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Dissecting Names

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57 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Hodor's name is Walder.  Wald can mean "forest" "power or authority" "force or violence" 

He is often called a giant, weirwood's are called giants.  He is a stableboy, and smells of horses, Yggdrasil is “the ash tree of the horse of Yggr" and Odin says "my horse is the gallows" gallows referring to the Yggdrasil tree that he hung himself from to gain knowledge of the runes. 

Hodor is a symbolic weirwood horse-tree that Bran rides around in.

In Norse myth Hodr kills Baldor with a mistletoe arrow, mistletoe was sacred in the Druid religion. 

Sacrifice in front of a sacred tree.

Mistletoe is a parasitic plant that feeds off of the nutrients of the host tree.  It is spread from tree to tree by birds who eat the fruits and wipe the sticky seeds on tree branches (viscin-- Visenya?)  The sticky syrup by people is also used to catch birds, they smear it on a branch and the bird gets stuck in it.  The latin for mistletoe is Viscum album, "white guts"

Mistletoe is weirwood.

The binding of Loki is supper interesting as well.

he was bound for the role he played in killing Baldur... it is also the Norse explanations for earthquakes.

There are a ton of parallels one could draw...

http://thenorsegods.com/the-binding-of-loki/

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I've just found out that there are 4 types of angels, and one of them are called thrones. Suddenly, "the game of thrones" started to get another meaning. Like "the scheme of angels".
Or maybe the angels are "the game"... "a game of thones"... like the pray in the forest that is referred to as "game".
 And one more thing, is something about a wheel within a wheel with eyes on it... not sure if is one and a same thing with the thrones or it is a related thing. Ophanim or galgalim is the name of the wheel.
So, I am thinking "break the wheel" and "a thousand eyes and one" from the book... not sure how to connect the dots or if it means anything.

If anyone knows more about it, please share some light on the subject.

Thanks.

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I wonder why there are oddly placed Mors around Westeros. You get Mors Martell and his son, Mors II, then Mors Umber and nothing else.

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8 hours ago, Maria Maria said:

I've just found out that there are 4 types of angels, and one of them are called thrones. Suddenly, "the game of thrones" started to get another meaning. Like "the scheme of angels".
Or maybe the angels are "the game"... "a game of thones"... like the pray in the forest that is referred to as "game".
 And one more thing, is something about a wheel within a wheel with eyes on it... not sure if is one and a same thing with the thrones or it is a related thing. Ophanim or galgalim is the name of the wheel.
So, I am thinking "break the wheel" and "a thousand eyes and one" from the book... not sure how to connect the dots or if it means anything.

If anyone knows more about it, please share some light on the subject.

Thanks.

Show Daenerys's stated intention to break the wheel is not in the books. It's a pure construction of the show. There is no expression in the books by Daenerys to overthrow the social order in Westeros. Yes, she has freed slaves in Slavers Bay, but she has been willing, albeit reluctant, to allow slaving to continue, and there are no slaves in Westeros. 

The only thing that comes close to revolutionary idealism in the books, is Varys's evil monologue in the Epilogue to Dance, but that really bespeaks benevolent despotism. Aegon V also tried to affect reforms that would benefit the lower class, but that appeared to be more of an allusion to the struggle for power between crown and nobility in English history, and in any event, there is no hint of it in the current story. 

In the current story, all the claimants to the crown seek to win the throne by winning the support of, or cowing, enough lords, not by inspiring some popular, Bolshevik revolution. 

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33 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Show Daenerys's stated intention to break the wheel is not in the books. It's a pure construction of the show. There is no expression in the books by Daenerys to overthrow the social order in Westeros. Yes, she has freed slaves in Slavers Bay, but she has been willing, albeit reluctant, to allow slaving to continue, and there are no slaves in Westeros. 

The only thing that comes close to revolutionary idealism in the books, is Varys's evil monologue in the Epilogue to Dance, but that really bespeaks benevolent despotism. Aegon V also tried to affect reforms that would benefit the lower class, but that appeared to be more of an allusion to the struggle for power between crown and nobility in English history, and in any event, there is no hint of it in the current story. 

