A Game of Souls: Beyond Fire and Blood

[hiemal]

On Alchemy and Androgynes and Ass Sex

I've blathered about grails and swords before, but I think Lightbringer could be an anti-philosopher's stone, Unholy Grail, anti-androgyne (eunuch?)- an alchemical and royal wedding of not just incest but sodomy (bet that was a Long Night). This is not a union that was meant to be, or to be fruitful, and the world is still paying the price. The male and female principles are imbalanced and antagonistic. Fire vs Ice (R'hlorr vs Night's Queen I suspect, Bloodstone Emperor vs Amethyst Empress, Rhaellor vs. Valerys). I think this can also be expressed as cyclical vs. linear time. Mystery vs. Monomyth. Time is out of joint... And thus the existence of prophecy and all the temporal problems that go along with it as the stars align for it all to start over again with (presumably) the chance to not screw it up and bone your sibling in pursuit of world domination and the power of gods (and maybe even to fix things).

 

[hiemal]

Resonant Crystal and souls:

I think Melisandre's jewel is one example of this, but let's not forget dragonglass! This line of thinking only strengthens my conviction that R'hlorr has a parallel soulnet based on the weirnet design but laid out using the planet's tectonic energy- making the world itself a "computer" with the Bloodstone Emperor the ghost in the machine.

[Lady Barbrey]

Hi HIEMAL!  I've been enjoying this thread a lot, your theories, sweetsunrays tarot cards, and the summaries and connections to Martin's prior works.

I have a question for you regarding souls in your soul magic premise, which I agree with.  Do you think when most of us think about magic in Westeros we have been too anthropocentric?  So often we talk about characters using magic, conquering it, channelling it, but wouldn't it be true to say it also uses the characters? The Children tell us everything has a soul in Westeros, even after death soul clings to bones or hanks of hair.

I was writing on another post about dragons and Targaryans.  We were trying to account for draconic traits that seemed to be inherited by the Targs.  My suspicion has always been that skinchanging was at the root of it, but Martin himself saysit's a bit different, that bond, because of the ferocious will of dragons.

So then, I thought, what if dragons can skinchange humans?  What if a dragon-inhabited human mated with another, and passed part of its soul - ferocity, the will to conquer, madness even - down to the human offspring.  And since we know soul also clings to bones, could that be related to the physical as well in the form of scaley deformed stillbirths?

It's consistent with everything we know, right down to Aerys's madness, ferocious beast-like ravaging of his wife and obsession with fire.

It brought about a bit of a paradigm shift for me, almost symbolized by sweetsunray's tarot cards.

The people of Westeros with skinchanging abilities can also be skinchanged.  It helps make sense of the Faceless Men anomaly too.  Arya not only inhabits the flesh and memories of the dead person, the deadperson's soul, clinging to its flesh, inhabits her?

How far could that be extended, do you think?  Does fire itself have a soul?  Something the Red Priest call Rhllor?  Or ice, for that matter?  When the CotF worked their magic were they giving an ice soul the ability to skinchange a human being? And did they give a fire soul the original ability to skinchange wyverns, so we got 'fire made flesh' dragons?

I dunno, this is a new idea for me but it kind of makes sense to me if we think of magic as soul -related, conduited usually by blood, but it often works both ways because everything in Westeros, including the elements, has a soul. What do you think, and how might that fit into your system?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Lovin' this thread.  

Hopefully I will have more time tomorrow for a longer post but I wanted to mention a couple things real quick...

For anyone who hasn't read my COTF Master Plan thread, I think that every weirwood has a greenseer connected to it. The relevant point to this discussion is that "fully joining the weirnet" means doing what Bloodraven did, which is basically turning into a weirwood. In this sense (if I'm right) the weirnet would be very similar to the Greeshka in A Song For Lya. A telepath/greenseer can become mentally connected/linked to the weirnet to a degree without physically connecting to it, but fully joining the collective involves basically sacrificing your body and physically transforming. In A Song For Lya, this initial mental connection is formed by ringing bells, using sound as a medium for telepathic communication. In ASOIAF, weirwood paste/shade of the evening serve a similar purpose. And by the way, weirwood paste and shade of the evening are totally the same thing .

Anyhow, to address what @ravenous reader was mentioning with Bran's end game, yeah I essentially agree with the prediction that "Bran will escape Bloodraven's hollow of hypnotic horrors and extricate himself from the krakenesque clutches of the weirnet", which is a rather hilarious phrasing btw, well done. I have previously made the very specific prediction that Bran will basically have 2 choices in the end: 1) use the weirnet to travel back in time, transfer his consciousness into his young self, and change the course of his life to never become crippled, become a knight, live out his dreams, etc... or 2) destroy the weirnet to save everyone he loves (everyone still alive anyways... Meera??) at the cost of his own life. Spoiler for relevant GRRM story below:

Spoiler

The protagonist of Under Siege faced a very similar choice, but he actually chose to fuck over everyone he knew and the woman he loved to live out his own dreams, which I think is pretty funny. I think Bran will make the opposite choice. More accurately, he has already made this choice... in the future... and we are seeing the consequences of his choice play out in this version of the timeline... if that makes sense.  

