Has GRRM written believable/relatable females for his female readers?

[Damsel in Distress]

There are no average girls and women.  I guess "average" doesn't make for good drama.  The people, female and male, are on the ends of the scale.  Does that make them unreal?  Not in the world that the author created.  I really love Dany and she's not average.  The average woman (girl in her case) is not  resourceful enough to survive the transition to Dothraki life.  So the character of Dany was written  a lot smarter, braver, and resourceful than the average girl.  I'm an adult and I don't have the smarts and the discipline compared to 13-year old Dany.  I'm not put in a situation to end slavery so my capabilities don't have to be at her level.  I'm confident with my own abilities.  I'm confident with my own appearance.  I get positive feedback on both.  I don't have to be the most beautiful girl in the world to relate to Dany. 

Catelyn hungers for prestige.  She wants to increase her social rank.  That's why she talked Ned to take the job.  Sansa is like Catelyn without the brains.  Arya needs to be put in a straight jacket in a high security institution for the criminally insane.  She's one that I can't relate to.  I don't think we're meant to understand Arya. 

Shae  came up the hard way.  She knows where to find the next rich daddy.  She has street smarts. 

[Lord Varys]

On 21.11.2017 at 1:47 PM, lojzelote said:

My favorite female character - no big surprise here - is Dany. While her AGoT romance story is somewhat hookey, I don't think it is any more unbelievable than the thing we have later got with Jon and Ygritte. I don't think it is a problem with her as a character as much as that GRRM simply isn't very good at writing convincing romance.

He can write romances pretty well in other stories.

Drogo and Ygritte are two sides of the same ugly coin. Drogo is just much worse than Ygritte. But neither of those are very good romances, nor is the Drogo-Dany plot anything that helps her along as a character, especially not if you want to write about strong women.

What saves Daenerys in a sense is the whole magical aspect of her story. That her supernatural destiny and 'blood of the dragon' nature interferes and saves her from killing herself or living the remainder of her (short) life as Khal Drogo's sex slave (until she dies in childbirth, which may have happened already with Rhaego, or perhaps during her second or third pregnancy).

But this arbitrary intervention of destiny is something that damages her as a person. She didn't have all that much of a choice. She didn't want those dragon dreams, she didn't ask for those dragon eggs, nor did she ask them to call out to her and trigger her desire to hatch them.

It is pretty obvious that a slight change in history could have made Viserys 'the chosen one'. He could have been the one bonding with the eggs. He could have been the one having the dreams and figuring out what he had to do. And if that had been the case the meekness and pathetic nature of his character would have been burned away by that dragon fire the same way Dany's dragon dreams saved her from Drogo.

At least if we take the supernatural aspects of Dany's stories seriously. And we should do that.

On 21.11.2017 at 1:47 PM, lojzelote said:

OTOH there is a chance that there might be more to it yet - Qaithe makes it quiete clear that before Dany makes it Westeros she will have to break her "If I look back, I am lost" principle, and reflect on her past life. Dany had never quite psychologically dealt with the fact that Drogo had been a slaver and that if she met him post-ACoK, she would consider him her enemy, a fundamental part of the local slave trade. In fact in her early AGoT chapters, she thinks of herself being sold to him like a slave. In this regard, Quaithe's "To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow" - together with her reunification with the Dothraki at the end of ADwD - promises that this aspect of her past may be dealt with in future.

She will definitely have to face that. And I'm inclined to believe that she will realize what Drogo actually was and what he actually did to her, and that he wasn't really her sun-and-stars after all. The Dothraki as a culture won't survive their reunion with Daenerys Targaryen.

On 21.11.2017 at 1:47 PM, lojzelote said:

I was far more impressed with how GRRM portrayed her relationship with Daario. She was not demonized for her sexual attraction to him and his character has served well as a good projection of her ID.

That was the first time she truly had a romantic and sexual agency of her own.

On 21.11.2017 at 1:47 PM, lojzelote said:

The weakest aspect of the portrayal of her sexual life was certainly her bicurious episode with Irri. Unless she gets a female paramour later, I don't see the purpose of that.

It was just an episode of assisted masturbation in the context and setting of this world. This had nothing to do with romance or proper exploration of sexuality it was simply a powerful woman surrounded by servants getting help in the process of giving herself some relief.

Dany isn't sexually or romantically attracted to women as far as we know, and there is no hint that Irri has any such desires, either.

On 21.11.2017 at 1:47 PM, lojzelote said:

Personally, I haven't got the impression that she has been too hypersexualized by the text (aside of her sexual shenanigans with Drogo). It is true that she describes what is happening with her body often, but honestly, I am somaticly oversentive and self-aware of my body, and I tend to have similar thoughts throughout the day. Of course, other women may feel it differently.

Well, I must say that George doesn't do that kind of thing all that properly. My girlfriends complains a lot about her nipples itching at certain points during her cycle, not to mention the various amounts of vaginal mucus that are produced, and the effects of that, etc. Getting something like that would make Dany's - and many of the other women's - POV more realistic. In that sense, Dany is very much seen and written from a male perspective.

On 21.11.2017 at 1:47 PM, lojzelote said:

Going by TWoW spoiler chapters, we are likely to get a couple more of sexually active preteens in the future, and I must say I wonder how GRRM tackles the issue with them.

I don't want to read any Sansa or Arya sex scenes. That can only go very wrong. I'm pretty sure we'll get Sansa sex but Arya sex should not happen soon. Especially not in the context we had with Raff there. If that trend continues Arya could very well properly seduce somebody only to kill him or her during the act. She might even end up getting off on that if she continues her career as assassin. She very much enjoyed the murder of Raff. Not yet in a sexual way but there are parallels. She is very happy and satisfied in the end.

[lojzelote]

@Lord Varys

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He can write romances pretty well in other stories.

It depends, I guess. From what I've read of his work, his usual formula in regards to romantic relationships is that the male protagonists pines after a woman who either has never wanted him or who had left for another man or purpose. Which is believable and all, but it is not what I imagine under "romance". There are some exceptions to that - most notably Jaan/Gwen in Dying of the Light or Joshua/what's-her-name in Fevre Dream, but as protagonists of these books are Dirk and Abner March, respectively, and we don't get to see inner workings of these couples, I'm not sure how much they really count.

For that matter, his female characters in his earlier novels are rather... underwhelming in comparison to his ASoIaF creations. So, since the OP asked about "progress"... there certainly has been progress as far as GRRM's own writing is concerned. (Female characters in his short stories tend to be better, for some reason.)

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What saves Daenerys in a sense is the whole magical aspect of her story. That her supernatural destiny and 'blood of the dragon' nature interferes and saves her from killing herself or living the remainder of her (short) life as Khal Drogo's sex slave (until she dies in childbirth, which may have happened already with Rhaego, or perhaps during her second or third pregnancy).

But this arbitrary intervention of destiny is something that damages her as a person. She didn't have all that much of a choice. She didn't want those dragon dreams, she didn't ask for those dragon eggs, nor did she ask them to call out to her and trigger her desire to hatch them.

It is pretty obvious that a slight change in history could have made Viserys 'the chosen one'. He could have been the one bonding with the eggs. He could have been the one having the dreams and figuring out what he had to do. And if that had been the case the meekness and pathetic nature of his character would have been burned away by that dragon fire the same way Dany's dragon dreams saved her from Drogo.

At least if we take the supernatural aspects of Dany's stories seriously. And we should do that.

Well, we do have a different understanding of what occurred here.

