Military Strengths and More!

[Free Northman Reborn]

21 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Check also the quote from TWOIAF, which is further more support.

I wasn't sure which quote you were referring to. If it is to the Iron Isles quote, I don't see why you use the poor Iron Isles with its miniscule comparative population and land area as evidence for the state of affairs on the mainland. Martin has said that they don't even have knights, nevermind landed knights, and given the tiny amount of land available there will indeed be some "rocks" that are only large enough for a single village. Given their culture and economy, this village will largely live from fishing in any case, so land area and density patterns will be quite different from the rest of Westeros.

So that quote doesn't say anything about the average landed knight in the mainland kingdoms.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So that quote doesn't say anything about the average landed knight in the mainland kingdoms.

No it says a lot about how few holdings you can have and still be considered nobility, whether lord, landed knight or master.

It also shows having just a single village is not something uncommon, again Baelish, Merlyn and also Botley and Wynch unless they have some other settlements besides their towns on the small island of Pyke. Not mainlanders, the lot of them, true but again, you can own a single village and still be called a lord.

Some other examples would very likely be the Northern clans of the mountains and wolfswood both and also crannogmen as their crannogs change places.

Vale clansmen who split into new clans once they move far from the main group would also count, if they had a single ruler per clan.

Heddles with their inn are also a house of landed knights.

Remember what GRRM says, "down to the guy who can raise 5 friends" Eustace raises a bunch of guys from 3 villages, but villagers don't give a damn about him and he is an old and done man. Someone younger commanding some more respect may very well raise the five guys from a single village.

[Free Northman Reborn]

57 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

No it says a lot about how few holdings you can have and still be considered nobility, whether lord, landed knight or master.

It also shows having just a single village is not something uncommon, again Baelish, Merlyn and also Botley and Wynch unless they have some other settlements besides their towns on the small island of Pyke. Not mainlanders, the lot of them, true but again, you can own a single village and still be called a lord.

Some other examples would very likely be the Northern clans of the mountains and wolfswood both and also crannogmen as their crannogs change places.

Vale clansmen who split into new clans once they move far from the main group would also count, if they had a single ruler per clan.

Yeah, I think we're talking past each other. I haven't argued that there are no lords or landed knights who might rule only a single village. Logic dictates that there will be a spectrum, from most to least powerful, amongst both lords and landed knights.

Now, we know the most powerful landed knights rule domains that include a thousand villages or more (House Templeton, Glover, Tallhart, to name the known examples). At the opposite end of the spectrum will be the weakest landed knights. And since it is physically impossible to rule less than one village and still sustain your House, the weakest landed knights will logically rule only one village.

My argument is simply that the average landed knight falls somewhere inbetween these two extremes. Your argument is that the average landed knight falls at the very bottom of this range. Which I say makes no sense.

The WEAKEST ones rule a single village, since you can't grow any weaker than that and still survive. But the average will obviusly be higher than the weakest number.

The sheer number of villages that need to exist in Westeros in order to support its overwhelmingly rural population pretty much guarantees that you need a lot more villages than landed knights and lords, else we would have hundreds of thousands of lords and landed knights.

So to summarize it all into a holistic picture, let's suggest something like this:

Powerful great lord (e.g. House Manderly) - rules a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights.

Each petty lord maybe rules 10 landed knights of his own, on average, although the poorest ones have no landed knights whatsoever sworn to them (e.g. House Littlefinger in the Fingers).

So at the lowest level you have say a thousand landed knights that form the lowest tier of nobility in the Manderly lands, sworn either directly to Lord Manderly or to his various petty lords. And under each of these landed knights there will on average be say 10 villages. With the most powerful landed knight in the region ruling maybe a hundred villages, and the weakest ones ruling only one village.

So each petty lord on average then rules about a hundred villages through their landed knights and another few dozen villages directly on the lands immediately surrounding their keep. Again, I say on average, because some petty lords will be much stronger, and some will be much weaker, perhaps at the very bottom you have one at the level of Littlefinger.

Your contention that on average a landed knight rules a single village, is not feasible. The weakest ones, yes. But not the average ones.