In the current story, all the claimants to the crown seek to win the throne by winning the support of, or cowing, enough lords, not by inspiring some popular, Bolshevik revolution. 

Especially since Dany’s seems think that all of Westeros is hers purely by right of birth, it’s so silly to hear her talk about breaking the wheel... she is the wheel.

And if there is going to be a popular uprising, it would seem Aegon has a better chance of harnessing it than she does with her dragons, army of eunuchs, and horde of barbarians.

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Live First

 

No Hodr has the names of TWO Norse brother gods.

Hodor (he was blind I think) and BALDER the dying god. Etymologically Walder and Balder are the SAME name.

Balder's wife was Nanna. So connected with Hodor you have three key Norse deites- Old Nan (Nanna), Hodr and Balder (Walder), Hodr and Balder traveled to the underworld too (caves in the north!!).  They were the son's of Odin.

Now just to confuse the whole picture you have Bran who has the personality of Balder a very sweet natured sort of perfect boy. Now the name Bran means raven and also is associated with the Welsh hero Bran the Blessed. Now he was a giant (not that Bran travels on the back of a near giant). Significantly Bran the blessed had a serious injury which left him without a body. His head was carried back home and he continued to give advice. 

I think that GRRM chose these three names with very great care and they are very relevant to the story.

 

As I have discussed before I think the 7 kingsoms represent the 7 celestial gods associated with the Norse sagas with which GRRM was very familiar (he studies it at University). There are also clear parallels in Greek and Hindu mythology.  Thus

the Arryns are the Moon (the first day of the week and the first to join the seven kingdoms), (monday, Lundi)

The Lannisters have names with Tyr in them thus they represent Tyr or Tue the God of war and Justice (Mars/Ares), (Tuesday/Mardi), Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin each show aspects of the God Tyr, including Tywin's whole role and personality.

Bloodraven is so obviously a representation of Odin that it should not be questioned by anyone, but what is unclear is whether he represents the Far North, The North or the Riverlands. I think he represents the Riverlands but a case could be made for other sites. (Odin/Wodin/ Mercury (this is a bit compicated re Roman myth). However he ALSO seems to have elements of Shiva (or at least the three eyed crow certainly does. Perhaps Odin is the servant of Shiva????????? in GRRM cosmology Anyway this is Wednesday

Robert is so obviously a Thor/Zeus figure that the Stormlands represent Thor and his family. His war hammer and his appearance, his drinking and womanising as well as being the "king" all supports the idea of Thor with his thunderbolts. Thursday/Jeudi. Now I have not as yet found any obvious Thor connections with other Storml anders eg Stannis or Renly but I suspect there are some.

The Goddess Freya (Venus) is probably the rich fertile lands of the reach BUT we have the super distraction of Walder Frey. So it is possible that it is the Riverlands and Reach combined which represent Freya. BUT remember that Freya and Frey her brother and father Njord, were captured by the Asgard (or hostages). Frey and Freya means Lords and Lady so somehow I see Ned, Robb and Sansa representing these three Gods. They were Vanir and went South  to Agard. Not a happy move.

Then there is the dreaded Saturn (Saturday) and probably the origin of the word Satan too. It is unclear just why this is Saturday but apparently experts relate it to the word Saetar meaning instigator, thus Saturday belongs to Loki.It seems to me that Theon is a very Loki like character. Sometimes good sometimes bad and tricky and receives fearful punishment. So  we have the iron Islands representing Loki.

Finally  Dorne the sun, the last say of the week and the last Kingdom to join the Iron Throne.

So who is left out currently withing the seven Kingdoms

Essentially it seems that it is only the North that is not clearly represented by Gods of Asgard, although we have the three Vanir hostages.

It seems to me that the North, which worships the Old Gods (ie the PRE NORDIC GODS) and therefore are not part of the whole southern tale. Look to the Welsh and Irish folk tales to find their associated deity.

I have mentions Bran already and the three Vanir. Arya is not a bad personification of the goddess Arianwyn. Rickon seems to be the redeeming Prince who comes back a cross the water to rule but given he possesses a wild unruly Black wolf he could be the wolf Fenrir..

