Military Strengths and More!

[Lord Varys]

Guys, there is no reason to assume that the average great house controls many men personally. Just look at Winterfell; in the northwest there are the Glovers, and in the south there are the Cerwyns, a mere day's ride away. A lot of Stark men would therefore be Cerwyn men.

Or take Oldtown (surrounded by many lesser castles sworn to the Hightower) or KL (which is basically the only place aside from Dragonstone which is directly controlled by the king).

It might be that there are some great houses which control a significant portion without intermediaries - but if that's the case then we have yet to see this.

As to petty lords:

That is not exactly a well-defined term. A petty lord is a very small lord, but he is still a lord and as far as we know he still has all the rights and privileges a not-so-petty lord has, so this seems to be more derogatory term than one that's clearly defined and marks difference in the feudal hierarchy.

From the point of view of the Hightowers pretty much any other lord in the Seven Kingdoms would be 'petty'. From the POV of the Freys or the Tarlys or the Corbrays it would be others.

We also don't know how the feudal pyramid is organized. A lord who has still other vassals doesn't sound very petty to me. In that sense, the lords of the Crownlands (especially the Darklyns but also the Rosbys and Stokeworths) wouldn't qualify as petty in my opinion. Those houses likely command a significant portion of yet smaller lords and/or at least landed knights.

In regard to the ratio of horse vs. foot, etc. one has to keep in mind that there are always freeriders (basically professional warriors with horses who aren't knights and who fight for coin, not out of some feudal responsibility). We don't know how large that ratio is when comparing freeriders to mounted lords and knights.

And when considering the large host of the Lords Declarant one shouldn't make the mistake to assume that those men were all made up out of levies and vassals of the lords making up that alliance. There is a power vacuum in the Vale at this point, and the Lord Arryn cannot do anything to stop some of his principal bannermen to march against them. If the Royces, Waynwoods, Hunters, etc. march against the Eyrie then a lot of people in the Vale might feel compelled to join them - never mind whether they are sworn to any of the lords in the group or not.

Lyn Corbray also joined them, and even forced himself among the envoys visiting Littlefinger.

And if you look at the Dance, then we see Lord Ormund Hightower subduing the entire Reach along his line of march between Oldtown and Tumbleton. He is forcing men to join his army who are not sworn to Oldtown.

[Corvo the Crow]

37 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

when does Varys mention to Nightsong or House Caron? 

He gives us a number of dead lords, dead knights, dead common soldiers. He says lesser lords and no number is given apart from that. No great lords no high lords, no lords. You may argue these would be fewer and mentioned off page so no need to name a couple of dead lords or so, but then again, we aren't told of any petty lords either, which would be much more numerous than lesser lords if there really was a distinction between the  two. obviously there isn't. Varys doesn't need to name each and every lord. He says that some thirty-forty whatever number is dead and they (their houses) are stripped of their lands. We learn that House Caron is stripped of their land and it is given to some lesser born Foote.

Another notable dead; Imry, of house Florent, another house we know to be stripped of their lands and he isn't even their lord. Are they lesser lords or not?

Guyard Morrigen died as well, and his father remains defiant. Are they lesser lords or not?

Lord Velaryon is dead. Are they lesser lords or not?

Instead of admitting your mistake, you are just arguing against evidence.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

again, not seeing the confusion. the lack of capital L would likely mean those people were lesser nobility, such as the large court of nobles we see at White Harbor. from that description it does not sound like he brought his petty lords. 

Provide an example of lesser nobility; individual or person. Also I may not have noticed, are there any capital L lesser lords?

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

he does not bring his complete host because he wants a well guarded garrison, nothing to do with him wanting to maintain some ratio you have invented

Oh I haven't invented it. It was here on the forums long before I even started visiting the forums, let alone join or contribute. Just ask @Free Northman Reborn 

As for the garrison, did he want a 10000 garrison when the highest we have seen for a single castle so far is 430 Dragonstone? Just wow!

 

[Corvo the Crow]

It was an old grievance, deeply felt, and never more so than now. Here was the heart of his lord's weakness; for Dragonstone, old and strong though it was, commanded the allegiance of only a handful of lesser lords, whose stony island holdings were too thinly peopled to yield up the men that Stannis needed. Even with the sellswords he had brought across the narrow sea from the Free Cities of Myr and Lys, the host camped outside his walls was far too small to bring down the power of House Lannister.

