R+L=A

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

11 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned not thinking about Ashara shouldn't mean anything. There's another female character that, to my knowledge, he doesn't think of, not even once, nor are we given her name in the books. Lyarra Stark. Are we to assume Lord Rickard one day took a stroll in the godswood and Eddard was just hanging from a weirwood branch like an overripe fruit?

No, we should just assume that Ned's mother is irrelevant to the story.

By the same logic, if GRRM had wanted to make Ashara a relevant part of Ned's story, he would've written some memory of hers in one of his fifteen chapters.

[Faera]

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But why the secrecy though, if it was Brandon? To save Brandon's honor? Or perhaps is it because Allyria is a Stark bastard so has a claim? Even if Allyria was Ashara's child, they aren't openly announcing it her as a bastard, but a child born near 20 years after the last known Dayne of that generation.

Ned not thinking about Ashara shouldn't mean anything. There's another female character that, to my knowledge, he doesn't think of, not even once, nor are we given her name in the books. Lyarra Stark. Are we to assume Lord Rickard one day took a stroll in the godswood and Eddard was just hanging from a weirwood branch like an overripe fruit? He even has two siblings younger than him by a few years. Eddard was born in 263, Lyanna 266 or 267 Benjen unknown. So when Benjen was born he was 4 years old at least. could very well be 5-6 or  even 7. Old enough to have memories of his mother.

I don't think it was secrecy. Simply referring to him as "Stark" felt rather blunt and unfeeling.

As for Ned not thinking of Ashara, I guess take your point but given that she is supposedly a former lover, candidate #1 for the mother of his son and apparently killed herself, it simply seems off to me that he doesn't think of her at all.

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Shucks, I wish I would've said that first. 

But yes, as you've accurately pointed out, the thorns could just as easily be interpreted as a reference to the hardships that followed the romance. Barristan Selmy alludes to this in a different more literal manner, with the "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" comment, as he follows it by referring to the other Targaryen kings and princes whom who followed their hearts and essentially doomed themselves and immediate family for following their choices of love. He almost makes it sound like a Targaryen trait.

Or the thorns hidden beneath the crown, scratching and clawing, sharp and cruel represents the Iron Throne and the one who sits on it and it was Aerys who directed Rhaegar to give Lyanna the crown of roses.
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XI

Ned could feel cold steel against his fingers as he leaned forward. Between each finger was a blade, the points of twisted swords fanning out like talons from arms of the throne. Even after three centuries, some were still sharp enough to cut. The Iron Throne was full of traps for the unwary. The songs said it had taken a thousand blades to make it, heated white-hot in the furnace breath of Balerion the Black Dread. The hammering had taken fifty-nine days. The end of it was this hunched black beast made of razor edges and barbs and ribbons of sharp metal; a chair that could kill a man, and had, if the stories could be believed.

 

[Ygrain]

So every sharp object with a potential to draw blood is a representation of another such object?

 

 

 

 

[Bloodraven's Spider]

3 hours ago, Faera said:

@RhaegoTheUnborn and @Ferocious Veldt Roarer pretty much summed up why I am suspicious about N+A. We never hear about it from someone who was there - Ned Dayne wasn't born yet and neither Catelyn nor Cersei were present at the tournament. Ned never thinks about it, which immediately made me suspect people got the wrong end of the stick. The closest we get in Barristan stating that Ashara "turned to Stark". Given that the interactions between Barristan and Ned seemed fairly civil and he was primarily referred to as "Lord Eddard" by the most people during his time on the council, including by Barristan, I made me suspicious as to whether he was referring to Ned or possibly another Stark who Barristan might still harbour a seed of resentment towards, such as Brandon.

Say what you like about R+L, at least we can be certain they had sex -- your own theory relies on that fact too! Whether he loved her or not is, unfortunately, immaterial. Lyanna's baby, whether it is Jon or Aegon, could well be a child of rape. While there are several instances suggesting that Rhaegar might well have loved Lyanna, we've had very little evidence either way from Lyanna's end.

In any case, the issue we are discussing is whether there was a baby who came from that union and who the baby was. For the sake of the argument, fine, let's say that N+A is 100% true. How do we get from that to RLA? What was it about Aegon that made you suspect he was their son? That's what I really interesting in hearing.

Say what you like about R+L, at least we can be certain they had sex -- your own theory relies on that fact too! Whether he loved her or not is, unfortunately, immaterial. Lyanna's baby, whether it is Jon or Aegon, could well be a child of rape. While there are several instances suggesting that Rhaegar might well have loved Lyanna, we've had very little evidence either way from Lyanna's end.