I am not sure if Dany would or would not have discovered her 'inner dragon' if she hadn't got the dragon eggs, as I am not sure how realistically girls/women in her position would or could have reacted her to these circumstances. I am no psychologist (and neither is GRRM, as far I know).

However, I don't believe that Viserys would have ever been capable of the same during any circumstances. For one, I doubt the fossilized dragons inside the eggs gave a fig about to whom Illyrio had gifted them. If Viserys had in himself whaver 'spark' that Dany apparently had, then he should have also received the dragon dreams and courage etc. due to physical proximity of the unhatched dragons (if we believe they were the stimulus behind Dany's awakening). 

This is actually something that may be (sadly) realistic. I remember from the psychology lectures I had taken a couple of years ago that the nature/nurture ratio is currently estimated to be about 70%/30%, which is pretty bleak if one thinks about it. We are not born equal as blank slates, not in this regard.

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It was just an episode of assisted masturbation in the context and setting of this world. This had nothing to do with romance or proper exploration of sexuality it was simply a powerful woman surrounded by servants getting help in the process of giving herself some relief.

Dany isn't sexually or romantically attracted to women as far as we know, and there is no hint that Irri has any such desires, either.

IIRC it is left somewhat unclear if it was Irri being a female or her not enjoying it that made Dany lose interest. Either way, GRRM could have left it out.

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Well, I must say that George doesn't do that kind of thing all that properly. My girlfriends complains a lot about her nipples itching at certain points during her cycle, not to mention the various amounts of vaginal mucus that are produced, and the effects of that, etc. Getting something like that would make Dany's - and many of the other women's - POV more realistic. In that sense, Dany is very much seen and written from a male perspective.

To be honest, I don't really care to read about any of that. It would be more realistic, but then he might as well write the thoughts of his characters as stream of consciousness, because that also would be more realistic. But, it would not be very pleasant to read (at least for me).

Anyhow, as for accuracy, someone upthread praised his depiction of Sansa's first period... well, that shows how individual these intimate experiences are, because whenever I read that scene, in which Sansa during the very first day of her very first period feels pain and bleeds like a butchered pig, I cannot help but laugh. Compared to my own personal experience, it was about as accurate as a murder scene from a 70s vampire horror-comedy B-movie where the main protagonists bath in lots of orange ketchup blood. But, that's me. Maybe out there are women whose personal experience had truly been as painful and bloody.

Either way, I don't blame GRRM for that, his being a man and all.

(It's not like he writes about night emissions of teenage boys either.)

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I don't want to read any Sansa or Arya sex scenes. That can only go very wrong. I'm pretty sure we'll get Sansa sex but Arya sex should not happen soon. Especially not in the context we had with Raff there. If that trend continues Arya could very well properly seduce somebody only to kill him or her during the act. She might even end up getting off on that if she continues her career as assassin. She very much enjoyed the murder of Raff. Not yet in a sexual way but there are parallels. She is very happy and satisfied in the end.

Neither do I, but what are the chances he won't write about it? He had written the entire AGoT storyline with Dany as a 13/14 years old girl (that - on the top of it - happens to be too small and young-looking for her age), and Sansa and Arya should now be about 5 years older than they really are, thanks to the obliteration of the 5-year-long time jump. Sansa thought in AFfC: "Alayne, who was almost as long of leg at three-and-ten as her aunt had been at twenty." I don't think we are supposed to picture her as a little girl anymore (though she is).

Personally, I find the Dany/Drogo first time scene more disturbing than the Mercy scene. I mean, the Mercy scene is very clear about its, eh, fucked up content - the violence, the language, everything. OTOH the Dany/Drogo scene shows what is (for me) disgusting content with lots of sugar and sprinkles on the top to make it more 'pleasant' or make it 'okay' for the audience or whatever.

[zandru]

18 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

There are no average girls and women.  I guess "average" doesn't make for good drama.

Well, sure there are, but they're not necessarily main characters. Actually, I find Sansa to be very 'average', which probably contributes to some disliking her - such a let down! But it's probably good to have an average prom-queen type character amidst all the heroes. Kind of grounds us.

5 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Sansa thought in AFfC: "Alayne, who was almost as long of leg at three-and-ten as her aunt had been at twenty." I don't think we are supposed to picture her as a little girl anymore (though she is). [my emphasis]

You're seeing this through 20th/21st century eyes. We infantilize children and allow 'childhood' and irresponsibility to persist much longer than was done centuries ago, millennia ago. In Westerosi terms, Sansa has been groomed and trained for the Life Of A High Lady; she knows that she's A Woman Grown once her first period starts. Now she's at the age of consent. Boys are boys until 16, when they become Men Grown, which corresponds somewhat to the slightly longer time it takes guys to attain their growth. You're thinking that 'maturity' can't be attained until the age of 21 or something, but that's just because we have not asked it of young people any earlier. In Westeros, they train their children to take on adult responsibilities much earlier in life.

[lojzelote]

13 hours ago, zandru said:

 

You're seeing this through 20th/21st century eyes. We infantilize children and allow 'childhood' and irresponsibility to persist much longer than was done centuries ago, millennia ago. In Westerosi terms, Sansa has been groomed and trained for the Life Of A High Lady; she knows that she's A Woman Grown once her first period starts. Now she's at the age of consent. Boys are boys until 16, when they become Men Grown, which corresponds somewhat to the slightly longer time it takes guys to attain their growth. You're thinking that 'maturity' can't be attained until the age of 21 or something, but that's just because we have not asked it of young people any earlier. In Westeros, they train their children to take on adult responsibilities much earlier in life.

It is one thing to have responsibilities like helping to run a household and welcome important guests, and quite another being emotionally and physically prepared for reproduction and parenthood and all the emotional mess of romantic and sexual relationships. And by that I don't mean kissing and experimenting with another teenager, but whatever is going to go down between her and Baelish, the guy that is 20 years her senior and who can't decide if he views her more as his daughter or his love interest. That would be likely disstressing for a woman of any age, but in her case it may also damage her half-formed view of intimate relationships. I have not noticed any great maturity in Sansa in that regard.

For that matter, I was fourteen when I had my first period and it took the better part of the next two years for my menstrual cycle to stabilize. Not to mention that I haven't finished forming a proper womanly figure (breasts, hips, and all) until I was sixteen or seventeen. I don't think that I have been "infantilized" by my parents and society just because they believed I was not prepared for sex (and its consequences) at thirteen. Maybe I was a bit of a late bloomer for my time, but from what I've heard from my grandmothers and read about the topic in magazines, in earlier time periods there would have been nothing at all unusual about it. There is still a discussion over whether these changes might be due to genetic changes, more hormones in our food, or other environmental factors.

Anyhow, think León, and consider what Mathilda ( played by a 12 year old Natalie Portman) looked like and how uncomfortable was the scene where she made her move on Leon. That's not what I imagine a young woman looking like, no matter how much responsible and street-smart she might be. She is clearly not yet meant to parttake in sex and reproduction - her secondary sexual characteristics are still visibly underdeveloped. But, even if she already developed a shapely figure (like Sansa), would have meant it that she knows what she is getting into? Should a 12-year-old without womanly curves be treated by society differently than a 12-year-old with womanly curves? I do not like that idea. 

Also, the US do not constitute the whole world. In my country, the age of majority is 18, the age of consent 15. Which does not mean that someone is not as mature at 14 than another is at 16, but 15/16 years are good average ages, imho. A couple of years ago there was a political debate if the age of consent should not be lowered to 14, but the public was against it.

