Jon is not in the line of succession

[Dragonsbone]

1 minute ago, Pikachu101 said:

Even if Elia did believe Rhaegar, all of his actions revolved around helping Aegon fulfil his prophecy something which included a Visenya not a Jon. Even in your scenario Elia wouldn’t agree to an annulment nor would Rhaegar have reason to do so or marry Lyanna. 

What? Which prophecy is that? The prophecy of tptwp does certainly not include a Visenya, nor does it say that he has to have two sisters, nor that the tptwp has to be named Aegon. Rhaegar just choosed that name because he thought "what better name for king". You are completely mixing up stuff.

[Bael's Bastard]

5 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

True perhaps he named his daughter because he simply liked the same but then Aegon came along and only then did he realise that there needs to be a third head. Visenya’s just a name but the idea is the same; Aegon saves Westeros with his sister wives as a the three heads of the dragon. Regardless of his reason I don’t think he was expecting Lyanna to give him a boy. 

Maybe he was aiming for his Orys 

[Pikachu101]

8 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

What? Which prophecy is that? The prophecy of tptwp does certainly not include a Visenya, nor does it say that he has to have two sisters, nor that the tptwp has to be named Aegon. Rhaegar just choosed that name because he thought "what better name for king". You are completely mixing up stuff.

It’s assumptions because we don’t know who Rhaegar thought the third head was. But in context of what we know it makes sense that his reasoning for taking Lyanna was to give him a third head. The general agreement is he was planning on naming her Visenya. But we could be wrong all I know is Rhaegar wouldn’t harm Aegon’s kingship and having a half brother from a powerful noble family would do just that, sisters on the other hand can’t take the throne from their brothers but they can allow for great alliances from the House who will be the first to fight the Others. I can see that being Rhaegar’s reasoning because everything he did revolved around the belief that Aegon was the PTWP. 

[Pikachu101]

8 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Maybe he was aiming for his Orys 

Well Orys a bastard 

[Dragonsbone]

15 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

It’s assumptions because we don’t know who Rhaegar thought the third head was. But in context of what we know it makes sense that his reasoning for taking Lyanna was to give him a third head. The general agreement is he was planning on naming her Visenya. But we could be wrong all I know is Rhaegar wouldn’t harm Aegon’s kingship and having a half brother from a powerful noble family would do just that, sisters on the other hand can’t take the throne from their brothers but they can allow for great alliances from the House who will be the first to fight the Others. I can see that being Rhaegar’s reasoning because everything he did revolved around the belief that Aegon was the PTWP. 

I understand where you are coming from and it may be. But I doubt it. I also have no proof of any claims I am making . I just think that we actually don't know the prophecy at it fullest. We don't know what Rhaegar has read in that one book and we also don't know the Song of Ice and Fire that Rhaegar mentions in the HotU. I think we will all be suprised, once we can actually read it.

FYI: you don't have to like the show, but even George has said just in August that the books and the show will still have the same storyline and conclusion, just the way to it may change. Of course you are free to contradict GRRM. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

30 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That's presumptuous. He named his eldest child Rhaenys, not Visenya. So right off the bat the idea of him trying to mimic Aegon and his sisters falls flat.

I wish I could like your post.

No matter how many people say that Rhaegar was expecting a Visenya to complete the set, I just don't buy it. 

[Pikachu101]

2 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

No matter how many people say that Rhaegar was expecting a Visenya to complete the set, I just don't buy it. 

I saw one theory say Rhaegar saw himself as one of the heads…

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

I saw one theory say Rhaegar saw himself as one of the heads…

That'd be me, unless someone else posted about it. 

[Bael's Bastard]

Whatever GRRM's personal opinion on the show, the show is simply not relevant to this or any other thread in the books forums. There are plenty of places to discuss the show, including elsewhere on this forum, but this isn't one of them. Not sure what people don't get about that, as the rules here about the show are explicit.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

People are literally pulling annulment out of thin air.

I'm saying that annulment is one of possible options, alongside with divorce and double marriage.

ASOIAF is inspired by Europian medieval history, including War of Roses, Henry VIII, etc.