Mance is probably the Moon  (welsh Manawaden). The two baby boys are the twins Dylan and Gwidion. There is something odd about Jaime too - he seems to fit the gaelic one armed god story.

Jon Snow I think is Jack Frost. He represents Winter while Bran represents Summer (with his Balder personality)

Finally Dany - she seems to be the mother goddess Danu - again linked to the Celtic tradition NOT the Asgard seven kingdoms

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Luddagain said:

Live First

 

No Hodr has the names of TWO Norse brother gods.

Hodor (he was blind I think) and BALDER the dying god. Etymologically Walder and Balder are the SAME name.

Balder's wife was Nanna. So connected with Hodor you have three key Norse deites- Old Nan (Nanna), Hodr and Balder (Walder), Hodr and Balder traveled to the underworld too (caves in the north!!).  They were the son's of Odin.

Now just to confuse the whole picture you have Bran who has the personality of Balder a very sweet natured sort of perfect boy. Now the name Bran means raven and also is associated with the Welsh hero Bran the Blessed. Now he was a giant (not that Bran travels on the back of a near giant). Significantly Bran the blessed had a serious injury which left him without a body. His head was carried back home and he continued to give advice. 

I think that GRRM chose these three names with very great care and they are very relevant to the story.

 

As I have discussed before I think the 7 kingsoms represent the 7 celestial gods associated with the Norse sagas with which GRRM was very familiar (he studies it at University). There are also clear parallels in Greek and Hindu mythology.  Thus

the Arryns are the Moon (the first day of the week and the first to join the seven kingdoms), (monday, Lundi)

The Lannisters have names with Tyr in them thus they represent Tyr or Tue the God of war and Justice (Mars/Ares), (Tuesday/Mardi), Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin each show aspects of the God Tyr, including Tywin's whole role and personality.

Bloodraven is so obviously a representation of Odin that it should not be questioned by anyone, but what is unclear is whether he represents the Far North, The North or the Riverlands. I think he represents the Riverlands but a case could be made for other sites. (Odin/Wodin/ Mercury (this is a bit compicated re Roman myth). However he ALSO seems to have elements of Shiva (or at least the three eyed crow certainly does. Perhaps Odin is the servant of Shiva????????? in GRRM cosmology Anyway this is Wednesday

Robert is so obviously a Thor/Zeus figure that the Stormlands represent Thor and his family. His war hammer and his appearance, his drinking and womanising as well as being the "king" all supports the idea of Thor with his thunderbolts. Thursday/Jeudi. Now I have not as yet found any obvious Thor connections with other Storml anders eg Stannis or Renly but I suspect there are some.

The Goddess Freya (Venus) is probably the rich fertile lands of the reach BUT we have the super distraction of Walder Frey. So it is possible that it is the Riverlands and Reach combined which represent Freya. BUT remember that Freya and Frey her brother and father Njord, were captured by the Asgard (or hostages). Frey and Freya means Lords and Lady so somehow I see Ned, Robb and Sansa representing these three Gods. They were Vanir and went South  to Agard. Not a happy move.

Then there is the dreaded Saturn (Saturday) and probably the origin of the word Satan too. It is unclear just why this is Saturday but apparently experts relate it to the word Saetar meaning instigator, thus Saturday belongs to Loki.It seems to me that Theon is a very Loki like character. Sometimes good sometimes bad and tricky and receives fearful punishment. So  we have the iron Islands representing Loki.

Finally  Dorne the sun, the last say of the week and the last Kingdom to join the Iron Throne.

So who is left out currently withing the seven Kingdoms

Essentially it seems that it is only the North that is not clearly represented by Gods of Asgard, although we have the three Vanir hostages.

It seems to me that the North, which worships the Old Gods (ie the PRE NORDIC GODS) and therefore are not part of the whole southern tale. Look to the Welsh and Irish folk tales to find their associated deity.