[The Sleeper]

On 21/11/2017 at 2:47 PM, lojzelote said:

Unfortunately, Catelyn is also a prominent sufferer of the "Mother who Loses her Children Loses her Mind" syndrome that I really could do without. It happend to Catelyn in the moments before her death, it happened to her sister Lysa, it happened to Alannys Harlaw Greyjoy, it happened to Rhaenyra Targaryen, it is happeining to Cersei. Enough of that bullcrap please.

I think that is an oversimplification. Catelyn basically lost everything she cared about before seeing her last surviving offspring (that she knew off) being buthcered before her eyes. And this is after a war that has gone disastrously in a very short period of time. Even so, Lady Stoneheart is harsh and ruthless, but she is hardly irrational. Lysa's state of mind is the result of losing her lover in a violent tramautic, being forced into an abortion and marriage with an old man in private disgrace, then suffering through a long series of failed pregnancies, while her only child has a dangerous and debilitating health problem she has no way to deal with. Lysa also appears irrational through her sister's eyes who has very mistaken ideas about her actions, disposition and agenda. I wouldn't expect anyone to deal with these kinds of situations with equanimity and emerged unscathed, nor would I describe the end result as having lost their minds.

Rhaenyra would be a better fit, having made rash emotional decisions after traumatic events and again you have multiple losses, in the midst of war. People go through bereavement and make emotional irrational decisions even at the best of times. I'm not sure it qualifies as having lost their minds. You could make the argument that Robb lost his mind when he married Jayne after hearing about his brothers' death on the same grounds.

The cases that present as a syndrome as you call it are the Harlaw sisters. In their case however they are much older. And on the other hand, Arya encounters an old knight during her travails with the Brotherhood, who is said to have lost his mind after having lost his sons in Robert's rebellion was not right in the head. And then there is ser Eustace from Dunk & Egg whose relationship with reality has its share of bumps and obstacles. In these cases there is a combination of grievous losses, old age, isolation and lack of meaningful engagement. Under these circumstances I find the portrayal convincing.

On 21/11/2017 at 2:47 PM, lojzelote said:

Cersei... let's just say that I used to empathize with Cersei before we got her POV. The sad thing is that she has said a lot of truthful things about Westerosi gender roles, double standard, and misogyny... but I feel that her utter evilness and stupidity in all other matters undermines the message. GRRM would have done better if Cersei had become sociopathic and hateful due to her treatment by Tywin and Robert instead of having been born a narcistic psychopath or whatever little girls that throw their friends down the well tend to be diagnosed with. She's the evil, ambitious queen that misuses her sexuality to get she wants played straight in all her glory, and she's delusional on the top of it. Bah, at least she has a good sense of humor, I guess. That said, the more people try to make her the sinful Eve to Jaime's innocent, mislead Adam, the more positively I am going to regard her (at least she owns being a villain and tries to think, as opposed to her twin).

I think Cersei has a direct parallel in Theon. Though the former is the most extreme case, they are essentially both shits that got a raw deal, that is unlike to get them any outward sympathy, from other characters in the story. After all Cersei is a queen and Theon, being a ward/hostage is a time-honored practise. Both situations are inescapable and serve to build long-standing resentment. I think it is meant that their situations are meant to feed into their characters and exacerbate them, so that they would both explode disastrously when the opportunity presented itself, ironically when both of these characters were on the verge of grasping their long held dreams.

Cersei is that combination of monstrous entitlement with repression, both internalized and external. I think that self possession is needed to maintain the years long scheming, of fighting in the dark and all that relentless grind, that Cersei got through. I'd say Tywin raised her all the way through, on one hand instilling her the notion that everything exists to serve her, while using her as a pawn with hardly an afterthought.

On 21/11/2017 at 2:47 PM, lojzelote said:

 

Another fail (though not to the same extent) is Selyse, imho. It's not the idea that a nasty woman tried to self-realize through religion and her husband's career and social standing - that is quite believable. The part I abhorr is how the narrative supports making fun of her appearance - it is not that the other characters are being petty and insensitive, but that she does not seem to be extended any sympathy by the narrative for it (as opposed to Brienne).  Much like with Cersei, I feel GRRM lost an opportunity here.

It's easy to see Selyse as a caricature, however the treatment she gets for her appearance, combined with the humiliations during her marriage, her absence from the courts by residing on dragonstone, her lack of fecundity, her daughter being deemed defective and her husbands distance paint the portrait of a profoundly unhappy, isolated and frustrated, who mirrors Stannis very well. Selyse is a daughter of a powerful house, married to the brother of the king, a celebrated commnder and a great lord. By all rights she should have enjoyed influence and respect and yet these are curtailed for various reasons, so she sets up her mockery of a court and plays it to the bone, with as much officiousness and pomposity as she can muster, like Stannis finds refuge in his duty. Her demeanor is imperious and any comments about her appearance are made behind her back. Consider also that the two people she gives ground to are Melisandre and Stannis. They make quite the triangle and how she is left out in that as well.

[zandru]

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

It is one thing to have responsibilities like helping to run a household and welcome important guests, and quite another being emotionally and physically prepared for reproduction and parenthood and all the emotional mess of romantic and sexual relationships.

But Sansa felt herself ready, at 11, for all this, and fantasized about it often. I know we tend to understand other people by looking inside ourselves, but it's important to remember, they are other people.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Also, the US do not constitute the whole world.

And we can thank the gods for this. Particularly now.

42 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

People go through bereavement and make emotional irrational decisions even at the best of times. I'm not sure it qualifies as having lost their minds.

I think your analyses of the various characters is really excellent and eye opening. Particularly Selyse, who seems to have gotten the short end of the stick in many discussions. Mocked as 'the bearded queen' by the freefolk, mocked as the reason Stannis spends all his time in King's Landing while she sits on Dragonstone, mocked as a religious fanatic in the various points of view, few think too deeply about why, and what this has done to her, as you do. Thanks!

[lojzelote]

@The Sleeper

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I think that is an oversimplification. Catelyn basically lost everything she cared about before seeing her last surviving offspring (that she knew off) being buthcered before her eyes. And this is after a war that has gone disastrously in a very short period of time. Even so, Lady Stoneheart is harsh and ruthless, but she is hardly irrational. Lysa's state of mind is the result of losing her lover in a violent tramautic, being forced into an abortion and marriage with an old man in private disgrace, then suffering through a long series of failed pregnancies, while her only child has a dangerous and debilitating health problem she has no way to deal with. Lysa also appears irrational through her sister's eyes who has very mistaken ideas about her actions, disposition and agenda. I wouldn't expect anyone to deal with these kinds of situations with equanimity and emerged unscathed, nor would I describe the end result as having lost their minds.

Rhaenyra would be a better fit, having made rash emotional decisions after traumatic events and again you have multiple losses, in the midst of war. People go through bereavement and make emotional irrational decisions even at the best of times. I'm not sure it qualifies as having lost their minds. You could make the argument that Robb lost his mind when he married Jayne after hearing about his brothers' death on the same grounds.

The cases that present as a syndrome as you call it are the Harlaw sisters. In their case however they are much older. And on the other hand, Arya encounters an old knight during her travails with the Brotherhood, who is said to have lost his mind after having lost his sons in Robert's rebellion was not right in the head. And then there is ser Eustace from Dunk & Egg whose relationship with reality has its share of bumps and obstacles. In these cases there is a combination of grievous losses, old age, isolation and lack of meaningful engagement. Under these circumstances I find the portrayal convincing.

Well, I've heard of and/or personally known several women (and men) that have lost all their family including children. They had a very hard time indeed - usually they had an emotional breakdown, some had problems with alcohol etc., but in nearly all cases they recovered and they certainly had not torn their own face with their nails or try to murder people due to their insecurities. So, I do find GRRM's portrayal skewed in one direction.