Speaking of time travel, I think time travel is super important in ASOIAF. For anyone curious (though some people here have already read it ) I have an in depth summary/explanation of GRRM's 3 time travel stories here. Warning, it is ultra spoilery for those stories.

@The Fattest Leech IDK if you are aware of this, but you are correct, ASOIAF is definitely not a Thousand Worlds story. GRRM confirmed it on his blog about 2 years ago answering a fan question. https://grrm.livejournal.com/464984.html

Quote

Asimov and Heinlein, late in life, both seemed to feel the urge to merge all of their books and stories into one huge continuity.

So far I do not feel the urge. No, Westeros is not one of the Thousand Worlds.

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

Resonant Crystal and souls:

I think Melisandre's jewel is one example of this, but let's not forget dragonglass! This line of thinking only strengthens my conviction that R'hlorr has a parallel soulnet based on the weirnet design but laid out using the planet's tectonic energy- making the world itself a "computer" with the Bloodstone Emperor the ghost in the machine.

Just to share some quick related tinfoil before I go to sleep...

I have previously speculated that there could be a "fire-net" comprised of the stars. Mostly based on 3 things: 1) The Dothraki religious belief that souls are basically absorbed into the stars. 2) It would be interesting if when Red God followers (and Targs) burn people their souls actually enter a fire-net (and dragons could be tapping into this fire-net for their power??). 3) And this is the super tinfoil part... The setting of Nightflyers is a bunch of scientist-type people on a spaceship trying to catch/research a volcryn, which is a mysterious space-traveling alien. All volcryns are traveling relatively slowly away from the center of the galaxy. One theory of how they were born in the first place is that life evolved inside of gas planets (you know, like Jupiter, Saturn, etc.), and they fought a war (and lost) against another alien race in the very beginning of the galaxy. So my tinfoil is that this other alien race was the stars of the galaxy themselves!! (in the form of a "fire-net"). Basically, I'm thinking that in GRRM's imagination, he thinks that consciousness should be able to be contained by many different mediums. A brain certainly, but also things like the Greeshka, which is some kind of crazy fungus or something, and also whisperjewels and the computer core in Nightflyers. And so mayhaps something like the galaxy itself, which is comprised of a bunch of energy-emitting stars, can act as a sort of "neural network" capable of containing consciousness... at least in GRRM's crazy imagination.

Anyways, would I buy the idea that Planetos could be a soul-containing "computer" of sorts? Absolutely yes.

OK... taking my tinfoil hat off and going to bed now  

[The Fattest Leech]

22 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Lovin' this thread.  

Hopefully I will have more time tomorrow for a longer post but I wanted to mention a couple things real quick...

I share your issue with time constraints

22 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

@The Fattest Leech IDK if you are aware of this, but you are correct, ASOIAF is definitely not a Thousand Worlds story. GRRM confirmed it on his blog about 2 years ago answering a fan question. https://grrm.livejournal.com/464984.html

 

Thank you. I can't recall if I had seen this, or had known this from another source??? I only mentioned it because often when I talk about GRRM's other work, there seems to be someone who assumes that I think ASOAIF is secretly part of 1,000 worlds. I just wanted to pre-clear my good name

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, hiemal said:

I own a copy of both of those decks, and I still didn't make the connection! Kudos and thanks! Pondering a bit, but I want to get back to this. For now, though: I've been thinking along somewhat similar lines with the philosopher's stone, lapis exillis, Holy Grails, etc but I was hung up on the eclipse angle (angel, hehe), perhaps? Exciting stuff!

I recommend taking a look at both versions of the Fool and consider Tyrion's arc. The Waite is alluded to in Lysa's Sky Cell, but the Crowley one is ever present: "wild" fire, bags of coins and flips of coin, Hugor Hill (prism on Fool's head), demon (horned Fool), wine references, and upside down cup

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Lovin' this thread.  

Hopefully I will have more time tomorrow for a longer post but I wanted to mention a couple things real quick...

For anyone who hasn't read my COTF Master Plan thread, I think that every weirwood has a greenseer connected to it. The relevant point to this discussion is that "fully joining the weirnet" means doing what Bloodraven did, which is basically turning into a weirwood. In this sense (if I'm right) the weirnet would be very similar to the Greeshka in A Song For Lya. A telepath/greenseer can become mentally connected/linked to the weirnet to a degree without physically connecting to it, but fully joining the collective involves basically sacrificing your body and physically transforming. In A Song For Lya, this initial mental connection is formed by ringing bells, using sound as a medium for telepathic communication. In ASOIAF, weirwood paste/shade of the evening serve a similar purpose. And by the way, weirwood paste and shade of the evening are totally the same thing .