EDIT

This is a hypothetical model. I haven't done the calculation to see whether a thousand landed knights can actually exist in the Manderly lands. Most likely we are talking a few hundred, rather than a thousand, meaning each petty lord has say only 4 or 5 landed knights below him, on average. But ironically, that would require each individual landed knight to rule even more than 10 villages on average, in order to arrive at the required number of villages to support the population of the region.

[Corvo the Crow]

Just a small thing; other people may know it already but I just learned a man-at-arms is not just a professional soldier, but a mounted one serving as heavy cavalry, like a knight. So the 300 of Rickard Karstark are, while not being knights, men-at-arms.

[Corvo the Crow]

http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html Prices for many things such as arms, armor, cloth, wages...

 

I have also found this

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Two serving men were carrying off the dead dog's carcass and an old woman had fetched out a mop and rake and bucket to deal with the blood-soaked rushes when the doors to the hall flew open in a wash of wind, and a dozen men in grey mail and iron halfhelms stalked through, shouldering past Stout's pasty-faced young guards in their leather brigandines and cloaks of gold and russet. A sudden silence seized the feasters … all but Lord Ramsay, who tossed aside the bone he had been gnawing, wiped his mouth on his sleeve, smiled a greasy, wet-lipped smile, and said, "Father."

A Brigandine is more expensive than mail armor and usually worn over it. Compared with the below, Dustins could be better off than Freys in terms of wealth since even their vassals are able to afford better protection for their men.

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A swollen red sun hung low against the western hills when the gates of the castle opened. The drawbridge creaked down, the portcullis winched up, and Lady Catelyn Stark rode forth to rejoin her son and his lords bannermen. Behind her came Ser Jared Frey, Ser Hosteen Frey, Ser Danwell Frey, and Lord Walder's bastard son Ronel Rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silvery grey cloaks.

I especially used Freys and not some other house whose men also wear mail since Freys are described to be a wealthy house.

[Corvo the Crow]

With book of swords' release we have some new information regarding numbers, so I'll be adding them soon.

[Corvo the Crow]

Savage Sam had several thousand men during Vulture Hunt.

Vulture king who had some 30000 men, almost all ill equipped peasants.. After splitting his force in half, he had twice the numbers of Dondarrion, Caron and Tarly combined.

Against second Vulture King Caron and Dondarrion had 4000 infantry and 800 knights, which included freeriders.

So Tarlys must have more or less 3000 men.

[Corvo the Crow]

Maegor's host gathered in King's Landing by his King's Guard had 5000 men.

He later has close to 4000 men,of which 400 are knights, gathered from a score of lesser houses. These houses include Mallery, Darklyn, Staunton, Towers, Massey, Bar Emmon, Buckwell, Hayford, Harte, Stokeworth, Rosby, Bywater, Byrch, Rollingford.

[Corvo the Crow]

So, since I have recently delved a bit into equipments, I decided to also post some information on what men wear into battle in Westeros, especially common men. I'll group them into regions, and where possible, to houses.

Some information below to get a start.

Frey: Mail.

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The company included more swords than Catelyn would have liked. Three by the fire wore the red stallion badge of the Brackens, and there was a large party in blue steel ringmail and capes of a silvery grey. On their shoulder was another familiar sigil, the twin towers of House Frey.

Behind her came Ser Jared Frey, Ser Hosteen Frey, Ser Danwell Frey, and Lord Walder's bastard son Ronel Rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silvery grey cloaks.

 

Lannister Guards: Steelcaps with noseguard, Mail shirt, boiled leather, leather pants with steel codpiece.

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The grey light of dawn was streaming through his window when the thunder of hoofbeats awoke Eddard Stark from his brief, exhausted sleep. He lifted his head from the table to look down into the yard. Below, men in mail and leather and crimson cloaks were making the morning ring to the sound of swords, and riding down mock warriors stuffed with straw.

A knight of the Kingsguard stood beneath the arch of the door with five Lannister guardsmen arrayed behind him. He was in full armor, but his visor was up. Arya remembered his droopy eyes and rust-colored whiskers from when he had come to Winterfell with the king: Ser Meryn Trant. The red cloaks wore mail shirts over boiled leather and steel caps with lion crests. "Arya Stark," the knight said, "come with us, child."