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I think Cersei has a direct parallel in Theon. Though the former is the most extreme case, they are essentially both shits that got a raw deal, that is unlike to get them any outward sympathy, from other characters in the story. After all Cersei is a queen and Theon, being a ward/hostage is a time-honored practise. Both situations are inescapable and serve to build long-standing resentment. I think it is meant that their situations are meant to feed into their characters and exacerbate them, so that they would both explode disastrously when the opportunity presented itself, ironically when both of these characters were on the verge of grasping their long held dreams.

Cersei is that combination of monstrous entitlement with repression, both internalized and external. I think that self possession is needed to maintain the years long scheming, of fighting in the dark and all that relentless grind, that Cersei got through. I'd say Tywin raised her all the way through, on one hand instilling her the notion that everything exists to serve her, while using her as a pawn with hardly an afterthought.

There are parallels between Cersei and Theon, but there are also notable differences.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can very well imagine that if Theon had been at birth placed into a loving, supportive family without a threat to his life, toxic societal expectations etc., he would have grown to be a mostly decent guy. I cannot imagine the same happening with Cersei. Her problem is likely more than nurture. I mean, Tywin might have been a terrible parent, but it's not like if he were micromanaging Cersei's life when she was a little girl. It would have been nurses, septas, and other servants that would have been rearing her, just like any other noble child in Westeros. Still, she's one of those rare children that become murderers before they reach puberty.

That is not to say it is unrealistic, I simply wish that GRRM did not play the Evil Queen plot so straight. I prefer characters with more nuance. GRRM tries to gather sympathy for her by also making her a victim of misogyny but since she would have been an evil witch anyway, I'm just not feeling it.

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It's easy to see Selyse as a caricature, however the treatment she gets for her appearance, combined with the humiliations during her marriage, her absence from the courts by residing on dragonstone, her lack of fecundity, her daughter being deemed defective and her husbands distance paint the portrait of a profoundly unhappy, isolated and frustrated, who mirrors Stannis very well. Selyse is a daughter of a powerful house, married to the brother of the king, a celebrated commnder and a great lord. By all rights she should have enjoyed influence and respect and yet these are curtailed for various reasons, so she sets up her mockery of a court and plays it to the bone, with as much officiousness and pomposity as she can muster, like Stannis finds refuge in his duty. Her demeanor is imperious and any comments about her appearance are made behind her back. Consider also that the two people she gives ground to are Melisandre and Stannis. They make quite the triangle and how she is left out in that as well.

I agree that there are reasons as to why Selyse would have turned the way she did. But, so far the narrative has not cared to bring any attention to them, instead she is treated like a joke. The narrative extends sympathy to Stannis and Shireen (and even the likes of Cersei), but there is lack of it for Selyse, imho. She is the walking joke, Stannis' ugly, unpleasant wife that has only given him a single girl and whose existence is just another proof how much Stannis' life sucks and additional reason why people don't like him.

That said, there is chance that in the future she might become Klytaimnestra to Stannis' Agamemnon.

@zandru

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But Sansa felt herself ready, at 11, for all this, and fantasized about it often. I know we tend to understand other people by looking inside ourselves, but it's important to remember, they are other people.

I think that Sansa's story so far has been a sufficient proof that a 11-year-old Sansa hadn't the foggiest about realities of life. She imagines life to be some kind of fairy tale fantasy. Her crushes on Joffrey and Loras are basically the same as irl preteen girls fangirling over Justin Bieber, not evidence of maturity.

Anyway, I am willing to overlook this feature of GRRM's work, since I know that he had originally intended for these characters to be older. In general I just pretend that they are all older, just like I pretend that the Wall is not too big.

[zandru]

45 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

They had a very hard time indeed - usually they had an emotional breakdown, some had problems with alcohol etc., but in nearly all cases they recovered and they certainly had not torn their own face with their nails or try to murder people due to their insecurities. [my emphasis]

Sounds as if your friends took a few days, maybe even months or years, to get straightened out. How is this in any way comparable to Catelyn's immediate reaction, amidst a hall of horrors, with archers shooting down on the assembled guests, hosts stabbing guests with knives, over it all a booming drum pounding, pounding, pounding and the screams of the dying and injured?

Give the woman a few years to get drunk, withdraw from life, spend some time in analysis like your friends, and sure, Catelyn would probably have been fine. So what? Why didn't the woman just call 911?

[lojzelote]

56 minutes ago, zandru said:

Sounds as if your friends took a few days, maybe even months or years, to get straightened out. How is this in any way comparable to Catelyn's immediate reaction, amidst a hall of horrors, with archers shooting down on the assembled guests, hosts stabbing guests with knives, over it all a booming drum pounding, pounding, pounding and the screams of the dying and injured?

Give the woman a few years to get drunk, withdraw from life, spend some time in analysis like your friends, and sure, Catelyn would probably have been fine. So what? Why didn't the woman just call 911?

Oh c'mon. I mean, have you ever heard of someone irl tearing apart their face that way? It's reaction in the vein of Oedipus blinding himself. It belongs to drama, not real life.

But, my larger point is that GRRM has created a number of scenarios, in which women are felled by the loss of their children and don't get back on their feet. I'd like to see an example of a woman that survived and either started a new family or found some other purpose in life.

[Lord Varys]

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

@Lord Varys

It depends, I guess. From what I've read of his work, his usual formula in regards to romantic relationships is that the male protagonists pines after a woman who either has never wanted him or who had left for another man or purpose. Which is believable and all, but it is not what I imagine under "romance".

You have a point there, but from a male perspective you can relate to that.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

There are some exceptions to that - most notably Jaan/Gwen in Dying of the Light or Joshua/what's-her-name in Fevre Dream, but as protagonists of these books are Dirk and Abner March, respectively, and we don't get to see inner workings of these couples, I'm not sure how much they really count.

Gwen is a terrible female character. She is little more than a male fantasy, overall. When everything is out in the open in the end she is sort of clearer and more in her own as a character but she is still very much seen from a male point of view, with men talking a lot about her, etc.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

For that matter, his female characters in his earlier novels are rather... underwhelming in comparison to his ASoIaF creations. So, since the OP asked about "progress"... there certainly has been progress as far as GRRM's own writing is concerned. (Female characters in his short stories tend to be better, for some reason.)

The short stories have pretty interesting female characters. The proto-Dany body switch witch from 'The Glass Flower' (which really makes it clear that George *really* is into that kind type of a child woman), the witch from the fantasy werewolf story, the woman (and captor) from the incestuous-wildling ice planet culture, the female detective from 'The Skin Trade', the female ghost who visits her old college buddies, etc.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

I am not sure if Dany would or would not have discovered her 'inner dragon' if she hadn't got the dragon eggs, as I am not sure how realistically girls/women in her position would or could have reacted her to these circumstances. I am no psychologist (and neither is GRRM, as far I know).

The way it is written makes it clear that Drogo's treatment was breaking her. She wanted to kill herself when she had the dragon dream. That was essentially a miraculous intervention.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

However, I don't believe that Viserys would have ever been capable of the same during any circumstances. For one, I doubt the fossilized dragons inside the eggs gave a fig about to whom Illyrio had gifted them. If Viserys had in himself whaver 'spark' that Dany apparently had, then he should have also received the dragon dreams and courage etc. due to physical proximity of the unhatched dragons (if we believe they were the stimulus behind Dany's awakening). 

