Let's talk about The VVitch

[Theda Baratheon]

I believe this film is so powerful and brilliant because varying from person to person you can view it in a number of ways. 

The Plot

1) The family are just a poor, puritanical God-fearing group of Good people who are cruelly targeted by the evil Devil/Satan because he wants to destroy all goodness. 

2) The family are poisonous and rotten, much like the land they live on and as such they destroy themselves with their own brand of toxic faith which includes rigidity, oppression, misery etc. 

3) It's both; the family are destroying themselves from the inside out which leaves them vulnerable to the external ''evils'' of the witches and the devil.

4) There is no god or devil. The family are destroying themselves because of their toxic brand of faith and wilderness is viewed as other and the enemy on their remote farmstead so the ultimate freedom for Thomasin comes when she breaks free from her rigid and evil family and joins the freedom of the wilderness. 

5) It's any combination of these elements. 

The Witches

• Evil, baby killing monsters? 
• Embodiments of the natural, elemental wilderness, free, liberating, horrifying and frightening and beautiful in equal measure 
• A way to show a happy ending for thomasin as symbols of female power and sexuality completely outside of the male gaze ? (even thomasin's brother sexualises her whereas no mortal man could sexualise the witches and if he did he would do so at his own peril. they are utterly outside the male gaze and mortal men have no hopes of touching or sexually threatening them)
• all of these things? 

Black Philip

• The Devil/Satan??? 
• A metaphor for nature and the wild and a dark saviour to thomasin ? 
• A baphomet seeming creature and a representation and parallel of evangelical christians making up this creature and accusing others of worshiping it - so the families type of view o9f what satan would be that Thomasin first views but then changes her mind on ? (The man in the background when we first see the book has one hoof - thomasin viewing satan and then one boot-clad foot showing her changing her mind and breaking free from her families shackles?) 
• all of these things? 

God Vs Devil

1. God and Devil exist in this movie; God is Good and Devil is Bad
2. God and Devil exist in this movie God is Bad and the Devil is Good 
3. God doesn't exist in this movie; only the families toxic belief in God and the Devil Does exist 
4. Neither God nor the Devil exists

 

These are still probably vague readings of this film and I'm really excited and interested in reading other peoples agreements/disagreements or similar/wildly different readings of this wonderful movie  

 

[Theda Baratheon]

Also I would be interested in how men and women viewed the ending? 

I personally viewed the ending as a happy one, albeit in a horrific way. I view the witches as frightening and grotesque but also powerful and kind of beautiful in a way and I think the soundtrack was masterful; especially the guttural chanting at the end. I've been talking with one of my male friends about it and he found it horrifying and the music creepy and scary. I found it powerful and liberating!!!

Interesting to see everyone else's interpretations or whether gender really means anything when viewing this wonderful movie  Though I suspect it does in a way as the strict familial unit in the movie could be read as as representation of rigid patriarchal (not necessarily masculine, as Black Philip is masculine but also natural) model and the witches are the ultimate affront to that - frightening, violent naked raw female power. (Not saying good or bad, just that they are opposed to each other) 

[Ramsay B.]

I love this movie. As to how I feel about the plot and everything else; I think that there is a God in this movie and when the family was kicked out of the village for the father's sins then they were essentially godless and alone at that point, and the devil is real and it is Black Phillip who comes and basically destroys their spirit and their crops and ultimately everything.

The witches are everything on your list. They're horrible monsters who grind babies up to get flying powers(which is obviously symbolic in itself) but they also represent strength and a liberating freedom, things that Thomasin would've never had if she lived her normal life and was sold away like a piece of meat as her father originally wanted to happen. 

Although I liked the ending I didn't really see it as happy because her family was just completely destroyed. I need to do a rewatch soon though, it's been a while.

From the few people I know who have seen this and reading stuff online I feel like people either love or hate this movie too. It is a slow burn and isn't everyone's cup of tea but I thought it was brilliant and glad you started a thread on this. I also had to watch it with subtitles the second time because those accents are strong.

[Theda Baratheon]

I love it too Ramsay.

Thanks for posting in this topic - I will be sure to reply later in better depth.  

I will say though that by happy - I don' really mean it was a nice ending - just that in the circumstances it was the best ending for Thomasin - her father oppressed her, her mother resented her, her brother sexualised her and her twin siblings hated her. Escaping the rigid, toxic intolerance of her family was her happy ending which is why this makes it such a good horror movie beauae that is so disturbing in the wake of so much death.

