R+L=A

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

25 minutes ago, Ser Insight said:

Firstly we learn about Ned and Ashara's romance in ASOS when Arya is with the brotherhood talking with Ned Dayne (named after Ned) who is the current Lord of Starfall and tells her about Ned and Ashara. And do I think Hoster and BLackfish knew about Ned's marriage with Ashara...No. I did think he told them he was married and was keeping who the wife was to himself

From the same chapter:

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now. I doubt there's any truth to it."

Also: you used the (false, but never mind that) "Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar" argument against Rhaegar being Jon's father. Well then, Ned never thought about Ashara, the presumable love of his life and mother of his child. Not once. Even when Cersei throws her name in his face, it doesn't stir any reflection, any memory on his part. How do you explain that?

[Bloodraven's Spider]

8 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

From the same chapter:

"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now. I doubt there's any truth to it."

Also: you used the (false, but never mind that) "Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar" argument against Rhaegar being Jon's father. Well then, Ned never thought about Ashara, the presumable love of his life and mother of his child. Not once. Even when Cersei throws her name in his face, it doesn't stir any reflection, any memory on his part. How do you explain that?

Thats a fair point. But ned does get angry when cercei throws Ashara in his face. After she says that that when ned tells her to leave westeros... Also when they find the dire wolf pups (before jon finds ghost) ned is clearly frustrated and upset jon doesnt get one

[Faera]

5 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

But ned does get angry when cercei throws Ashara in his face. After she says that that when ned tells her to leave westeros... 

He doesn't react at all. Here's a look at the passsge, which I copied straight from my kindle copy. This is right after Cersei slaps him for mocking her offer of sexual favours:

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“I shall wear that as a badge of honor,” Ned said dryly.

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

“Exile,” she said. “A bitter cup to drink from.”

“A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar’s children,” Ned said...

It is clear Ned is not doing this out of a personal vendetta but as what he perceived to be a kindness. He reflects on this later before he is imprisoned, hoping Cersei has the good sense to flee and then later when in the Black Cells he refers to his actions as "the madness of mercy". He could easily have gone to Robert immediately but he chose not to because he does not consider it honourable to kill children. He fell out with Robert over the murder of Princess Rhaenys and possibly Prince Aegon and vehemently opposed the assassination of Daenerys. It is a principle he has that children are innocents.

Besides, it is clear that neither the mention of Ashara nor the accusation he might have burned and raped in Dorne have offended him. It rolls off his back like it was nothing. He simply "said" with no real tone indicated, reacting less than when Cersei slapped him where he dryly quoted her earlier remark to Robert.

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Also when they find the dire wolf pups (before jon finds ghost) ned is clearly frustrated and upset jon doesnt get one

I don't see anger or even frustration in Ned's demure at all. I would say he is more... moved by Jon's self-sacrifice for Bran's sake. It can be summed up by Bran's thoughts here and confirmed with the brief exchange that follows:

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Bran saw his father’s face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done [... ] Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly. 

“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

Their lord father regarded Jon thoughtfully.

Ned isn't frustrated Jon doesn't get one; he'd intended to mercy kill them seconds before. Jon diplomatically "interpreted" the omen of the direwolf and her pups in a manner that would allow Bran to keep the pup. It was mature, selfless and moving. 

[Nowy Tends]

35 minutes ago, Faera said:

Ned isn't frustrated Jon doesn't get one; he'd been intended to mercy kill them. It is only because Jon diplomatically "interpreted" the omen of the direwolf in a manner that would allow Bran to keep the pup. It was mature, selfless and moving. 

Nicely said. Always a pleasure to read your comments on the text.