Henry VIII annulled marriage with his first wife Catherin of Aragorn. Second wife Anne Boleyn was executed. Third wife Jane Seymour died after giving birth to Henry's son Edward. So the king already had a male heir, nevertheless he married again. THREE more times. Fourth wife Anne of Cleves - annulment. Fifth wife Catherine Howard was executed. Sixth wife Catherine Parr wasn't executed, and marriage with her wasn't annuled. Probably only because Henry died two and a half years after their wedding, and he was ill for the most part of that time, so he didn't managed to get rid of his latest wife prior his own death.

Jacqueline Hainaut was married four times, two of her marriages were annulled (she lived at the same period as Henry V). Prior annulment of her marriage with John IV Duke of Brabant, her lady-in-waiting was Eleanor nee Cobham. And later this Eleanor married with her ex-husband John. Also she supposedly had a secret wedding with one of her husbands, two years prior their official wedding.

Catherin of Valois (mother of Henry VI) after death of her first husband Henry V, secretly married with Owen Tudor, and even gave birth to six of his children, including Edmund Tudor. Untill her death those children were raised in secret. Edmure's wife and mother of King Henry VII was Margaret Beaufort. Her first marriage was annuled. She was married four times.

After death of Edward IV, Parliament issued statut that annulled his marriage with Elizabeth Woodville, and all their 10 children became bastards. Their wedding was also secret. Edward's mother Cecily Neville didn't liked his wife Elizabeth, and was trying to make her son to annul his marriage, even though they already had children at that time (three daughters and one son).  

Elizabeth Jane Shore nee Lambert, who was mistress of Edward IV, annulled her marriage with her first husband John Lambert, she claimed that he was impotent.

 

I easily found 7 marriage annulments in times during or close to War of Roses.

 

In actual history of medieval Europe, by which GRRM was inspired, marriage annulment amongst important historical figures, wasn't rare. Kings of England and marriage annulments:

Edward IV - Edward V - Richard III - Henry VII - Henry VIII - all five Kings in a row, had marriage annulment precedents in their lives.

After death of Edward IV, Parliament annuled his marriage with Elizabeth Woodville. Edward V and his brothers and sisters temporarily became bastards, until Henry VII repelled Titulus Regius, that was originally issued by Parliament of Richard III. Henry VIII annulled two of his marriages.

Thus I think that there's no way, that GRRM won't use annulment, at some point in his books.

[norwaywolf123]

On 14.11.2017 at 5:43 AM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Jon is not in the line of succession.

1. R + L = J is not a proven theory.  The youtube channels of The Order of the Greenhand and Preston Jacobs eloquently made their case against this flimsy theory of R + L = J.

I agree that it is not set in stone, yet.

On 14.11.2017 at 5:43 AM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

1. Even if R + L = J is proven, Jon is still a bastard.  Polygamy is not legal in Westeros.  The child of these two will be bastards.  An annulment with his wife is not likely because Rhaegar + Elia was consummated and they have their children to prove it.

First the landmass that is called westeros do not have any inherent laws, the laws and social customs are social constructs. The ironborn who follow the drowned god accept some sort of polygamy in that a man can have one rock wife and many salt wifes. We also do not know the position of the first men and followers of the old gods before the andal invasion, "Although the views of the First Men on polygamy are not known." What we know is that the Faith of the Seven, the majority religion of Westeros, and the most organised relgion in westeros fo oppose polygamy. FotS opposition to polygamy was a big part of the instability during Aenys targaryens reign.

On 14.11.2017 at 5:43 AM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

1. King Aerys disinherited Rhaegar's children.  Any child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, even if Rhaegar pulled a divorce and somehow got his second marriage legalized, are no longer in the line of succession because Aerys chose Prince Viserys to be his heir.  Viserys became King Viserys III when his mother, Queen Rhaella, crowned him on Dragonstone.  This removed Aegon and Jon from the line of succession.

Any descendent of a targaryen has a blood claim, still that is not as strong as a blood claim combined with a legal claim.

On 14.11.2017 at 5:43 AM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

1. Jon is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch.  Taking the Black means you give up any and all claims.  Aemon Targaryen took the black to permanently remove himself from the line of succession. 
2. Jon committed treason against the Night's Watch, supported Stannis, sent Mance Rayder loose on the north, broke his oaths, and got himself executed for treason.  He's dead.

I agree

On 14.11.2017 at 5:43 AM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

1. Jon does not look like a Targaryen.  He looks the opposite.  DNA testing has not been invented yet and like I said above, he is a bastard and Rhaegar's children got disinherited. 