Oh look Velaryon the lesser lord, along with Celtigar the lesser lord.

When Davos arrived at the Stone Drum, a dozen highborn knights and greatbannermen were just leaving. LordsCeltigar and Velaryon each gave him a curt nod and walked on while the others ignored him utterly, but Ser Axell Florent stopped for a word.

Oh look Celtigar the great bannermen, previously known as Celtigar the lesser lord. Along with Velaryon the-same-as-Celtigar too. But says great bannermen so it doesn't count, right? Great bannermen, Lesser Lord it can work that way.

There were great lords and noble knights in that company too: sour old Lord Celtigar, the Red Crab; Ser Bonifer the Good; LordEstermont, more ancient even than Celtigar; Lord Varner, who hobbled the length of the hall on a shattered knee, but would accept no help; Ser Mark Mullendore, grey-faced, his left arm gone to the elbow; fierce Red Ronnet of Griffin Roost; Ser Dermot of the Rainwood; Lord Willum and his sons Josua and Elyas; Ser Jon Fossoway; Ser Timon the Scrapesword; Aurane, the bastard of Driftmark; Lord Staedmon, called Pennylover; hundreds of others.

Oh look Celtigar again. Now, he is great! lord. But I think I'm being stupid. Obviously losing a battle, men, ships and getting captive would climb you up the feudal ladder. Such are the medieval times.

Few enough," the maester said with a touch of impatience. "To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great housesworship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights … but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man's worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before."

Oh look, great houses beyond neck worshipping the seven. Few houses not a house or couple of houses. Well it could have been several too but fortunately not. I wonder if it's the Karstarks or Umbers. Perhaps it may even be Boltons?

You. You are unwed. A great lord, still virile, with no heirs except these cousins we have just now dispossessed, the scion of an ancient House with a fine stout castle and wide, rich lands that will no doubt be restored and perhaps expanded by a grateful king, once we have triumphed. You have a name as a warrior, and as King Aegon's Hand you will speak with his voice and rule this realm in all but name. I would think that many an ambitious lord might be eager to wed his daughter to such a man. Even, perhaps, the prince of Dorne."

JonCon the Great... lord. Great lord of a house of landed knights. 

 

But yes, clearly there is a structure of great lord>high lord>lord>lesser lord>petty lord.

[Bernie Mac]

On 6/19/2018 at 12:59 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

But yes, clearly there is a structure of great lord>high lord>lord>lesser lord>petty lord.

I think you are missing what is being said, a lesser lord is a description, not a title. 

over lord>lord>landed knight/masterly house/petty lord.

That seems to be the known ranking, with no real distinction between the last three

 

On 6/19/2018 at 11:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

He gives us a number of dead lords, dead knights, dead common soldiers. He says lesser lords and no number is given apart from that. No great lords no high lords, no lords. You may argue these would be fewer and mentioned off page so no need to name a couple of dead lords or so, but then again, we aren't told of any petty lords either, which would be much more numerous than lesser lords if there really was a distinction between the  two. obviously there isn't. Varys doesn't need to name each and every lord. He says that some thirty-forty whatever number is dead and they (their houses) are stripped of their lands. We learn that House Caron is stripped of their land and it is given to some lesser born Foote.

So there is no mention of Varys saying that about House Caron or Nightsong. I thought it was strange that you didn't try to back this claim up with a quote like you usually do. 

This, from the looks of it, is another guess.Your claim that Varys would disagree with my statement was your opinion rather anything directly said in the books. Good to know. 

On 6/19/2018 at 11:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Another notable dead; Imry, of house Florent, another house we know to be stripped of their lands and he isn't even their lord. Are they lesser lords or not?

who has claimed they are? certainly not me or anyone in the books. is this really how you are going to operate, throw as many strawman arguments around simply because someone challenged you on something? 

On 6/19/2018 at 11:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Guyard Morrigen died as well, and his father remains defiant. Are they lesser lords or not?

who has claimed they are? not me and not anyone in the books.

On 6/19/2018 at 11:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Lord Velaryon is dead. Are they lesser lords or not?

lol ,come on, you are better than this

On 6/19/2018 at 11:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Instead of admitting your mistake, you are just arguing against evidence.

what evidence? 

On 6/19/2018 at 11:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Provide an example of lesser nobility; individual or person. Also I may not have noticed, are there any capital L lesser lords?