The point there is more that all Targaryens basically seem to have the 'blood of the dragon' thing. They all have the potential to do what Dany did. The fact that they never were in the right situation or that they were missing *something* is what I mean by miraculous intervention. Dany got saved because fate decided she was 'the one'. It is not something she herself as a person could control.

If Viserys had been 'the one' his entire demeanor would also have suddenly changed from half-mad and pathetic to controlled and competent.

And in that sense it is completely arbitrary that Dany suddenly has it in her to become the Mother of Dragons. It was her blood calling out to the dragon eggs, basically.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

This is actually something that may be (sadly) realistic. I remember from the psychology lectures I had taken a couple of years ago that the nature/nurture ratio is currently estimated to be about 70%/30%, which is pretty bleak if one thinks about it. We are not born equal as blank slates, not in this regard.

Even if you could do much more with nurture, nobody ever prepared Daenerys to become a powerful and competent leader. The girl we meet in her first chapter really doesn't have it in her to suddenly take charge of anything. That she suddenly can do all that is not presented as a normal development in a normal person but as a miraculous development in person who has, at least in part, supernatural or magical abilities.

And I really think Dany works as such a character. She works as a supernatural heroine-savior character, not so much as a realistic character in a realistic environment.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

IIRC it is left somewhat unclear if it was Irri being a female or her not enjoying it that made Dany lose interest. Either way, GRRM could have left it out.

He wanted to show us that Dany is over Drogo and has real and actual sexual needs and desire. That is part of a complete and realistic female character.

Within the framework of the world - where powerful women actually sleep in the same room/bed as their female servants - it is not odd or strange that there would be some assisted masturbation.

It is a pity that we don't get something like that for Jon. George omits a lot of jerking off there. But then, Satin is still there, so perhaps we are going to get some progress on that front.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

To be honest, I don't really care to read about any of that. It would be more realistic, but then he might as well write the thoughts of his characters as stream of consciousness, because that also would be more realistic. But, it would not be very pleasant to read (at least for me).

It would make Dany a more real woman. Whether it is pleasant for a woman to read about things women really don't like all that much isn't for me to say. But I'd prefer realism in the depiction of the female body - and the issues women have with that - to male fantasy.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

Anyhow, as for accuracy, someone upthread praised his depiction of Sansa's first period... well, that shows how individual these intimate experiences are, because whenever I read that scene, in which Sansa during the very first day of her very first period feels pain and bleeds like a butchered pig, I cannot help but laugh. Compared to my own personal experience, it was about as accurate as a murder scene from a 70s vampire horror-comedy B-movie where the main protagonists bath in lots of orange ketchup blood. But, that's me. Maybe out there are women whose personal experience had truly been as painful and bloody.

From what I hear it can be rather painful. My girlfriend still has to take quite a few painkillers each time. And considering that the first time can hit you completely unexpected and unprepared it can be pretty unpleasant.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

(It's not like he writes about night emissions of teenage boys either.)

He should do that somewhat more. But there are things men don't want to read or write about men, either.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

Neither do I, but what are the chances he won't write about it? He had written the entire AGoT storyline with Dany as a 13/14 years old girl (that - on the top of it - happens to be too small and young-looking for her age), and Sansa and Arya should now be about 5 years older than they really are, thanks to the obliteration of the 5-year-long time jump. Sansa thought in AFfC: "Alayne, who was almost as long of leg at three-and-ten as her aunt had been at twenty." I don't think we are supposed to picture her as a little girl anymore (though she is).

I think that was a nod towards Sophie Turner in combination with the scrap of the gap. Keep in mind that both chapters were originally written as their first chapters after the gap. That shows. Both in the way young Lord Robert talks (who is way too mature in comparison to his last appearance in AFfC) as well as in the entire Arya-Raff interaction. That would be perfectly fine for a girl in her mid-late-teens but is very hard to swallow if a 12-year-old does it.

On 22.11.2017 at 7:27 PM, lojzelote said:

Personally, I find the Dany/Drogo first time scene more disturbing than the Mercy scene. I mean, the Mercy scene is very clear about its, eh, fucked up content - the violence, the language, everything. OTOH the Dany/Drogo scene shows what is (for me) disgusting content with lots of sugar and sprinkles on the top to make it more 'pleasant' or make it 'okay' for the audience or whatever.

The Mercy chapter has Arya do very shitty stuff. It is fucked-up because one of our heroes is doing - and liking - this stuff. The Dany chapter is fucked up because it does indeed sell us forced marriage, child abuse, and rape as something that can be okay.

Dany is not in the position to give Drogo consent. It is pretty clear she never wanted the man to touch her in the first place. If I touch a 13-year-old girl long enough so she is wet and aroused enough to want to be fucked by me I'd be still a child molester and rapist. The same is true if I buy such a child from her brother who essentially forces her 'to make me happy'.

22 hours ago, zandru said:

You're seeing this through 20th/21st century eyes. We infantilize children and allow 'childhood' and irresponsibility to persist much longer than was done centuries ago, millennia ago. In Westerosi terms, Sansa has been groomed and trained for the Life Of A High Lady; she knows that she's A Woman Grown once her first period starts. Now she's at the age of consent. Boys are boys until 16, when they become Men Grown, which corresponds somewhat to the slightly longer time it takes guys to attain their growth. You're thinking that 'maturity' can't be attained until the age of 21 or something, but that's just because we have not asked it of young people any earlier. In Westeros, they train their children to take on adult responsibilities much earlier in life.

Sansa is still too young to have sex and marry by normal Westerosi standards. She is barely thirteen now, and maidens are usually married around 15-16 at the earliest. It is possible to marry off girls as soon as they can bear children, but it is not proper to do so. There are also marriages involving children and infants (Tommen, Ermesande Hayford, Aegon III, Jaehaera, Daenaera Velaryon, etc.) but those are done out of political necessity. They are not things that are supposed to emulated.

And writing stuff about sexually active/mature children gives the impression the author thinks it is okay that children do that kind of stuff. Which it is not.

It is okay if Sansa and Arya entered into erotic adventures of their own, exploring their own sexuality with people (roughly) their own age, and in environment where they are more or less free to experiment the way they want - as real children hitting/entering puberty do sooner or later - but to hand them over to grown-up men, possibly ten or more years older, isn't something we should want to read about.

9 hours ago, lojzelote said:

It is one thing to have responsibilities like helping to run a household and welcome important guests, and quite another being emotionally and physically prepared for reproduction and parenthood and all the emotional mess of romantic and sexual relationships. And by that I don't mean kissing and experimenting with another teenager, but whatever is going to go down between her and Baelish, the guy that is 20 years her senior and who can't decide if he views her more as his daughter or his love interest. That would be likely disstressing for a woman of any age, but in her case it may also damage her half-formed view of intimate relationships. I have not noticed any great maturity in Sansa in that regard.

That is actually an important point. And I don't think that the double-faced Littlefinger is confusing her, there, it is also her weird romantic view of the Sandor thing. The man was the only nice guy to her in an utterly shitty environment - or the only guy she felt was nice to her. That created some sort of weird attachment, but attachments formed under such circumstances are not healthy. And it doesn't help that Sandor is fucked-up on more than one level.

But it wouldn't be much different if Sansa had formed a bond with some other man in KL who was part of the system that kept her prisoner there. If she had fallen in love with Tyrion, Arys Oakheart, or Tommen it wouldn't be all that different because we can be reasonably certain that Sansa would have never formed such attachments under normal circumstances where she had any say in the question as to who she hangs out with, etc.

