Men. Men. Men.

[Eggegg]

1 minute ago, Week said:

Relevant to the context of the discussion.

You don't like it -- so I'll let you have your precious safe-space. My sincere apologies to my fellow down-trodden man. I hope you learn to feel empowered some day.

It actually wasn't relevant at all and I think you are aware of it. But I'm very happy you did it actually because it really shone a light on the way people respond in general to any mens issues. So thanks for that.

[mankytoes]

3 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

You should read bell hooks. One of the things her writings and scholarship have focused on was the lack of focus on race and class issues within the historic feminist conversation.  And I honestly don't think it really matters what a marginalized group focuses on - it will spark backlash.  

 

I'll have a look. Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of feminists have acknowledged this. Just being in a lower class environment, I can see how women around me don't connect to these feminists. 

[DanteGabriel]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Talking about how the “average man” feels powerless has very little to do with feminism or empowering women.  The “average man” is powerless due to the existing hierarchical structure of society, not because women are gaining more power than they had in the past.

When "the average man" felt powerless in Ye Goode Olde Days, he could beat his wife or fuck with a minority. At the very least, he was the sole earner or earned more money than his wife. Those outlets for his bruised fee-fees are less acceptable now (plenty of them still do it) or maybe his wife earns more, so now we have the crisis of masculinity.

[Eggegg]

9 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

When "the average man" felt powerless in Ye Goode Olde Days, he could beat his wife or fuck with a minority. At the very least, he was the sole earner or earned more money than his wife. Those outlets for his bruised fee-fees are less acceptable now (plenty of them still do it) or maybe his wife earns more, so now we have the crisis of masculinity.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

When "the average man" felt powerless in Ye Goode Olde Days, he could beat his wife or fuck with a minority. At the very least, he was the sole earner or earned more money than his wife. Those outlets for his bruised fee-fees are less acceptable now (plenty of them still do it) or maybe his wife earns more, so now we have the crisis of masculinity.

Yup, that's as crazy at is sounds.  My point is if these "average men" are blaming women for their perception of powerlessness they are really not understanding the society in which they exist.

[Eggegg]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yup, that's as crazy at is sounds.  My point is if these "average men" are blaming women for their perception of powerlessness they are really not understanding the society in which they exist.

There are a small amount of guys doing that admittedly, and nobody should listen to them. 

But if you don’t listen to the average guy, tell him his problems are irrelevant and tell him he’s too privileged and powerful then you just end up pushing guys away 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

There are a small amount of guys doing that admittedly, and nobody should listen to them. 

But if you don’t listen to the average guy, tell him his problems are irrelevant and tell him he’s too privileged and powerful then you just end up pushing guys away 

When the average guy says "Women, and feminism are why I'm powerless" I say, you are fundamentally incorrect.  That's not saying "Average man" is irrelevant.  That's saying the "Average man" who says such things is just... wrong.

 

[TerraPrime]

21 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I mean, you definitely do glorify murder in some senses, through some genres of music, film and television.

No, we don't glorify murder. We glorify violence. We condone murder done for righteous causes. There's a difference, however inconvenient it is for your argument to admit to. 

 

22 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Ok, that's partly true, it's usually performed with a good friend, I have no idea why that is relevant though.

It is relevant to show that seppuku is not the same as suicide. 

 

22 hours ago, mankytoes said:

I know, seppuku is a specific traditional act of ritual suicide, I didn't say seppuku was the Japanese word for suicide.

I pointed it out to alert you to the fact that there are different words for suicide and seppuku, to reinforce the point that the Japanese culture does not equate the two, as you argue that they do. They don't. 

 

22 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Maybe so, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a tradition of viewing suicide in a somewhat positive, respectable light, that you don't have in other countries.

One more time: the set of events that you call "suicide" is actually a composite of two things - seppuku and suicide. They are done for different reasons, and they are treated as two separate things. When you conflate them into one category, you end up drawing an incorrect conclusion. 

This doesn't mean that there are no cultural factors at play in explaining the higher suicide rate in Japan. But it does mean that the argument you're putting forth is not valid. You can incorrectly argue a valid point, after all. 

 

22 hours ago, mankytoes said:

"The cultural heritage of suicide as a noble tradition still has some resonance. While being investigated for an expenses scandal, Cabinet minister Toshikatsu Matsuoka took his life in 2007. The former governor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara, described him as a "true samurai" for preserving his honour."

This is an example showing that if someone takes their own life to redeem their errors, it's seen differently than as when someone takes their own life through depression or other factors. This example doesn't bolster your point - it reinforces mine. 

 

22 hours ago, mankytoes said:

You haven't offered any alternate reasons for the high sucide rate in Japan.

I don't need to know the geologic data of the moon to tell you that your hypothesis of the moon being made of cheese is wrong. 

 

22 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Can you imagine someone being described in similar terms for killing themselves in another country?