Arya retreated, her own sword stick clutched tightly in her hand. Watching him now, she realized that Syrio had only been toying with her when they dueled. The red cloaks came at him from three sides with steel in their hands. They had chainmail over their chest and arms, and steel codpieces sewn into their pants, but only leather on their legs. Their hands were bare, and the caps they wore had noseguards, but no visor over the eyes.

 

Piper Bowman: Mail

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One day, in an earthen hollow made by the roots of a fallen oak, they came face to face with another survivor of the Twins. The badge on his breast showed a pink maiden dancing in a swirl of silk, and he told them he was Ser Marq Piper's man; a bowman, though he'd lost his bow. His left shoulder was all twisted and swollen where it met his arm; a blow from a mace, he said, it had broken his shoulder and smashed his chainmail deep into his flesh.

 

Stark Guards: Steel helms, mail coifs, mail and leather.

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He was followed by four guardsmen in mailed shirts and coifs, and Joseth, a stick-thin stableman whom Robb had named master of horse while Hullen was away.

With a single sharp thrust, the nearest gold cloak drove his spear into Tomard's back. Fat Tom's blade dropped from nerveless fingers as the wet red point burst out through his ribs, piercing leather and mail. He was dead before his sword hit the floor.

Littlefinger gave Ned his arm to help him down the steps. Varys, Pycelle, and Ser Barristan followed close behind. A double column of men-at-arms in chainmail and steel helms was waiting outside the tower, eight strong. Grey cloaks snapped in the wind as the guardsmen marched them across the yard.

 

Stout Guards: Brigandine

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Two serving men were carrying off the dead dog's carcass and an old woman had fetched out a mop and rake and bucket to deal with the blood-soaked rushes when the doors to the hall flew open in a wash of wind, and a dozen men in grey mail and iron halfhelms stalked through, shouldering past Stout's pasty-faced young guards in their leather brigandines and cloaks of gold and russet.

 

[Bernie Mac]

On 4/8/2018 at 9:52 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I have made some calculations on Stormlands before, this supports them having lower figures than Riverlands, Westerlands and Vale since not only it is thinly peopled, but it's also a smaller realm than any of the three. 

what calculations? can we see them? 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

what calculations? can we see them? 

Unfortunately not. My old computer is gone for some months now but I have probably posted them in this thread or the previous. I have moved a couple of weeks ago and will move again in a month so I have no internet at home. I'll dig through my old posts to find it and may do the calculations again, especially since book of swords is out there may be more information but with no internet at home it may take a couple of days or more.

To give some idea, it involved the numbers we see in Aegon's conquest.

We also get tidbits of information on some houses, through comparison to others. Like a comparison of Tarths and Velaryons in one of the novellas, I think it was TPATQ again; We know Velaryons have a few hundred men, both through Aegon's and Stannis' numbers and they are told to be the most powerful lord among a group of houses listed, which include Tarths. It's not too reliable of course with the Velaryon fleet also adding to their power but there are other things that imply, such as Tarths being part of Renly's host but Catelyn not noticing any Tarth banners in the Stormlander camp near bitterbridge which is much smaller than the Reachman camp.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Bernie Mac Stormlands calculation, or part of it.

Aegon had between hundreds and three thousand when he landed, best figure we get is from Davos chapters that Stannis' "fifteen hundred" is more than what Aegon had.

Mooton and Darklyn strike with 3000 men. There's also Rosby and Stokeworth but from all we've seen(Tyrion's KL chapters, Book of Swords, Princess and Queen) their numbers are in the hundreds at most.

Orys takes the greater part of What Aegon has (~5000 at most) to Stormlands. Mooton goes with Aegon.

Errol, Buckler and Fell kills 1000 men of Orys' host.

Meraxes burns the forest these lords are hiding, Errol died, Buckler and Fell retreated to inform Argilac who gathered a host.

Argilac had almost twice the numbers of Orys and had 4 times the cavalry.

On phone atm so will post quotes later.

So, if Orys took all the 5000 men, Argilac after losing some of Errol, Buckler and Fell men, has around 8000 men(twice of Orys remaining 4000) 

Dorne also attacked the marches so some marcher lords(except Dondarrion) possibly stayed back, as they also did during Wot5K.