I have mentions Bran already and the three Vanir. Arya is not a bad personification of the goddess Arianwyn. Rickon seems to be the redeeming Prince who comes back a cross the water to rule but given he possesses a wild unruly Black wolf he could be the wolf Fenrir..

Mance is probably the Moon  (welsh Manawaden). The two baby boys are the twins Dylan and Gwidion. There is something odd about Jaime too - he seems to fit the gaelic one armed god story.

Jon Snow I think is Jack Frost. He represents Winter while Bran represents Summer (with his Balder personality)

Finally Dany - she seems to be the mother goddess Danu - again linked to the Celtic tradition NOT the Asgard seven kingdoms

I love it!

of course these are rough parallels we are talking about, but great list! I particularly like the seven kingdom days of the week!

Might I suggest these are the Andal Kingdoms, worshipers of the seven, where the vale of Arryn was settled first and Dorne joined the seven kingdoms last.

I’d throw out Mimir, god of wisdom, who went to the Vanir as part of the hostage exchange and they sent back his head... only for Odin to magic it and keep it to advise him... is Ned. Who went to king’s Landing, was beheaded, and his bones are on their way home. Bran also keeps hearing his words of wisdom in his head.

I also can’t help picturing him sitting by the cold pool in the godswood which doesn’t ripple in the wind (the well of mimir), and I hope it has some good secrets! Also, during Bran’s falling dream, the Weirwood (Bloodraven in Bran’s dream I suspect) is brooding over the pool. Odin left his eye in Mimir’s Well... Bloodraven has been watching Winterfell.

Of course the big question in my head, is there a Loki in all of this?

Despite the obvious Bloodraven-Odin parallels, I suspect his current state of being bound beneath the earth reflects a Loki side...

I don’t think Bloodraven is the three eyed crow...

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8 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

he was bound for the role he played in killing Baldur... it is also the Norse explanations for earthquakes.

 

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calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up.

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Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again."

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"Yes," Mance said. "The Horn of Winter, that Joramun once blew to wake giants from the earth."

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Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it.  Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat. . . the overgrown ruins were haunted by ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood

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Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns.

"Giants waking" are weirwoods activating which is usually accompanied by earthquakes and swallowing something, Valyria, the Arm of Dorne, Hardhome. and the Grey King's civ were all swallowed.  "quaking of the earth so violent as to swallow entire cities"  The weirwood can "eat" entire civilizations overnight.  

You get the weirwood to wake up through grisly mass human sacrifice, perhaps of children.  (based on real events, the Druids did this to stop the Roman Invasion)

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The Titan of Braavos. Old Nan had told them stories of the Titan back in Winterfell. He was a giant as tall as a mountain, and whenever Braavos stood in danger he would wake with fire in his eyes, his rocky limbs grinding and groaning as he waded out into the sea to smash the enemies. "The Braavosi feed him on the juicy pink flesh of little highborn girls,"

Whenever Braavos stood in danger the giant would awake and smash the enemies.  To the Braavosi, the giant waking is a good thing, he is their defender, he saved them from the Valyrian slavemasters.  However, the Titan of Braavos eats human children.  Also check out the Kindlifresser, "Child Eater" statue in Bern, Switzerland--which also has carved goat heads on it.  I think the Black Goat is a reference to this.

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The dark god of Qohor, the deity known as the Black Goat, demands daily blood sacrifice. Calves, bullocks, and horses are the animals most often brought before the Black Goat's altars, but on holy days condemned criminals go beneath the knives of his cowled priests, and in times of danger and crisis it is written that the high nobles of the city offer up their own children to placate the god, that he might defend the city.

This has real world parallels to the god Moloch, " Rabbinical tradition depicted Moloch as a bronze statue heated with fire into which the victims were thrown. This has been associated with reports by Greco-Roman authors on the child sacrifices in Carthage to Baal Hammon

At Whitetree Jon finds evidence of the wildlings offering burnt human sacrifices to the weirwood.

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The size did not disturb him so much as the face . . . the mouth especially, no simple carved slash, but a jagged hollow large enough to swallow a sheep.
Those are not sheep bones, though. Nor is that a sheep's skull in the ashes.

