Men. Men. Men.

[Theda Baratheon]

55 minutes ago, Alarich II said:

The thing is, men don't talk about sensitive issues with others, regardless of sex or gender. And I find that in general, when they do, they tend talk to their girlfriends, wives, lovers, mothers, sisters, i.e. the women in their lives. So while I respect that many women might want to have that special safe space where they can discuss their womanly things without male interference, I don't think that this really works for us in the same way it does for women, simply because the group dynamics are different for us than for women.

I know - my whole point is that this is the reality and that it shouldnt always be up to the mothers and the girlfriends to lend sole emotional support. I would like a world where men actually could talk about sensitive topics with each other.

And I don' know why so many people like to talk about the different dynamics of men and women and say oh men just aren't like this when you'e ignoring how absolutely culturally specific that notion is and that, yes, there have been cultras in the past and probably are culture's now where men...do talk to one another...

[mankytoes]

18 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I don' want to segregate men and women and frankly I think that was v unfair of mankytoes to claim - I just want men to be able to talk about sensitive issues that affect them more and yes - women absolutely might be better at talki g about sensitive issues and empathy but I wish we could get to a point where men as a collective are good at this too and it has to start sometime 

I wasn't trying to be mean, to me "segregate" is the correct word to use when one group sticks to one space, and another sticks to another. I guess it has kind of dodgy connetations, you hear segregation and you think 50s America.

To the limited extent my ability to talk empathetically has developed, I think a lot of it is down to the women in my life. If this is a skill that, generally, women have, and men don't, don't we need to talk more to women to develop it, and thus be able to discuss things better with other men? I hope it's seen as a given that I'm speaking about talking to women who want to talk to us. I know some see it as "emotional labour", but I think a lot of women love it when guys open up (I do, once I can overcome my discomfort).

You are posting a lot in here, kind of dominating discussion in our safe space (JOKE).

A lot of people are talking about positive and negative masculinity. I do feel a lot of the time there's a lot of emphasis on "bad" masculinity, that there is more criticism of the bad guys than praise of the good guys. It can feel like anything you do wrong is jumped upon, while anything good is ignored, or you get asked "do you want a cookie?" (something I've noticed internet feminists say, I don't know where it came from).

With that in mind, here's another video from my boy over on Youtube, I put a couple of his up in the other thread-

 

[Darth Richard II]

Ha, weird, I just watched that film less than 24 hours ago.

[Darth Richard II]

Radnom aside @Theda Baratheon

Is that Luv from Blade Runner in your avatar pic?

[Theda Baratheon]

34 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Radnom aside @Theda Baratheon

Is that Luv from Blade Runner in your avatar pic?

Yes

[Darth Richard II]

2 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yes

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Yes

I somehow mistook her for Alison Hendrix!  

[Yukle]

@mankytoes

That video had a really nice message to it.

The only other reason I'm posting is to say that I have been reading through the thread; it has lots of lovely points to it.

And to all the men in my life, and the ones I've never met: lots of love to all!

[Elder Sister]

On 11/23/2017 at 1:22 PM, Eggegg said:

My point was that traditional masculinity ( strength, stoicism, protection, competitiveness and aggression) is seen as a problem in many ways, and has to be replaced by a more feminine version ( caring, sharing, in touch with your feelings, emotive) because yes as you say, for some people this results in a form of toxic masculinity that is quite unhelpful and damaging. But that isn't everyone, and for many men, traditional masculinity is a very positive thing. 

This whole thread is interesting to me, but this post above did sort of pique my interest.  I don't find stoicism, strength, protection, competitiveness, or even aggression as uniquely male traits.  Maybe it's because I've grown up in a place where all of the above (excepting aggression) are female traits.  I was raised by a group of women who didn't cry at funerals, protected their families at all costs, and are amazingly strong.  Maybe I'm an exception, but I don't find those as uniquely 'male' traits.

I do think that Darth Richard's take on traditional western masculinity sort of encapsulates the bigger problems we're seeing in society today.  There seems to be a sense of entitlement with some men, that does seem to be aggressive in nature when it comes to women.  What I find most interesting about what's happening is not that men have been preying on women who work for them/report to them/ are minors, but that women are actually speaking out about this, and that so many men who are observing these things, are insistent that it's just a small problem - a few bad apples, just a blip - not the norm.  I and other women know from our own experiences that this is not a 'blip' on the societal radar, but it's an actual fact of life.  You deal with the predators, because they're everywhere.  It's one of the first things we're taught as girls.  Who to watch out for, avoid these places/situations, stay safe.  So it's interesting to me; this assumption by some men that this is unusual.  Has this problem really been so invisible to most men?  Do they really not see what the women in their lives have been dealing with on a regular basis for like, forever?  

I'm actually happy that there is a whole generation of women who now feel comfortable speaking out, and are actually believed.  I was taught to keep my mouth shut and deal with it; predatory men were a fact of life, just like venomous snakes and mosquitoes.  I'm thrilled that these conversations are taking place, that men and women are discussing these things and being honest about what it means to them.

