Dissecting Names

[Kandrax]

Robb+Jeyne=Reyne.

Vargo Hoat sounds like War Goat

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

@The Fattest Leech - Hoping to pick your brains, if you have a minute. What would you make of this:

Baelor = Rob + Lea

Would a person named Baelor represent a kind of ideal leader, with qualities of both of GRRM's go-to, central characters?

I've read only a couple of GRRM's non-ASOIAF stories, but "ideal" doesn't quite sound right, if this combination is deliberate. Maybe he is showing that the qualities of a Rob character and the qualities of a Lea character just cannot coexist in one body?

I think we've had only two full-on Baelors: Baelor the Blessed and Baelor Breakspear. One carries on like a bit of a nut (from the perspective of his courtiers) but is beloved by the small folk; the other dies tragically before he can ascend to the throne.

And I don't know how this would fit with the Bael, Baelish, Baelon, Balon and other Baelor-related names.

Just curious if anything strikes you.

Balor in Celtic myth

Quote

was king of the Fomorians, a group of supernatural beings. He is often described as a giant with a large eye in his forehead that wreaks destruction when opened. He has been interpreted as a god or personification of drought and blight.

It is suggested that Balor comes from Common Celtic *Baleros, meaning "the deadly one", cognate with Old Irish at-baill (dies) and Welsh ball (death, plague).[1]

He is also referred to as Balor Béimnech (Balor the smiter), Balor Balcbéimnech (Balor the strong smiter) and Balor Birugderc (Balor of the piercing eye).[1] The latter has led to the English name Balor of the Evil Eye.

The Fomorians are very similar to the Iron Born, so Balor is Euron, with the evil eye that wreaks destruction when opened.

[Seams]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hmm, interesting. Allow me little time to finish feeding everyone, and I’ll get back to you with more. I can’t think of any “Baelor” type names off the top of my head except something similar for an antagonist priest... but I need to look it up. Baldur is used for a planet name, but that comes straight from Norse myth. GRRM does use the name Aaron Grey in another story, and I say that thinking of Baelon. Just a cursory glance at your Bael list of names makes me think they are all “mad” or are liars and antagonist when you get down to to it.

Except Baelor Breakspear, respected crown prince and Hand of the King in The Hedge Knight, doesn't seem mad. He does seem sad, though. I think he knows a prophecy or has a premonition about his own fate.

Maybe the other Bael- names are not necessarily linked to Baelor. Maybe it's just the way that GRRM uses syllables over again to show a family relationship or other parallel between characters. I suspect there's a method behind it, though.

But it was your background on the Rob + Lea question that I hoped to tap. I know GRRM uses those names or variations on those names for central characters in his stories. I thought that might tell us that Baelor is an important name but, in what way it is important, I'm not sure.

30 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Balor in Celtic myth

The Fomorians are very similar to the Iron Born, so Balor is Euron, with the evil eye that wreaks destruction when opened.

This is very helpful. Thank you. The Iron Born connection may be one layer of meaning, but the "ball" link is very relevant to my current focus on the Dunk & Egg stories, with the Glendon Flowers / Quentyn Ball / Fireball character. This could help to make sense of why that seemingly minor character is given such a central role in The Mystery Knight.

One thing always leads to another.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, Seams said:

Except Baelor Breakspear, respected crown prince and Hand of the King in The Hedge Knight, doesn't seem mad. He does seem sad, though. I think he knows a prophecy or has a premonition about his own fate.

Maybe the other Bael- names are not necessarily linked to Baelor. Maybe it's just the way that GRRM uses syllables over again to show a family relationship or other parallel between characters. I suspect there's a method behind it, though.

This is very helpful. Thank you. The Iron Born connection may be one layer of meaning, but the "ball" link is very relevant to my current focus on the Dunk & Egg stories, with the Glendon Flowers / Quentyn Ball / Fireball character. This could help to make sense of why that seemingly minor character is given such a central role in The Mystery Knight.

One thing always leads to another.

I’m still searching the books between cups o’coffee, and I am nope noticing that GRRM uses the pet word “baleful” quite a bit. Just a small Wow! I never noticed that before. 

[The Fattest Leech]

15 minutes ago, Seams said:

Except Baelor Breakspear, respected crown prince and Hand of the King in The Hedge Knight, doesn't seem mad. He does seem sad, though. I think he knows a prophecy or has a premonition about his own fate.

Maybe the other Bael- names are not necessarily linked to Baelor. Maybe it's just the way that GRRM uses syllables over again to show a family relationship or other parallel between characters. I suspect there's a method behind it, though.