What are you asking here? 

A petty lord is a title, such as House Stout or the Northern Mountain Clans and their southern equivalents according to Jon. 

Lesser nobility is a description, such as cousins to the main branch would be lesser nobles or some Houses, such as the Westerlings in the West, are looked upon as lesser nobility. 

 

On 6/19/2018 at 11:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Oh I haven't invented it. It was here on the forums long before I even started visiting the forums, let alone join or contribute. Just ask @Free Northman Reborn 

Given that it is not actually common it is fair to say that it is wrong. Had you bothered to look into it you might have came to the conclusion rather than reading something you liked and deciding it was true. 

On 6/19/2018 at 11:58 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

As for the garrison, did he want a 10000 garrison when the highest we have seen for a single castle so far is 430 Dragonstone? Just wow!

I have no idea what argument you are trying to make here or what point you think you are replying to. I am going to assume that it is yet another cheap strawman argument. Well done with those. 

[Corvo the Crow]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So there is no mention of Varys saying that about House Caron or Nightsong. I thought it was strange that you didn't try to back this claim up with a quote like you usually do. 

I thought I did, thanks for reminding here it is. 

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Each lord had his own demands; this castle and that village, tracts of lands, a small river, a forest, the wardship of certain minors left fatherless by the battle. Fortunately, these fruits were plentiful, and there were orphans and castles for all. Varys had lists. Forty-seven lesser lordlings and six hundred nineteen knights had lost their lives beneath the fiery heart of Stannis and his Lord of Light, along with several thousand common men-at-arms. Traitors all, their heirs were disinherited, their lands and castles granted to those who had proved more loyal.

Care to tell where lords, petty lords and landed knights are? Why are they not being listed? Perhaps it is because they are included in the count?

Cheap Strawman arguments? That's rich, especially coming from you. Quotes I posted about Velaryon and Celtigar alone should have been enough but you just can't admit  you are mistaken.

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lol ,come on, you are better than this

 

I half expected you to say the same as the above two. 

 

Even great lord and lesser lord are "titles" used interchangably as seen in the quotes and yet you argue petty lords aren't lesser lords.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Lesser nobility is a description, such as cousins to the main branch would be lesser nobles or some Houses, such as the Westerlings in the West, are looked upon as lesser nobility. 

Now this is petty. The post just above yours has quotes for the same lords being called great lord, lesser lord and lesser bannermen. 

But let's say I concede which cousins that arrived with Wyman has their own banners in that half a hundred colors? Obviously they can't be not non-related bannermen, right? Or perhaps they are bannermen after all, you know the dozen petty lords.

Tell me by the way, are Goodbrothers petty lords? Seems to me they are dedpitr being very powerful.

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"I am to bring you to the keep," insisted young Gormond, from atop his horse.

He is afraid to dismount, lest he get his boots wet. "I have the god's work to do." Aeron Greyjoy was a prophet. He did not suffer petty lords ordering him about like some thrall.

"Gorold's had a bird," said the Sparr.

 

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I have no idea what argument you are trying to make here or what point you think you are replying to. I am going to assume that it is yet another cheap strawman argument. Well done with those. 

You said that 10000 was garrison. I pointed out it's not. It has nothing to do with the discussion other than that.

More on lesser lord/petty lord

 

He doesn't understand. "My lord," Sam said, "my f-f-f-father, Lord Randyll, he, he, he, he, he . . . the life of a maester is a life of servitude." He was babbling, he knew. "No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not bow and scrape to petty lords." If it is chains you want, come with me. "Jon, I cannot disobey my father."

 

Maesters serving petty lords.

 

As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?"

 

Not every lesser lord has a maester

 

Maester Aemon had sent a lot of birds . . . not to one king, but to four. Wildlings at the gate, the message ran. The realm in danger. Send all the help you can to Castle Black. Even as far as Oldtown and the Citadel the ravens flew, and to half a hundred mighty lords in their castles. The northern lords offered their best hope, so to them Aemon had sent two birds. To the Umbers and the Boltons, to Castle Cerwyn and Torrhen's Square, Karhold and Deepwood Motte, to Bear Island, Oldcastle, Widow's Watch, White Harbor, Barrowton, and the Rills, to the mountain fastnesses of the Liddles, the Burleys, the Norreys, the Harclays, and the Wulls, the black birds brought their plea. Wildlings at the gate. The north in danger. Come with all your strength.