Ever heard of suicide bombing in the context of terrorism? How about the existence of Christian martyrs would chose death over renouncing their faith? Ever seen stories and movies depicting a soldier falling on a grenade to save his battalion? Watched any movies about the Holocaust where the parents sacrificed themselves to save their children? Read any popular fantasy book series where the mother throws herself in front of a killing curse to save her son? Came into contact with any religion where the savior figure walked to his own death carrying a wooden artifact made with two pieces of planks set at right angle to each other on his own back in order to redeem humanity?

No, I haven't either, and I can scarcely imagine the existence of such crazy things. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

There are a small amount of guys doing that admittedly, and nobody should listen to them. 

But if you don’t listen to the average guy, tell him his problems are irrelevant and tell him he’s too privileged and powerful then you just end up pushing guys away 

Or finally guy realizes his privilege and becomes Guy Who Just Started Paying Attention.  This idea that by talking about male privilege we're somehow encouraging toxic masculinity is bunk.  And there's a a difference between "your problems are irrelevant" and "you should be fired for masturbating at work".  

[King Ned Stark]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

When the average guy says "Women, and feminism are why I'm powerless" I say, you are fundamentally incorrect.  That's not saying "Average man" is irrelevant.  That's saying the "Average man" who says such things is just... wrong.

 

Doesn’t that swing both ways?  When women or minorities say they are powerless, them blaming the every man, or “average man”, is wrong as well, right? The overwhelmingly vast majority of average guys aren’t beating their wife or abusing minorities.  I have two bosses, neither of which are white guys; they are both grossly incompetent and selfish.  I don’t blame an entire gender or race or group for them, I just work for two knuckleheads.  I know that doesn’t really mesh with the narrative progressives are pushing, but it is what it is; unless progressives are claiming white guys are inherently worse or less human than everyone else on earth.

[Lily Valley]

36 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Or finally guy realizes his privilege and becomes Guy Who Just Started Paying Attention.  This idea that by talking about male privilege we're somehow encouraging toxic masculinity is bunk.  And there's a a difference between "your problems are irrelevant" and "you should be fired for masturbating at work".  

^^^ I have a lot of male friends for whom the term "male privelege" really stuck in their craw until they understood what it meant.  The realization process was not fun for me or for them, but once they understood, they became some of our staunchest allies.  Nothing about discussing male privilege is saying "men's problems are irrelevant".  It is a blanket term to identify an experience walking through life without having to constantly be aware of your gender.

@TerraPrime.  Your patience is showing.

Carry on nerds.  

[TerraPrime]

15 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

Doesn’t that swing both ways?  When women or minorities say they are powerless, them blaming the every man, or “average man”, is wrong as well, right? The overwhelmingly vast majority of average guys aren’t beating their wife or abusing minorities.  I have two bosses, neither of which are white guys; they are both grossly incompetent and selfish.  I don’t blame an entire gender or race or group for them, I just work for two knuckleheads.  I know that doesn’t really mesh with the narrative progressives are pushing, but it is what it is; unless progressives are claiming white guys are inherently worse or less human than everyone else on earth.

The continuing existence of an unjust system does not require actors determined to perpetuate injustice, although clearly, there are those who knowingly and actively seek to maintain the unjust system. Further, the beneficiary of an unjust system does not have to consent to having those benefits conferred to them, though some of the beneficiary do want to perpetuate the unjust system for their own benefits. 

 

Or: Critique of sexism is not condemnation of men. 

[Salome the Persian Witch]

Is it only me that finds the irony of @mankytoes whitesplaining Japanese culture on the 76th anniversary (to the day) of the Pearl Harbour attack delicious?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Just me?  Alrighty then. 

[Darth Richard II]

1 minute ago, Salome Sand Witch said:

Is it only me that finds the irony of @mankytoes whitesplaining Japanese culture on the 76th anniversary (to the day) of the Pearl Harbour attack delicious?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Just me?  Alrighty then. 

I don't know if delicious is the word I'd use, but it's funny in that if you don't laugh you'll cry sort of way.

[mankytoes]

4 hours ago, Salome Sand Witch said:

Is it only me that finds the irony of @mankytoes whitesplaining Japanese culture on the 76th anniversary (to the day) of the Pearl Harbour attack delicious?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Just me?  Alrighty then. 

Oh God, is whitesplaining a thing now? 

Lets leave this thread as one where we refute people's arguments, not judge based on their skin colour, ok? 

I've read a lot about Japan, and I respect their culture. Now you're saying we shouldn't talk about it because their skin colour is different. Fuck that. I've grown up around plenty of people who want everyone in their own little box because of the colour of their skin.   I'm not accepting that. 

And I'm English, so Pearl Harbour has no links to me.

But if someone doesn't refute any of my arguments, just digs at my skin colour, I guess that's a sign they haven't got much of a response. People on here can be like a little gang sometimes. You know that the argument that "seppuku isnt suicide" is bollocks as much as I do. It's a form of suicide. But you won't stand up against your mate, or a moderator. Feels like being back at school on here sometimes.