This is very helpful. Thank you. The Iron Born connection may be one layer of meaning, but the "ball" link is very relevant to my current focus on the Dunk & Egg stories, with the Glendon Flowers / Quentyn Ball / Fireball character. This could help to make sense of why that seemingly minor character is given such a central role in The Mystery Knight.

One thing always leads to another.

Just a random thought as to Baelor Breakspear, and one I would want to look in to with the other Baleful characters, but doesn’t Breakspear die by mistake in place of his brother? Oh wait, no, I have that wrong, Breakspear is killed by his brother, a twist on Euron and Balon and the bridge thingy. Still would need to check the others to see if t fits. 

[The Fattest Leech]

23 minutes ago, Seams said:

Except Baelor Breakspear, respected crown prince and Hand of the King in The Hedge Knight, doesn't seem mad. He does seem sad, though. I think he knows a prophecy or has a premonition about his own fate.

Maybe the other Bael- names are not necessarily linked to Baelor. Maybe it's just the way that GRRM uses syllables over again to show a family relationship or other parallel between characters. I suspect there's a method behind it, though.

This is very helpful. Thank you. The Iron Born connection may be one layer of meaning, but the "ball" link is very relevant to my current focus on the Dunk & Egg stories, with the Glendon Flowers / Quentyn Ball / Fireball character. This could help to make sense of why that seemingly minor character is given such a central role in The Mystery Knight.

One thing always leads to another.

And another random thought, and just speculating, but if the baleful names are in anyway related to brother death, Cat thinks of Petyr Baelish as her brother (don’t have the quote handy) which maybe could point to either LSH or, my preference, Cat’s daughters acting together in her name to finish Baleish off. 

[The Fattest Leech]

@Seams I’m having to switch to listening to find the name I am thinking of, however, that may be a minor clue to this bigger Bael/Bal play that I have been thinking on... and it is interesting, and it probably involves the Balon and another name and fives hint at the future plot.  

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Someone might have posted this already...

but the Bael - Ba(e)lor connection... stealing into the fortress to have a kid with the princess.

and Harren (Ironborn) - God’s Eye connection... note the hot fire flames end of the Fomorian/Ironborn army.

can find parallels in this myth... synopsis for Wikipedia:

Spoiler

 

Balor hears a prophecy that he would be killed by his grandson. To avoid his fate, he locks his only daughter, Ethniu, in a tower on Tory Islandto keep her from becoming pregnant. One day, Balor steals a magical cow of abundance, the Glas Gaibhnenn, from Goibniu the smith. He takes it to his fortress on Tory Island. Cian, who was guarding the cow for Goibniu, sets out to get it back. With the help of the druidess Birógand the sea god Manannán, Cian enters the tower and finds Ethniu. They have sex, and she gives birth to three sons. Balor attempts to drown the boys in the sea, but one is saved and is raised as a foster-son by Manannán. He grows up to become Lugh.

Lugh eventually becomes king of the Tuatha Dé Danann. He leads the Tuath Dé in the second Battle of Mag Tuired against the Fomorians, who are led by Balor. Ogma disarms Balor during this battle, but Balor kills Nuada with his eye. Lugh kills Balor by casting a sling, or a spear crafted by Goibniu, through his eye. Balor's eye destroys the Fomorian army. Lugh then beheads Balor.

One legend tells that, when Balor was slain by Lugh, Balor's eye was still open when he fell face first into the ground. Thus his deadly eye beam burned a hole into the earth. Long after, the hole filled with water and became a lake which is now known as Loch na Súil, or "Lake of the Eye", in County Sligo.

 

[Seams]

I was thinking about the Baelor allusion as I walked the dogs and I think this Fomorian / Tuatha De conflict is the key.

The two Baelors in our stories - Breakspear and The Blessed - are trying to make peace or end the conflict between the people who worship the old gods (First Men) and the Andals. Except instead of engaging in battle, the story tells us that Baelor Breakspear willingly jousted with Ser Arlan of Pennytree (Pennytree is an entrance to the Otherworld, where the fair folk live) and the two men shattered four or seven lances before Baelor won - an honorable outcome that left both men feeling respect for each other.

Baelor the Blessed went out of his way to make peace with Dorne - returning hostages, showing humility in his travels to and from Sunspear, arranging a marriage between a Targaryen prince and a Dornish princess. He put his life at risk rescuing his brother from a cage suspended over vipers. (Look at Jaime's description of the roots of the Pennytree - it's like a nest of snakes under his feet.)