Going by a higher figure; if Aegon had 3000, after Darklyn and Mooton's 3000 is taken and giving another 1000 to Rosby and Stokeworth( highly unlikely) together, Orys would have 7000 men if he took all and 6000 men when facing Argilac. Argilac would then have 12000 when facing Orys. 

This 12000 is again, after Errol, Buckler and Fell losses and with some marchers possibly absent.

Aegon faces an army of 55000 Reachman and Westerman and he has 11000. 

5000 men die, tens of thousands(so some 20000 at least) suffer burns.

Torrhen faces an army of 45000 Reachmen, Westermen, Riverlanders and Stormlanders; Aegon called the lords he defeated and all had come.

Aegon had 11000 Rivermen,

Reachmen and Westermen at most make 30000.

So some 40000 already.

Excluding Last Storm casualties, Orys may have brought some 18000 men if we take the higher figures and you can see how much it exceeds that 45000.

If we are to assume some more possible numbers;

example 1

Aegon had ~1000

Mooton has 1400 to make it slightly lower than Darklyn(bigger settlement)

Darklyn has 1600

Rosby and Stokeworth 400(Maegor had 4000 from 20 houses of Crownlands and Harrenhal)

Aegon only takes Mooton, Orys has 3000 and has 2000 after losing 1000. Argilac has 4000 after losing some

example 2

Aegon has 1000

Mooton has 1000

Darklyn has 2000(as many as KL gold cloaks when it was first formed)

Rosby and Stokeworth 500 togerher

Aegon again takes Mooton alone, Orys has 3500, making Argilac have 6000 at last storm. If we give another 500 to Aegon's first force, Argilac has 7000.

Riverlands, Reach and West all have some1,5-2 times the men during WoT5K so Stormlands today may also increased by the same amount.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

Some more information from Book of Swords;

Aegon had 15000 men when he rose against his uncle Maegor with an army Largely made up of Riverlanders and Westerman.

He had lords Paege, Frey, Charlton, Vance, Piper and Roote from Riverlands  and Lords Westerling, Parren and Tarbeck from Westerlands. Lord Corbray also joined him and so did fourth son of Connington and Bastard of Barrowton, though the last two likely commanded no men of their own like Robar Royce in Renly's army.

Of these houses we have numbers on the following; 

Reyne 2000 men of which 200 is knights during their rebellion.

Tarbecks 500 knights during rebellion, presumably 1500 foot.

Frey 200 horse 600 foot during the Dance.

Frey, including Charlton 1000 horse 3000 foot during WoT 5K

 

[Bernie Mac]

3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Frey, including Charlton 1000 horse 3000 foot during WoT 5K

 

Lord Charlton is not mentioned to be among the 4k in AGOT. He'd either be at Riverrun or defending his own lands, but there is nothing to suggest that he was at the Twins at the start of the series. 

[Corvo the Crow]

First Tumbleton had near 9000 defenders. Town had a garrison of 40 and Winterwolves and Riverman had ~7000 men. Rest of them came from Bitterbridge, Longtable and further south. Since Bitterbridge and Longtable are the only names we are given, it wouldn't be wrong to assume Caswell and Merryweather men were the most numerous among this 2000.

[Corvo the Crow]

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Lord Charlton is not mentioned to be among the 4k in AGOT. He'd either be at Riverrun or defending his own lands, but there is nothing to suggest that he was at the Twins at the start of the series. 

It is the same thing as with Barrowlands/Ryswells in the other thread. It wasn't fleshed out at the time and we only get a mention of Charlton twice in main series and the first is in ASOS during Arya's time in BWB.

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House Frey displayed on shield and banners, blue on grey, along with the arms of lesser Houses sworn to the Crossing: the heron of Erenford, the pitchfork of Haigh, Lord Charlton's three sprigs of mistletoe. 

From AFFC.

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IX

"Heh," said Lord Walder, a noise halfway between a laugh and a grunt. "I called my swords, yes I did, here they are, you saw them on the walls. It was my intent to march as soon as all my strength was assembled. Well, to send my sons. I am well past marching myself, Lady Catelyn." He looked around for likely confirmation and pointed to a tall, stooped man of fifty years. "Tell her, Jared. Tell her that was my intent."

