]

4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Eh, think you're kind of missing the point here. #Metoo is about victims sharing their stories. I'm not sure how gender even enters into that. Are you suggesting that men can't be victims of rape or sexual harassment? It's nothing like #all lives matter. #All lives matter degrades #black lives matter. If the hastag was Mentoo, then you'd have a point.

What I was talking about is mentoo, women started metoo, and it was to raise awareness because most people who aren’t women don’t realize it is most women. There are many easily available articles on this topic. That’s why #mentoo and #notallmen were simultaneously trending. Yes, some men used #metoo and that’s not the original intent but it wasn’t meant to hijack, but the original movement behind it was about women. That is what I was referencing to mankytoes about him men tooing breast cancer, and then he said I was making fun of assault survivors because they’re men.