In any case, the issue we are discussing is whether there was a baby who came from that union and who the baby was. For the sake of the argument, fine, let's say that N+A is 100% true. How do we get from that to RLA? What was it about Aegon that made you suspect he was their son? That's what I really interesting in hearing.

How can you confirm Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex? I cant prove that either even for R+L=A or for N+A=J. We only have so much information at our disposal. We have to fit the pieces together. I think it is much more likely that Ned and Ashara had sex in contrast to Rhaegar and Lyanna (I think both parties had sex and in both cases were consensual) If Rhaegar and Lyanna had wheres the proof? If they had a baby where is the proof? Neither instances have solid concrete evidence to support them. Jon being Rhaegar's is to simple for George.

 

@RhaegoTheUnborn You say my narrative is forcing me to close out all possibilities but i'm open to them. What you provided isn't enough to sway my opinion. Just like what I have provided hasn't been enough to sway yours. “He hasn’t thought about Rhaegar in years.” Let me ask you if you were raising another man’s child who happens to be a prince and the mother your sister who presumably died birthing the babe wouldn’t you think of him nearly every day not a decade or so after? Looks wise I see your points Jon could have a fair balance of Stark/Targaryen. And to the point with his eyes well; Ashara’s were violet if I recall correctly so a shade of purple nonetheless. You say George would do a better job of connecting Ned/Jon/Ashara; well the reason why he doesn’t do this or provide much evidence for it is to keep us engaged. He is extremely good at deceiving the reader and leading them down a no where path till a left turn comes out of nowhere. The mention of House Blackfyre and their history is means to guide us and plant seeds for Aegon being a fake but here comes the curveball he isn’t a fake. After Ned’s death we see Robb and Jon’s path mirror that of Ned one follows the path more similarly then the other because both are Neds sons

[Faera]

18 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

How can you confirm Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex? I cant prove that either even for R+L=A or for N+A=J. We only have so much information at our disposal. We have to fit the pieces together. I think it is much more likely that Ned and Ashara had sex in contrast to Rhaegar and Lyanna (I think both parties had sex and in both cases were consensual) If Rhaegar and Lyanna had wheres the proof? If they had a baby where is the proof? Neither instances have solid concrete evidence to support them. Jon being Rhaegar's is to simple for George.

 

 

Fine, let's presume then for the sake of the argument that a baby was born from the union of R+L... how did you personally come to the conclusion it was Aegon? Was there something about the character of Aegon that made you come to this conclusion?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

18 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

@RhaegoTheUnborn You say my narrative is forcing me to close out all possibilities but i'm open to them. What you provided isn't enough to sway my opinion. Just like what I have provided hasn't been enough to sway yours. “He hasn’t thought about Rhaegar in years.” Let me ask you if you were raising another man’s child who happens to be a prince and the mother your sister who presumably died birthing the babe wouldn’t you think of him nearly every day not a decade or so after?

I have a fun exercise for you, then: count, how many times, before that misquote, Ned in fact does think about Rhaegar Targaryen, or even talk about Rhaegar Targaryen. Spoiler alert, the first time is in Ned's first chapter.

And then, with that brand new, shocking evidence, revise your theory. I'll sit back and wait.

[Ygrain]

42 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

How can you confirm Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex?

You mean, he made off with her to sing her sad songs in the moonlight?

42 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

I think it is much more likely that Ned and Ashara had sex in contrast to Rhaegar and Lyanna (I think both parties had sex and in both cases were consensual)

Right in his first PoV, Ned says that he is not the type for casual sex, and later on, that he always keeps his vows and puts his honour above his own life. How is a guy living by such standards, likely to have extramarital sex?

42 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had wheres the proof? If they had a baby where is the proof?

"Lyanna in her bed of blood". 

True, it does not establish the father, but it does establish Lyanna as a mother.

42 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Jon being Rhaegar's is to simple for George.

If it were so simple, there wouldn't be tons of people who never figured it out before they went to the internet.

42 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

just like what I have provided hasn't been enough to sway yours.

The main problem is that you haven't provided anything, as far as I recall.

42 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

 “He hasn’t thought about Rhaegar in years.” Let me ask you if you were raising another man’s child who happens to be a prince and the mother your sister who presumably died birthing the babe wouldn’t you think of him nearly every day not a decade or so after? 

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen." As in, recollecting all he knew about the man, to evaluate him in contrast to Robert (the quote about Rhaegar not frequenting brothels follows). He is reminded about Rhaegar every couple of pages.