Good point.

On 14.11.2017 at 5:43 AM, Noble Lothar Frey said:

Take note that if Rhaegar pulled a miracle and somehow married Lyanna that it made Aegon and Rhaenys bastards.  Aegon and Jon cannot be both legitimate.  Only one can be legit and the other a bastard. 

It depends, some people might accept polygamy, but others like the Faith of the Seven won't. With the faith militant on the rise their opinon are getting increased influence.

[Bael's Bastard]

If you want to examine annulment in Westeros, you should look for examples in Westeros, not Europe. However common it was in Europe, the context in which it has been brought up in this series is an unconsummated marriage. Presumably there are other reasons under which a marriage can be ended or set aside, but I see no basis in Westeros for a marriage which has been consummated and produced two children including a male heir being annulled, unless the paternity of the children was in question. So the whole annulment discussion is completely out of left field.

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

That’s not grounds for an annulment

Yes, it is. Even in modern world. Look part United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment

"Fraud. A spouse is tricked into marrying the other spouse, through the misrepresentation or concealment of important facts about the other spouse, such as a criminal record or infertility."

Important facts could be not only criminal record or infertility, but also if one of spouses is an addict, or has a huge debt, or has a serious desease, etc. and didn't informed about this, his/her significant other, prior their wedding.

4 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Elia’s given him an heir and weak health means nothing.

It means a lot. Out of Rhaella's 9 pregnancies, only two children survived, so survival rate is 22%. Which means that to assure continuation of his line, Rhaegar had to have at least 4 children, or better 5. And Elia can't give birth to any more.

4 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Also who is the Maester telling everyone Elia can’t have anymore children? Could it be a man whose alliegance is to another house and is hoping a certain blonde will become Rhaegar’s wife…

They had their own maester at Dragonstone. And each maester is loyal to house to which he vowed to serve. Elia was very ill after first childbirth. And after second she nearly died. There's no need to be a maester, to realised that even one more child, is not an option.

4 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Rhaegar thinks Aegon’s the PTWP, all of his actions leading up to Robert’s Rebellion revolved around this very belief so I doubt it ever occurred to him Aegon would die. Also Rhaegar has a brother so the dynasty would continue through him, so again no basis for an annulment. 

He isn't interested in continuation of Viserys' line. Also originally he thought that he is the PTWP, but later for some reason he changed his mind and thought, that it will be his children - Prince and dragon heads.

3 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I saw one theory say Rhaegar saw himself as one of the heads…

If he is one of the heads, and he already had two children, then maybe he thought that the child has to be a boy? Thus three heads were Rhaegar, Aegon, and Lyanna's future son.

[Ygrain]

24 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I'm saying that annulment is one of possible options, alongside with divorce and double marriage.

ASOIAF is inspired by Europian medieval history, including War of Roses, Henry VIII, etc.

Henry VIII annulled marriage with his first wife Catherin of Aragorn. Second wife Anne Boleyn was executed. Third wife Jane Seymour died after giving birth to Henry's son Edward. So the king already had a male heir, nevertheless he married again. THREE more times. Fourth wife Anne of Cleves - annulment. Fifth wife Catherine Howard was executed. Sixth wife Catherine Parr wasn't executed, and marriage with her wasn't annuled. Probably only because Henry died two and a half years after their wedding, and he was ill for the most part of that time, so he didn't managed to get rid of his latest wife prior his own death.

Jacqueline Hainaut was married four times, two of her marriages were annulled (she lived at the same period as Henry V). Prior annulment of her marriage with John IV Duke of Brabant, her lady-in-waiting was Eleanor nee Cobham. And later this Eleanor married with her ex-husband John. Also she supposedly had a secret wedding with one of her husbands, two years prior their official wedding.

Catherin of Valois (mother of Henry VI) after death of her first husband Henry V, secretly married with Owen Tudor, and even gave birth to six of his children, including Edmund Tudor. Untill her death those children were raised in secret. Edmure's wife and mother of King Henry VII was Margaret Beaufort. Her first marriage was annuled. She was married four times.

After death of Edward IV, Parliament issued statut that annulled his marriage with Elizabeth Woodville, and all their 10 children became bastards. Their wedding was also secret. Edward's mother Cecily Neville didn't liked his wife Elizabeth, and was trying to make her son to annul his marriage, even though they already had children at that time (three daughters and one son).  