[polishgenius]

Yeah, mankytoes might be wrong, but let's not make every intsance of 'being wrong' fucking 'somethingsplaining' now, yeah?


Also I'm not really sure why Pearl Harbour comes into tihs. You make that link as if it was some shining example of important Japanese culture, rather than possibly the stupidest military decision any country has ever made.

[Eggegg]

4 hours ago, Salome Sand Witch said:

Is it only me that finds the irony of @mankytoes whitesplaining Japanese culture on the 76th anniversary (to the day) of the Pearl Harbour attack delicious?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Just me?  Alrighty then. 

All I'm seeing is someone using the term 'Whitesplaining' without irony. 

11 hours ago, TerraPrime said:

The continuing existence of an unjust system does not require actors determined to perpetuate injustice, although clearly, there are those who knowingly and actively seek to maintain the unjust system. Further, the beneficiary of an unjust system does not have to consent to having those benefits conferred to them, though some of the beneficiary do want to perpetuate the unjust system for their own benefits. 

 

Or: Critique of sexism is not condemnation of men. 

The point was that men don't feel like they are benefiting from the unjust system any more than women are. By using terms like Male Privilege and pushing a narrative that mens lives are simply easier than women's you end up turning off a whole generation of people from those arguments. 

If someone wants to discuss how male rates of suicide far exceed those of women, or how males are far more likely to be victims of violent crime, or how how 92% of fatalities from workplace accidents are men, and in general have shorter lives than women,  then the appropriate response is to try and understand why those things are happening and look to do something about it. The inappropriate response is to Week did upthread and to shout it down by talking about the small minority of men in top level CEO positions, as if that means all mens problems are irrelevant. 

This shouldn't be about who's team are you on, I think everyone is wanting the same outcomes.

[mormont]

Yes, whitesplaining is a thing and it has been for years. mankytoes is giving a classic example of it.

OK, he's read about seppuku, but what that normally means is we, as outsiders, have our own understanding derived mostly from media created by or for other outsiders. It's mostly third hand, second hand at best. If we really respect that culture, we need to respect our inherent distance from it. It's not that we shouldn't talk about it: it's that when we do so, we must remember that our understanding is inevitably flawed.

The fact that Terra is a moderator has nothing to do with anything. Moderators are allowed to have opinions and people are allowed to disagree with them or even, yes, agree with them, on their own merits.

[mankytoes]

57 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah, mankytoes might be wrong, but let's not make every intsance of 'being wrong' fucking 'somethingsplaining' now, yeah?


Also I'm not really sure why Pearl Harbour comes into tihs. You make that link as if it was some shining example of important Japanese culture, rather than possibly the stupidest military decision any country has ever made.

Cheers, I do feel a bit ganged up on. I don't care whether people agree or disagree, but it's nice when the argument isn't purely ad hominem.

Yeah, kind of ironic when they're calling me ignorant about Japanese history. It's not going to be an anniversary they'll celebrate. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've read books on Japan, been to exhibitions, etc (the Japanese section in the British museum is great). And I don't just mean manga. Though I have read manga.

Anyways, this is supposed to be about men, and Japanese culture is a good one to look at, because it's often cited as scoring badly on gender equality. The birthrate is really low, even by developed country standards, and I think how fixed gender roles are affects this. 

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Yes, whitesplaining is a thing and it has been for years. mankytoes is giving a classic example of it.

OK, he's read about seppuku, but what that normally means is we, as outsiders, have our own understanding derived mostly from media created by or for other outsiders. It's mostly third hand, second hand at best. If we really respect that culture, we need to respect our inherent distance from it. It's not that we shouldn't talk about it: it's that when we do so, we must remember that our understanding is inevitably flawed.

The fact that Terra is a moderator has nothing to do with anything. Moderators are allowed to have opinions and people are allowed to disagree with them or even, yes, agree with them, on their own merits.

I'm not saying my knowledge isn't at all flawed, but I've read books on Japanese history, written by Japanese people, that extensively discuss seppuku. I have the information to discuss it, and saying I don't because of my skin colour just sounds racist. The opinion I gave has been given by many Japanese people. Honestly, when it comes to Japan, it's usually white people getting offended on their behalf, and that's pretty patronising. Japanese people I've met love discussing their culture- and yes, they've corrected me and educated me on aspects. They have never suggested I should back off because of my skin colour.

People subconsciously treat anyone in any form of authority position differently. Honestly, I think their tone was inappropriate for a moderator. It was overly confrontational, and I think that is influencing others. If you read through this thread, people (one person in particular) seem to be coming in just to troll. 

Sadly, I'm not sure this forum is capable of this kind of discussion, I've tried to talk about Terry Crews and sexual allegations, but no one seems to care.