9 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Anyhow, think León, and consider what Mathilda ( played by a 12 year old Natalie Portman) looked like and how uncomfortable was the scene where she made her move on Leon. That's not what I imagine a young woman looking like, no matter how much responsible and street-smart she might be. She is clearly not yet meant to parttake in sex and reproduction - her secondary sexual characteristics are still visibly underdeveloped. But, even if she already developed a shapely figure (like Sansa), would have meant it that she knows what she is getting into? Should a 12-year-old without womanly curves be treated by society differently than a 12-year-old with womanly curves? I do not like that idea.

From a male point of view, it is a fact that adolescent girls with developing female body are seen as very, very attractive if we are talking about sexual attraction. That is simply a fact of biology. We can't get around that.

But that doesn't mean we should treat 13-17 year-old-girls as adults. They are not. They deserve a safe space to come into their own without being preyed upon by adult men. But it can be very hard to differentiate between a well-developed 14-year-old and an 18-year-old if they are dressed up and made up in a certain way. And the opposite goes as well.

Girls who pretty much still look like children are usually seen as children by most men.

Selyse actually is portrayed somewhat better in ADwD, I think. She has more than one point when talking to Jon, and it is quite clear she is the only one in her family who actually loves her daughter. She is the one who cares for her, not Stannis. And I really the way she doesn't take shit from Jon.

The fact that she is ugly and mocked for that is unfortunate, but that's just something people do. 

If somebody is a walking joke it is Stannis. I really got annoyed by the fact that the two women who had never met the men also came around this 'Stannis is uncomfortable around women' routine. Yes, women may recognize this eventually, but neither Asha nor Alysane should catch on that just after seeing the man or two times. He could just be irritated by man-women in armor, etc.

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, lojzelote said:

But, my larger point is that GRRM has created a number of scenarios, in which women are felled by the loss of their children and don't get back on their feet. I'd like to see an example of a woman that survived and either started a new family or found some other purpose in life.

You are right there, but I think the Rhaenyra example is somewhat misguided. She got a blow by her stillbirth and by Lucerys' death, but later on the loss of Viserys and Jacaerys strengthened her, instead of tearing her down. And the final loss of Joffrey affected her isn't clear. It wouldn't have raised her spirits, but things were already pretty much lost at that point, anyway. When she returned to Dragonstone she did go there battered and beaten, but not defeated. She intended to continue the fight, and she got a much better exit than Catelyn.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 11/17/2017 at 6:55 PM, Sigella said:

1 No. Maybe the pseudo-lesbian trysts and Arianne don't ring completely true to me but what do I know. Tyrion defiling his chamberpot isn't tasteful either, so.

2 Yes.

3 No clue. Although Jaime's memories/dreams of Joanna is brilliant writing imo.

4 The whores and the raping are consistent throughout but still quite unbearable, especially considering that isn't exclusively medieval occurrences. Utterly depressing. But also: Dany lives a pretty swag life on top of her pyramid.

5 Not really. Maybe Arya or Cersei because they are most like me.

6 The thing that sold me to the series was that a girl got the dragons. No way in hell I'd ever read fantasy otherwise. 

 

I personally have this wishful thinking theory that GRRM is setting the anti-Dany-people up so that we all get to mock them when Dany turns out to be the ultimate hero. Might not qualify as progress, though  

 

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And writing stuff about sexually active/mature children gives the impression the author thinks it is okay that children do that kind of stuff. Which it is not.

You don't like the Dark Ages. A perfectly normal and decent feeling. However, George RR is trying to give an accurate picture of what they were like for women. For sword&sorcery, sword-swinging girls in chainmail bikinis we have to look elsewhere.

1 hour ago, lojzelote said:

Oh c'mon. I mean, have you ever heard of someone irl tearing apart their face that way? I

I can well imagine clawing hysterically at myself if I were feeling great distress and could see no recourse. Back in the day, rending one's clothing or tearing at one's hair used to be typical expressions of grief. You appear to be one of the very lucky who doesn't feel things deeply - or suffer heavy or painful menstruation. Be glad!

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, zandru said:

You don't like the Dark Ages. A perfectly normal and decent feeling. However, George RR is trying to give an accurate picture of what they were like for women. For sword&sorcery, sword-swinging girls in chainmail bikinis we have to look elsewhere.

No sane person likes the dark ages.

However, nobody forced George R. R. Martin to write a series of novels set in a fake medieval fantasy were ridiculous things like the First Night are a thing, not to mention wife-beating, forced marriages, marital rape, etc.

His depiction of realistic and convincing female characters as an author is different from the nature and rules of the world he created. The latter are most definitely misogynistic to the highest possible degree, and it was his choice - and his choice alone - to do that kind of thing.

[The Sleeper]

17 hours ago, lojzelote said:

@The Sleeper

Well, I've heard of and/or personally known several women (and men) that have lost all their family including children. They had a very hard time indeed - usually they had an emotional breakdown, some had problems with alcohol etc., but in nearly all cases they recovered and they certainly had not torn their own face with their nails or try to murder people due to their insecurities. So, I do find GRRM's portrayal skewed in one direction.

 

When you come down to it, Catelyn had a breakdown. And then she died. The breakdown, given the circumstances is warranted, even expected. And despite the dramatic aspect self-mutilation happens. We don't get to see how she would have fared if she had lived. There is an example of male character that lost it after he lost his sons that I forgot to mention. Rickard Karstark ultimately went berserk endangering the continued survival of his house. Lysa does not fit into the mold as the root of her condition is more an obsession going back to adolescence, followed by a long string of misery and disappointments.

On the other hand there is lady Hornwood who seemed to be holding up. I don't see a pattern. Apart from characters being severely affected by traumatic circumstances, which is self-evident, each case is individual enough in make up, circumstances and reactions and in my view well-established.

17 hours ago, lojzelote said:

 

There are parallels between Cersei and Theon, but there are also notable differences.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can very well imagine that if Theon had been at birth placed into a loving, supportive family without a threat to his life, toxic societal expectations etc., he would have grown to be a mostly decent guy. I cannot imagine the same happening with Cersei. Her problem is likely more than nurture. I mean, Tywin might have been a terrible parent, but it's not like if he were micromanaging Cersei's life when she was a little girl. It would have been nurses, septas, and other servants that would have been rearing her, just like any other noble child in Westeros. Still, she's one of those rare children that become murderers before they reach puberty.

That is not to say it is unrealistic, I simply wish that GRRM did not play the Evil Queen plot so straight. I prefer characters with more nuance. GRRM tries to gather sympathy for her by also making her a victim of misogyny but since she would have been an evil witch anyway, I'm just not feeling it.

The first question is why would or should her nature make a difference. Does the fact that she is an evil bitch justify her being forced into marriage and being raped by her husband? After all it had nothing to do with her character. It was politics plain and simple.

As far as her upbringing is concerned she got her entitlement from being a Lannister and her marriage was dictated by Tywin. He was unequivocally the single greatest influence in her life. The festering hatred that is evident in Feast has its source and its target on Tywin, yet she dares not acknowledge it herself so it spills out against everyone else. It is also that attitude of seeing the world as existing for her benefit that allows her to see other people as lesser and to inflict harm on them when she finds them in anyway objectionable.

The way I see it, Cersei has tons of nuance. It is just that it is all dark, disturbing and discomfiting.

17 hours ago, lojzelote said:

 

I agree that there are reasons as to why Selyse would have turned the way she did. But, so far the narrative has not cared to bring any attention to them, instead she is treated like a joke. The narrative extends sympathy to Stannis and Shireen (and even the likes of Cersei), but there is lack of it for Selyse, imho. She is the walking joke, Stannis' ugly, unpleasant wife that has only given him a single girl and whose existence is just another proof how much Stannis' life sucks and additional reason why people don't like him.

