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Relic

NBA 2017 - 18: A Shot at Parity

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37 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

25 seems about right, give or take.  His first ten years in the league (2004-2013) were really great.  He was the best player on a championship team (2006), the second best player on another one (2012) and the third best in 2013. 

Agreed, and some of his stat lines in non-championship years were phenomenal. Then there’s the unquantifiable aspect of his career: he helped LeBron, who I think is probably the second best player ever, unlock his true potential. LeBron has said many times that Wade helped him become who he is today. People tend to forget that the Heat was still Wade’s team in the first season of the Big 3 era. In year two and beyond Wade took a step back so that LeBron could grow. That kind of selflessness is rare in professional sports and especially in basketball.

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5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

It’s crazy to look back and remember that there was a debate between who would be better, LeBron or Melo.

Equally crazy, how the hell did Detroit pass on Melo? That team could have been a juggernaut for several years.

I'd have rather had Wade.

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I don't think anybody would pick Anthony over Wade if the redraft were done today.  Likewise, Bosh.  It is almost impossible to win a championship if your best player is a middling defender*.  Hell, depending on the team, I might take David West over Melo.  Just because West is a great complementary player, and makes his teammates better, something Melo has really never done in the NBA.  In addition, no GM would be foolish enough to build a team around David West if they're trying to be a contender, something that the Nuggets and Knicks were both very unsuccessful with. 

 

* Curry 2015 is really the only player from the past 25 years that breaks this mold, and he had a trio of exceptional defenders to help him in Green, Thompson and Iggy, as well as a far superior offensive game to Melo. 

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55 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I don't think anybody would pick Anthony over Wade if the redraft were done today.  Likewise, Bosh.  It is almost impossible to win a championship if your best player is a middling defender*. 

Middling is being extraordinarily kind.

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1 hour ago, briantw said:

I'd have rather had Wade.

 

1 hour ago, Red Tiger said:

Same.

Are you talking about with the benefit of hindsight or with what we knew going into the draft? Because if it's the former I'm 100% with the two of you, but if it's the latter then no way. There was a debate at the time of the draft whether Melo was actually better than LeBron. Those guys were clearly the top two prospects and a clear cut above everyone else which is why the Darco pick was so surprising. 

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Just now, Sour Billy Tipton said:

Middling is being extraordinarily kind.

This is why I'm left wondering if Melo could have been an all time great if Detroit had taken him. Brown would have beat defensive techniques into him or else he wouldn't get to play. I guess we'll never know though. 

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2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

Are you talking about with the benefit of hindsight or with what we knew going into the draft? Because if it's the former I'm 100% with the two of you, but if it's the latter then no way. There was a debate at the time of the draft whether Melo was actually better than LeBron. Those guys were clearly the top two prospects and a clear cut above everyone else which is why the Darco pick was so surprising. 

Yeah, I am talking with the benefit of hindsight.  I was eighteen when that draft happened.  I had more important things to worry about than whether Melo or Wade was better, and it was a lock the Cavs were taking LeBron anyway so I didn't really care much about the rest of the draft.  I wasn't nearly as involved then as I am now.

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6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

Are you talking about with the benefit of hindsight or with what we knew going into the draft? Because if it's the former I'm 100% with the two of you, but if it's the latter then no way. There was a debate at the time of the draft whether Melo was actually better than LeBron. Those guys were clearly the top two prospects and a clear cut above everyone else which is why the Darco pick was so surprising. 

This.

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4 minutes ago, briantw said:

Yeah, I am talking with the benefit of hindsight.  I was eighteen when that draft happened.  I had more important things to worry about than whether Melo or Wade was better, and it was a lock the Cavs were taking LeBron anyway so I didn't really care much about the rest of the draft.  I wasn't nearly as involved then as I am now.

Funny because my experience has been the complete opposite. When I was 18 I could have told you the stats of just about every player in the NBA and NFL. Now I turn on the T.V. and am like, "He's still in the league?" 

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13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Funny because my experience has been the complete opposite. When I was 18 I could have told you the stats of just about every player in the NBA and NFL. Now I turn on the T.V. and am like, "He's still in the league?" 

To be fair, I'd say my peak involvement was probably from like 2006 until a few years ago.  The Cavs have been such a joyless, dramatic regular season team since LeBron came back that it's been hard for me to fully invest in following the NBA on a nightly basis.  That seems to be changing a bit this year, but there was a time where I watched damn near every single Cavs game in a season.  Last year, I watched maybe 10-15 regular season games.

I'm on a football kick right now, though, so I'm following the NFL a lot more closely than the NBA.  I think that's because I joined a paid dynasty league last year and it's forced me to get more involved because I want to win some fucking money.  I did an awful job in our start-up and injuries totally derailed my first season, so I've spent this entire year making moves and improving my roster.  Only six guys left from my start-up, but my team is good now.  :lol:

On the plus side, five of those six guys are starting for me (Stafford, Hopkins, Keenan Allen, Melvin Gordon, and Landon Collins) and the sixth is Josh Doctson.  Stafford is only starting because Rodgers is on IR, but still.