The bells are used to lure people and Shkeen to their death. We have the repeat of death bells in ASOIAF all over the place- from King's Landing, to the death bells that are hung in Daenerys's hair, Patchface. I don't know that this is a one-to-one comparison in this case. This is another story where touch increases the psi-connections and it is said over and over at the end how humans crave touch. Maybe this touch is played out in ASOAIF as the raven pecking Jon and Bran's heads???

Yes, the final union is a full body and mind experience where it is said you live in love, and joy, and no darkness ever again, ever.

 

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The figure of Crowley's 'Art' is a great visual representation of GRRM's 'overwrinkling of black and white' or the 'mating of fire and ice'.  Their differences notwithstanding, their bodies being one is reminiscent of GRRM's statement via Jojen/Meera that 'the land is one.'  Particularly, I like how the icy beast, namely the white lion, is lapping at the fire, while the fiery one, the red griffon, is sipping water, each to his/her opposite, from the same cauldron.  Until you explained it, I had even thought I'd spied the archetypal trio of the wyvern and hellhound (the dragon and direwolf counterparts) flanking the central figure of the greenseer, as depicted by GRRM on the Dragonstone battlements (the wyvern and hellhound gargoyles flanking the maester) or in the 'trio from hell' loosed by Arya (Rorge and Biter flanking Jaqen...Jaqen who has red and white hair, just like the fire-and-ice dualism in the 'Art' card, or the coloring of the weirwood)...

Or how about the Griffon in the series, who's kissed by fire, but his beard is peppered with silver (quicksilver?). A silver griffin was also featured in the tourney of Joffrey's nameday. The Griffin is supposed to be white in Crowley's color scheme (he originally is in the Lovers). In Crowley's Art he has taken on the Lion's color, while the Lion took the Griffin's color. And we have two Griffons on two opposing sides: JonCon for silver-haired Aegon, allgedly of dragonlord blood (fire), and Red Ronnet for the Lannister Lions. And which Lion is turning "silver"?

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Hi HIEMAL!  I've been enjoying this thread a lot, your theories, sweetsunrays tarot cards, and the summaries and connections to Martin's prior works.

I have a question for you regarding souls in your soul magic premise, which I agree with.  Do you think when most of us think about magic in Westeros we have been too anthropocentric?  So often we talk about characters using magic, conquering it, channelling it, but wouldn't it be true to say it also uses the characters? The Children tell us everything has a soul in Westeros, even after death soul clings to bones or hanks of hair.

I was writing on another post about dragons and Targaryans.  We were trying to account for draconic traits that seemed to be inherited by the Targs.  My suspicion has always been that skinchanging was at the root of it, but Martin himself saysit's a bit different, that bond, because of the ferocious will of dragons.

So then, I thought, what if dragons can skinchange humans?  What if a dragon-inhabited human mated with another, and passed part of its soul - ferocity, the will to conquer, madness even - down to the human offspring.  And since we know soul also clings to bones, could that be related to the physical as well in the form of scaley deformed stillbirths?

It's consistent with everything we know, right down to Aerys's madness, ferocious beast-like ravaging of his wife and obsession with fire.

It brought about a bit of a paradigm shift for me, almost symbolized by sweetsunray's tarot cards.

The people of Westeros with skinchanging abilities can also be skinchanged.  It helps make sense of the Faceless Men anomaly too.  Arya not only inhabits the flesh and memories of the dead person, the deadperson's soul, clinging to its flesh, inhabits her?

How far could that be extended, do you think?  Does fire itself have a soul?  Something the Red Priest call Rhllor?  Or ice, for that matter?  When the CotF worked their magic were they giving an ice soul the ability to skinchange a human being? And did they give a fire soul the original ability to skinchange wyverns, so we got 'fire made flesh' dragons?

I dunno, this is a new idea for me but it kind of makes sense to me if we think of magic as soul -related, conduited usually by blood, but it often works both ways because everything in Westeros, including the elements, has a soul. What do you think, and how might that fit into your system?

I really like this

[hiemal]

9 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Hi HIEMAL!  I've been enjoying this thread a lot, your theories, sweetsunrays tarot cards, and the summaries and connections to Martin's prior works.

I have a question for you regarding souls in your soul magic premise, which I agree with.  Do you think when most of us think about magic in Westeros we have been too anthropocentric?  So often we talk about characters using magic, conquering it, channelling it, but wouldn't it be true to say it also uses the characters? The Children tell us everything has a soul in Westeros, even after death soul clings to bones or hanks of hair.

