So what exactly is

[The Sunland Lord]

9 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

 

 

Good work guys/gals.  This is why I come to this forum.  First I have read this analysis of Cat, Sansa, Arya.  

You may be right about the killing of Aegon Frey as unimportant but maybe you're not.  Can you say the Hound killing the butcher boy was unimportant?  Does being handicapped make Aegon less important of a person?  What about that handicapped boy in the north called Bran?  I can debate and say Arya is a handicapped in terms of emotionally and mentally.  Arya's death will be deserving compared to Aegon's.  Aegon Frey was harmless and killing him is like killing the gentle Hodor.  

I don't think the killing of the old man selling insurance was justified.  

That's not an excuse for killing the old business man in my opinion.  

It's not an excuse, but it's certainly a cause. 

And Dareon the singer was killed for deserting the Night's watch, and he was in Braavos, wanting to live his life instead of "protecting the realm". What a crime. 

[zandru]

15 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

Does being handicapped make Aegon less important of a person?

You make a lot of unwarranted assumptions about me with this statement. Lyanna<3Rhaegar discusses and explains this much better than I can.

Ditto for your rant about the old guy committing insurance fraud. Maybe we're so accustomed to being defrauded by insurance companies now and know that none of their people will ever be punished that it's shocking that the old guy is actually KILLED, and by the very gold he prized more than his clients. (Way to be "ironic", Arya!) Or maybe some misguided worship of "businessmen", often another term for con men? Or maybe I'm just making too many unwarranted assumptions about your motives, and if so, I apologize.

[zandru]

6 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

wanting to live his life instead of "protecting the realm". What a crime. 

Well, it is a crime, given that Dareon had sworn to give his life to protecting the realm, as penance/punishment for whatever other crimes or misdemeanors he'd committed. Dareon let down Samwell and old Maester Aemon, not to mention Gilly and the young Rayder "prince." He had a job to do, traveling with them and protecting them, and he shirked it. He used the limited resources of the Night's Watch for what amounted to his own hedonism and desertion. Moreover, don't forget that capital punishment in Westeros/Essos is frequently applied, often rather swiftly.

[The Sunland Lord]

21 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, it is a crime, given that Dareon had sworn to give his life to protecting the realm, as penance/punishment for whatever other crimes or misdemeanors he'd committed. Dareon let down Samwell and old Maester Aemon, not to mention Gilly and the young Rayder "prince." He had a job to do, traveling with them and protecting them, and he shirked it. He used the limited resources of the Night's Watch for what amounted to his own hedonism and desertion. Moreover, don't forget that capital punishment in Westeros/Essos is frequently applied, often rather swiftly.

Arya didn't have a reason to kill him, nor was her duty and responsibility to execute a deserter. She killed him because she wants to kill. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

You make a lot of unwarranted assumptions about me with this statement. Lyanna<3Rhaegar discusses and explains this much better than I can.

Ditto for your rant about the old guy committing insurance fraud. Maybe we're so accustomed to being defrauded by insurance companies now and know that none of their people will ever be punished that it's shocking that the old guy is actually KILLED, and by the very gold he prized more than his clients. (Way to be "ironic", Arya!) Or maybe some misguided worship of "businessmen", often another term for con men? Or maybe I'm just making too many unwarranted assumptions about your motives, and if so, I apologize.

Absolutely. I think we all have a tendency to root for the small & weak. The underdog. Insurance fraud, likely being committed against the sick & elderly is nothing to scoff at IMO. Did he deserve death for his crime? I don't know but someone thought so & was willing to pay a very high price to get it done. 

Arya is fascinating to me. She is such a survivor & has been through so much but she hasn't emerged unscathed. It's hardened her heart & she has a very black & white sense of justice at the moment. I think her time at the HoB&W is a crossroads for her. She can leave there a even more hardened, desensitized killer or she can decide that she doesn't want to kill for the sake of killing. She doesn't want to exact vengeance for other people. I think she will stick to exacting th vengeance she set out to, whatever that says for her character. 

[zandru]

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Arya didn't have a reason to kill him, nor was her duty and responsibility to execute a deserter. She killed him because she wants to kill. 

No reason? You just cited the "duty and responsibility to execute a deserter." She knew her father would have done it. And where, in Arya's point of view, do you detect she "just wants to kill"? I think her encounter with inept, harmless Samwell Tarly and witnessing his confrontation with Dareon made Dareon's desertion more unforgiving. Dareon had abandoned his duty, but even worse, a mother and babe, an ancient man who was deathly sick, and poor bumbling Sam - all to wear fine clothing, eat fine food, buy the prettier whores. In short, to live large and have a good time. And talking to him, as Samwell tried to do, didn't work.