There is a lot to decode in the Dunk & Egg stories but I'm going to add some thoughts to the re-read thread about the Bloodraven - Bittersteel - Sheira Seastar triangle today. I think that triangle is repeating in different ways over and over again throughout the novels. Sometimes with siblings, sometimes with lovers, sometimes with people who have intense bonds. It seems likely it is modeled on the Balor - Ethniu - Cian (and Lugh) story just provided by @LiveFirstDieLater, so thank you for that. I had read that wikipedia summary a few years ago for another book I was analyzing but I forgot a lot of it. I think this could help explain a lot of character relationships and give us some hints about foreshadowing.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hmm, interesting. Allow me little time to finish feeding everyone, and I’ll get back to you with more. I can’t think of any “Baelor” type names off the top of my head except something similar for an antagonist priest... but I need to look it up. Baldur is used for a planet name, but that comes straight from Norse myth. GRRM does use the name Aaron Grey in another story, and I say that thinking of Baelon. Just a cursory glance at your Bael list of names makes me think they are all “mad” or are liars and antagonist when you get down to to it. 

 

Those damned smallfolk. Always with their hands out and mouths open. 

[Corvo the Crow]

Bael is a fruit, and guess what kind of fruit it is? Citrus! If I recall correctly, those who drink lemon water get bitter endings, right?

Bael and his son both got bitter endings. 

Bael is also called a bel. So Abel  is A Bel. Nice word play I guess.

 

Ba'al/Be'lu/Ba'lu/... is a god of fertility, seasons, weather and war among other things.

Brandon the daughterless had no sons for heirs and a single daughter so Bael solved his problem for him. Fertility god at work.

 

Abel is also a shepherd and the first human to die, killed by his brother Cain, a farmer and the first human to be born. They are sons of Adam and Eve.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Bael is a fruit, and guess what kind of fruit it is? Citrus! If I recall correctly, those who drink lemon water get bitter endings, right?

Bael and his son both got bitter endings. 

Bael is also called a bel. So Abel  is A Bel. Nice word play I guess.

 

Ba'al/Be'lu/Ba'lu/... is a god of fertility, seasons, weather and war among other things.

Brandon the daughterless had no sons for heirs and a single daughter so Bael solved his problem for him. Fertility god at work.

 

Abel is also a shepherd and the first human to die, killed by his brother Cain, a farmer and the first human to be born. They are sons of Adam and Eve.

Why, yes! They do. 

[Seams]

Why does GRRM give us several examples of two people with the same first name going head-to-head against each other? 

For the rest of the morning and well into the afternoon, it was more of the same, as challengers took the field in twos and threes, and sometimes five together. Trumpets blew, the heralds called out names, warhorses charged, the crowd cheered, lances snapped like twigs, and swords rang against helms and mail. It was, smallfolk and high lord alike agreed, a splendid day of jousting. Ser Humfrey Hardyng and Ser Humfrey Beesbury, a bold young knight in yellow and black stripes with three beehives on his shield, splintered no less than a dozen lances apiece in an epic struggle the smallfolk soon began calling "the Battle of Humfrey." 

(The Hedge Knight)

Lord Mace Tyrell and his entourage had been housed behind the royal sept, in the long slate-roofed keep that had been called the Maidenvault since King Baelor the Blessed had confined his sisters therein, so the sight of them might not tempt him into carnal thoughts. Outside its tall carved doors stood two guards in gilded halfhelms and green cloaks edged in gold satin, the golden rose of Highgarden sewn on their breasts. Both were seven-footers, wide of shoulder and narrow of waist, magnificently muscled. When Sansa got close enough to see their faces, she could not tell one from the other. They had the same strong jaws, the same deep blue eyes, the same thick red mustaches. "Who are they?" she asked Ser Loras, her discomfit forgotten for a moment.

"My grandmother's personal guard," he told her. "Their mother named them Erryk and Arryk, but Grandmother can't tell them apart, so she calls them Left and Right."

Left and Right opened the doors, and Margaery Tyrell herself emerged and swept down the short flight of steps to greet them. "Lady Sansa," she called, "I'm so pleased you came. Be welcome."

(ASoS, Sansa I)

Olenna’s guards haven't gone head-to-head (yet) but they are apparently named after Arryk and Erryk Cargill, twin members of the kingsguard who were on opposite sides during the Dance of the Dragons. They killed each other when Arryk infiltrated Dragonstone on a spy mission disguised as Erryk.

. . . but Craster stood, and his axe was in his hand. The big black steel axe that Mormont had given him as a guest gift. "No," he growled. "You'll not sit. No one who calls me niggard will sleep beneath my roof nor eat at my board. Out with you, cripple. And you and you and you." He jabbed the head of the axe toward Dirk and Garth and Garth in turn. "Go sleep in the cold with empty bellies, the lot o' you, or . . ."

"Bloody bastard!" Sam heard one of the Garths curse. He never saw which one.