Elizabeth Jane Shore nee Lambert, who was mistress of Edward IV, annulled her marriage with her first husband John Lambert, she claimed that he was impotent.

 

I easily found 7 marriage annulments in times during or close to War of Roses.

 

In actual history of medieval Europe, by which GRRM was inspired, marriage annulment amongst important historical figures, wasn't rare. Kings of England and marriage annulments:

Edward IV - Edward V - Richard III - Henry VII - Henry VIII - all five Kings in a row, had marriage annulment precedents in their lives.

After death of Edward IV, Parliament annuled his marriage with Elizabeth Woodville. Edward V and his brothers and sisters temporarily became bastards, until Henry VII repelled Titulus Regius, that was originally issued by Parliament of Richard III. Henry VIII annulled two of his marriages.

Thus I think that there's no way, that GRRM won't use annulment, at some point in his books.

You're leaving out the circumstances of the annulments.

Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was annulled on the grounds of supposed bigamy because Richard III produced a document claiming Edward had been married to Elizabeth Lucy.

Henry VIII's marriage to Anne de Cleves was based on non-consumption, and to Catherine of Aragon on repelling the dispensation allowing him to marry her in the first place because marrying a brother's widow is forbidden by the bible. 

Margaret Beaufort's marriage first required a dispensation because of consanguinity and was never consummated because she was a child at that time.

Jacqueline Hainault's marriage to John IV again required a dispensation, which was repelled and reinstated as the political winds kept changing, and so was the annulment, and when the annulment was revoked, her marriage to the Duke og Gloucester became annuled on the basis of the previous marriage.

- So, yeah, while annulments were not exactly uncommon, we see them based on three things: non-consumption, previous marriage, and repelling dispensation. None of these apply to Elia.

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

So the whole annulment discussion is completely out of left field.

Actually it isn't.

People claim that Jon is not in line of succession, because even if he is son of Rhaegar, he is still a bastard, thus he has no legal claim. Though annulment of marriage with Elia (or divorce, or somehow getting a special permission from High Septon for a second marriage), is one of options how Jon could be legitimate, and thus have a claim.

So all this annulment discussion is relevant to topic of this thread.

Quote

Presumably there are other reasons under which a marriage can be ended or set aside, but I see no basis in Westeros for a marriage which has been consummated and produced two children including a male heir being annulled, unless the paternity of the children was in question.

How about this - father of both children was Oberyn. Rhaegar learned about this, and that's the reason why he publicly humiliated Elia, by crowning Lyanna, and also left Elia for over a year.

This also explains why Aerys said that the girl smells dornish, and why Oberyn couldn't get over death of Elia and her children, and also why he was hinting to Jaime (or was it Cersei) that he has nothing against incestual love.

Cersei was married to Robert, who was partially Targaryen, and she gave birth to children of her brother Jaime. Could be that Elia, even though she was married with Rhaegar, who was Targaeryen, gave birth to children of her brother Oberyn.

[maudisdottir]

How did Renly propose to get rid of Cersei when he intended to marry Margaery to Robert? According to Varys he planned for Robert to "bed her, wed her and make a new queen". So Robert was either going to set Cersei aside, or take another wife. I don't see why Varys would lie about it to Illyrio, and whether or not it's true, the fact that they're discussing it means it's not totally unheard of.

And I agree with the poster above (sorry I lost my place, you know who you are) about the parallels between Elia and Selyse. We don't know how Elia felt about the prophecy, so we can't predict how she might react to the whole Lyanna/second wife situation. But we do have a queen who is totally on board with her husband banging another woman to achieve his destiny.

[Megorova]

28 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Henry VIII's marriage to Anne de Cleves was based on non-consumption, and to Catherine of Aragon on repelling the dispensation allowing him to marry her in the first place because marrying a brother's widow is forbidden by the bible. 

When he wanted to marry with his brother's widow, he was given special permission, but when he wanted to end their marriage that lasted 24 years, he repelled that permission. Which actually proves only one thing - people of high standing and with lots of money, can do whatever they want, and laws will be changed according to their will.

 

Even Bible has contradictions.