26 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think her time at the HoB&W is a crossroads for her.

I agree. We've seen how Arya's own sense of justice (call it vengeance, if you wish) has frequently overridden the more limited, dare I say commercial dictates of the House of Black&White. She's had to change identities after each killing, whether House-approved or freelance. Arya will, I think, come to a time when either she decides it's time to leave or the Kindly Man decides it's time to cut her loose. If the latter, it may not be by putting Arya into a nice alternate job, such as Courtesan, as he'd suggested earlier.

[Faera]

On 17/11/2017 at 6:29 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Lady Stoneheart’s/FrankenCat’s purpose? 

I mean, she’s stalking the Riverlands, hanging Freys and boys wherever the Brotherhood without Banners finds them, but is that why she was raised from the dead? To me, it seems like she’s killing at random.

 

She was raised from the dead because Harwin begged it and Beric was probably looking for an excuse to die, so he passed the flame of life to her after Thoros refused to bring her back.

From a narrative standpoint, Lady Stoneheart demonstrates the risks of bringing a person back from the dead who has been gone too long. She was rotting in a river for days after her death, which hastened her decay even more. She also suffered a psychotic breakdown moments before her throat was cut. So, not only has her corpse and soul decayed but her mind was already broken in the last few moments of her life.

All Cat knows now is that she wants to destroy anyone associated with the Red Wedding and anyone associated with known perpetrators of the Red Wedding. The Freys are an easy target because they are right there in the Riverlands and there as so many of them. She is also seeking to kill Jaime Lannister and anyone associated with him, hence why Brienne is in hot water, and probably any Bolton she can get her hands on too. So, there is a method to her madness - she's isn't killing completely at random, though her judgement is unfair.

Speaking of the Boltons, it would be interesting if she ever makes it out of the Riverlands to the North because I would love to see Roose Bolton come face to face with reanimated Cat. Especially if the infamous Hooded Man turns out to be someone like Harwin.

[zandru]

17 minutes ago, Faera said:

All Cat knows now is that she wants to destroy anyone associated with the Red Wedding and anyone associated with known perpetrators of the Red Wedding.

Plus, unCat also seems to be aware of the Hound/Arya connection. Another good reason for the Elder Brother on the Quiet Isle to keeping Sandor's presence a secret. Not to mention the fact that Sandor has no idea of where Arya may have gone. If questioned, his best guess would be "the Wall."

Good analysis, by the way!

[The Fattest Leech]

 

46 minutes ago, Faera said:

Speaking of the Boltons, it would be interesting if she ever makes it out of the Riverlands to the North because I would love to see Roose Bolton come face to face with reanimated Cat. Especially if the infamous Hooded Man turns out to be someone like Harwin.

I agree to this. 

I’m not sure that the hooded man is Harwin, but I do know the theory and I find it interesting all the same and won’t be disappointed if it turns out to be true. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, zandru said:

No reason? You just cited the "duty and responsibility to execute a deserter." She knew her father would have done it. And where, in Arya's point of view, do you detect she "just wants to kill"? I think her encounter with inept, harmless Samwell Tarly and witnessing his confrontation with Dareon made Dareon's desertion more unforgiving. Dareon had abandoned his duty, but even worse, a mother and babe, an ancient man who was deathly sick, and poor bumbling Sam - all to wear fine clothing, eat fine food, buy the prettier whores. In short, to live large and have a good time. And talking to him, as Samwell tried to do, didn't work.

Haha, thank you!  Kind of a double standard when you consider Bran was expected to administer justice to any NW's deserter he found when he came of age and was running a holdfast for his older brother.  That deserter even had a much better reason to desert than Dareon.  Dareon didn't just desert the NW but also disobeyed his orders and underminded their mission.  I believe Jon lopped off Slynt's head for such insubordination.  The whole point of bringing Bran to witness the beheading was to teach him how to handle such a heavy duty.  It's not taken lightly by Ned as he does it himself.  It's handled with quiet dignified stoicism, quick and efficient.  Bran must not flinch or look away from that duty.  Somehow when it comes to the Stark girls, stoicism is evidence of a character defect.  If anything that connection to her father administering justice is proof that the Stark identity is still very strong in her.  This weighing of the facts and all the factors before she makes a decision actually makes her a more fair judge than most.  Tough, but fair.  Even her abandonment of the Hound and refusing him "mercy" is saying she's considered everything about him, not just the Mycah incident, and come to a verdict that he can be both guilty but also not deserving of death by her hand.  She does not take the opportunity to get any personal satisfaction by stabbing him or watching him die slowly by his wounds.  I think if it was about making him suffer, she would have stayed to watch the suffering.  Actually, she tried her best to ease his suffering by treating his wounds.  All men must die, that can't be changed, but she can chose what her own role will be. 

