Dissecting Names

[Lost Melnibonean]

Any thoughts on Illyrio? 

[Faera]

On 11/12/2017 at 2:19 AM, Lady Dacey said:

That's very interesting! My mother tongue is protuguese where the word "manso" sounds a lot like Mance. Manso comes from the Latin root "manus" and it means "acusttumed with the hand". The translations would be something like docile, meek, gentle. It's used specially for dogs and wild animals. Every time you approach an animal you don't know you'd ask the owener: "is it  manso?" as a way to know if you can come close to it without being attacked. 

That's very ironic to me. Could it mean Mance Rayder is a docile raider? That he's not so wild after all? 

 

It could be ironic. I don't have any knowledge of Portuguese at all though I wonder... would the root of the "manso" be related in any way to "manus" (i.e. hand?) In which case, could it be a nod to his skills with his hands (as a swordfighter and musician) or perhaps his skill at giving advice, as it the in-world term "Hand" referring to the highest counsellor in Westeros.

On 11/12/2017 at 0:59 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Stark= "Brave one" or "Strong One"

 

Stark is an interesting word, let alone name. More aptly, the name Stark comes from an inherited Germanic word and has a fairly consistent meaning. The word "sterk " (also spelt as "stark") meaningly simply 'strong'. It made its way into the English language in Middle English (various spellings, including "starrc"), though it might also have been influenced by the Old English word "stearc " (stiff, rigid, harsh). So, while one could make the argument that "strong" could be associated with bravery, I think it is much more valid to say it refers simply to "strong, as in unyielding, unbreakable, rigid) and resolute.

Sticking with surnames, Lannister is supposed to be a nod to the Lancasters (The Red Rose) in the War of the Roses, (much like the Starks are a nod to The York "White" Rose). It means "Roman fort on the River Lune" as it is also named after a place itself, Lancaster. My best guess with "Lannister" is, first of all, the suffix agent '-ster' is relatively common in English, coming originally from the female agent in jobs (e.g. Webster (female weaver) or Baxter (female baker). Meanwhile, 'lann' is most likely related to the word 'land' -- so, it could be "user of land", perhaps relating to the Westerland's richness in minerals? However, though in my research, I found out that 'lann' is also an Irish word that can mean "scale", "lamina" or "blade".

On 12/12/2017 at 8:12 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Any thoughts on Illyrio? 

The first thing that springs to my mind is "Illyria", which was a region in the Balkans conquered by the Romans.

I did a quick look to see what the region name "Illyria" might mean in Greek, which is where the word came from. So, far only Wikitionary threw up an idea to me but feel free to take it with a pinch of salt. It makes two suggestions: possibly from the Illyrian language itself, meaning "living" or it could be related to the Albanian word, 'yll' meaning "star", with the Greek rendering being "the one that sparks". Interestingly enough, there is a word in Old English that might be related to this, 'yse ', which means 'spark' -- as in "ashes, embers". To put some tin-foil on... if you think about it that way, maybe he is like a phoenix rising from the ashes. 

Or just rubbing it in that he's nothing more than ashes... 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

It could be ironic. I don't have any knowledge of Portuguese at all though I wonder... would the root of the "manso" be related in any way to "manus" (i.e. hand?) In which case, could it be a nod to his skills with his hands (as a swordfighter and musician) or perhaps his skill at giving advice, as it the in-world term "Hand" referring to the highest counsellor in Westeros.

Stark is an interesting word, let alone name. More aptly, the name Stark comes from an inherited Germanic word and has a fairly consistent meaning. The word "sterk " (also spelt as "stark") meaningly simply 'strong'. It made its way into the English language in Middle English (various spellings, including "starrc"), though it might also have been influenced by the Old English word "stearc " (stiff, rigid, harsh). So, while one could make the argument that "strong" could be associated with bravery, I think it is much more valid to say it refers simply to "strong, as in unyielding, unbreakable, rigid) and resolute.

Sticking with surnames, Lannister is supposed to be a nod to the Lancasters (The Red Rose) in the War of the Roses, just as the Starks are a nod to the Yorks (The York "White" Rose), which means "Roman fort on the River Lune" -- as it is named after a place itself, Lancaster. My best guess with "Lannister" is, first of all, the suffix agent '-ster' is relatively common in English, coming originally from the female agent in jobs (e.g. Webster (female weaver) or Baxter (female baker). Meanwhile, 'lann' is most likely related to the word 'land' -- so, it could be "user of land", perhaps relating to the Westerland's richness in minerals? However, though in my research, I found out that 'lann' is also an Irish word that can mean "scale", "lamina" or "blade".

The first thing that springs to my mind is "Illyria", which was a region in the Balkans conquered by the Romans.

I did a quick look to see what the region name "Illyria" might mean in Greek, which is where the word came from. So, far only Wikitionary threw up an idea to me but feel free to take it with a pinch of salt. It makes two suggestions: possibly from the Illyrian language itself, meaning "living" or it could be related to the Albanian word, 'yll' meaning "star", with the Greek rendering being "the one that sparks". Interestingly enough, there is a word in Old English that might be related to this, 'yse ', which means 'spark' -- as in "ashes, embers". To put some tin-foil on... if you think about it that way, maybe he is like a phoenix rising from the ashes. 