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17 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is why I'm left wondering if Melo could have been an all time great if Detroit had taken him. Brown would have beat defensive techniques into him or else he wouldn't get to play. I guess we'll never know though. 

It's more than likely that Larry Brown would have allowed him to take over 25 shots a night.  Molding the entire offense around him, and never expecting him to play defense because the other 4 on the court would all be atleast, above average defenders.  

He also would have allowed him to do what ever he wants...

 Because Ed Snider was finally making a profit off of a team that was always second fiddle to his beloved Flyers!  While Pat Croce and Billy King Jr. were there to only mediate the constant dysfunction the little shit brought each week.  Oh yea, he'll grow out of it, he's just a kid, never mind the fact that he's shit faced with his posse almost every night.  And he's constantly starting trouble in Atlantic City casinos, being kicked out for throwing drinks in dealers faces and what have you.  We know it's a problem that he doesn't show up for practice, but look at the heart he shows when he plays the game!  

Oh look, Larry Brown realized the team had peaked last season.  And now he's going to do what he always does, abandon his team for a better situation.  While leaving all franchise decisions to an owner who always cared more about attendance than winning, and an incompetent general manager who nearly destroyed two NBA franchises on his watch.  While a revolving door of head coaches--4 in three seasons--came and went, because no one could work with the little arrogant piece of shit that the franchise helped create.

And people have the gall to question tanking for 4 seasons!  Because a decade of mediocrity and not disrupting the status quo is somehow more dignified than the circus, that was the post Larry Brown era for Sixers basketball???

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Sorry, I'm still dealing with Larry Brown issues.  This town portrays him in absolute positivity for the 2001 Sixers.  While never criticizing him for what happened afterwards.

Edited by Sour Billy Tipton

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11 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

There was a debate at the time of the draft whether Melo was actually better than LeBron. 

There is a debate about every damned thing, because that's what the internet is for, apparently. I'm struggling to recall anyone actually saying that Melo would be better than Bron. LeBron was the most hyped draft prospect of all time. 

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16 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well there were a lot of them, but the primary one seemed to be that he was a raging alcoholic. He was went he got into the league, and it only got worse once he started to really struggle. And he had serious anger issues. Long story short he just was built mentally to be a professional athlete. He’s at peace now though. He’s a fairly successful farmer (I can’t remember what he grows though. Some type of fruit).

He was a kid who played basketball because he was 7' tall and could make money doing it, not because he loved it. That's it.

Paired with not being willing to listen to coaches and work his ass of to get a spot in the team and make a name for himself in the league, it would've been very hard for his career to go any differently.

14 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

Honestly Darko's life sounds pretty fucking sweet. A lot better than one would expect for an infamous NBA bust.

He seems to have finally grown up. He still has some issues, but it seems he's aware of that and is working on fixing them. It could be that he's faking it for the interview we're talking about, but I honestly doubt it. He does seem at peace.

He seems way different from the guy he was 10 years ago.

I'm glad for him to have the life he has now, but it's still a shame his basketball career didn't go differently. I wouldn't call him a bust, because it feels to me a bit like an insult on a personal level, but I'd definitely say he didn't live up to the potential he had.

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4 hours ago, Relic said:

There is a debate about every damned thing, because that's what the internet is for, apparently. I'm struggling to recall anyone actually saying that Melo would be better than Bron. LeBron was the most hyped draft prospect of all time. 

Most people favored LeBron, but there were a lot of people who, at the time, preferred Melo. Don't forget that he looked like a world beater at the time who had just lead Syracuse to a national championship. 

2 hours ago, baxus said:

He was a kid who played basketball because he was 7' tall and could make money doing it, not because he loved it. That's it.

Paired with not being willing to listen to coaches and work his ass of to get a spot in the team and make a name for himself in the league, it would've been very hard for his career to go any differently.

True, but even he said the alcoholism was a major problem for him at the time. 

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1 hour ago, briantw said:

Absolutely insane for a guy with the mileage that LeBron has.

It. Literally. Makes. No. Sense.

LeBron might be the first athlete to defeat father time (Brady doesn’t count, he’s living off of scheme, not skill, at this point).

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On 12/1/2017 at 5:14 PM, Tywin et al. said:

It. Literally. Makes. No. Sense.

LeBron might be the first athlete to defeat father time (Brady doesn’t count, he’s living off of scheme, not skill, at this point).

Also, for all the talk of Wade being washed heading into this year, he's looked pretty incredible leading the Cavs' second unit.  Definitely going to get some consideration for sixth man of the year if he stays healthy.  He gives this Cavs team something they have lacked the last few years, which is someone who can lead the team when LeBron is sitting.  

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So Wall missing a couple weeks has sucked. Getting embarrassed by Utah was worse. 

All of this makes the late Bradley Beal putting up 51 tonight that much sweeter. It wasn't a James Harden 51 - he only had 5 FTs - just constant shotmaking by the guy with the silkiest jumper of any current player in the NBA living or dead.

There was a period in the third quarter where it was just Beal and Dame exchanging ridiculous shot after ridiculous shot. I could watch that for hours. It's testament to how talent rich the NBA is that neither guy is a top 20 player right now. But even second tier stars are capable of putting on a show on any given night.

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