Burning people alive is a weirwood thing, not just a R'hllor thing.

 

Loki (Night's King) is imprisoned in a cave tied-down with the entrails of his son (in the weirwood net), with venom dripping on his face, the venom causes him to shake violently causing earthquakes. 

Waking the giants/sleepers is associated with the weirwoods/giants/Loki/others being woken and causing earthquakes and/or defending the realm from danger.  It is a matter of perspective, but to some the Others are the good guys.

Sam has "the horn that wakes the sleepers" or "wakes the giants"--in Norse myth the horn doesn't break the Bifrost Bridge, the fiery "son's of Muspell" riding over it does (either the Red Comet or Surt "the black" with his flaming sword--dragons), and Loki is set free, and he and the Frost Giants come south to smash their enemies. 

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18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I posted this in the fire and blood topic but got no reaction... doesn’t the cover art for the book resemble this Loki Serpent Stone?

http://thenorsegods.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/loki-serpent-stone.jpg

Yes, and also more generally it is a Triskelion  Which is an ancient aryan and Celtic symbol.  I am not sure what else it might connect to, but "triskelion" means "three-legged" and in George's other stories the spaceships usually have three legs. 

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1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

Now just to confuse the whole picture you have Bran who has the personality of Balder a very sweet natured sort of perfect boy.

I have been working under the assumption that Jon is Baldur.  Baldur means "white" "fire" "lord" "bold"  His name is Snow = white, he is Lord Commander.  "He’s loved by all the gods, goddesses, and beings of a more physical nature. So handsome, gracious, and cheerful is he that he actually gives off light."  But Jon is the opposite of cheerful, but he is handsome.

Baldur has dreams of his death, Jon has crypt dreams.  Baldur is killed by treachery, Jon is killed by treachery.  Baldur sits out most of Ragnarok in the underworld, Jon is "sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him"  

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And so the bright god lay in the grave until Ragnarok, the destruction of the cosmos at the end of the great mythical cycle, after which Baldur returned at last to the land of the living, gladdening the hearts of the creatures who filled the new world.

Baldur seems to have been regarded as the divine animating force behind the beauty of life at the peak of its strength and exuberance. His death marks the beginning of the decline into old age, night, winter, and ultimately the death and rebirth that characterize Ragnarok.

When Jon gets resurrected he is supposed to be the Last Hero that brings the Dawn.  But, the Starks are Kings of Winter and gods of death and judgment, not gods of happy endings.  As it says "his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him" sounds like he is turning into an Other.  Is Jon Snow the pale child, and the giant Stark family sword Ice which is made of dark valyrian steel is the pale child's black sword Demon-Reaver,--Jon is the Pale Child of Bakkalon--the god of death.

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2 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Hodor (he was blind I think) and BALDER the dying god. Etymologically Walder and Balder are the SAME name.

Balder's wife was Nanna. So connected with Hodor you have three key Norse deites- Old Nan (Nanna), Hodr and Balder (Walder), Hodr and Balder traveled to the underworld too (caves in the north!!).  They were the son's of Odin.

Love the whole seven days / seven kingdoms and Norse tie-in, particularly the Hodr, Balder and Nanna trio. Excellent.

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

At Whitetree Jon finds evidence of the wildlings offering burnt human sacrifices to the weirwood.

Burning people alive is a weirwood thing, not just a R'hllor thing.

And this ties in with a "dissecting names" example I wanted to throw into the discussion:

Orell and R'hllor.

Orell is the wildling skinchanger who is killed by Jon Snow. His body is thrown into a crevice so the shadow cats can crack his bones, preventing creation of another white walker.

Orell's human consciousness goes into his eagle, though, and survives there with great anger toward Jon Snow. Melisandre claims credit for slaying the eagle, which bursts into flames while flying above Stannis' army at Castle Black.

What I'm thinking is that a number of people in the story are sort of demigods - they keep coming back until both their body AND their human consciousness (spirit?) are slain. This might fit with Luddagain's idea of matching up major characters and Norse deities. I think this demigod status might match up with king's blood, which would explain why Melisandre needs king's blood to perform her strongest magic - she may be making thralls out of these demigods, forcing them to do her bidding. (Or, at least, she is eliminating foes.)