That said, there is chance that in the future she might become Klytaimnestra to Stannis' Agamemnon.

It is the narrative that shows how she is being treated. It is after all a strict in story point of view. What we see as readers is woman being mocked behind her back in a juvenile, petty way. Granted, the first reaction of the reader is to adopt the point of view of the character who is telling the story. Stepping back from that Selyse's treatment is front and centre. Another example would be Littlefinger making fun of Shireen's disfigurement. Did  you think that Shireen's predicament was worthy of mirth or that Littlefinger was being a complete jackass? Ultimately Selyse's treatment shouldn't be any different. Yet it is, because she is an adult and not sympathetic in other respects. The fact remains that all the elements of her characterization are there. My first impression of Selyse was not positive, I'm not more enlightened than the next person. It still isn't positive though for different reasons. It would be interesting to see how she plays out and if these elements come to a head, it depends however on the demands of the greater plot and Martin's whims.

[Consigliere]

I think Martin has done a great job with his female characters. It's not about "strong women ^TM" but rather that female characters, just like their male counterparts, have their own motivators, influences and history that shapes their decisions and character. As Martin has said, "women are people too". The only other fantasy author I've come across who writes better female characters is Robin Hobb.

[lojzelote]

@Lord Varys

I've got to read to the one about proto-Dany, then! Is she also that petite? The way the maester in TWoIaF describes Queen Naerys (Dany's alleged look-alike), she comes across as rather inhuman-looking, If his description is not hyperbolic, that is.

Anyway, GRRM keeps reusing physical descriptions. For example, Joshua York from Fevre Dream has a very Targaryen flair to him, except for his eyes, while girlfriend has dark hair and purple eyes ala Ashara Dayne (that's the only thing I remember about her aside of her high-risk pregnancy... it says it all about how interesting character she was).

Quote

The way it is written makes it clear that Drogo's treatment was breaking her. She wanted to kill herself when she had the dragon dream. That was essentially a miraculous intervention.

The point there is more that all Targaryens basically seem to have the 'blood of the dragon' thing. They all have the potential to do what Dany did. The fact that they never were in the right situation or that they were missing *something* is what I mean by miraculous intervention. Dany got saved because fate decided she was 'the one'. It is not something she herself as a person could control.

If Viserys had been 'the one' his entire demeanor would also have suddenly changed from half-mad and pathetic to controlled and competent.

And in that sense it is completely arbitrary that Dany suddenly has it in her to become the Mother of Dragons. It was her blood calling out to the dragon eggs, basically.

I always took it for mobilization of psychical powers.

Anyway, I think that Viserys wasn't "the one" for the same reason that Aerys II wasn't Jaehaerys the Conciliator. They would simply have to be a different person altogether.

Since you've brought up The Skin Trade, there is a point made the last male heir of the pureblood werewolf lineage is in fact unable to transform, for reasons unknown.* I think something similar might have been going on with Viserys.

*(I remember reading about the contents of some interview, in which GRRM allegedly said that one of his original ideas for the Targaryens had been that they were able to transform into dragons, but lost the ability during the second half of their reign - the problem is I've never found the SSM, so I'm not sure if it was not a hoax, but based on The Skin Trade, it sounds like something he might have considered.)

Quote

It would make Dany a more real woman. Whether it is pleasant for a woman to read about things women really don't like all that much isn't for me to say. But I'd prefer realism in the depiction of the female body - and the issues women have with that - to male fantasy.

I'd prefer if he just skipped descriptions of snot, ass-wiping, menstruation, sweaty armpits etc. altogether if it's not relevant to the plot. I like to eat while I read.

Quote

From what I hear it can be rather painful. My girlfriend still has to take quite a few painkillers each time. And considering that the first time can hit you completely unexpected and unprepared it can be pretty unpleasant.

It can be. But not always and not with the same intensity. And from what I've come to understand, menarche should be lighter than later periods. What Sansa describes seems like a truly heavy flow accompanied by strong stabby pain. If she were a real girl, I'd be afraid she's going to be anemic.

Quote

If somebody is a walking joke it is Stannis. I really got annoyed by the fact that the two women who had never met the men also came around this 'Stannis is uncomfortable around women' routine. Yes, women may recognize this eventually, but neither Asha nor Alysane should catch on that just after seeing the man or two times. He could just be irritated by man-women in armor, etc.

Doesn't Asha say that he was uncomfortable and stiff around Lady Glover as well?

From what we've seen of Stannis, it takes all of 5 minutes of knowing him to discover that he's a raging misogynist. He calls his wife "woman" to her face, he writes off Gilly as a whore immediately, he resolutely refuses to deal with Asha on the basis of her sex, and for all the fandom talk of his love for his daughter, he was very quick to dismiss her claim to throne during his negotiations with Renly in ACoK. The only woman he respects is Melisandre.

Quote

You are right there, but I think the Rhaenyra example is somewhat misguided. She got a blow by her stillbirth and by Lucerys' death, but later on the loss of Viserys and Jacaerys strengthened her, instead of tearing her down. And the final loss of Joffrey affected her isn't clear. It wouldn't have raised her spirits, but things were already pretty much lost at that point, anyway. When she returned to Dragonstone she did go there battered and beaten, but not defeated. She intended to continue the fight, and she got a much better exit than Catelyn.

Fair enough.

Quote

The first question is why would or should her nature make a difference. Does the fact that she is an evil bitch justify her being forced into marriage and being raped by her husband? After all it had nothing to do with her character. It was politics plain and simple.

As far as her upbringing is concerned she got her entitlement from being a Lannister and her marriage was dictated by Tywin. He was unequivocally the single greatest influence in her life. The festering hatred that is evident in Feast has its source and its target on Tywin, yet she dares not acknowledge it herself so it spills out against everyone else. It is also that attitude of seeing the world as existing for her benefit that allows her to see other people as lesser and to inflict harm on them when she finds them in anyway objectionable.

The way I see it, Cersei has tons of nuance. It is just that it is all dark, disturbing and discomfiting.

Well, it does not justify it, and I don't see why anyone would think so. But, the same is true the other way around; her suffering does not excuse her actions.

I guess that instead of "nuance" I should have said "redeeming qualities". It's kind of hard to distinguish dark grey, dark blue, and black hues. Ultimately it just comes down to that I'm not able to feel any empathy for her, which I probably should, since she's a major character. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

@Lord Varys

I've got to read to the one about proto-Dany, then! Is she also that petite? The way the maester in TWoIaF describes Queen Naerys (Dany's alleged look-alike), she comes across as rather inhuman-looking, If his description is not hyperbolic, that is.

'The Glass Flower' is technically a story about one of mythical figures from the Thousand Worlds cosmos, Joachim Kleronomas. But the other main character - and actually the protagonist from whose POV the story is written - is a kind of witch on a weirdo planet who orchestrates a so-called 'mind game' where you can win a new life by taking over another person's body (due to some very ancient and unknown alien technology that once arrived on that planet).

The proto-Dany is said witch - or rather, it is the body the witch has at that time, not the one in which she was born. The master of those games can be toppled and all if he or she loses the 'mind game' but as long as he or she wins he or she also can take possession of new bodies.