 

But some mountain clans do.

 

"For a thousand years before the Conquest, we were the Marshalls of the Northmarch. A score of lesser lordlings did us fealty, and a hundred landed knights. We had four castles then, and watchtowers on the hills to warn of the coming of our enemies. Coldmoat was the greatest of our seats. Lord Perwyn Osgrey raised it. Perwyn the Proud, they called him.

Osgreys of hold. Compare to Manderlys. I'm sure there is no need for me to post it as well.

 

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I thought I did, thanks for reminding here it is. 

You still have not. There is zero mention of Foote, Caron or Nightsong there. And if you bothered to actually read the quote  you are using around the  quarter mark of ASOS you would actually understand why

Each lord had his own demands; this castle and that village, tracts of lands, a small river, a forest, the wardship of certain minors left fatherless by the battle. Fortunately, these fruits were plentiful, and there were orphans and castles for all.

The lords were making claims on the available lands that are left, the reason that Nightsong is not included is because it had already been given away in ACOK. Weeks, possibly months before this meeting took place. 

"It is His Grace's wish that these good men be rewarded for their valor. By his decree, Ser Philip shall henceforth be Lord Philip of House Foote, and to him shall go all the lands, rights, and incomes of House Caron."

They were no longer the Crown's to give away as they had been given away long before. 

This is the trouble with some of the conclusions you jump to in the bid to come up with a definitive answer, you ignore what is actually being said in the quotes you think are proving your point. 

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Cheap Strawman arguments?

That is what they seemed to be at that time, now that you have gone further into detail it simply appears you did not properly read what was being said or take into account that the crown can not divvy up lands it had already given away in the previous book. 

Quote

 

That's rich, especially coming from you.

Would you like to give some examples? 

Quote

 

Quotes I posted about Velaryon and Celtigar alone should have been enough but you just can't admit  you are mistaken.

I genuinely could not tell what you were getting at there. They both have their lands intact and both surrendered after the Blackwater. 

Whatever point you were trying to make was lost on me, which may be more my fault than yours, but along with your previous points I genuinely thought it was more strawman arguments. 

 

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I half expected you to say the same as the above two. 

eh?

Quote

 

Even great lord and lesser lord are "titles" used interchangably as seen in the quotes and yet you argue petty lords aren't lesser lords.

unless they are talking about an Overlord it appears it is a descriptive term rather than an actual title. 

Quote

 

Now this is petty. The post just above yours has quotes for the same lords being called great lord, lesser lord and lesser bannermen. 

it is not petty, it is pointing out an obvious difference. Lesser is pretty much a descriptive term, we have never seen it used in a title the same way we have seen petty lord in the appendix. 

Quote

But let's say I concede which cousins that arrived with Wyman has their own banners in that half a hundred colors? Obviously they can't be not non-related bannermen, right? Or perhaps they are bannermen after all, you know the dozen petty lords.

Perhaps they were, it was a descriptive term for all the nobles with Wyman who never get mentioned again at Winterfell. They were not individually named, nor do we know how many there were. The language was descriptive of the group as a whole. 

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Tell me by the way, are Goodbrothers petty lords? Seems to me they are dedpitr being very powerful.

Lord Gorold Goodbrother of hammerhorn certainly is as that is how he is referred to in the appendix of AFFC. The Goodbrothers of Shatterstone are mentioned in the appendix, but not as Lords, so I think not and we don't know enough about the other branches. 

I'd hazard a guess that like the other branches of Harlaw they are of a lower rank than the main House, but we really don't have enough information to give a definitive answer, 

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You said that 10000 was garrison.

When did I say that? Can you quote where you think I have said, as I'm pretty certain I have never claimed any castle would have a 10,000 garrison. 

 

Quote

 

I pointed out it's not. It has nothing to do with the discussion other than that.

More on lesser lord/petty lord

 

He doesn't understand. "My lord," Sam said, "my f-f-f-father, Lord Randyll, he, he, he, he, he . . . the life of a maester is a life of servitude." He was babbling, he knew. "No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not bow and scrape to petty lords." If it is chains you want, come with me. "Jon, I cannot disobey my father."

 

Maesters serving petty lords.

 

As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton's ear, Lady Dustin's mouth twisted in distaste. "If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?"