Was it necessary for Jon Snow and Melisandre to team up in order to defeat Orell? Is a mortal hero necessary to kill the body of a demigod while another demigod (sorcerer? witch?) has to kill the consciousness?

Are Orell and R'hllor a pair? Are they opposites?

This demigod thing (and I'm not set on that term - demigod - there may be a better way to describe these characters) has planted in my mind because I think the Great Bastard children of Aegon IV may have created a pantheon of semi-immortals. I know there are recent discussions in the forum about Sheira Seastar and Bloodraven, but I suspect that we have seen Bittersteel and Danelle Lothston and others, and we just don't recognize them. Aside from the Great Bastards, there are people such as Maester Aemon and Old Nan and Walder Frey who seem to go on living in the same body beyond all normal life expectancy. Other demigods may have really been slain over the years, if the right hero has teamed up with another demigod to kill both body and human consciousness.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

Orell and R'hllor.

Orel in Czech means "eagle" or "tail side of a coin"  I happen to think R'hllorism is just one side of the weirwood coin.

While we are on R'hllor, in Seven Times Never Kills Man, the sun is called the Heart of Bakkalon, the Heart of Fire, and the Steel Angels are an military expansionist cult, like R'hllorists who are obsessed with a special sword.  (In ASOIAF pulling a burning sword from a fiery heart, might mean the Red Comet appearing to come out of the sun.)  There is even a Steel Angel called Squadfather Allor  (means "altar" = "burning place").  The Steel Angels go to war against the Jaenshi who are forest-dwelling communal creatures who live at peace with nature and who worship mystical hive-minded pyramids, which are red.  One of the major themes of the story is ecological balance and the importance of culling the population to prevent collapse.

The pyramids of the Jaenshi defeat the Steel Angels by appearing to them as their god, the Pale Child.  The Steel Angels think it is a miracle and bring the pyramid back to their base--it then gets them to kill their children and themselves through mind control.  They destroy their winter food stock because they received visions that winter would not come that year.

It is implied that the Jaenshi were once humans, who were then transformed by the pyramids into something like Ewoks.  The pyramids were starting to transform the Steel Angels into Ewoks also.  Eye color is an indication that you are under the control of the pyramid.

There are many parallels to ASOIAF, I think the weirwood transformed the CoTF from humans into what they are now, and it was doing the same to the First Men.  They hated the weirwood and fought against it and the children, then adopted it as their god.  It did this through mind control and false visions.  It is sending the R'hllorists over to cull the herd.

"Steel Angels" is a poetic term for "assault spaceship," tanks are "powerwagons," which "roar" when they fire,  and they have knives called "force-knives" and "duralloy machetes" but they are never described in detail, but maybe the sword Dawn is something like duralloy.

 

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Odin's Beard

Yes Jon has some Baldur connotations BUT I think GRRM who knows his mythology has also woven into his story in addition to Norse and Welsh mythology other key Indo European core beliefs - especially the idea of the dying god and his rebirth.

Now the Baldur story is one such myth and I am inclined to think that Jon and Bran are BOTH Baldur. Jon is the dying winter component - hence the link with the name Jack Frost who was a European winter "dying God."  Another name was Jon Barleycorn. He was killed at harvest time. Bran is the rebirth Summer element. Hodor's body I think is the vehicle for this rebirth. It is of course also possible that Hodor is Jon Barleycorn hence the concept of body sharing - like a seed in a grain of corn.

The other ancient European myth (especially in England) is the idea of the Green Man who is benign and kind and lives in a tree. He is depicted in many CHURCHES.  Now Blood Raven is too mean to be this genial figure, but Bran could well be the Green Man. However there is another possibility - Sam who is I think maybe Garth Greenhand reborn - the original "Green Man."   We know Sam is a descendant of Garth.

Sam however may have another roll - that of Heimdall - the watcher on the wall with his Horn. Perhaps he is somehow both.