 

[mankytoes]

45 minutes ago, Elder Sister said:

I do think that Darth Richard's take on traditional western masculinity sort of encapsulates the bigger problems we're seeing in society today.  There seems to be a sense of entitlement with some men, that does seem to be aggressive in nature when it comes to women.  What I find most interesting about what's happening is not that men have been preying on women who work for them/report to them/ are minors, but that women are actually speaking out about this, and that so many men who are observing these things, are insistent that it's just a small problem - a few bad apples, just a blip - not the norm.  I and other women know from our own experiences that this is not a 'blip' on the societal radar, but it's an actual fact of life.  You deal with the predators, because they're everywhere.  It's one of the first things we're taught as girls.  Who to watch out for, avoid these places/situations, stay safe.  So it's interesting to me; this assumption by some men that this is unusual.  Has this problem really been so invisible to most men?  Do they really not see what the women in their lives have been dealing with on a regular basis for like, forever?  

I'm actually happy that there is a whole generation of women who now feel comfortable speaking out, and are actually believed.  I was taught to keep my mouth shut and deal with it; predatory men were a fact of life, just like venomous snakes and mosquitoes.  I'm thrilled that these conversations are taking place, that men and women are discussing these things and being honest about what it means to them.

I keep having the situation in real life where this isn't the case. I was at a party in London the other day, and again it was a woman talking about how the whole thing is overblown, how she's had her tits grabbed and it isn't a big deal, etc. I guess my experiences could just be ususual in this occasion, but this idea that there's a simple men v women difference on this issue hasn't seemed true in the media either.

There's an English political show called This Week, and they had a prominent female former politician, Edwina Currie, doing a piece saying flirting at work is fun and this is going too far. Maybe women just feel more able to speak publically about having this view?

I know I've said this several times, but this forum generally seems to have this neat division between the sexes on issues, that I just don't think exists in the wider world.

[King Ned Stark]

http://www.bcmj.org/articles/silent-epidemic-male-suicide

One thing that resonates with me from the article is how I don’t like asking for help, with anything really.

As a father of two young sons I have been paying closer attention to how society views males in an increasingly negative light.  I have tried to shield them from the harsh parenting I received (from my father), and have seen subtle differences in the past few years.  Within the last 2-3 years, both of my sons have come to me for advice on a kid bullying them.  My brothers and I would have never done that, even at six, we would have known to handle it ourself.

[Eggegg]

36 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I keep having the situation in real life where this isn't the case. I was at a party in London the other day, and again it was a woman talking about how the whole thing is overblown, how she's had her tits grabbed and it isn't a big deal, etc. I guess my experiences could just be ususual in this occasion, but this idea that there's a simple men v women difference on this issue hasn't seemed true in the media either.

There's an English political show called This Week, and they had a prominent female former politician, Edwina Currie, doing a piece saying flirting at work is fun and this is going too far. Maybe women just feel more able to speak publically about having this view?

I know I've said this several times, but this forum generally seems to have this neat division between the sexes on issues, that I just don't think exists in the wider world.

I'd agree with this, I do think this forum doesn't quite reflect my experiences or the experiences of people I've talked to in the real world. But it depends on the person, some of my female friends find Wolf whistling highly offensive and claim it's sexual harassment, others have no problem at all. 

Anyway, going back to a previous comment on 'male entitlememt' which is a term I really dislike. I feel like it's one of those terms made up to explain male behaviour from the perspective of 'the patriarchy', which doesn't sit with the everyday experience of most men.

I remember the Elliot Roger case where he killed a bunch of people and it was claimed it was due to his sense of male entitlement, when really he was simply mentally unwell and had serious social issues.

There is a problem I think that men are expected to be proactive and dominant in all matters of romance and sex and most men do not have the social skills to be able to do this smoothly and nobody tells them what they should do. So it comes off as fake confidence, entitlement or over stepping the mark.

Rejection is also a very diffiult thing to deal with, as most women never instigate romantic interactions they don't really tend to sympathise with men who get rejected, they only see it from their own point of view. Both sexes deal with rejection horribly most of the time, and there are a lot of men who deal badly with it especially. But I don't think it is to do with entitlement.

Entitlement for me is a misreading of mens motivations.

[Larry of the Lawn]

3 hours ago, Eggegg said:

I'd agree with this, I do think this forum doesn't quite reflect my experiences or the experiences of people I've talked to in the real world. But it depends on the person, some of my female friends find Wolf whistling highly offensive and claim it's sexual harassment, others have no problem at all. 

Anyway, going back to a previous comment on 'male entitlememt' which is a term I really dislike. I feel like it's one of those terms made up to explain male behaviour from the perspective of 'the patriarchy', which doesn't sit with the everyday experience of most men.