 

Not every lesser lord has a maester

 

Maester Aemon had sent a lot of birds . . . not to one king, but to four. Wildlings at the gate, the message ran. The realm in danger. Send all the help you can to Castle Black. Even as far as Oldtown and the Citadel the ravens flew, and to half a hundred mighty lords in their castles. The northern lords offered their best hope, so to them Aemon had sent two birds. To the Umbers and the Boltons, to Castle Cerwyn and Torrhen's Square, Karhold and Deepwood Motte, to Bear Island, Oldcastle, Widow's Watch, White Harbor, Barrowton, and the Rills, to the mountain fastnesses of the Liddles, the Burleys, the Norreys, the Harclays, and the Wulls, the black birds brought their plea. Wildlings at the gate. The north in danger. Come with all your strength.

 

But some mountain clans do.

 

"For a thousand years before the Conquest, we were the Marshalls of the Northmarch. A score of lesser lordlings did us fealty, and a hundred landed knights. We had four castles then, and watchtowers on the hills to warn of the coming of our enemies. Coldmoat was the greatest of our seats. Lord Perwyn Osgrey raised it. Perwyn the Proud, they called him.

Osgreys of hold. Compare to Manderlys. I'm sure there is no need for me to post it as well.

 

 

 

Sorry I have no idea what you mean by the above. Can you at least make clear what points you are trying to make as I don't want to come to the wrong conclusion and upset you.

[Corvo the Crow]

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

When did I say that? Can you quote where you think I have said, as I'm pretty certain I have never claimed any castle would have a 10,000 garrison. 

Quote

he does not bring his complete host because he wants a well guarded garrison, nothing to do with him wanting to maintain some ratio you have invented

This is what you said so I assumed it as such.

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

They were no longer the Crown's to give away as they had been given away long before. 

Yes it has happened long before, so it is no longer crowns to give but the point here is Varys' has lists, he is giving us how many died for Stannis and he doesn't discern lords as lord, great lord, lesser lord or petty lord and the knights as landed or not. He classes them all as lesser lord and knight. Among so many dead there's bound to be petty lords. It may even be that some classified as lesser lords are in fact landed knights. Catelyn listing templetons as lordlings while pointing out who married Royce-Stark daughters is proof of it.

 

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sorry I have no idea what you mean by the above. Can you at least make clear what points you are trying to make as I don't want to come to the wrong conclusion and upset you.

Osgrey: he suggest a very similar vassal structure to that of Manderlys, only difference is one uses lesser lord the other petty lord.

Maesters: Not every "lesser lord" has a maester and even some of the petty lords have theirs, though probably not all. The point is, it is used interchangebly. 

 

The overall point is, great lord, lord, lesser lord, lordling, petty lord; these are all used interchangebly to a great degree and even knight/lord when it comes to landed knights.

 

There is no clear structure for titles or even a clear structure of hieararchy as one moment you are independent and the next you are not just a vassal, but your liege is also vassal to another vassal, who is vassal to yet another. 

Sworn sword has the best example of it, Webbers are vassals to Rowan as a bunch of other lords and landed knights while inchfields are sworn to them. Since some hundred years later there are still inchfields they likely have some plot of land themselves. 

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This is what you said so I assumed it as such.

where is 10,000 mentioned in that post? Did you just make up that number and then decide to bring it up every single reply since?  

At no point have I claimed any garrison has 10,000 in it.

1 minute ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Yes it has happened long before, so it is no longer crowns to give but the point here is Varys' has lists,

he has lists for the lands that are too be given away in that meeting. Nightsong can not be given away in that meeting because it was given away in the previous book. Read your own quote, no fuck it I will break it down for you rather than waste 10 more back and forths with you on the matter

Each lord had his own demands; this castle and that village, tracts of lands, a small river, a forest, the wardship of certain minors left fatherless by the battle.

None of the Lords present can demand the Nightsong lands in this meeting around the quarter way mark of ASOS because the lands have already been given away. 

 

Fortunately, these fruits were plentiful, and there were orphans and castles for all.

 

 See, there are available castles, but people who had read the previous book know that Nightsong had already been given away

 

Varys had lists. 

 

Varys had lists of the available lands. Him including lands the Crown had already given away, such as Nightsong and Brightwater Keep would make zero sense in this discussion as they are no longer available. 

 

I'm not sure how clearer GRRM can be on the matter. 

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

where is 10,000 mentioned in that post? Did you just make up that number and then decide to bring it up every single reply since?  