So I thoroughly reject she will be anything like LSH who is far less discriminant and almost totally unrestrained.  This does not mean Arya needs to be totally merciful and forgiving to be different either, but that her brand of justice is fair in determining individual guilt.  

[chrisdaw]

The first thing to understand is that in the author's opinion a good leader has the capacity for mercy.

Lady Stoneheart is foremost part of Arya's arc. She personifies a consuming anger at injustice void of humanity and without the capacity for love, and is consequently merciless. She is for Arya to reject and help destroy, thus symbolically rejecting those same aspects of her own development.

In the end game Lady Stoneheart is the photo-type for Jon, particularly pertaining to Arya. Jon will return free of all warmth, loveless, and ruthlessly devoted to his cause. Only his cause will be justice rather than revenge. As Jon mercilessly destroys all resistance in his way South the question for Arya will then be is Jon a fit leader, does he retain any humanity, any love, is he capable of mercy? Or is he just another Stoneheart, and must Arya do the same to him as she did to Stoneheart.

And it all matters particularly to Arya because she is going to be the one to sit the IT in the end. These are her lessons on leadership, justice and mercy.

On the side she is the catalyst that forces Brienne into choosing between two dishonourable actions. And she is what becomes of the small folk, what they turn to and what they become in the aftermath of the crown failing in its duty to do justice, for the viewing benefit of Goldenhand the Just. Stoneheart will make Brienne more understanding of Jaime, and Jaime more determined to do justice.

[Bowen Marsh]

Arya was wrong to kill the old man.  He was not a threat to her.  That was murder.  Hardship can make people better instead of turning them evil.  Arya chose the path of evil.  I have no sympathy for Arya.

[zandru]

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The first thing to understand is that in author's opinion a good leader has the capacity for mercy.  ...

This is a really interesting sequence of possible events! It definitely seems plausible. I sort of like it (not that George RR would care about my feelings...)

10 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Arya was wrong to kill the old man.  He was not a threat to her.

So, you're choosing to privilege personal revenge over the rule of law now?

[The Commentator]

On 11/18/2017 at 5:14 PM, zandru said:

This is really perceptive! And well-phrased!

But I disagree that Arya lacks empathy or remorse. Her extra-House of Black & White assignments with the fishmonger's family and as the Blind Girl show otherwise. Her remorse was clear, back in Westeros at least, when she reviewed her kills and feared that her mother would reject her because of it. (She also felt Cat wouldn't have her, because her hair was all knotty and her fingernails dirty and broken.) But Catelyn is dead, as far as Arya knows. Everybody is dead, save Lord Commander Snow - and soon, she'll get the news of his demise as well.

It will be interesting to watch her reaction to that one. 

On 11/18/2017 at 5:27 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

Thank you.

While not all humanity is erased in her, and yes, she thinks Robb and Cat would reject her for what she did, I think she lacks remorse (in sense of missing, not erased). 

There's hardly a man she sees which doesn't contemplate kill him, hit him, or wish he was dead. It's a path of a heavily traumatized, threatened and abused kid.

 

That's not an excuse.  Arya has turned into a villain.  She killed people that had nothing to do with her family's downfall. 

Arya is like a lost youth with no soul left inside.  Joining a cult of murderers is little different from the lost youths who followed Manson. 

[The Sunland Lord]

48 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That's not an excuse.  Arya has turned into a villain.  She killed people that had nothing to do with her family's downfall. 

Arya is like a lost youth with no soul left inside.  Joining a cult of murderers is little different from the lost youths who followed Manson. 

I never said it's an excuse. But certainly is a cause. While it doesn't affect everyone in the same way, it made Arya what she is. 

And I agree, I think that she kills mostly because she wants to, what Sandor Clegane says to all killers. 

[HedgeHarp]

Robb slips into Grey Wind, then forces his way into Cat.  Compare this idea to Varamyr forcing his way into Thistle.