I was writing on another post about dragons and Targaryans.  We were trying to account for draconic traits that seemed to be inherited by the Targs.  My suspicion has always been that skinchanging was at the root of it, but Martin himself saysit's a bit different, that bond, because of the ferocious will of dragons.

So then, I thought, what if dragons can skinchange humans?  What if a dragon-inhabited human mated with another, and passed part of its soul - ferocity, the will to conquer, madness even - down to the human offspring.  And since we know soul also clings to bones, could that be related to the physical as well in the form of scaley deformed stillbirths?

It's consistent with everything we know, right down to Aerys's madness, ferocious beast-like ravaging of his wife and obsession with fire.

Howdy!

I hadn't thought about it in those terms, and I thank you for wrangling me in that direction! It's an interesting line of thought and I think we can extend it even beyond dragons- what if premonitions (dreams green, red and other) are the result of skinchanging from the non-human world? It's not hard at all to imagine a collective consciousness inhabiting the weirnet in non-linear time and reaching out to the sensitive for its own purposes. I have a tinfoil that CotF are just the mobile stage, walking fruit, of the trees. If the weirnet could do this I see no reason the other systems couldn't as well. And dragons- well, I think they play by their own rules to a great extent so I'm open to this idea.

9 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

How far could that be extended, do you think?  Does fire itself have a soul?  Something the Red Priest call Rhllor?  Or ice, for that matter?  When the CotF worked their magic were they giving an ice soul the ability to skinchange a human being? And did they give a fire soul the original ability to skinchange wyverns, so we got 'fire made flesh' dragons?

I dunno, this is a new idea for me but it kind of makes sense to me if we think of magic as soul -related, conduited usually by blood, but it often works both ways because everything in Westeros, including the elements, has a soul. What do you think, and how might that fit into your system?

Wow- some really big ideas here. I don't see any reason why not, off the top of my head. That could actually make things simpler.

[hiemal]

8 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Just to share some quick related tinfoil before I go to sleep...

I have previously speculated that there could be a "fire-net" comprised of the stars. Mostly based on 3 things: 1) The Dothraki religious belief that souls are basically absorbed into the stars. 2) It would be interesting if when Red God followers (and Targs) burn people their souls actually enter a fire-net (and dragons could be tapping into this fire-net for their power??). 3) And this is the super tinfoil part... The setting of Nightflyers is a bunch of scientist-type people on a spaceship trying to catch/research a volcryn, which is a mysterious space-traveling alien. All volcryns are traveling relatively slowly away from the center of the galaxy. One theory of how they were born in the first place is that life evolved inside of gas planets (you know, like Jupiter, Saturn, etc.), and they fought a war (and lost) against another alien race in the very beginning of the galaxy. So my tinfoil is that this other alien race was the stars of the galaxy themselves!! (in the form of a "fire-net"). Basically, I'm thinking that in GRRM's imagination, he thinks that consciousness should be able to be contained by many different mediums. A brain certainly, but also things like the Greeshka, which is some kind of crazy fungus or something, and also whisperjewels and the computer core in Nightflyers. And so mayhaps something like the galaxy itself, which is comprised of a bunch of energy-emitting stars, can act as a sort of "neural network" capable of containing consciousness... at least in GRRM's crazy imagination.

Anyways, would I buy the idea that Planetos could be a soul-containing "computer" of sorts? Absolutely yes.

OK... taking my tinfoil hat off and going to bed now  

Star-net! Awesome! That's even grander than my planetary-system-net, which tinfoils that the Great Emperors of the Dawn preserved themselves after their earthly reign by skinchanging planetary bodies- with the Amethyst Empress's attempt thwarted when a hypothetical second "moon" (or orbiting Mother Ship) is destroyed or knocked off course to become a comet. Some great tinfoil, and it only means I need to get to the library and catch up on my reading!

[hiemal]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I recommend taking a look at both versions of the Fool and consider Tyrion's arc. The Waite is alluded to in Lysa's Sky Cell, but the Crowley one is ever present: "wild" fire, bags of coins and flips of coin, Hugor Hill (prism on Fool's head), demon (horned Fool), wine references, and upside down cup

I realized last night that my Crowley deck is different, being the Ordo Templo Orientis Thoth deck designed by Crowley but painted by someone else. Regardless, I'm also focused on the Magus, the Lovers, the Sun. the Moon, the Tower, the Empress, Death (!). And let's not forget the suits themselves- coins, swords, wands, and cups! Could be a whole thread here!

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

I realized last night that my Crowley deck is different, being the Ordo Templo Orientis Thoth deck designed by Crowley but painted by someone else. Regardless, I'm also focused on the Magus, the Lovers, the Sun. the Moon, the Tower, the Empress, Death (!). And let's not forget the suits themselves- coins, swords, wands, and cups! Could be a whole thread here!