BTW, if Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyanna, thinking about him in the context of Robert's whoring and Lyanna's feelings about it  makes no sense; it make sense only if his relationship to Lyanna is on a similar level as Robert's.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

Fine, let's presume then for the sake of the argument that a baby was born from the union of R+L... how did you personally come to the conclusion it was Aegon? Was there something about the character of Aegon that made you come to this conclusion?

Based on his looks/personality/age

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I have a fun exercise for you, then: count, how many times, before that misquote, Ned in fact does think about Rhaegar Targaryen, or even talk about Rhaegar Targaryen. Spoiler alert, the first time is in Ned's first chapter.

And then, with that brand new, shocking evidence, revise your theory. I'll sit back and wait.

Yes he thinks about him but not years later! Major difference in thinking about someone x amount of years later and a week or 2 weeks they last saw them and to consecutively think about them throughout the years.

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

You mean, he made off with her to sing her sad songs in the moonlight?

Right in his first PoV, Ned says that he is not the type for casual sex, and later on, that he always keeps his vows and puts his honour above his own life. How is a guy living by such standards, likely to have extramarital sex?

"Lyanna in her bed of blood". 

True, it does not establish the father, but it does establish Lyanna as a mother.

If it were so simple, there wouldn't be tons of people who never figured it out before they went to the internet.

The main problem is that you haven't provided anything, as far as I recall.

"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen." As in, recollecting all he knew about the man, to evaluate him in contrast to Robert (the quote about Rhaegar not frequenting brothels follows). He is reminded about Rhaegar every couple of pages.

BTW, if Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyanna, thinking about him in the context of Robert's whoring and Lyanna's feelings about it  makes no sense; it make sense only if his relationship to Lyanna is on a similar level as Robert's.

Rhaegar obviously had something to do with Lyanna... Aegon is a result of their union. 

[Ygrain]

15 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Based on his looks/personality/age

He has the Taergaryen coloring just like the majority people in Lys; he is not a spitting image of Rhaegar, though.

He is educated and not stupid, but not suprisingly ingenious. He is not melancholic, he is not deliberate, single-minded or dutiful. So how is he like Rhaegar personality-wise?

We have only a rough estimate of his age, from Tyrion who has made mistakes in this respect. 

 

15 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Yes he thinks about him but not years later! Major difference in thinking about someone x amount of years later and a week or 2 weeks they last saw them and to consecutively think about them throughout the years.

You really need to re-read the actual quote. 

And it is perfectly possible not to actively access your memories of someone for a long time, especially when the person him/herself is not a part of your life. How many times have you been thinking about, say,,relatives you loved as a child but who are long dead? For Ned, Rhaegar was a guy whom he barely knew and who was the cause of his sister's demise. Jon's existence certainly wouldn't let him forget about Rhaegar completely but why would he want to think about the guy?

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So every sharp object with a potential to draw blood is a representation of another such object?

I haven't seen this much fantasizing since Donny Osmond hit the cover of teen magazine in 1967.  Really Ygrain, the thorns beneath the crown represent the troubles in their relationship?  How about the thorns beneath represent the iron throne and king Aerys.  That he was behind giving the crown to Lyanna; the reason why Rhaegar gives it to her instead of his wife from the the end of his lance. 

[Bloodraven's Spider]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

He has the Taergaryen coloring just like the majority people in Lys; he is not a spitting image of Rhaegar, though.

He is educated and not stupid, but not suprisingly ingenious. He is not melancholic, he is not deliberate, single-minded or dutiful. So how is he like Rhaegar personality-wise?

We have only a rough estimate of his age, from Tyrion who has made mistakes in this respect. 

 

You really need to re-read the actual quote. 

And it is perfectly possible not to actively access your memories of someone for a long time, especially when the person him/herself is not a part of your life. How many times have you been thinking about, say,,relatives you loved as a child but who are long dead? For Ned, Rhaegar was a guy whom he barely knew and who was the cause of his sister's demise. Jon's existence certainly wouldn't let him forget about Rhaegar completely but why would he want to think about the guy?

 

Correct why wouldnt he think about him? He thinks about but not frequently enough in terms of his sister lover and the father of kid hes raising. If that was you and this were the case and you were caring for your sisters child whose father was a prince murdered at war by your best friend; I think you would think of him everyday of your life. And Aegon's personality is opposite to that of his fathers. Rhaegar prefered books to swords where Aegons prefers the opposite. He is the spitting image of Rhaegar as we learn in one of Connington's chapter

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

Correct why wouldnt he think about him? He thinks about but not frequently enough in terms of his sister lover and the father of kid hes raising. If that was you and this were the case and you were caring for your sisters child whose father was a prince murdered at war by your best friend; I think you would think of him everyday of your life.