 

[Bernie Mac]

32 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It is the same thing as with Barrowlands/Ryswells in the other thread. It wasn't fleshed out at the time

GRRM not describing every detail in the first book does not mean it was not fleshed out in his work, pointless overwhelming the reader with everything at once. 

We know of Ryswell and Dustin in AGOT while logically we can work out that Houses Locke, Rywell, Dustin and both Flints added around 5-6k to Robb's host. 

32 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

 and we only get a mention of Charlton twice in main series and the first is in ASOS during Arya's time in BWB.

and numbers wise we see see the Frey numbers significantly increase in AFFC from what we are told they are in AGOT. Adding the Charlton's to their numbers in AFFC is a plausible reason for this significant increase. 

32 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

From AFFC.

except we have no idea were the Charlton lands are. If they are south of the Twins it will have been pointless them going to the Twins and unlikely that Edmure would not send Lord Chalrton a raven, as you yourself pointed out they joined separately in the Dance. 

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

nd numbers wise we see see the Frey numbers significantly increase in AFFC from what we are told they are in AGOT. Adding the Charlton's to their numbers in AFFC is a plausible reason for this significant increase. 

Yes, from mailed men holding pikes and spears to peasants with sharpened sticks.

Walder said he gathered all his men. All his men includes his vassals Charltons.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

s you yourself pointed out they joined separately in the Dance. 

There's no reason to think Charltons were Frey vassals then. They may have been vassals or they may be sworn directly to Tullys, or even some other lord.

Charltons were kings long before Freys ever existed. They are Frey vassals now but that could have happened fairly recently.

[Bernie Mac]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes, from mailed men holding pikes and spears to peasants with sharpened sticks.

sure, every army seems to have those

Most of them were smallfolk: crofters, fieldhands, fishermen, sheepherders, the sons of innkeeps and traders and tanners, leavened with a smattering of sellswords and freeriders hungry for plunder. When their lords called, they came … but not forever. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but the north is much bigger, so it takes longer for an army to gather. And life is harsher there as well, so lords and smallfolk both need to think carefully before beating those plowshares into swords.

 

but the fact remains that the Frey army is significantly bigger in ADWD than it should be if they only had 4k men to begin with. 

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Walder said he gathered all his men.

Yes, his Frey men. Lord Charlton is a lord, he would have his own castle and lands that would need defending if he had not already made it to Riverrun. 

It is even pointed out by the Blackfish that it is only most of his strength

"Most of Lord Walder's strength remains massed at the Twins, though."

 

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All his men includes his vassals Charltons.

It is vague. The Tallharts are counted separately despite not being a Lordly House when Roddrik assembles an army to deal with the Ironborn, Theon looks upon them as an individual host

 The lords, Coldwater and Tollett who serve Royce are considered separate forces in AFFC

"He means to come in force. Symond Templeton will join him, do not doubt it. And Lady Waynwood too, I fear."

"And Lord Belmore, Young Lord Hunter, Horton Redfort. They will bring Strong Sam Stone, the Tolletts, the Shetts, the Coldwaters... "

 

it is vague..

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There's no reason to think Charltons were Frey vassals then.

there is no reason to they were not. 

There is nothing to suggest that this had happened in Walder's lifetime, that leaves either the 70 years after the Dance or at some point in the 430 years before the Dance. 

 

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Charltons were kings long before Freys ever existed. They are Frey vassals now but that could have happened fairly recently.

and it could have happened centuries ago, I'm not sure your point other than you would rather make one assumption than the other based on nothing more than a flip of the coin. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

The only time we see peasants with sharpened sticks marching with an army is when the Freys march north. The next closest is the portion of Tyrion's van -- "fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers’ rusted swords, half-trained boys from the stews of Lannisport” -- and they were at least armed with actual weapons. 

 It always made the most sense to me that Walder was basically just sending whatever men he could to satisfy a crown demand. It's pretty obvious that sending men to a hostile north at the onset of autumn is going to be bad for their health. 

So Frey's original strength around 4K makes sense even with the expanded numbers if you just assume Walder knows he's sending men to die.