Yes, Crowley's deck was commissioned to a female artist. Her paintings are gorgeous, but the symbolism was decided on by Crowley.

Waite's Fool is aSoIaF's Florian the Fool, while Crowley's Fool is Tyrion Lannister. I have a draft written about it that I intend to publish in the ragtag band of misfits thread and theme. It's just that Varys alone requires a lot of work.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Star-net! Awesome! That's even grander than my planetary-system-net, which tinfoils that the Great Emperors of the Dawn preserved themselves after their earthly reign by skinchanging planetary bodies- with the Amethyst Empress's attempt thwarted when a hypothetical second "moon" (or orbiting Mother Ship) is destroyed or knocked off course to become a comet. Some great tinfoil, and it only means I need to get to the library and catch up on my reading!

One of the most interesting moments of the series imo is when Varamyr dies and describes his experience. Most people assume we witnessed a standard skinchanger death, but I actually think we witnessed him go into the weirnet because he died in front of a weirwood and his blood may have been absorbed into its roots. Regardless, we see that the weirnet is actively connected to everything in the forest, including worms and the other non-weirwood trees. I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that the planet itself and/or other celestial bodies could be skinchanged too.

As for the second moon, my thought has always been that someone skinchanged the comet to destroy the moon and the resulting cloud of dust caused the long night. But it would also make sense if the moon itself was skinchanged since it is a direct parallel to Nissa Nissa and her cry of anguish left a crack across the face of the moon, yadda yadda.

Alternatively, it could be that someone used more traditional telekinesis to destroy the moon with a comet. We haven't seen telekinesis explicitly in asoiaf yet, but it is certainly present in other GRRM stories.

Spoiler

My favorite example is in Nightflyers when the antagonist uses telekinesis to explode a man's head. It's hilarious. He's talking and then mid sentence he is cut off with, "Then his head exploded."

As for dragon glass, that is a super interesting topic here. Why does obsidian kill white walkers? Mayhaps the souls of someone/BSE are absorbed into the earth and "imprint" themselves onto molten obsidian, in a manner similar to whisperjewels. If Valyrian steel is created by sacrificing someone and absorbing their soul into the blade, and it does in fact kill white walkers as well, it would make a lot of sense for obsidian to contain souls. And it is these souls/soul-energy killing the white walkers. If I had to take a tinfoil guess at the specific mechanic, I think white walkers are constantly maintaining their physical form with some sort of weird telekinesis, and the soul energy disrupts their telekinetic power. And to bring it full circle back to the idea of a star-net, it may be that sunlight does something very similar.

On a related note, I also have a theory that the growth/size of dragons is based on how many people/animals they kill. Basically, they feed on souls in addition to meat. And this may explain their need to cook meat before eating it. They need to release the soul from the body by burning it?? I always thought it was odd that Balerion was the biggest dragon skull in KL. He was not the oldest dragon, yet he was the biggest. And I also never bought the explanation that later dragons were smaller because they were kept indoors. Both of these things may be explained if size is proportional to kill count. Balerion killed a lot of people in the conquest, mostly at the field of fire and Harrenhal. And then he killed a bunch more people during the reign of Maegor.

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

One of the most interesting moments of the series imo is when Varamyr dies and describes his experience. Most people assume we witnessed a standard skinchanger death, but I actually think we witnessed him go into the weirnet because he died in front of a weirwood and his blood may have been absorbed into its roots. Regardless, we see that the weirnet is actively connected to everything in the forest, including worms and the other non-weirwood trees. I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that the planet itself and/or other celestial bodies could be skinchanged too.

As for the second moon, my thought has always been that someone skinchanged the comet to destroy the moon and the resulting cloud of dust caused the long night. But it would also make sense if the moon itself was skinchanged since it is a direct parallel to Nissa Nissa and her cry of anguish left a crack across the face of the moon, yadda yadda.

Alternatively, it could be that someone used more traditional telekinesis to destroy the moon with a comet. We haven't seen telekinesis explicitly in asoiaf yet, but it is certainly present in other GRRM stories.

  Reveal hidden contents

My favorite example is in Nightflyers when the antagonist uses telekinesis to explode a man's head. It's hilarious. He's talking and then mid sentence he is cut off with, "Then his head exploded."

 

I have different tinfoils dependent on the second moon being an actual moon and on it being something else including the idea of a merging of two or more parallel worlds so that each continent is from a separate universe and a surplus moon as well as the Mother Ship/Pearl Palanquin Landing Ship of the GEotD. One is R'hlorr skinchanging the comet to destroy his sister's moon, either intentionally or in an effort to usurp her immortality. Telekinesis would fit the bill as well, and given the suit of psionic powers we've seen I certainly wouldn't consider it crazy. Oh, and the idea that the second moon was a rogue world, a wanderer from far places that wandered through the system displacing comets and seeding the world with magical detritus in the form of Oily Black Stone or weirwood seeds(hips).