[Ygrain]

On 9. 1. 2018 at 2:44 AM, Ser Insight said:

Why not tell Jon or anyone for that matter? For safety reasons. Aegon needed to be well hidden even the slightest slip could put the boy in danger. Perhaps Ned could have told Jon about Ashara but then again she is with Aegon posing as Septa Lemore. What if Jon were to seek out Aegon only to find out his mother spent the better part of the past 15 years watching over his cousin rather than him?  Also if Ned were to let the beans spill about this, Robb/Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon all lose their claim to Winterfell; something Cat was so desperately worried about. That would make for some awkward dinner conversation... How would Cat react if the news broke Jon was truly Ashara's and they were married. She wouldnt be to thrilled but then again her father and the blackfish knew about Ned being married...Varys is the true player of the game and what does and doesn't do decides the fate of the realm:

As others have pointed out, telling Jon about Ashara =/= telling him that she is alive (if she is, which I don't believe). Telling Jon his mother was Ashara and she died would simply continue the story that everyone believes and Jon would have no reason to question it or go looking for her.

Also, note that Ashara on her own doesn't work as a secret too dangerous to share, you need to come up with some extra stuff to make it at least distantly fit, and the stuff you make up is more dishonorable than dangerous. For RLJ, you don't need any such mental gymnastics because we know the fate of Rhaegar's children by Elia.

There is zero indication of Hoster knowing that his daughter's marriage was a bigamy and that her position as a lady of Winterfell was somehow threatened. As for the rist between Hoster and Blackfish, you're simply wrong, it is stated clearly in the text that this was because Blackfish disobeyed his brother as his liege.

On 9. 1. 2018 at 2:44 AM, Ser Insight said:

Varys knows about Aegon and Jon so what ever the information contained in this letter might posses will not be new to spider but for whomever the letter is for it will be. Varys does not want anyone knowing of Aegon's existence and Jon's parentage because of how intertwined they are. Even if you believe R+L=J Varys still knows about Jon.

There has been zero indication so far that Varys knows anything about Jon. He is a skilled spymaster but not omniscient.

On 9. 1. 2018 at 2:44 AM, Ser Insight said:

Theres a huge piece of the puzzle know one knows and that who told Ned to go to the Tower of Joy? Its got to be either Varys or Pycelle and my money is on Varys

Rhaegar made sure that Dayne, Whent and Hightower remained at ToJ, and thus couldn't tell anyone. What makes you think that he confided anything to Varys or Pycelle, or be so stupid as to tell anyone a thing?

 

22 hours ago, Ser Insight said:

 Tywin makes a remark once we find out about Robb bedding and marrying Jeyne (He is his father's son. I believe that was the statement.) I take that as Tywin might have known or heard rumors and Ned and Ashara's relationship. But the difference is Ned did the "right" thing by putting Ashara aside as thousands of people would have been slaughtered which is what happened at the Red Wedding. 

That is nonsense. If Tywin got wind about the honorable Ned committing bigamy, he would have used the knowledge against House Stark and Ned himself, with his usual ruthlessness. Yet, he never does.

Robb is his father's son because he chose to do the impractical, honorable thing, just like Ned.

[Faera]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That is nonsense. If Tywin got wind about the honorable Ned committing bigamy, he would have used the knowledge against House Stark and Ned himself, with his usual ruthlessness. Yet, he never does.

 

Good point. If he knew that Ned had committed bigamy, that Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are all bastards it would be like all his Namedays had come at once. 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

For RLJ, you don't need any such mental gymnastics because we know the fate of Rhaegar's children by Elia.

It's why I've always liked RLJ since I first puzzled it together for myself while reading AGoT, it doesn't hurt my head to think about it. It also doesn't rely on too many leaps in logic. Every other suggestion as to who Lyanna's baby is involves so much running around it exhausts me just reading them!

[Faera]

3 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Nicely said. Always a pleasure to read your comments on the text.

Awwww, thank you! I was worried that last post wasn't very clear, hence why I've tweaked it a billion times.  

That first scene really defines who the two eldest boys. Robb is the passionate, vocal and practical one who offers quick solutions e.g. reasoning how they could feed the pups and maintain them. Jon is the quiet, observant and sensitive one who tends to read between the lines and "doesn't miss much" e.g. noticing the number of pups, their sexes and using it to turn the fear of the direwolf-killed-by-stag omen into something that will make his little brother happy. Both think of their feet but view what is before them sooooooooo differently. It is also a hugely character-defining chapter for Jon... and it's only the first proper chapter!