I do disagree that Black Philip destroyed their spirit - I think they did this to themselves; especially the parents who are at the most fault and this breaking down of their secure family unit because of the sins of the parents makes them vulnerable to the whisperings of black Philip but I think the breskin of spirit lies firmly with the family though external...uhhh....baby crunching forces don't help. 

[Ramsay B.]

I guess the destruction of the family kind of clouded how I felt about the ending. But overall I also saw it as a liberating event for her and was relieved she got out of that terrible environment...even if it was through a deal with the devil himself. Which then poses the question of who the antagonist really was if not the devil.

 

52 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I do disagree that Black Philip destroyed their spirit - I think they did this to themselves; 

Yes. I should've said Black Phillip helped things along.

[drawkcabi]

I really loved this movie! I think it's an instant classic of the modern horror era.

My interpretation:

In the reality of the movie, the Bible is literal, the Devil is real and evil and God is real, contradictory, and unforgiving.

Pride is the stealthiest and most insidious of sins, it was not the only sin represented but the one that instigated the family being exiled from the town and a main driver of the father who in turn led the family.

I felt that with what happened, yes the family did this mostly to themselves but their path was cleared for them by a strict God with no compassion and an aggressive manipulative devil.

I was horrified because I felt that in the reality of the movie Thomasin was maneuvered into the position she found herself in at the end that she had to bargain for her life of freedom by giving up her soul to Satan for eternity.

I also interpreted the film as being an argument against the literal interpretation of the Bible and its contradictory, often mean spirited nature.

[kairparavel]

There's a Sansa/Lysa aspect to Thomasin and her mother (who of course, is Lysa/Kate Dickie). Jealousy of youth/beauty. Equating youth/beauty with wickedness to the point of if becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

I think it's a cautionary tale of being too pious/fanatical, and that no matter what you do mere man/mortals can fall prey to the wiles of heathen/wicked people. And that can be freeing for some and damning for others. 

Beyond that, I love this movie.

[A True Kaniggit]

I like to pretend that Thomasin only went with the witches at the end in order to find and kill the one who murdered her baby brother. 

[Theda Baratheon]

6 hours ago, kairparavel said:

There's a Sansa/Lysa aspect to Thomasin and her mother (who of course, is Lysa/Kate Dickie). Jealousy of youth/beauty. Equating youth/beauty with wickedness to the point of if becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

I think it's a cautionary tale of being too pious/fanatical, and that no matter what you do mere man/mortals can fall prey to the wiles of heathen/wicked people. And that can be freeing for some and damning for others. 

Beyond that, I love this movie.

Yep - I definitely agree with this and see it the same way.

7 hours ago, Ramsay B. said:

I guess the destruction of the family kind of clouded how I felt about the ending. But overall I also saw it as a liberating event for her and was relieved she got out of that terrible environment...even if it was through a deal with the devil himself. Which then poses the question of who the antagonist really was if not the devil.

 

Yes. I should've said Black Phillip helped things along.

I think that's interesting though - which is why I ask if the Devil really exists in the movie because God obviously isn't present. Or whether Black Philip is something other. 

 

6 hours ago, drawkcabi said:

I really loved this movie! I think it's an instant classic of the modern horror era.

My interpretation:

In the reality of the movie, the Bible is literal, the Devil is real and evil and God is real, contradictory, and unforgiving.

Pride is the stealthiest and most insidious of sins, it was not the only sin represented but the one that instigated the family being exiled from the town and a main driver of the father who in turn led the family.

I felt that with what happened, yes the family did this mostly to themselves but their path was cleared for them by a strict God with no compassion and an aggressive manipulative devil.

I was horrified because I felt that in the reality of the movie Thomasin was maneuvered into the position she found herself in at the end that she had to bargain for her life of freedom by giving up her soul to Satan for eternity.

I also interpreted the film as being an argument against the literal interpretation of the Bible and its contradictory, often mean spirited nature.

I'm not religious and never have been so my thoughts whilst watching this movie never went to eternal damnation and in fact part of me thinks that the film itself was criticising this black and white view of religion and faith. I'm not at all sure whether black philip is the devil or something else. 

And I see the ending as total freedom and liberation for Thomasin which is terrifying because it came at the death and slaughter of her whole family and so the witches, like the wilderness itself are natural in their horror and beauty and freedom and danger. 