At no point have I claimed any garrison has 10,000 in it.

he has lists for the lands that are too be given away in that meeting. Nightsong can not be given away in that meeting because it was given away in the previous book. Read your own quote, no fuck it I will break it down for you rather than waste 10 more back and forths with you on the matter

Each lord had his own demands; this castle and that village, tracts of lands, a small river, a forest, the wardship of certain minors left fatherless by the battle.

None of the Lords present can demand the Nightsong lands in this meeting around the quarter way mark of ASOS because the lands have already been given away. 

 

Fortunately, these fruits were plentiful, and there were orphans and castles for all.

 

 See, there are available castles, but people who had read the previous book know that Nightsong had already been given away

 

Varys had lists. 

 

Varys had lists of the available lands. Him including lands the Crown had already given away, such as Nightsong and Brightwater Keep would make zero sense in this discussion as they are no longer available. 

 

I'm not sure how clearer GRRM can be on the matter. 

 

 

Wow such attitude. 

Have you forgotten to add this part or left it on purpose as it doesn't suit your needs? I'll assume the former.

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Forty-seven lesser lordlings and six hundred nineteen knights had lost their lives beneath the fiery heart of Stannis and his Lord of Light, along with several thousand common men-at-arms. Traitors all, their heirs were disinherited, their lands and castles granted to those who had proved more loyal.

Per any chance the not-so-lesser lords have become alive again so they aren't included in the dead count just as the castles given weren't as you suggested?

Lord of Light does work miracles for his believers it seems. At least for the great lords. And petty lords. Maybe even landed knights, but a landed knight is still a knight so maybe not.

[Bernie Mac]

17 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Wow such attitude. 

cheers, but in fairness you started with the condescending when you commented 'just wow' in reference to a 10,000 garrison quote you imagined I made. 

17 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Have you forgotten to add this part or left it on purpose as it doesn't suit your needs? I'll assume the former.

how does that change what is being said? I actually thought I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but it appears I was wrong to do even that. 

 

Fortunately, these fruits were plentiful, and there were orphans and castles for all. Varys had lists. Forty-seven lesser lordlings and six hundred nineteen knights had lost their lives beneath the fiery heart of Stannis and his Lord of Light, along with several thousand common men-at-arms. Traitors all, their heirs were disinherited, their lands and castles granted to those who had proved more loyal.

 

Nightsong was not amongst those lands, it had already been given away weeks/months ago to someone who did not earn them through loyalty but volour. 

When the heralds had finished telling of each hero's deeds, he rose. "It is His Grace's wish that these good men be rewarded for their valor. By his decree, Ser Philip shall henceforth be Lord Philip of House Foote, and to him shall go all the lands, rights, and incomes of House Caron. 

How can Nightsong be on these lists when it already had a new lord?  Varys is reading the lists of the available lands for the Reach lords, Nightsong is not going to be on such lists as it had already been given away. This is not complicated, this is pretty straightforward. 

17 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Per any chance the not-so-lesser lords have become alive again so they aren't included in the dead count just as the castles given weren't as you suggested?

what? I have no idea what you are trying to say here. 

17 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Lord of Light does work miracles for his believers it seems. At least for the great lords. And petty lords. Maybe even landed knights, but a landed knight is still a knight so maybe not.

or here. 

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

what? I have no idea what you are trying to say here. 

or here.

 

That the Lord Caron is dead, along with a bunch of other landed characters whose names we know. 

We also know that Varys only tells us "forty seven lesser lordlings" died along with hundreds of knights and several thousand common men-at-arms. 

So then it is apparent that there's no distinction made between these lords, all are being called lesser lordlings.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

There is no difference between petty lord and lesser lord.  It simply depends on who is doing the describing. The evidence overwhelmingly supports the position that a petty lord is merely a description, not a title. And a petty lord would outrank a knightly House.

Here is a quote from George which one needs to carefully consider as it pertains to this discussion:

Question:

That's it of those I came up with, although the web page has spurred one more question from others. You didn't block the Houses Ryswell and Dustin in the North as dead, and I said as much, but given that Lord Dustin and Ser Mark Ryswell fought and died at the Tower of Joy ... Were they the last of their houses? I don't think so, but I suppose one can't be certain, especially as no Dustins and Ryswells appear in the novels (both in the text and the appendicies.) Then again, neither are the Burleys or Liddles (I think), and certainly not the Flints of Flints Finger or any of the lords of Skagos.