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

 

As for dragon glass, that is a super interesting topic here. Why does obsidian kill white walkers? Mayhaps the souls of someone/BSE are absorbed into the earth and "imprint" themselves onto molten obsidian, in a manner similar to whisperjewels. If Valyrian steel is created by sacrificing someone and absorbing their soul into the blade, and it does in fact kill white walkers as well, it would make a lot of sense for obsidian to contain souls. And it is these souls/soul-energy killing the white walkers. If I had to take a tinfoil guess at the specific mechanic, I think white walkers are constantly maintaining their physical form with some sort of weird telekinesis, and the soul energy disrupts their telekinetic power. And to bring it full circle back to the idea of a star-net, it may be that sunlight does something very similar.

I think you may be very close to the truth with this. I see the Others as Nissa-Nissa's unnatural brood, the fruit of her own "unholy grail", a synthesis of Ice and Light (opposing Flame and Shadow).

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

On a related note, I also have a theory that the growth/size of dragons is based on how many people/animals they kill. Basically, they feed on souls in addition to meat. And this may explain their need to cook meat before eating it. They need to release the soul from the body by burning it?? I always thought it was odd that Balerion was the biggest dragon skull in KL. He was not the oldest dragon, yet he was the biggest. And I also never bought the explanation that later dragons were smaller because they were kept indoors. Both of these things may be explained if size is proportional to kill count. Balerion killed a lot of people in the conquest, mostly at the field of fire and Harrenhal. And then he killed a bunch more people during the reign of Maegor.

I like this a lot.

[hiemal]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, Crowley's deck was commissioned to a female artist. Her paintings are gorgeous, but the symbolism was decided on by Crowley.

Waite's Fool is aSoIaF's Florian the Fool, while Crowley's Fool is Tyrion Lannister. I have a draft written about it that I intend to publish in the ragtag band of misfits thread and theme. It's just that Varys alone requires a lot of work.

Interesting distinction! I look forward to reading more. I also want to add the Wheel of Fortune to the list of cards to watch. I think this could relate to the Targaryen's being pinned on the Wheel of Prophecy by Dany's Dream before they relocated to Dragonstone. And the Knights and Knaves of the various suits as well. Can't wait!

[ravenous reader]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Or how about the Griffon in the series, who's kissed by fire, but his beard is peppered with silver (quicksilver?). A silver griffin was also featured in the tourney of Joffrey's nameday. The Griffin is supposed to be white in Crowley's color scheme (he originally is in the Lovers). In Crowley's Art he has taken on the Lion's color, while the Lion took the Griffin's color.

'The griffin taking on the lion's color' is somewhat reminiscent of Dany the red dragon toasty-fresh-from-the-pyre donning the hrakkar skin around her face and torso.  The white lion transforms Dany into a kind of ice dragon or white griffin apparition (to top it off, GRRM gives Viserion the white dragon the honors of functioning as a clasp...).  When Daenerys invades Westeros, that will be a curious parallel to the Others breaking through the Wall.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys I

"You will not live long should you meet Khal Pono. Nor Khal Jhaqo, nor any of the others. You must go where they do not."

Dany had named him the first of her Queensguard . . . and when Mormont's gruff counsel and the omens agreed, her course was clear. She called her people together and mounted her silver mare. Her hair had burned away in Drogo's pyre, so her handmaids garbed her in the skin of the hrakkar Drogo had slain, the white lion of the Dothraki sea. Its fearsome head made a hood to cover her naked scalp, its pelt a cloak that flowed across her shoulders and down her back. The cream-colored dragon sunk sharp black claws into the lion's mane and coiled its tail around her arm, while Ser Jorah took his accustomed place by her side.

 

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And we have two Griffons on two opposing sides: JonCon for silver-haired Aegon, allgedly of dragonlord blood (fire), and Red Ronnet for the Lannister Lions. And which Lion is turning "silver"?

Jaime!  My word for it is that he's being 'Otherized'...

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime III

"Robert's beard was black. Mine is gold."

"Gold? Or silver?" Cersei plucked a hair from beneath his chin and held it up. It was grey. "All the color is draining out of you, brother. You've become a ghost of what you were, a pale crippled thing. And so bloodless, always in white." She flicked the hair away. "I prefer you garbed in crimson and gold."

 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X

She nodded as the woods grew still around them. In the quiet she could hear them, far off yet moving closer; the tread of many horses, the rattle of swords and spears and armor, the murmur of human voices, with here a laugh, and there a curse.