I think I have to watch it again and again and again to really come to any sort of solid conclusion because I keep shifting my thoughts on it. 

[Theda Baratheon]

3 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I like to pretend that Thomasin only went with the witches at the end in order to find and kill the one who murdered her baby brother. 

Lol I feel bad for seeing the ending as a messed up happy one for Thomasin - her whole family oppressed her in one way or another and she's glad to be finally free of them. As twisted as that is 

[Eggegg]

I thought it was an excellent movie, the sort of horror movie that just stays with you and haunts your dreams long after you've watched it. It reminded me of a number of 70's horror movies that chilled me to the bone. 

My reading of it was of a family of believers in a God that has no power in this new world, that have set themselves into a culture and set of rules that are not compatible with 'nature'. What I took from it was that the laws of nature are what govern us ultimately, we can create all these man made laws, but they are superficial and petty in comparison to nature itself. 

The witches I see as something ancient and raw, and these new Christians are coming into their lands, they are non believers, and they will eventually destroy nature itself. 

I guess there is also a message there about freeing yourself from these rigid sets of ideas set out by religion and society, and going off and just doing what you want. Whether it was a message created on purpose or just that it seemed to resonate, the idea that Thomasin can escape her family and go off and live freely (even if she did sign a pact with the devil) seems to be close to what a lot of teenagers would feel at that age.

[drawkcabi]

44 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I'm not religious and never have been so my thoughts whilst watching this movie never went to eternal damnation and in fact part of me thinks that the film itself was criticising this black and white view of religion and faith. I'm not at all sure whether black philip is the devil or something else. 

And I see the ending as total freedom and liberation for Thomasin which is terrifying because it came at the death and slaughter of her whole family and so the witches, like the wilderness itself are natural in their horror and beauty and freedom and danger. 

I think I have to watch it again and again and again to really come to any sort of solid conclusion because I keep shifting my thoughts on it. 

I'm an atheist, but I really got into what I thought was the reality of the world of the movie and doing so chilled, fascinated, and frightened me. I saw Thomasin as having freedom and happiness at the end but the way I saw that world in the film I just had this feeling she would face an eternal doom for it. Along with the movie laying heavily on puritan beliefs and folklore, with goats being associated with the devil, the evil that was committed in the movie, I couldn't avoid thinking that's who Phillip was. When hearing that silky softy yet powerful and malignant whisper, that was the most memorable and scariest parts of the movie for me.

[Theda Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I thought it was an excellent movie, the sort of horror movie that just stays with you and haunts your dreams long after you've watched it. It reminded me of a number of 70's horror movies that chilled me to the bone. 

My reading of it was of a family of believers in a God that has no power in this new world, that have set themselves into a culture and set of rules that are not compatible with 'nature'. What I took from it was that the laws of nature are what govern us ultimately, we can create all these man made laws, but they are superficial and petty in comparison to nature itself. 

The witches I see as something ancient and raw, and these new Christians are coming into their lands, they are non believers, and they will eventually destroy nature itself. 

I guess there is also a message there about freeing yourself from these rigid sets of ideas set out by religion and society, and going off and just doing what you want. Whether it was a message created on purpose or just that it seemed to resonate, the idea that Thomasin can escape her family and go off and live freely (even if she did sign a pact with the devil) seems to be close to what a lot of teenagers would feel at that age.

Wow would you look at this eggegg - you and I are in total agreement for once lmao. Couldn't agree more with this point. Instead of black Philip being the Christian Devil and the witches being hid minions I instead saw them all as the polar opposite of the Christian world and just embodiments of nature in all its fierce and untameable glory.

 

2 hours ago, drawkcabi said:

I'm an atheist, but I really got into what I thought was the reality of the world of the movie and doing so chilled, fascinated, and frightened me. I saw Thomasin as having freedom and happiness at the end but the way I saw that world in the film I just had this feeling she would face an eternal doom for it. Along with the movie laying heavily on puritan beliefs and folklore, with goats being associated with the devil, the evil that was committed in the movie, I couldn't avoid thinking that's who Phillip was. When hearing that silky softy yet powerful and malignant whisper, that was the most memorable and scariest parts of the movie for me.

Like I said above I believe instead of the world the family believe is real; the Christian God and the Christian devil - black Philip and the witches are something even older and more natural. 