I remember the Elliot Roger case where he killed a bunch of people and it was claimed it was due to his sense of male entitlement, when really he was simply mentally unwell and had serious social issues.

There is a problem I think that men are expected to be proactive and dominant in all matters of romance and sex and most men do not have the social skills to be able to do this smoothly and nobody tells them what they should do. So it comes off as fake confidence, entitlement or over stepping the mark.

Rejection is also a very diffiult thing to deal with, as most women never instigate romantic interactions they don't really tend to sympathise with men who get rejected, they only see it from their own point of view. Both sexes deal with rejection horribly most of the time, and there are a lot of men who deal badly with it especially. But I don't think it is to do with entitlement.

Entitlement for me is a misreading of mens motivations.

This is like a really good example of male privilege.

 

4 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I keep having the situation in real life where this isn't the case. I was at a party in London the other day, and again it was a woman talking about how the whole thing is overblown, how she's had her tits grabbed and it isn't a big deal, etc. I guess my experiences could just be ususual in this occasion, but this idea that there's a simple men v women difference on this issue hasn't seemed true in the media either.

There's an English political show called This Week, and they had a prominent female former politician, Edwina Currie, doing a piece saying flirting at work is fun and this is going too far. Maybe women just feel more able to speak publically about having this view?

I know I've said this several times, but this forum generally seems to have this neat division between the sexes on issues, that I just don't think exists in the wider world.

So you know a couple of women who don't mind being harassed, and that's supposed to somehow balance out all the women who are saying they don't appreciate it, and the women on this board who are telling you this is something they've dealt with their entire lives and is a daily thing for them?  And then you wonder how some people can say men just generally aren't good listeners?  

 

[Eggegg]

7 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

This is like a really good example of male privilege 

In what way?

[mankytoes]

2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

This is like a really good example of male privilege.

 

So you know a couple of women who don't mind being harassed, and that's supposed to somehow balance out all the women who are saying they don't appreciate it, and the women on this board who are telling you this is something they've dealt with their entire lives and is a daily thing for them?  And then you wonder how some people can say men just generally aren't good listeners?  

I've noticed how being a good listener" really translates as "listen to people who agree with me".

I'm saying, in my overall experience, gender isn't that important of a factor in someone's view of sexual harassment. Or many things. People ignore the complexities when they don't suit them.

You're the one not listening, not listening to the women who aren't saying what you want to hear. If what you're saying reflected reality, women would vote Republican in the numbers black people do.

 

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, mankytoes said:

I've noticed how being a good listener" really translates as "listen to people who agree with me".

Not really. Of course, this is something that someone who isn't a good listener would think.

1 minute ago, mankytoes said:

I'm saying, in my overall experience, gender isn't that important of a factor in someone's view of sexual harassment. Or many things. People ignore the complexities when they don't suit them.

Okay, but you get that this isn't remotely the common viewpoint, right? And that your overall experience doesn't quite compare as a data point to 'most women surveyed'?

1 minute ago, mankytoes said:

You're the one not listening, not listening to the women who aren't saying what you want to hear. If what you're saying reflected reality, women would vote Republican in the numbers black people do.

Alternately, women vote Republican because they know that sexism and harassment aren't particularly partisan. 

[Eggegg]

1 hour ago, mankytoes said:

I've noticed how being a good listener" really translates as "listen to people who agree with me".

I'm saying, in my overall experience, gender isn't that important of a factor in someone's view of sexual harassment. Or many things. People ignore the complexities when they don't suit them.

You're the one not listening, not listening to the women who aren't saying what you want to hear. If what you're saying reflected reality, women would vote Republican in the numbers black people do.

 

I totally agree with you. 

[Elder Sister]

13 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I totally agree with you. 

I'm totally not surprised.  I do appreciate though, that you and mankytoes have sort of proved out what I was saying about the denial aspect of what's happening.  I saw the same thing with the '#metoo' movement.  You have thousands of women who are all saying the same thing, and one guy mentions the 2 or 3 women he's heard of, talked to, or seen interviewed on Fox News, so none of it is true, or it's highly fabricated.

 

[Eggegg]

21 minutes ago, Elder Sister said:

I'm totally not surprised.  I do appreciate though, that you and mankytoes have sort of proved out what I was saying about the denial aspect of what's happening.  I saw the same thing with the '#metoo' movement.  You have thousands of women who are all saying the same thing, and one guy mentions the 2 or 3 women he's heard of, talked to, or seen interviewed on Fox News, so none of it is true, or it's highly fabricated.

 

To be fair this is the men's thread. I was hoping to have conversations from mens perspectives, to give some insight into a man's point of view. So I'd rather you didnt put words into our mouths or make assumptions about what our thoughts are

[Week]

5 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

To be fair this is the men's thread. I was hoping to have conversations from mens perspectives, to give some insight into a man's point of view. So I'd rather you didnt put words into our mouths or make assumptions about what our thoughts are

You forgot the "No gurlz alowed" sign on the clubhouse.