1)

Deuteronomy 25:5

"If two brothers are living together on the same property and one of them dies without a son, his widow may not be married to anyone from outside the family. Instead, her husband's brother should marry her and have intercourse with her to fulfill the duties of a brother-in-law."

Matthew 22:24

""Teacher," they said, "Moses declared that if a man dies without having children, his brother is to marry the widow and raise up offspring for him."

2)

Leviticus 20:21

"If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity. He has violated his brother, and the guilty couple will remain childless."

Matthew 14:4

"Because John had been telling him, "It is not lawful for you to have her."
 

1 and 2 are polar opposites of each other.

My general consensus - what the heck were those people smoking

 

Also Tommen married with his brother's widow.

[Pikachu101]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Thus three heads were Rhaegar, Aegon, and Lyanna's future son.

If you’re right and Rhaegar wanted a son from Lyanna then all the more reason to keep him a bastard who can’t challenge his brother’s claim. Rhaegar was a shortsighted fool but even he would know that Jon Targaryen poses a threat to Aegon because his mother’s a Stark, a bastard son on the other hand can still fulfil the prophecy but at the same time doesn’t have the authority to wage war against his true born brother. 

7 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

 

How did Renly propose to get rid of Cersei when he intended to marry Margaery to Robert?

He knew about Jaime being the real father of Cersei’s children. 

7 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

But we do have a queen who is totally on board with her husband banging another woman to achieve his destiny.

Difference between putting up with your husband’s infidelities (she wouldn’t really have a choice) and allowing him to make your kids bastards. 

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

How about this - father of both children was Oberyn.

That’s a stretch and nothing in the books can prove that. The Dornish are based on Moorish Spain and Palestine; they’re brown, and guess what if you marry a brown woman chances of the kids looking like her are pretty high. Also Aegon was silver haired and purple eyed, is Oberyn? 

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So, yeah, while annulments were not exactly uncommon, we see them based on three things: non-consumption, previous marriage, and repelling dispensation. None of these apply to Elia.

Thank you! If annulments were that easy every Targaryen king who hated his wife would have got one.

People are so desperate to make Jon legitimate when he’s whole character arc revolves around him accepting his bastard identity and making a name out of himself despite his Snow surname. 

The simple truth is Rhaegar wouldn’t marry Lyanna; she had no one to pressure him into marrying her nor would he do something so disastrous it would threaten Aegon’s inheritance. It didn’t matter if the third head wasn’t trueborn as long as they were Targaryen, and a bastard brother is safer than a trueborn brother. 

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

When he wanted to marry with his brother's widow, he was given special permission, but when he wanted to end their marriage that lasted 24 years, he repelled that permission. Which actually proves only one thing - people of high standing and with lots of money, can do whatever they want, and laws will be changed according to their will.

That is true only to a degree. The annulment needed some pretext of legality. Such a pretext didn't exist with Anne Boleyn, so it was easier to execute her on the basis of adultery (which she most likely never committed). Can you find an example of an annulment of a marriage for which no dispensation had been required, the spouses produced living offspring and no previous marriage could be considered an obstacle?

 

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also Tommen married with his brother's widow.

The Faith doesn't have this kind of inhibition, so that's a moot point.

 

8 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

How did Renly propose to get rid of Cersei when he intended to marry Margaery to Robert? According to Varys he planned for Robert to "bed her, wed her and make a new queen". So Robert was either going to set Cersei aside, or take another wife. I don't see why Varys would lie about it to Illyrio, and whether or not it's true, the fact that they're discussing it means it's not totally unheard of.

But again, there would have to be some basis on which Cersei could be set aside - for example, her three cuckoos. I don't think we've ever had an example of anyone setting their wife aside "just because".

BTW, I'm really sorry we never got to see this scenario, I'd pay in gold to see Tywin humiliated in this way and not being able to do a thing because all of Westeros would be more than happy to crush the Lannisters.

8 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

And I agree with the poster above (sorry I lost my place, you know who you are) about the parallels between Elia and Selyse. We don't know how Elia felt about the prophecy, so we can't predict how she might react to the whole Lyanna/second wife situation. But we do have a queen who is totally on board with her husband banging another woman to achieve his destiny.

My line of thinking, too. She might not have been as zealous as Selyse but she may have considered it her duty to swallow her pride for the sake of saving the realm.

[kissdbyfire]

Renly didn't know Cersei's kids were bastards fathered by Jaime.