Answer:

Well, Robin Flint is one of Catelyn's companions when she rides to Bitterbridge, though I never say which branch he's from, I don't think. No, there are still Dustins and Ryswells in the north, and maybe even in Robb's army. I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not there.

The lords of Skagos, though... they are a special case. Skagos is a =real= backwater, with very little contact with the mainland. In theory, the island is part of the north and subject to Winterfell. In practice, they pretty much go their own way.

So, Martin is talking specifically about the Northern army in this case, and he states that there are dozens of minor lords and hundreds of knights in Robb's 20k men.  So who are these dozens of minor lords if not the petty lords such as the Stouts and Manderly's dozen lordly underlings?

Surely if any Lord in the North will have proper lordly underlings, it will be the wealthiest and most populous Northern House, the Manderlys. And yet he refers to all of his lesser vassals as petty lords. Which is clearly synonymous with minor/lesser lord. And clearly there are far more knights than minor lords, so minor lords are on a higher level than knights.

Also, this quote:

Question:

I am also a bit curious as to the social structure of westeros. I understand the seven high lords, and the slightly lower lords (ie. Boltons, Karstarks, Freys etc.). However, do these lords also have sub lords below them? Lords who maybe raise 10 or 20 men for the Karstarks?

Answer

Yes, it is a feudal system. The lords have vassals, the vassals have vassals, and sometimes the vassals of the vassals have vassals, down to the guy who can raise five friends.

So, again, the Northern Houses are at the heart of the question, and Martin responds that the lords have sub lords below them and sub lords have vassals below them, down to the man who can raise 5 friends. So Manderly's next level down is petty lord, of which he has only a dozen. And then you get landed knight, of which he has a hundred. Just like House Osgrey, in its glory era, where we read that:

"For a thousand years before the Conquest, we were the Marshalls of the Northmarch. A score of lesser lordlings did us fealty, and a hundred landed knights"

This is clearly the exact same setup as the Manderlys.

Petty lord = lesser/minor lord

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

That the Lord Caron is dead, along with a bunch of other landed characters whose names we know. 

Varys never mentions Caron, like you have been claiming for the last few pages. He has a list of the available lands of the nobles who have died, both Caron's and Florent's lands have already been given away in the previous book, there is zero reason for them to be on the list of available lands

 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We also know that Varys only tells us "forty seven lesser lordlings" died along with hundreds of knights and several thousand common men-at-arms. 

No, read it again. Directly before that he mentions the list, before he mentions the list we are told that each lord hadd their own demands of lists. This is a connected paragraph, the lords want lands and Varys has a list  of lands no longer with rulers that are now free to give out. Caron or Nightsong are not going to be on that list nor are any lords going to be demanding those lands as very publicly in the previous book it was announced that Foote would be getting those lands. 

How is this so hard for you to grasp? 

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So then it is apparent that there's no distinction made between these lords, all are being called lesser lordlings.

eh? how on earth do you work that one out? There is zero reason for Nightsong to be on the list or Caron to be brought up in this conversation between Varys and the Council on what lands they would be getting as their spoils of war as the land had already been given away weeks/months ago. 

[Corvo the Crow]

39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, read it again. Directly before that he mentions the list, before he mentions the list we are told that each lord hadd their own demands of lists. This is a connected paragraph, the lords want lands and Varys has a list  of lands no longer with rulers that are now free to give out. Caron or Nightsong are not going to be on that list nor are any lords going to be demanding those lands as very publicly in the previous book it was announced that Foote would be getting those lands. 

How is this so hard for you to grasp? 

Not as hard as it is for you, it would seem. Varys isn't listing how much land is available when giving us the figures. He is giving us numbers on ALL of the casualties sustained by Stannis' army. How many lords, how many knights, how many common soldiers. And in the part he gives the number of lords, he makes no distinction.

Or are you suggesting that several thousand commoners also had availabe land that was taken from them? Then please, by all means, excuse me of my lack of grasp. I have never thought that those several thousand men-at-arms would have lands to be taken since they were called, well, common men. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

14 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not as hard as it is for you, it would seem. Varys isn't listing how much land is available when giving us the figures. He is giving us numbers on ALL of the casualties sustained by Stannis' army. How many lords, how many knights, how many common soldiers. And in the part he gives the number of lords, he makes no distinction.