Or just rubbing it in that he's nothing more than ashes... 

Thanks.

[Lady Dacey]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

 

On 11/12/2017 at 0:19 AM, Lady Dacey said:

That's very interesting! My mother tongue is protuguese where the word "manso" sounds a lot like Mance. Manso comes from the Latin root "manus" and it means "acusttumed with the hand". The translations would be something like docile, meek, gentle. It's used specially for dogs and wild animals. Every time you approach an animal you don't know you'd ask the owener: "is it  manso?" as a way to know if you can come close to it without being attacked. 

That's very ironic to me. Could it mean Mance Rayder is a docile raider? That he's not so wild after all? 

 

It could be ironic. I don't have any knowledge of Portuguese at all though I wonder... would the root of the "manso" be related in any way to "manus" (i.e. hand?) In which case, could it be a nod to his skills with his hands (as a swordfighter and musician) or perhaps his skill at giving advice, as it the in-world term "Hand" referring to the highest counsellor in Westeros.

 

It comes from manus (hand) indeed. I seriously doubt Martin took any inspiration from portuguese, but it is a Romance language, i.e. it comes from Latin like spanish, french and italian. So that could be the source... 

[4 Eyed Crow]

Viserion looks very similar to Vissarion, the Russified version of Bessarion (possibly meaning wooded valley in ancient Greek).

Joseph Stalin’s father was Vissarion, and also a violent, drunk cobbler. I doubt that Viserion was inspired by him.

‘Wooded valley’ would be ironic, considering that dragons breathe fire and wood is highly flammable.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 1:12 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Any thoughts on Illyrio? 

I can recall LmL found a similarity of Allyria (Dayne) to Valyria. I think Illyrio is like the male version of Allyria.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

I can recall LmL found a similarity of Allyria (Dayne) to Valyria. I think Illyrio is like the male version of Allyria.

@LmL?

[Faera]

The  "star" and "ashes" meaning linked to Illyrio would work for Allyria, too, and would be fitting with the Daynes. Admittedly, I always thought Allyria is probably just a fanciful version of Ilaria, which itself is an Italian variant of Hilary = "cheerful". The spelling might be drawing allusions to names like “Allerie” (unlucky), though.

Dayne itself seems completely Fwrapped up in allusions to stars, the sun and dawn. The family name itself, most obvious of all, it is probably simply related to "dayn"/"dayning", which essentially is a synonym of "dawn"/"daybreak". So, it makes sense that Allyria's name might simply be related to Illyrio's, relating to stars, sparks and ashes.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 12/12/2017 at 10:04 PM, Faera said:

Yorks (The York "White" Rose), which means "Roman fort on the River Lune" -- as it is named after a place itself,

I'm afraid this is wrong. York is a bastardisation of Jorvik. The Viking name for the city. Which is itself a translation of the Anglo-Saxon name of York which was Eorforwic, itself a bastardisation of the Romans name for it of Eboracum, they mistranslated it when they arrived from Germany etc. And the Roman name for it was based on the Ancient Celtic Britain's name for it which was Eborus which was an ancient British first name so it could be that the place was founded by someone of that name, or that it is named for the meaning of that name itself which is Yew tree a sacred tree to the Celts.  

Besides which the river which runs through York is the Ouse which is a celtic word and means wet water. 

Ebor is a word commonly used round here too I have in my lifetime lived in an Ebor House, on an Ebor Terrace and walked across Ebor fields. And of course Yorkshire just means Shire surrounding York.  

  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Bryn is a name in itself I saw Bryndon being discussed up thread. So if it is of interest Bryn is a welsh name meaning hill. 

[Faera]

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm afraid this is wrong. York is a bastardisation of Jorvik. The Viking name for the city. Which is itself a translation of the Anglo-Saxon name of York which was Eorforwic, itself a bastardisation of the Romans name for it of Eboracum, they mistranslated it when they arrived from Germany etc. And the Roman name for it was based on the Ancient Celtic Britain's name for it which was Eborus which was an ancient British first name so it could be that the place was founded by someone of that name, or that it is named for the meaning of that name itself which is Yew tree a sacred tree to the Celts.  

 

 

I was talking about Lancaster:

On 12/12/2017 at 10:04 PM, Faera said:

Lannister is supposed to be a nod to the Lancasters (The Red Rose) in the War of the Roses, just as the Starks are a nod to the Yorks (The York "White" Rose), which means "Roman fort on the River Lune" -- as it is named after a place itself, Lancaster.

 

Apologies if my phrasing confused you.

[Faera]

34 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Bryn is a name in itself I saw Bryndon being discussed up thread. So if it is of interest Bryn is a welsh name meaning hill. 