First, Rhaegar was killed in a duel, it was not murder. Second, Rhaegar's love for Lyanna started an immense tragedy. Lyanna was Ned's little sister, a child-woman. Rhaegar was the crown prince and her senior - even though Ned is just enough to admit that Lyanna's own actions played a role in her demise (her wolf blood led her to an early grave), don't you think that he might, you know, harbour at least some resentment towards Rhaegar? Especially with this image of Robert still loving Lyanna even after her death. It is only after the brothel scene that Ned sort of acknowledges that Lyanna may have been right, choosing Rhaegar over Robert.

Quote

And Aegon's personality is opposite to that of his fathers. Rhaegar prefered books to swords where Aegons prefers the opposite.

Then how do you derive a relationship from complete opposites? 

Quote

He is the spitting image of Rhaegar as we learn in one of Connington's chapter

Except, we don't. We never hear that Aegon has the same facial features, the same shape of eyes, nose, whatever, like Rhaegar, or do you have a quote showing the contrary? 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I haven't seen this much fantasizing since Donny Osmond hit the cover of teen magazine in 1967.  Really Ygrain, the thorns beneath the crown represent the troubles in their relationship?  How about the thorns beneath represent the iron throne and king Aerys.  That he was behind giving the crown to Lyanna; the reason why Rhaegar gives it to her instead of his wife from the the end of his lance. 

You call a devastated realm and thousands of dead "troubles in their relationship"? Wow.

And, yeah, I stand by the thorns being symbolic. The crowning is such a romantic gesture, love and beauty and what not, but it started a whole lot of problems which hurt a whole lot of people, because life is not a song.

And as for the lance, you couldn't wish for a clearer phalic symbol.

ETA: You yet have to explain how a romance where everyone involved dies as well as tons of innocent people on top of that, counts as "harlequin".

 

[Faera]

1 hour ago, Ser Insight said:

Based on his looks/personality/age

57 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

He has the Taergaryen coloring just like the majority people in Lys; he is not a spitting image of Rhaegar, though.

He is educated and not stupid, but not suprisingly ingenious. He is not melancholic, he is not deliberate, single-minded or dutiful. So how is he like Rhaegar personality-wise?

3

As I'm pretty certain I have said this before, Aegon being even vaguely like Rhaegar is nothing remarkable since in the official story is that he's Rhaegar's son with Elia. The conclusion I come to based on this is that he is either a.) Elia's son or b.) an imposter of a similar age from one of the Free Cities.
 

Quote

We have only a rough estimate of his age, from Tyrion who has made mistakes in this respect.

 

Indeed, Tyrion thought Jon was only twelve in AGOT so I would take any guess at ages with a grain of salt. I double checked the appendix of ADWD and it states that Young Griff is 'a lad of eighteen years'. That makes him the right age for Elia's son, Aegon.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

22 minutes ago, Faera said:

As I'm pretty certain I have said this before, Aegon being even vaguely like Rhaegar is nothing remarkable since in the official story is that he's Rhaegar's son with Elia. The conclusion I come to based on this is that he is either a.) Elia's son or b.) an imposter of a similar age from one of the Free Cities.
 

 

Indeed, Tyrion thought Jon was only twelve in AGOT so I would take any guess at ages with a grain of salt. I double checked the appendix of ADWD and it states that Young Griff is 'a lad of eighteen years'. That makes him the right age for Elia's son, Aegon.

He thinks he's the son of Elia and Rhaegar hes truly the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Where did Tyrion note Jon's age? 

[Ygrain]

10 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

He thinks he's the son of Elia and Rhaegar hes truly the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Where did Tyrion note Jon's age? 

AGOT:

The boy looked at him suspiciously. “Is this some kind of trick? I see you. Tyrion Lannister.”
Tyrion sighed. “You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. What you see is a dwarf. You are what, twelve?”
“Fourteen,” the boy said.

[Faera]

14 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

He thinks he's the son of Elia and Rhaegar hes truly the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Where did Tyrion note Jon's age? 

Here we come to the crux of this argument: why do you think Lyanna was his mother and not Elia?