Or are you suggesting that several thousand commoners also had availabe land that was taken from them? Then please, by all means, excuse me of my lack of grasp. I have never thought that those several thousand men-at-arms would have lands to be taken since they were called, well, common men. 

Note that in the piece I quote above, Martin is asked about the lack of Dustins and Ryswells in Robb’s army and his response is that there are dozensof minor lords in Robb’s army and just because he does not name them all does not mean they are not there. So in this quote he is even referring to the Dustins and Ryswells as minor lords. Clearly the usage is fluid and it comes backto the fact that all lords who are not Lords Paramount have the same theoretical level. Of course, the comparative resources of the Hightowers will distinguish them from the Webbers or Osgreys or Stouts. But officially, they are all lords.

[Bernie Mac]

37 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not as hard as it is for you, it would seem.

How is it hard for me? the quote is clear, do we need to go over it yet again? 

37 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Varys isn't listing how much land is available when giving us the figures.

yeah, he is

Each lord had his own demands; this castle and that village, tracts of lands, a small river, a forest, the wardship of certain minors left fatherless by the battle. Fortunately, these fruits were plentiful, and there were orphans and castles for all. Varys had lists.

he has lists of the lands and wards available, that is what is on his lists. Caron has no wards and his lands are no longer available so why would he need to include him on the list? 

 

37 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

He is giving us numbers on ALL of the casualties sustained by Stannis' army.

Not once did he mention Caron like you claimed he did 3 pages back. the hoops you will jump through just so you won't admit that you made mistake when you wrongly claimed Varys mentioned him. How many more pages will this go on for I wonder? maybe we will see this thread get to 20 pages this week. 

 

go back to the original discussion, you claimed Varys mentioned Caron, at no point in that quote does he mention him. 

 

 

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not once did he mention Caron like you claimed he did 3 pages back. the hoops you will jump through just so you won't admit that you made mistake when you wrongly claimed Varys mentioned him. How many more pages will this go on for I wonder? maybe we will see this thread get to 20 pages this week. 

Me? Or you?

I have never claimed that Carons are explicitly told to be lesser lords. I meant that Varys' list hints at that. I may not have been clear enough the first time I told it, but  I've made it clear in the later posts.

Here let me try again:

 

1. Crown is handing out lands and orphans of the dead. Carons lands included.

2. Varys has lists of these valuables people want and they still haven't given. Caron lands no longer included.

3. End of list of valuables.

4. Varys gives the dead count of Stannis' army. NOT the dead count for the ones whose lands still haven't been given, but all the army. 

5. This dead count of the ENTIRE ARMY is divided into lesser lordlings, knights and commoners.

So clearly you can see that since this is not just a dead count of those lords whose lands are yet to be distributed, as in addition to lords not only knights who may very well be knighted, but also the commoners are  included, Carons are counted among those lesser lordlings.

Again, that dead count includes commoners so that portion is not a list of available land. Varys has lists on those but total dead count is irrelevant.

Dead count=/= list of valuables.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

he has lists of the lands and wards available, that is what is on his lists. Caron has no wards and his lands are no longer available so why would he need to include him on the list? 

1. Varys gives no names for any of the dead.

2. My question remains unanswered; Why does he also tell about the thousands of common dead?

[Universal Sword Donor]

I'm still chuckling about petty lords not being lords. 

I'm going to safely assume they are, indeed, lords until I see some evidence of them not having the right pit and gallows.

[Lord Varys]

There are only lords. Petty lords, lesser lords, greater lords, great lords - those are all meaningless terms, used in context to depict relative strength of weakness.

The lords paramount are different, of course, since they seem to hold special privileges and rights given to them by the Iron Throne. But a lord is a lord is a lord, never mind whether he is the Lord of Oldtown or the Lord of Sheep Shit.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There are only lords. Petty lords, lesser lords, greater lords, great lords - those are all meaningless terms, used in context to depict relative strength of weakness.

The lords paramount are different, of course, since they seem to hold special privileges and rights given to them by the Iron Throne. But a lord is a lord is a lord, never mind whether he is the Lord of Oldtown or the Lord of Sheep Shit.

Unless they are petty lords who are vassals to Manderly. Then they absolutely  cannot be lords, even though I just called them lords, since they are petty lords sworn to a higher vassal.

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Petty Lords