[Eggegg]

4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Wow would you look at this eggegg - you and I are in total agreement for once lmao. Couldn't agree more with this point. Instead of black Philip being the Christian Devil and the witches being hid minions I instead saw them all as the polar opposite of the Christian world and just embodiments of nature in all its fierce and untameable glory.

 

Like I said above I believe instead of the world the family believe is real; the Christian God and the Christian devil - black Philip and the witches are something even older and more natural. 

Haha yes, would you 'adam and eve it' ( as they say in London) 

Yeah I don't know if the movie is making any sort of comment on religion itself, I do think it has a negative portrayal of Christianity, seemingly being based on false beliefs and repressive doctrine. 

I will say that I went to see it in the theatre with a friend who's first language wasn't English. I think they managed to understand a 1/3rd of the conversations. Should have had subtitles.

 

[Theda Baratheon]

6 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

Haha yes, would you 'adam and eve it' ( as they say in London) 

Yeah I don't know if the movie is making any sort of comment on religion itself, I do think it has a negative portrayal of Christianity, seemingly being based on false beliefs and repressive doctrine. 

I will say that I went to see it in the theatre with a friend who's first language wasn't English. I think they managed to understand a 1/3rd of the conversations. Should have had subtitles.

 

I think you could say it has a negative view of Christianity but remember the family were kicked out from their previous community for being so strict so I see it more as criticising evangelical Christianity that is oppressive and rigid and miserable 

I understood it fine but I'm British an Def agree subtitles would have helped a LOT of people with it

[drawkcabi]

Agree about the subtitles, I never saw it in the theaters, first time I watched it was streaming on Amazon Prime and I had the subtitles on. I think I may have benefited even more than just the subtitles, sometimes a horror movie is great on a big movie screen, but with this movie, sitting alone in the dark, late at night (the witching hour  ) with just the light coming from my lap top screen no other lights on, it was a very intimate and unnerving viewing.

There's lots of great analyses of this movie on YouTube, again, all the good ones acknowledge this is only their POV understanding of the film and anyone who has different interpretations are just as fair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86mDPE1le9E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irv3SN2E9nI&t=932s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMBUNwu1Xcc

[Ramsay B.]

^^^The first youtube video is pretty close to how I see things. I love movies like this where there are so many little details and everyone sees it their own way. Makes me want to watch it again.

I don't wanna derail but I recommend The Wailing to everyone. Like The Witch, it has different interpretations and deals with certain religious aspects. The first time I saw it I thought about it for a few days after and had to view it again just to understand what the hell just happened. It also has some great youtube videos. 

[Theda Baratheon]

I shall give those videos a watch soon.

2 hours ago, Ramsay B. said:

^^^The first youtube video is pretty close to how I see things. I love movies like this where there are so many little details and everyone sees it their own way. Makes me want to watch it again.

I don't wanna derail but I recommend The Wailing to everyone. Like The Witch, it has different interpretations and deals with certain religious aspects. The first time I saw it I thought about it for a few days after and had to view it again just to understand what the hell just happened. It also has some great youtube videos. 

Never even heard of that film which is odd for me. Cheers. 

[A True Kaniggit]

16 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Lol I feel bad for seeing the ending as a messed up happy one for Thomasin - her whole family oppressed her in one way or another and she's glad to be finally free of them. As twisted as that is 

Truthfully, I agree with you. I ended up happy for Thomasin. She was born in a very restrictive world where her family was completely free to mentally and physically abuse her if they chose to do so. And at the end she was at a place where for the first time in her life she could do what she wanted to find her own happiness. 

But it still saddens me to think that one of these witches she has joined is the one that killed her infant brother, who from what we have seen she loved very much. And that if she continues along this path, one day she will also becomes someone who will murder an innocent baby.

[Theda Baratheon]

8 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Truthfully, I agree with you. I ended up happy for Thomasin. She was born in a very restrictive world where her family was completely free to mentally and physically abuse her if they chose to do so. And at the end she was at a place where for the first time in her life she could do what she wanted to find her own happiness. 

But it still saddens me to think that one of these witches she has joined is the one that killed her infant brother, who from what we have seen she loved very much. And that if she continues along this path, one day she will also becomes someone who will murder an innocent baby.

Yeah the baby''s death is the hardest to fit into my reading beause there' no two ways about it - it really is evil.