"Who calls me bastard?" Craster roared, sweeping platter and meat and wine cups from the table with his left hand while lifting the axe with his right.

(ASoS, Samwell II)

Referring to Garth of Oldtown and Garth of Greenaway, who are mutineers at Craster’s Keep. Garth of Oldtown is killed by Garth of Greenaway during the mutiny. A third Garth, Garth Greyfeather, remains loyal to the Night’s Watch and manages to return to Castle Black.

Edit: I wonder whether this is also related:

Quote

"Six." Reek stepped up behind him, smelling of soap, his long hair moving in the wind. "Both Starks, that bog boy and his sister, the halfwit from the stables, and your wildling woman."

Osha. He had suspected her from the moment he saw that second cup. I should have known better than to trust that one. She's as unnatural as Asha. Even their names sound alike.

(ACoK, Theon IV)

 

[Seams]

On 5/14/2018 at 9:14 AM, Seams said:

Why does GRRM give us several examples of two people with the same first name going head-to-head against each other?

It occurs to me that several of these are brothers - the Humfreys are brothers-in-law ("goodbrothers"); the Garths are brothers of the Night's Watch. So maybe Asha and Osha don't fit the pattern (or maybe there is a hidden relationship there).

Another example might be Lump and Bump - Varamyr Sixskins and his brother.

But I wondered whether this could give us insights about the Frey Melee, with each Walder wanting to knock off another Walder.

[Castellan]

On 1 May 2018 at 11:42 PM, Kandrax said:

Robb+Jeyne=Reyne.

Vargo Hoat sounds like War Goat

Vargo is wolf (Germanic) and hoat is a medieval english version of hot so his name means hot wolf. 

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Why is this thread dead? Whatever, it's for the best so now it can rise again harder and stronger.

Willamen may be coming from Villeman; village man. 

 

Of the first three villages/towns, one of them is owned by ser Darry, the blacksmith there talks about an old Ser Willum. Willum could be Willem Darry misspelled, either intentionally like it is with m'lord or mistakenly.

Though pushing it, willem could then be coming from villamen and not william which is will+helm.

willem Darry would then be villagemen Darry. The Darry brother with the village.

[essosi watch]

A couple of Latin words. Draw your own conclusions.

 

areo - to be dry, thirsty;  dried, withered

argilla - white clay 

aenus - of copper/bronze

mellarium - beehive

mellis - honey

dorcas - antelope, gazelle

daemon- demon, evil spirit

ruben - red

anguis - a serpent, snake, dragon

anguilla - an eel

rego, regere - manage, direct, rule, guide

balaena - a whale

barba - a beard, whiskers

barathrum - abyss, underworld

cissos - ivy

liana - twining vine

laena - woolen cloak 

leno - brothel keeper, pimp

obaro - plow up

otis - Otis tarda, great bustard

varix - vein

varicosus - full of dilated veins

velarium - covering (over a theater)

cohors - attendants, staff, court, retinue, bodyguard

volantis - flying, soaring

alium - genus Alium. Garlic, onion, leeks...

alius - the other.

And of course, Davos is worth to see. Like, seriously.

 

 

[essosi watch]

A couple of things I found interesting.

 

Delena cancerides - crab spider.

Genus Alister -  king parrot. 

nanus - Latin word for a dwarf. 

Ossifer means Bonebringer.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Roose is to boast, praise.

Bolton is Bolt(house, dwelling-place, mansion, hall, castle, temple”) + Tun(enclosure, homestead, town”)

So home of boasting perhaps?

[The Fattest Leech]

On 7/25/2018 at 10:28 AM, essosi watch said:

A couple of things I found interesting.

 

Delena cancerides - crab spider.

Genus Alister -  king parrot. 

Good finds, EW. I especially like the Alister meaning. Who on Planteos could our Alister be parroting???

On 7/25/2018 at 10:28 AM, essosi watch said:

nanus - Latin word for a dwarf. 

Nice. Makes sense.

On 7/25/2018 at 10:28 AM, essosi watch said:

Ossifer means Bonebringer.

 

Oh yeah. Ossifer Plumm.

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys V

"Which King Aegon?" Dany asked. "Five Aegons have ruled in Westeros." Her brother's son would have been the sixth, but the Usurper's men had dashed his head against a wall.

"Five, were there? Well, that's a confusion. I could not give you a number, my queen. This old Plumm was a lord, though, must have been a famous fellow in his day, the talk of all the land. The thing was, begging your royal pardon, he had himself a cock six foot long."

The three bells in Dany's braid tinkled when she laughed. "You mean inches, I think."

"Feet," Brown Ben said firmly. "If it was inches, who'd want to talk about it, now? Your Grace."