This body looks exactly like Daenerys - and is also described in a very sexualized and objectifying tone because the real girl came to the planet as a slave whose sole purpose it was to serve as potential price in this 'mind game'.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Anyway, GRRM keeps reusing physical descriptions. For example, Joshua York from Fevre Dream has a very Targaryen flair to him, except for his eyes, while girlfriend has dark hair and purple eyes ala Ashara Dayne (that's the only thing I remember about her aside of her high-risk pregnancy... it says it all about how interesting character she was).

Have to continue that novel. Didn't have a strong Targaryen when Joshua was first introduced, though. Took the whole thing more as the vampire thing.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I always took it for mobilization of psychical powers.

Do we really have any reason to believe Daenerys as a person - as a realistically depicted 'normal' person - had it her to thrive in that environment? The way she is depicted in the first two chapters? I honestly don't think.

The episode with the silver could indicate that she could make her peace with this new lifestyle, perhaps, and her age would (and did) allow her to adapt much better than Viserys ever could have to Dothraki culture.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Anyway, I think that Viserys wasn't "the one" for the same reason that Aerys II wasn't Jaehaerys the Conciliator. They would simply have to be a different person altogether.

There are differences there, though. Viserys and Jaehaerys weren't people 'destiny' shaped the way Dany were shaped. As far as we know they never had magical dreams, etc. shaping their desires, actions, and path. Dany is still guided by this destiny as vision-Jorah and vision-Viserys in ADwD attest.

And it is a fact of the plot that this dragon dream thing essentially made Daenerys stronger. It changed her. If this experience could change her then it could also have changed Viserys.

And we do know that those dreams can also ruin Targaryens. Daeron the Drunk couldn't cope with his dreams, and it seems that both Aerion and Aerys II were driven gradually mad by their dreams, too. And the same goes for Egg to a lesser degree.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Since you've brought up The Skin Trade, there is a point made the last male heir of the pureblood werewolf lineage is in fact unable to transform, for reasons unknown.* I think something similar might have been going on with Viserys.

*(I remember reading about the contents of some interview, in which GRRM allegedly said that one of his original ideas for the Targaryens had been that they were able to transform into dragons, but lost the ability during the second half of their reign - the problem is I've never found the SSM, so I'm not sure if it was not a hoax, but based on The Skin Trade, it sounds like something he might have considered.)

'The Skin Trade' thing is basically a more or less accurate depiction of the long-term effects of inbreeding. Namely the effect that inbreeding tends to bring forth rather pronounced traits. Some inbred offspring highlights features who may be desirable and searched for by the breeder, other offspring are complete and other failures, barely viable. That is why inbreeding is usual part of most the breeding programs animal breeders indulge.

The old inbred werewolf aristocrat is as powerful and impressive as you can possibly be - he is the equivalent of Jaehaerys I or Aegon V - but his son is a complete and other failure - he is the equivalent of an Aerys II or Rhaegel.

The half-breeds like the protagonist are pretty average and if they don't cross-bred with werewolf lines again, the 'werewolf gene' will eventually be bred out of the bloodline.

Just as the dragonrider potential most likely can be bred out of the Targaryen bloodline if they stopped practicing their incest.

But keeping 'the magic' comes with a price. And it is pretty much the same for the werewolves in 'The Skin Trade' as it is for the Targaryens in ASoIaF.

I never heard the tidbit about Targaryens being able to transform into dragons as a dropped concept, but it wouldn't surprise. It would then be even more a variation of the theme from 'The Skin Trade'. And it is not completely gone. I don't expect a Targaryen to ever transform into a dragon, but the talk of Aerion and Aerys II believing they could do that under the right conditions is still there.

And it might be that Bran learns that the very ancient Valyrian dragonlords - those who actually acquired 'the blood of the dragon' were much more 'dragon-like' for a couple of generations than was good for them. 

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

I'd prefer if he just skipped descriptions of snot, ass-wiping, menstruation, sweaty armpits etc. altogether if it's not relevant to the plot. I like to eat while I read.

Well, I don't fault you for that. But you can work things like that in the plot, too. Tywin sitting on the privy is an important plot point in ASoS...

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Doesn't Asha say that he was uncomfortable and stiff around Lady Glover as well?

Could be, I don't recall off the top of my head. I just found it somewhat lazy writing to have characters who never interacted with Stannis before go for that routine, too. Or rather - it would have been interesting to see how he is uncomfortable around women. George could have given us a an Asha chapter actually covering a proper conversation between her and Stannis where the man is unable to look her in the eyes or displaying other signs of extreme discomfort/weirdness.

Instead we just get the same platitudes that were introduced in ACoK.

2 hours ago, lojzelote said:

From what we've seen of Stannis, it takes all of 5 minutes of knowing him to discover that he's a raging misogynist. He calls his wife "woman" to her face, he writes off Gilly as a whore immediately, he resolutely refuses to deal with Asha on the basis of her sex, and for all the fandom talk of his love for his daughter, he was very quick to dismiss her claim to throne during his negotiations with Renly in ACoK. The only woman he respects is Melisandre.

That's the thing, I'd understand him being uncomfortable around Selyse. She isn't exactly a nice person. Gilly isn't dismissed as a whore, but as an abomination born of and committing incest.

Stannis never shows the slightest affection for Shireen in the books. She is his daughter and his legal heir in light of the fact that he has no male heir. That's it. They are not close, and there is no reason to believe that they ever were close. Prior to his return to Dragonstone early on in AGoT Shireen most likely only saw her father a couple of times throughout her entire life. Stannis doesn't like to be around his wife, meaning he would have only seldom visited his island, and there is no indication Selyse and Shireen were invited to court often. Perhaps for some grand feasts like Robert's tenth anniversary on the throne, the birth of the royal children, etc.

[lojzelote]

@Lord Varys

That does sound like a proto-she-Bran!

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Have to continue that novel. Didn't have a strong Targaryen when Joshua was first introduced, though. Took the whole thing more as the vampire thing.

Well, his hair are platinum to the point of looking white, he's extremely pale ("the pale king"), and he's associated with the silver color. Yeah, it's a rather vampire-like otherwordliness, but the Targaryens seem to be described in a similar manner:

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The last of Viserys’s children was his only daughter, Naerys, born in 138 AC. She had skin so pale that it seemed almost translucent, men said. She was small of frame (and made smaller by having little appetite), with very fine features, and singers wrote songs in praise of her eyes—a deep violet in hue and very large, framed by pale lashes.

In Fevre Dream there are many characters that seem like early concepts of some ASoIaF characters: the main villain is basically a Roose/Euron mashup, his human servant is similar to Ramsay, and there's another vampire lady that gives a bit Lady Dustin-like vibe.

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Do we really have any reason to believe Daenerys as a person - as a realistically depicted 'normal' person - had it her to thrive in that environment? The way she is depicted in the first two chapters? I honestly don't think.

Well, she is very scared of what is to come. But, based on her occasional recollections, it's not like if her entire previous life she were a total doormat. We know she returned Viserys' insults sometimes. Which does not mean she was going to be a great leader, but if she got a taste of power and it fed her rebellious streak... I don't think it's impossible.

Moreover, it is not like there is not a number of women in history that rose quite high, although it seemed rather unlikely at first. Think Hurrem Sultan that had been as a young girl kidnapped from her homeland and was sold as a concubine into the sultan's harem. We can only speculate about her life "before" or how much she really enjoyed her encounters with Suleyman, but she survived and got on the top. I think GRRM was going for this kind of story.

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That's the thing, I'd understand him being uncomfortable around Selyse. She isn't exactly a nice person. Gilly isn't dismissed as a whore, but as an abomination born of and committing incest.

He says that the prince, Mance's son, deserves better than "a whore's milk", and wants a new wetnurse to be found for him that would replace Gilly.