Eons seemed to come and go. The sounds grew louder. She heard more laughter, a shouted command, splashing as they crossed and recrossed the little stream. A horse snorted. A man swore. And then at last she saw him … only for an instant, framed between the branches of the trees as she looked down at the valley floor, yet she knew it was him. Even at a distance, Ser Jaime Lannister was unmistakable. The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black. He was not wearing a helm.

He was there and he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees once more. Others came behind him, long columns of them, knights and sworn swords and freeriders, three quarters of the Lannister horse.

 

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, Crowley's deck was commissioned to a female artist. Her paintings are gorgeous, but the symbolism was decided on by Crowley.

Waite's Fool is aSoIaF's Florian the Fool, while Crowley's Fool is Tyrion Lannister. I have a draft written about it that I intend to publish in the ragtag band of misfits thread and theme. It's just that Varys alone requires a lot of work.

The Tarot/alchemy topic is a great idea.

Bran as the Hanged Man, hanging upside down like the traditional posture on the eponymous Tarot card, and the crucifixion of St Peter, the first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church and presider over the Holy Roman See ('sea'?):

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Bran sat astride the gargoyle, tightened his legs around it, and swung himself around, upside down. He hung by his legs and slowly stretched his head down toward the window. The world looked strange upside down. A courtyard swam dizzily below him, its stones still wet with melted snow.

Bran looked in the window.

AGOT -- Bran II

 

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Everything turned inside out and upside down, and Bran found himself back inside his own skin, half-buried in the snow. The burning wight loomed over him, etched tall against the trees in their snowy shrouds. It was one of the naked ones, Bran saw, in the instant before the nearest tree shook off the snow that covered it and dropped it all down upon his head.

The next he knew, he was lying on a bed of pine needles beneath a dark stone roof. The cave. I'm in the cave. His mouth still tasted of blood where he'd bitten his tongue, but a fire was burning to his right, the heat washing over his face, and he had never felt anything so good. Summer was there, sniffing round him, and Hodor, soaking wet. Meera cradled Jojen's head in her lap. And the Arya thing stood over them, clutching her torch.

ADWD -- Bran II

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. Summer dug up a severed arm, black and covered with hoarfrost, its fingers opening and closing as it pulled itself across the frozen snow. There was still enough meat on it to fill his empty belly, and after that was done he cracked the arm bones for the marrow. Only then did the arm remember it was dead.

Bran ate with Summer and his pack, as a wolf. As a raven he flew with the murder, circling the hill at sunset, watching for foes, feeling the icy touch of the air. As Hodor he explored the caves. He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling. He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. 

 

4 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

someone skinchanged the comet to destroy the moon and the resulting cloud of dust caused the long night.

He did it using 'the song of stones' -- according to the alchemical dictum, 'as above, so below...':

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Dawn Age

Their song and music was said to be as beautiful as they were, but what they sang of is not remembered save in small fragments handed down from ancient days. Maester Childer's Winter's Kings, or the Legends and Lineages of the Starks of Winterfell contains a part of a ballad alleged to tell of the time Brandon the Builder sought the aid of the children while raising the Wall. He was taken to a secret place to meet with them, but could not at first understand their speech, which was described as sounding like the song of stones in a brook, or the wind through leaves, or the rain upon the water. The manner in which Brandon learned to comprehend the speech of the children is a tale in itself, and not worth repeating here. But it seems clear that their speech originated, or drew inspiration from, the sounds they heard every day.

 

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A Storm of Swords - Bran I

The ridge slanted sharply from the earth, a long fold of stone and soil shaped like a claw. Trees clung to its lower slopes, pines and hawthorn and ash, but higher up the ground was bare, the ridgeline stark against the cloudy sky.

He could feel the high stone calling him. Up he went, loping easy at first, then faster and higher, his strong legs eating up the incline. Birds burst from the branches overhead as he raced by, clawing and flapping their way into the sky. He could hear the wind sighing up amongst the leaves, the squirrels chittering to one another, even the sound a pinecone made as it tumbled to the forest floor. The smells were a song around him, a song that filled the good green world.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

@sweetsunray Is Bran also associated with 'The Tower' Tarot card, and what would be the significance?

[hiemal]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

He did it using 'the song of stones' -- according to the alchemical dictum, 'as above, so below...':

Or the luciferian inversion, "as below, so above..."

 

[hiemal]

On Soul Cycles:

I'm going to briefly break down what I believe some of the various magical, soul-based systems are.