True. It might even be possible to connect "-den" with "dyn" ('Man' in Welsh), making "Brynden" = Hill Man. He does sort of live under a hill now. The only way it could have been more perfect is if his name prefix had meant "tree", aha! 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

35 minutes ago, Faera said:

I was talking about Lancaster:

Apologies if my phrasing confused you.

D'oh! Sorry. Yeah I totally misunderstood your phrasing. But hey we now have a fascinating break down of the meaning of the word York. Just in case anyone is interested in my local history.  

Though I find it striking that the name of the place and family which the Starks are based upon means at it's origin Yew a sacred tree. Given the fact WF is built at the site of a sacred tree.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

9 minutes ago, Faera said:

True. It might even be possible to connect "-den" with "dyn" ('Man' in Welsh), making "Brynden" = Hill Man. He does sort of live under a hill now. The only way it could have been more perfect is if his name prefix had meant "tree", aha! 

Haha, yes that was my thoughts too. My husbands family has welsh ancestry and his uncle was called Bryn. So I knew it meant hill, when we first meet Brynden living under his hill I did make the connection. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Also Val might be Vala which is another word for the Volva the pagan witches who represented Frigg/Freya and the Valkyries and travelled around making prophesy, teaming up with warlords as  kinda Odin-Frigg power couples on earth. Representing the gods and leading their communities. 

And of course if you put Val next to Dalla it does sounds rather like Valhalla. Which is the place the Valkyries escorted the fallen war hero's to. 

The Valkyries also serve mead from a special goat in Valhalla and Jon uses one eye- a myrish lens is a telescope, to spy Val milking a goat outside Mance's tent.  

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Eris is also the goddess of Chaos. And Aerys of course caused Chaos as well as discord and strife.  

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Also Val might be Vala which is another word for the Volva the pagan witches who represented Frigg/Freya and the Valkyries and travelled around making prophesy, teaming up with warlords as  kinda Odin-Frigg power couples on earth. Representing the gods and leading their communities. 

And of course if you put Val next to Dalla it does sounds rather like Valhalla. Which is the place the Valkyries escorted the fallen war hero's to. 

The Valkyries also serve mead from a special goat in Valhalla and Jon uses one eye- a myrish lens is a telescope, to spy Val milking a goat outside Mance's tent.  

 

Nice connections. Val is also the honey trap laid for Jon, the black and hairy bear.  She is the spirit-wife to beserkers.

This is a nice lead up to the Old Nan's story of the Night's King loving and chasing a (wildling) woman, making her his "queen".  A valkyrie leads the spirit of the dead to Valhalla, making her the 'corpse' queen or the one who's husband is a corpse and berserkers fear nothing.

I suspect that one of the Night's King many names was the Horned Lord, since this figures so prominently in wildling iconography.   It seems the Horned Lord is the center of the wildling sisterhood for which Val is a member and the King beyond the Wall derives his power and authority as the Horned Lord rather than the foreign concept of 'kingship'.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

51 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Nice connections. Val is also the honey trap laid for Jon, the black and hairy bear.  She is the spirit-wife to beserkers.

This is a nice lead up to the Old Nan's story of the Night's King loving and chasing a (wildling) woman, making her his "queen".  A valkyrie leads the spirit of the dead to Valhalla, making her the 'corpse' queen or the one who's husband is a corpse and berserkers fear nothing.

I suspect that one of the Night's King many names was the Horned Lord, since this figures so prominently in wildling iconography.   It seems the Horned Lord is the center of the wildling sisterhood for which Val is a member and the King beyond the Wall derives his power and authority as the Horned Lord rather than the foreign concept of 'kingship'.  

Ooh, this sounds right up my street! do you have an essay you can link me to about this idea? I'll post a link to my Woodswitches one and hopefully there will be similarities in conclusion/stuff to bounce off. 

https://theweirwoodseyes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ooh, this sounds right up my street! do you have an essay you can link me to about this idea? I'll post a link to my Woodswitches one and hopefully there will be similarities in conclusion/stuff to bounce off. 

https://theweirwoodseyes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/

I will love to read this shortly.  I do not have any essays on the subject.  @The Fattest Leech has some interesting ideas on the song "The Bear and Maiden Fair", so you could tap her to expand the horizon.  Basically, I think this is new ground for interpreting some of Old Nan's stories about the Night's King and context we're given in the current story.  I do think Martin is drawing on Old Norse concepts of time, self, and magic.

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 19/11/2017 at 10:15 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Starting with Sansa. I don't think the meaning of the name itself is important.  I think he just wanted a soft-sounding name that went with the character's personality.  George does like to play around with couples with similar sounding names.  Tyrion and Tysha, Elys and Alys, etc...  What's important is the "dor."  I linked some attributes of Sansa's story to some aspects of the Norse goddess Freya, which literally means "lady."  Not all aspects, as Arya is also linked to Freya too.  Freya possessed a falcon feather cloak that shape-shifts the wearer.  Think of Sansa in disguise and protected under the falcon of Arryn. 

 

You know about my theory that Sansa will end up with a Merlin to skinchange.  This makes me happy.