RE: Guessing Jon's age wrong:

Quote

"Why do you read so much?"
Tyrion looked up at the sound of the voice. Jon Snow was standing a few feet away, regarding him curiously. He closed the book on a finger and said, "Look at me and tell me what you see."
The boy looked at him suspiciously. "Is this some kind of trick? I see you. Tyrion Lannister."
Tyrion sighed. "You are remarkably polite for a bastard, Snow. What you see is a dwarf. You are what, twelve?"
"Fourteen," the boy said.
"Fourteen, and you're taller than I will ever be... etc. etc.
- A Game of Thrones - Tyrion II

 

 

 

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

But why the secrecy though, if it was Brandon? To save Brandon's honor? Or perhaps is it because Allyria is a Stark bastard so has a claim? Even if Allyria was Ashara's child, they aren't openly announcing it her as a bastard, but a child born near 20 years after the last known Dayne of that generation.

Ned not thinking about Ashara shouldn't mean anything. There's another female character that, to my knowledge, he doesn't think of, not even once, nor are we given her name in the books. Lyarra Stark. Are we to assume Lord Rickard one day took a stroll in the godswood and Eddard was just hanging from a weirwood branch like an overripe fruit? He even has two siblings younger than him by a few years. Eddard was born in 263, Lyanna 266 or 267 Benjen unknown. So when Benjen was born he was 4 years old at least. could very well be 5-6 or  even 7. Old enough to have memories of his mother.

When has Ned's mother ever been important in any way to the story? Why should she be mentioned, she has no impact on any of what we're discussing, there's no reason for Ned to mention her. Whereas if Ashara was crucial to Ned's life and Jons identity, she most certainly would've been mentioned more by Martin in Neds POV chapters. We have examples of this for literally every other character whom is important to the overall story though.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

6 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

Say what you like about R+L, at least we can be certain they had sex -- your own theory relies on that fact too! Whether he loved her or not is, unfortunately, immaterial. Lyanna's baby, whether it is Jon or Aegon, could well be a child of rape. While there are several instances suggesting that Rhaegar might well have loved Lyanna, we've had very little evidence either way from Lyanna's end.

In any case, the issue we are discussing is whether there was a baby who came from that union and who the baby was. For the sake of the argument, fine, let's say that N+A is 100% true. How do we get from that to RLA? What was it about Aegon that made you suspect he was their son? That's what I really interesting in hearing.

 

How can you confirm Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex? I cant prove that either even for R+L=A or for N+A=J. We only have so much information at our disposal. We have to fit the pieces together. I think it is much more likely that Ned and Ashara had sex in contrast to Rhaegar and Lyanna (I think both parties had sex and in both cases were consensual) If Rhaegar and Lyanna had wheres the proof? If they had a baby where is the proof? Neither instances have solid concrete evidence to support them. Jon being Rhaegar's is to simple for George.

 

@RhaegoTheUnborn You say my narrative is forcing me to close out all possibilities but i'm open to them. What you provided isn't enough to sway my opinion. Just like what I have provided hasn't been enough to sway yours. “He hasn’t thought about Rhaegar in years.” Let me ask you if you were raising another man’s child who happens to be a prince and the mother your sister who presumably died birthing the babe wouldn’t you think of him nearly every day not a decade or so after? Looks wise I see your points Jon could have a fair balance of Stark/Targaryen. And to the point with his eyes well; Ashara’s were violet if I recall correctly so a shade of purple nonetheless. You say George would do a better job of connecting Ned/Jon/Ashara; well the reason why he doesn’t do this or provide much evidence for it is to keep us engaged. He is extremely good at deceiving the reader and leading them down a no where path till a left turn comes out of nowhere. The mention of House Blackfyre and their history is means to guide us and plant seeds for Aegon being a fake but here comes the curveball he isn’t a fake. After Ned’s death we see Robb and Jon’s path mirror that of Ned one follows the path more similarly then the other because both are Neds sons

Except you're flat out wrong in your quote of "he hasn't thought about Rhaegar in years".I posted on page 3, textual quotes from AGOT of Ned thinking of Rhaegar in more than one chapter, like numerous times infact. As Ferocious already pointed out, that is a horrible misquote, and something thats never stated in the books, and which Neds very own POV chapters prove wrong.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I haven't seen this much fantasizing since Donny Osmond hit the cover of teen magazine in 1967.  Really Ygrain, the thorns beneath the crown represent the troubles in their relationship?  How about the thorns beneath represent the iron throne and king Aerys.  That he was behind giving the crown to Lyanna; the reason why Rhaegar gives it to her instead of his wife from the the end of his lance. 

There is no fantasizing, just multiple people pointing out what the actual texts says and coming to our conclusions based on the context these quotes of text are used in. You're reaching to prove the opposite, the books themselves make no mention of Aerys being behind Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the Queen Of Love And Beauty because he offered her the winter rose crown from his lance. What it says at most, is that Rhaegar doing so was an attempt to curry favor with Winterfell for allies in a planned coup to depose Aerys.