The other element of British mythology sprinkled through the story is that of Arthur and his sword.  Quite how I am not sure but the Daynes are connected to this myth.

 

Now given I think GRRM started by telling the story of Ragnarok (at least as far as the 7 kingdoms go  - the Andal Kingdoms, I see that most of the key deities can be found.

Thor = Robert

Thor's two sons - Gendry and Edrik

Tyr =Tywin  (jaime lost his arm like Tyr)

Odin = Bloodraven

Njord = Ned

Frey = Robb

Freya = Sansa

Baldur = Bran

Hodr = Hodor

Loki = Theon

Heimdall - Sam or Jon

Odin's two sons Vitar and Vale - Not too sure but could be anyone of many

Bragi = possibly Sam or Mance or Rhaegar - not too sure on this one. None convince me

 

Then what of the giants and evil doers who fight the gods at Ragnarok

Loki's three children

Hel - I think perhaps the Others or at least the unbridled nastiness of werewolves etc. She is yet to be fully unleashed

Fenrir = Much as I do not want it to be so, but Rickon is a good candidate.

Joramond - the dragons under Winterfell or the stone dragons on Dragon stone - recall the name for dragon is pretty much the same as that for snake. - I think this will be earthquakes etc

Sutr - fiery destroyer.  Dany and Her dragons seems to be this OR her dragons under control of an evil doer such as Euron.

 

  

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3 hours ago, Luddagain said:

Now the Baldur story is one such myth and I am inclined to think that Jon and Bran are BOTH Baldur. Jon is the dying winter component

If you are interested in Norse myth check out my other thread.  It got derailed pretty quickly, but I still have more material on the subject to add when the spirit moves me.

 

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14 hours ago, Seams said:

Oral and R'hllor.

Orell -- R'hllor...sounds like a kind of  pun/anagram? Also -- Perhaps unintentional, yet nevertheless pertinent, your 'Oral' pun! The bottomless hunger of some of the 'demigods' -- think of the burnt remains of children found in the mouth of the weirwood, or Bran and co passing through the mouth of the weirwood (Black Gate) as if they are being consumed.

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Orell is the wildling skinchanger who is killed by Jon Snow. His body is thrown into a crevice so the shadow cats can crack his bones, preventing creation of another white walker.

Orell's human consciousness goes into his eagle, though, and survives there with great anger toward Jon Snow. Melisandre claims credit for slaying the eagle, which bursts into flames while flying above Stannis' army at Castle Black.

What I'm thinking is that a number of people in the story are sort of demigods - they keep coming back until both their body AND their human consciousness (spirit?) are slain. This might fit with Luddagain's idea of matching up major characters and Norse deities. I think this demigod status might match up with king's blood, which would explain why Melisandre needs king's blood to perform her strongest magic - she may be making thralls out of these demigods, forcing them to do her bidding. (Or, at least, she is eliminating foes.)

Was it necessary for Jon Snow and Melisandre to team up in order to defeat Orell? Is a mortal hero necessary to kill the body of a demigod while another demigod (sorcerer? witch?) has to kill the consciousness?

Yes, I would agree teamwork will be necessary. Perhaps Jon doing the brawny ground- legwork, teaming up with Bran the legless doing the brainy weirnet battle on the virtual 'flying' plane (I also think this final battle will entail skinchanging a dragon). 

I prefer @Voice's theory that the magic in the Wall, not Melisandre, zapped the eagle by disrupting the skinchanger-host bond, which might be a hint that the war in the mind is fought over a third party's mind (PS @By Odin's Beard, this is how one acknowledges the posters who've inspired you, by citing sources, instead of co-opting ideas and passing them off as your own...). 

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6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

(PS @By Odin's Beard, this is how one acknowledges the posters who've inspired you, by citing sources, instead of co-opting ideas and passing them off as your own...). 

I'm not mad but curious which ideas you are referring to?