1. The weirnet. I believe this was probably the original. The weirwood trees are the foundation, or roots, that provide the tangible network through which souls flow. Ravens and possibly bats function as psychopomps. Some of those who have bought into this system by blood sacrifice to the weirwood somethimes have access to this weirnet, which does not seem to exist wholly in linear time, and can sometimes experience visions (greendreems). Others can send part of their soul energy through network into other beings, usually animals associated with their own blood but sometimes others and even human beings. A very few (greenseers) have even more direct access and can send their energy into virtually anything living and can use the weirnet to "see" freely through the weirnet. Apparently drinking the prepared sap of weirwoods helps in this. Eventually, these few must physically fuse with the weirnet or burn out. Bran is their current champion, the Last Hero, in this Cycle of Prophecy.

2. The Drowned God. When the CotF fought the Deep Ones they sank parts of their own continent as they did when they battled the First Men. This conflict is remembered as the Nagga incident and is the origin of Battle Isle and Moat Cailin as well as the splintering of Pyke. At least one grove of weirwoods was drowned and its attendant CotF became merlings. The Deep Ones were defeated and forced from the surface, but they had their revenge on the merlings and enslaved those around the Iron Islands by poisoned the still-living weirwoods and creating the Drowned God, the Deepnet. -whew- I don't know enough to even guess at how their Soul Cycle might function or what gifts it gives, but I suspect that drinking the prepared sap of corrupted weirwoods (shade of the evening) aids in this causing bluedreams (indigodreams?). Oily Black Stone is the physical substance associated with this Cycle and it can used by those associated with this cycle although I suspect that such a practice is unwholesome and corrupting. I think the warlocks of Qarth use a similar system based around the shade of the evening-poisoned blue heart. The Drowned God's priests have some power to bring followers back from death, harder and stronger, while the Warlocks seem to be focused on personal immortality. I think Euron is the Drowned God's champion.

3. R'hlorr. The Bloodstone's Emperor apotheosis into the tectonic forces of the planet created the Firenet and enshrined him as its overriding intelligence. I think this is a corruption of the weirnet using the Black Stone he caused to be worshipped. Souls seem to use fire in various forms as foci. R'hlorr grants various gifts those bound as slaves to his will seem to have access to various powers including illusion and sometimes visons of the Firenet, reddreams, (which seems to some degree to be temporally non-linear). Those of his blood sometimes have a bond with dragons, the system's sole pyschomp.Obsidian is a physical manifestation of this cycle- fire made stone. It is antithetical to the Great Other's and it can also be used by some to tap into the Firenet by sacrificing blood. Some can also infuse fire into a corpse and recreate a semblance of life's spark. Danaerys, Azor Ahai reborn, is at least one head of his champion.

4. The Great Other, Night's Queen. My best tinfoil is that the Amethyst Empress died in Childbirth but came back as the Great Other due to magical backlash during the Lightbringer event. She became the Mother of Undeath, the first Lady Stoneheart. I doubt she needs a champion Other than herself.

Not a lot to add but that I suspect there might be some kind suspicious ice spires up north like groves of stone weirwoods made of ice. Ice dragon pyschopomps? Ice made flesh. Anyways- the Others, also Ice made Flesh, are sustained by this network. She gives them such "life" as they have and apparently the gift to pass this icy sustaing power onto others and give the dead a semblance of life. I wonder if tools created of the Ice that is also their substance would be antithetical to creatures sustained by Fire?

5. The Many-Faced God. Two tinfoils this but: the Many-Faced God is the collective consciousness of everyone who drinks from the pool at the House of Black and White and those whose faces the FM, his psychopomps(?), soak in it. Alternately he is just one face of the Moon of the Moonsingers. Regardless He grants his followers icky powers to wear faces and give the dead a semblance of life again, as suits their wearers. I suspect they also sometimes have access to visions, blackdreams. One such led Jaqen, his champion, to Arya.

6. The Seven. The Great Emperors of the Dawn ascended. I believe they are associated with the Wanderers,as I've previously tinfoiled. Sometimes they might give healing powers but I don't know of any other gifts associated with them. I do think there is a cycle here but beyond that I have nothing.

7. Mother Rhyone. Not a lot to go but some wild and nebulous tinfoil involving a cycle of expansion and return as the deadly seed of Stone propagates and Her children return home to slowly become statues and eventually stand among their fellows in stony silence at Choryane with their Shrouded Lord. My wildest tinfoil as once they fall into the rivers of their adopted Mother she further adds to their burden with gifts of sediment like the layers of a pearl so that they keep growing until some day their hands may also breach the water, like their Lord's. Why else would there a statue in the middle of the river? The bridge shows she hasn't shifted her banks that much.I suspect that this system was transplanted from the Silver Sea when it dried up, the womb/sea of the Mother becoming a menstrual stream. Apparently they had water magic, and so presumably a soul cycle but not a lot to go on.

Blood Magic operated outside these cycles, tapping and directing power and petitioning Powers directly.