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On 4/26/2018 at 11:39 PM, Maria Maria said:

I've just found out that there are 4 types of angels, and one of them are called thrones. Suddenly, "the game of thrones" started to get another meaning. Like "the scheme of angels".
Or maybe the angels are "the game"... "a game of thones"... like the pray in the forest that is referred to as "game".
 And one more thing, is something about a wheel within a wheel with eyes on it... not sure if is one and a same thing with the thrones or it is a related thing. Ophanim or galgalim is the name of the wheel.
So, I am thinking "break the wheel" and "a thousand eyes and one" from the book... not sure how to connect the dots or if it means anything.

If anyone knows more about it, please share some light on the subject.

Thanks.

This is a really interesting question because now that I think about it I'm surprised by the lack of angelic imagery in a story that so strikingly resembles the European Middle Ages. I realize that the Faith of the seven is only superficially like the Catholic church, but now in surprised there isn't more angelic references.

I'm assuming you are referring to the idea that angels are arranged in a hierarchy of choirs: seraphim, cherubim, and thrones. The thrones would be usually shown as Angel elders.  They are about God's judgment and authority, not rulers per se. I think the phrase "Game of Thrones" is probably best understood in the usual way, though, because it fits the context best. (I am not sure, but I think the idea was developed by Thomas Aquinas drawing on Biblical sources. So some theologians would agree and promote it but others would say the Bible is a little cagey about the nature of angels.)

As for the metal wheels from Ezekiel, I think they are usually considered different from angels but somehow used by them. So a vehicle or tool of sorts. Great fodder for anyone who wants too write stories about ancient aliens, but I'm not sure I see parallels to BR. 

 

I had to look it up because I couldn't remember the 9 categories of angels from Aquinas. They are:

  • Seraphim
  • Cherubim
  • Thrones
  • Dominations
  • Virtues
  • Powers
  • Principalities
  • Archangels
  • Plain old angels

It doesn't seem to track that he would single out one, and one most people would not recognize, to be central to the naming of a book, but if you have any more ideas about how medieval scholasticism may have influenced the world in ASOIAF you should start a thread; I would follow that topic with interest even though my initial reaction is that I think it influences it very little. 

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@The Fattest Leech - Hoping to pick your brains, if you have a minute. What would you make of this:

Baelor = Rob + Lea

Would a person named Baelor represent a kind of ideal leader, with qualities of both of GRRM's go-to, central characters?

I've read only a couple of GRRM's non-ASOIAF stories, but "ideal" doesn't quite sound right, if this combination is deliberate. Maybe he is showing that the qualities of a Rob character and the qualities of a Lea character just cannot coexist in one body?

I think we've had only two full-on Baelors: Baelor the Blessed and Baelor Breakspear. One carries on like a bit of a nut (from the perspective of his courtiers) but is beloved by the small folk; the other dies tragically before he can ascend to the throne.

And I don't know how this would fit with the Bael, Baelish, Baelon, Balon and other Baelor-related names.

Just curious if anything strikes you.

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27 minutes ago, Seams said:

@The Fattest Leech - Hoping to pick your brains, if you have a minute. What would you make of this:

Baelor = Rob + Lea

Would a person named Baelor represent a kind of ideal leader, with qualities of both of GRRM's go-to, central characters?

I've read only a couple of GRRM's non-ASOIAF stories, but "ideal" doesn't quite sound right, if this combination is deliberate. Maybe he is showing that the qualities of a Rob character and the qualities of a Lea character just cannot coexist in one body?

I think we've had only two full-on Baelors: Baelor the Blessed and Baelor Breakspear. One carries on like a bit of a nut (from the perspective of his courtiers) but is beloved by the small folk; the other dies tragically before he can ascend to the throne.

And I don't know how this would fit with the Bael, Baelish, Baelon, Balon and other Baelor-related names.

Just curious if anything strikes you.

Hmm, interesting. Allow me little time to finish feeding everyone, and I’ll get back to you with more. I can’t think of any “Baelor” type names off the top of my head except something similar for an antagonist priest... but I need to look it up. Baldur is used for a planet name, but that comes straight from Norse myth. GRRM does use the name Aaron Grey in another story, and I say that thinking of Baelon. Just a cursory glance at your Bael list of names makes me think they are all “mad” or are liars and antagonist when you get down to to it. 

 

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